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How did Cersei get Jamie in the KG


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On 9.3.2017 at 7:32 AM, SFDanny said:

(...) edit: There is one more thing about Cersei's plotting that I think should be said concerning Jaime. Not that I think for one minute that Cersei orchestrated this through her manipulation of Aerys and Varys, but her motive for participating in this plan may not be what we are told. We are told it is so the twins can be together again, but what if Cersei actually sees the likely consequences of Jaime becoming a member of the Kingsguard. (...) She sleeps with Jaime to rob him of his birthright. Just a thought.

That's exactly how I feel about this. When Jaime proves to be of no use to her without a swordhand and without any notion to kill Tyrion in her stead, she brags about a thousand times she had lied to Jaime. Sounds as if their whole relationship is based on a lie on her part and Jaime acts on that instantly. Three times "I love you" in her letter is not changing anything, since he already knows

"She did not come to him, however. She has never come to me, he thought. She has always waited, letting me come to her. She gives, but I must ask."

when he returns to Kings Landing in ASoS, which stands in stark contrast to that sole night where she makes him join the Kingsguard:

"He remembered that night as if it were yesterday. They spent it in an old inn on Eel Alley, well away from watchful eyes. Cersei had come to him dressed as a simple serving wench, which somehow excited him all the more. Jaime had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again."

... even beeing kept from drowning in Harrenhal by another "wench" leaves Jaime noticing "gentler than Cersei".

Let's translate "passion" for Jaime into "desperation" for Cersei for the moment. What could have made Cersei that desperate? She was in love with Rhaegar since a little girl, when her father spoke with her about his plan to have her marry the prince one day. Instead Elia became princess, after Tywin's offer was turned down by Aerys and after Tywin turned down the Dornish offer, waiting, waiting... When Tywin then made preparations for a marriage between Jaime and Lysa, it might have been a sign for Cersei that her father lost faith in her ability to win her prince over. Soon the whole realm drowns in chaos because of Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna and a marriage with the second son of a king still sitting the throne wouldn't bring Cercei any nearer towards her prophecy.
We know for sure that Cersei sees herself as Tywin's true and only son, but none of her POVs so far gave away her love for Jaime. Teenage Jaime had never shown much interest in something other than knighthood - and not on Lysa's behalf only. His interest in sex comes as a parallel to swordplay ("with death balanced on every stroke" = danger to get caught). Cersei shares that insight with Sansa, calling her sex a weapon. But when had she really fought with it? Robert was an arranged marriage so she wouldn't have to win or lose anything. Lancel had wanted her, the same with Kettleback. Jaime, in her eyes a big gallant fool, wanted to win glory, but would have to spent his life as bodyguard instead. The way I see it, Cersei didn't use her weapon as an act of love for her brother, but to stay number one for her father (similiar to Brienne's matter). Lancel's case showed us, that living a life of faith doesn't affect marriage. As Jaime seeks glory only joining the Kingsguard was a sure guess to become the one, having to be betrothed to secure Casterly Rock.

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Cersei most definitely never had sex with Aerys, nor was she, personally, the instigator of the Kingsguard idea on Aerys' part. We are talking about the years 280-81 AC here, post-Duskendale when Aerys II was a filthy, unkempt madman who only met with his Hand in the presence of all seven knights of the Kingsguard. That means Aerys did not exactly participate in the social life at his own court in those days. He might have met with his own pets but certainly not with members of Lord Tywin's family or retinue. They were at court, too, but not in his circles.

It is out of the question that Aerys would ever have had a private audience with Lord Tywin's daughter (or Lord Tywin's brother, his cook, groom, or dog) at that point in time, nor is it very likely that Cersei would have retained any passion for Rhaegar (or people looking like him) if she had ever been forced to (intimately) interact with his disgusting father.

If there was some sort of plot then it was most likely instigated by Varys. We learn in ACoK that Cersei long believed Varys was her only friend at court when she first came there and she did first come there in the last years of Aerys' reign. Varys could have planted the idea of a Kingsguard Jaime into Aerys' head and he could have planted the idea in Cersei's head, too. 

