.H. Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 This is the perpetual thread devoted to the works of R. Scott Bakker, primarily the books in The Second Apocalypse series, the first novel is The Darkness that Comes Before, the seventh novel will be published on July 4, 2017 and is The Unholy Consult. It is currently available for preorder. This thread is for the series through The Great Ordeal and contains spoilers through that novel. The series is called The Second Apocalypse and is currently comprised of two sub-series, a trilogy and a quartet. Potentially, there will be a third series, although the author has stated that the quartet completes his original vision for the story. The first trilogy of books is subtitled The Prince of Nothing these three books are: The Darkness that Comes Before The Warrior Prophet The Thousandfold Thought The second quartet of books is subtitled The Aspect Emperor, these four books are: The Judging Eye The White-Luck Warrior The Great Ordeal The Unholy Consult (2017). The Unholy Consult will also include an expanded Appendix/Encyclopedic Glossary. The original Glossary exists currently only at the end of the third book, The Thousandfold Thought. Additionally, Bakker has published three short stories, The False Sun and The Four Revelations of Cinial'jin on Bakker's Blog Three Pound Brain and The Knife of Many Hands, which is available for purchase. This thread contains spoilers for these publications. The False Sun is the most discussed work of these three shorts. Since Bakker's writing uses layers of revelation, newcomers are strongly advised to finish the books before coming here; otherwise the spoilers will rot your soul. Eternally. Of potential interest, Bakker did stop by the board shortly after the release of The Great Ordeal and did answer several questions. That discussion can be found here.. Most denizens of this thread have also read Bakker's non-fantasy novels Neuropath and Disciple of the Dog, but the spoiler policy is unclear. You are advised to hide crucial plot points in those novels. Hat tip to Happy Ent for the intro to the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.H. Posted February 28, 2017 Author Share Posted February 28, 2017 Thread name taken from the Algorithic Eärwa presentation on YouTube. 12 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said: I disagree @.H., it does matter if the Empire falls. We learn that whatever comes about of the GO it's holy. There are several references to this. Why would Kellhus want to make a world were damnation doesn't exist for there to be nothing to come back to? Stopping Fayanal, dispatching Demon-Malowebi is proof of this. So the people having something to return to and be at peace. But Koringhus already taught us that loss and suffering are holy. Take this part from Mimara, in an earlier Ishüal chapter: Quote The Holy cares nothing for the designs of Men. And their appetites, it denies outright. The Holy, at all turns, demand the sacrifice of mortal projects, the carrying of burdens that slow, even kill. The Holy was the path of detours, even dead ends. The road that punished for following. Sounds Ordeal-like to me. This is why the Ordeal is holy, not because it is an unbridled success, but precisely because it is a suffering factory, a dead end. The Empire is a meaningless mortal project, which is part of why Kellhus cuts off contact with it. They march not for the Empire, but for Salvation. The Ordeal isn't about achieving victory, it's about experiencing loss and forfeiting life. Zëum is the last bastion of the old ways, this is why it must go, because a new time is going to start and with it a new way of thinking. Zëum isn't and still wouldn't be a military threat to the Three Seas, so it's removal is irrelevant. Except it is a threat, because post-Second Apocalypse there will be a new order of meaning, one that isn't compatible with the old ways of thinking. (Coped over my last post from the old thread. Wanted to make sure we didn't get locked with no new thread.) All caught up. What a ride, I'm already gnawing at my wrist for TUC. Are there any major theories as to what the Nail of Heaven actually is? Prevailing ideas were along the lines of a wormhole, a geostationary satellite, a supernova where the Inchoroi fled from, and possibly some other things I have forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Nail of heaven: Heat vent for a Matrioshka Brain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Inchoroi Wormhole, mothership and satellite were the popular ones. It seems to be something that is at precisely the rotational North Pole, which must be significant. Really hard to hang a satellite there, so maybe militates to something far away from Earwa like a possible wormhole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Ah. Hadn't seen the new thread open up and I responded in the other. My mistake. Continue on... I'm fascinated by the Ordeal as a means to make Holy conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 If suffering makes holy, and humans worship suffering then... Quote “I’m an Old Name,” the tiny face said. “Even wearing this shell, I could show you the Agonies, Mandate fool.” “Wuh . . .” Inrau swallowed. Sobbed. “Why?” Again the thin, tiny smile. “You worship suffering. Why do you think?” Is aurang offering salvation? are chorae a