That Aerys came up with such a ridiculous idea all by himself isn't very likely. Jaime wasn't at court so Aerys had little reason to think about the man. Only a fool would think that the son of a man you consider an enemy/danger would make a good bodyguard, suggesting that somebody sold Aerys the idea a certain way - playing the 'Tywin humiliation' card and carefully avoiding the topic of Jaime's loyalty to his father. That whole thing crossed Aerys' mind only after Jaime finally was his Kingsguard, suggesting that he never really thought about that all that much.

The fact that the whole thing went through anyway when Jaime (heir to Casterly Rock), Tywin (father of Jaime who was still in his minority) and Aerys had no great reason to consider the whole thing a great idea suggests that somebody oiled the machine to make it happen anyway.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei most definitely never had sex with Aerys, nor was she, personally, the instigator of the Kingsguard idea on Aerys' part. We are talking about the years 280-81 AC here, post-Duskendale when Aerys II was a filthy, unkempt madman who only met with his Hand in the presence of all seven knights of the Kingsguard. That means Aerys did not exactly participate in the social life at his own court in those days. He might have met with his own pets but certainly not with members of Lord Tywin's family or retinue. They were at court, too, but not in his circles.

It is out of the question that Aerys would ever have had a private audience with Lord Tywin's daughter (or Lord Tywin's brother, his cook, groom, or dog) at that point in time, nor is it very likely that Cersei would have retained any passion for Rhaegar (or people looking like him) if she had ever been forced to (intimately) interact with his disgusting father.

If there was some sort of plot then it was most likely instigated by Varys. We learn in ACoK that Cersei long believed Varys was her only friend at court when she first came there and she did first come there in the last years of Aerys' reign. Varys could have planted the idea of a Kingsguard Jaime into Aerys' head and he could have planted the idea in Cersei's head, too. 

That Aerys came up with such a ridiculous idea all by himself isn't very likely. Jaime wasn't at court so Aerys had little reason to think about the man. Only a fool would think that the son of a man you consider an enemy/danger would make a good bodyguard, suggesting that somebody sold Aerys the idea a certain way - playing the 'Tywin humiliation' card and carefully avoiding the topic of Jaime's loyalty to his father. That whole thing crossed Aerys' mind only after Jaime finally was his Kingsguard, suggesting that he never really thought about that all that much.

The fact that the whole thing went through anyway when Jaime (heir to Casterly Rock), Tywin (father of Jaime who was still in his minority) and Aerys had no great reason to consider the whole thing a great idea suggests that somebody oiled the machine to make it happen anyway.

yea, you really need to keep Aerys state in mind when Cersei was at court.  

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On 3/9/2017 at 1:32 AM, SFDanny said:

How do you jump to that amazing conclusion? Tywin resigns as hand when Jaime is named to the Kingsguard. The conclusion that is inescapable is that Tywin does so because Aerys took his son and heir away, not that Aerys slept with Cersei. Again we have zero evidence this happened.

I doubt Cersei and Aerys even talked about the subject. This smells of Varys's work, and his plan, and his manipulation. Varys is the puppet master behind the throne, or so he thinks he is until Aerys lets Tywin in the gates, but Cersei's master plan up to this point has been to bat her eyes at Rhaegar and think that clever. She isn't clever enough to come up with the plan -which backfires to her understanding of it when she is taken away by Tywin - and there is no evidence she has the influence on anyone to get the plan in motion. Varys and Aerys have every reason to want this to work, including forcing Tywin to resign and go back to Casterlly Rock. They have Jaime as a hostage, and don't need Cersei for anything once she has convinced Jaime to accept the appointment. For the King and Varys it is a master bit of intrigue. For Cersei it is stupidity if she really wants to bring Jaime close to her. She's just a arrogant little spoiled girl who thinks herself clever and is used by people with much, much more experience in the game.

edit: There is one more thing about Cersei's plotting that I think should be said concerning Jaime. Not that I think for one minute that Cersei orchestrated this through her manipulation of Aerys and Varys, but her motive for participating in this plan may not be what we are told. We are told it is so the twins can be together again, but what if Cersei actually sees the likely consequences of Jaime becoming a member of the Kingsguard. That is, what if she is either smart enough to figure it out on her own, or Varys tells her, that it will result in the end of Tywin's marriage plans for Jaime, the end of Tywin's tenure as Hand, and the removal of Tywin and Cersei from King's Landing and the separation of them from Jaime. Suppose she knows this. Then why would she go through with her role in the plot?