scourge crafted to induce suffering on the sorcerer caste and thus offer salvation eventually? a cure for damnation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 @.H. It occurs to me that sending Malowebi to Zeum on an assignation mission works equally well as a means to secure the future of the Monmen empire. He is cutting off the head of its biggest threat. So it think we are left in an amiguous situation still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 7 hours ago, .H. said: Thread name taken from the Algorithic Eärwa presentation on YouTube. But Koringhus already taught us that loss and suffering are holy. Take this part from Mimara, in an earlier Ishüal chapter: Sounds Ordeal-like to me. This is why the Ordeal is holy, not because it is an unbridled success, but precisely because it is a suffering factory, a dead end. The Empire is a meaningless mortal project, which is part of why Kellhus cuts off contact with it. They march not for the Empire, but for Salvation. The Ordeal isn't about achieving victory, it's about experiencing loss and forfeiting life. Zëum is the last bastion of the old ways, this is why it must go, because a new time is going to start and with it a new way of thinking. Zëum isn't and still wouldn't be a military threat to the Three Seas, so it's removal is irrelevant. Except it is a threat, because post-Second Apocalypse there will be a new order of meaning, one that isn't compatible with the old ways of thinking. (Coped over my last post from the old thread. Wanted to make sure we didn't get locked with no Great point. I wonder if all the suffering and loss the GO endures will make them useless to the Gods because they are holy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Hypothesis: Suffering is holy because it makes a sort of topoi of the person and allows the Outside to come into that person Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 30 minutes ago, unJon said: Hypothesis: Suffering is holy because it makes a sort of topoi of the person and allows the Outside to come into that person Counterargument: the Outside coming into a person is vague (we have entities coming from the Outside into people, but not the actual place) and there is very little 'good' ever seen from the Outside. Other counterargument: Yatwer and her followers should be the most holy of everyone - and they are not, per Psatma's notion of her serving at the hand of Yatwer when she dies as an honored guest. Her suffering does not let her escape damnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Third counterargument: suffering did not save Saubon from being damned at the end, or at least appearing to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 1 hour ago, Kalbear said: Counterargument: the Outside coming into a person is vague (we have entities coming from the Outside into people, but not the actual place) and there is very little 'good' ever seen from the Outside. Other counterargument: Yatwer and her followers should be the most holy of everyone - and they are not, per Psatma's notion of her serving at the hand of Yatwer when she dies as an honored guest. Her suffering does not let her escape damnation. First is a fair critique. But I'm assuming both the Hundred and Ciphrang and the Zero God are from the Outside as far as Earwa is concerned maybe that's a faulty assumption Second is a counter argument about suffering not leading to being holy at all. But that's contrary to Koringhus. 1 hour ago, Kalbear said: Third counterargument: suffering did not save Saubon from being damned at the end, or at least appearing to be. I'm not sure how much Saubon suffered. He seemed to be thriving and in his element in TGO. Pride until the end. Following Kel was right for him because Kel was the strongest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Perhaps suffering is holy because holy is shit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 2 hours ago, Callan S. said: Perhaps suffering is holy because holy is shit? Name that quote! Who said: Quote Few people are inclined to root for losers, and a good many are inclined to confuse rooting for losers with rooting for *losing.* If holy is shit as you say, then holy is such a loser, who could root for holy if it's just shitty losing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 I'd say that the Zero God is not involved with the Outside at all. More related to Earwa in and of itself. A "treehugger" type thing. At one with everything, ya know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 1 hour ago, lokisnow said: If holy is shit as you say, then holy is such a loser, who could root for holy if it's just shitty losing? 'Holy' is a person now? May as well root for cancer. On other matters, speaking of Saubon, has anyone gone back and looked at the passage in the previous books where he sees himself on the plains of Mengedda (I think it was)? Any talk about the time travel thing been happening? If anyone with the power of kindle could quote the passage, it'd be real neat and appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 @Callan S., Saubon at Mengedda By the God, his fury felt so empty, so frail against the earth! He reached out with his bare left hand and grabbed another hand—cold, heavily callused, leathery fingers and glass nails. A dead hand. He looked up across the matted grasses and stared at the dead man’s face. An Inrithi. The features were flattened against the ground and partly sheathed in blood. The man had lost his helm, and sandy-blond hair jutted from his mail hood. The coif had fallen aside, pressed against his bottom lip. He seemed so heavy, so stationary—like more ground … A nightmarish moment of recognition, too surreal to be terrifying. It was his face! His own hand he held! He tried to scream. Nothing. But there was the thunder of heavier hooves, shouts in familiar tongues. Saubon let slip the cold fingers, struggled to his hands and knees. Concerned voices. From nowhere it seemed, arms were hoisting him to his feet. He stared numbly at the bare turf, at the site where a moment before his corpse had been … This ground … This ground is cursed! “Here, take my arm,” the voice was fatherly, as though to a son who’d just learned a hard lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.H. Posted March 1, 2017 Author Share Posted March 1, 2017 11 hours ago, lokisnow said: If suffering makes holy, and humans worship suffering then... Is aurang offering salvation? are chorae a scourge crafted to induce suffering on the sorcerer caste and thus offer salvation eventually? a cure for damnation? Well, yes, because in a manner of speaking, the opposite of damnation is salvation. Recall what Shaeönanra says in Akka's dream of Nau-Cayûti: Quote They ascended what Siqu called the Abskinis, the Groundless Grave … “The Iyiskû …” “They made this …” “To be their …” “Sssshurrogate world …” The vast well that plumbed Golgotterath’s Upright Horn. “Now … now …” “It belongs to me …” They climbed to the world’s most wicked summit, where none but the dead and the damned descended. “The very …” “Stronghold …” “Of ssssalvation!” It's always been the case that the Inchoroi have something of a noble aim, but their means are just the worst. 10 hours ago, unJon said: @.H. It occurs to me that sending Malowebi to Zeum on an assignation mission works equally well as a means to secure the future of the Monmen empire. He is cutting off the head of its biggest threat. So it think we are left in an amiguous situation still. That's true, but there were no armies lining up to conquer the Empire, really. The threat level was seemingly small, by my estimation. Yet, it could be a part of it. I still feel it has more to do with an ending of the old ways, starting with the old dynasty, hence why Malowebi is sent to "end the line of Nganka’kull" not ruin Zëum in it's entirety. But yeah, still ambiguous. Porque no los dos, perhaps? 10 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said: Great point. I wonder if all the suffering and loss the GO endures will make them useless to the Gods because they are holy? I guess maybe it depends on when they die? Pre-whatever-the-hell Kellhus is doing, or post. I'm pretty sure those dying along the way are damned. But so is almost everyone on Eärwa. 8 hours ago, unJon said: I'm not sure how much Saubon suffered. He seemed to be thriving and in his element in TGO. Pride until the end. Following Kel was right for him because Kel was the strongest. He suffered, in a vague physical way, but he had no loss. In fact, he suffered in the name of winning. I think that's why he'd still be damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Yeah, I think that's another key. Suffering isn't necessarily holy; surrender is supposed to be, and not surrender of things or value, surrender of self. Psatma surrenders and considers it holy, but she still sees herself as sitting next to Yatwer, she sees her self, and sees others like Meppa being treated like playthings. It is that viewpoint - that other people are different from yourself, that you are separate, unique, independent - that is the part that leads to damnation. It is only through embracing that everyone is everything that you can be saved through the Zero-God. But suffering by itself for the sake of suffering? Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.H. Posted March 1, 2017 Author Share Posted March 1, 2017 10 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Yeah, I think that's another key. Suffering isn't necessarily holy; surrender is supposed to be, and not surrender of things or value, surrender of self. Psatma surrenders and considers it holy, but she still sees herself as sitting next to Yatwer, she sees her self, and sees others like Meppa being treated like playthings. It is that viewpoint - that other people are different from yourself, that you are separate, unique, independent - that is the part that leads to damnation. It is only through embracing that everyone is everything that you can be saved through the Zero-God. But suffering by itself for the sake of suffering? Nope. It could be then, that loss and suffering can be holy because they reduce? If we are looking to approach Zero, we must suffer subtraction until we are there. Interesting parallel in the vein, Koringhus starts with 100 stones, is reduced to 1, then to zero and so joins Zero. A path of forking branches, reduced to one then to Zero( the path(s) collapsed). Saubon's suffering elevated him, in stature and prestige, plus in worldly power. That is not going from one to zero, that is going from one to two, ergo not holy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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