Because when Jaime joins the Kingsguard, she knows, because of her father's feelings towards Tyrion, that she is likely the next Lady of Casterly Rock. Her father's chosen heir. That would put her actions in a interesting twist. She sleeps with Jaime to rob him of his birthright. Just a thought.

I think it quite possible you are right that it was not Cersei's idea for Jaime to join the KG.  

But she thinks it was.  And she claims to have arranged it.  I doubt she believes that at 15 she convinced Aerys to do it just because it was a good idea.  She thinks she arranged it because she thinks she manipulated Aerys into doing what she wanted him to do -- by sleeping with him.

And Aerys got to humiliate Tywin not just by taking away his heir, but by sleeping with Cersei.  Sure, one or other reason may have been sufficient to cause Tywin to resign and return to CR, but that does not mean that both did not happen.  

It is no leap of logic to suggest that Cersei and Aerys behaved in this matter precisely the way they behaved many other times in the books.

Finally, if you are right that Cersei believed that by getting Jaime to join the KG she was stealing Jaime's birthright for herself, she would need to be sure that Tyrion would not become Tywin's heir.  We know she did not discuss it with Tywin -- he was surprised at Jaime joined the KG.  The only other person who could give her that guarantee was Aerys.  Perhaps as pillow talk.

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57 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

It is no leap of logic to suggest that Cersei and Aerys behaved in this matter precisely the way they behaved many other times in the books.

It is not a leap of logic to suggest this may have happened, even with nothing in terms of evidence that it did. It is to say that the conclusion is "unescapable" that it did. The evidence points to it not happening.

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On 3/9/2017 at 0:28 PM, Westerosi Coast Gangster said:

Cersei arranges for Bronn to Mary Lollys Stoke worth, the younger sister. only if the Lady Stoke worth dies would Lollys become lady, and Bronn Lord. But Lady Stokeworth mysteriously breaks her hip in a riding accident, so Bronns ascension seems likely.

We actually don't know that. Tyrion thinks it but I think it was Baelish who set this up and Bronn works for Baelish. Tyrion just always assume bad things happen from his sister.

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22 hours ago, SFDanny said:

It is not a leap of logic to suggest this may have happened, even with nothing in terms of evidence that it did. It is to say that the conclusion is "unescapable" that it did. The evidence points to it not happening.

I'll admit to a little hyperbole.  But to me it seems obvious that that is what happened.  

In terms of "evidence," as I said before, it is circumstantial.  If someone has a established a pattern of behaving in a certain way, that is evidence of their behavior.  

The first time we see Balon Greyjoy, he establishes that he pays the "iron price" and not the gold.  So if you see him wielding Heartsbane, it is a pretty good bet that he killed Randyll Tarly and took it from him.  We would not assume that Balon bought it.

As another example, Ramsay Snow is in the habit of torturing women by hunting them with his dogs.  If you find a woman fleeing for her life in the vicinity of the Dreadfort, and you hear a pack of baying dogs who seem to be pursuing her, it is a pretty good bet that Ramsay is responsible -- even though you have no direct evidence of his involvement this time.  

 

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On 11.3.2017 at 4:35 AM, The Twinslayer said:

I think it quite possible you are right that it was not Cersei's idea for Jaime to join the KG.  

But she thinks it was.  And she claims to have arranged it.  I doubt she believes that at 15 she convinced Aerys to do it just because it was a good idea.  She thinks she arranged it because she thinks she manipulated Aerys into doing what she wanted him to do -- by sleeping with him.

And Aerys got to humiliate Tywin not just by taking away his heir, but by sleeping with Cersei.  Sure, one or other reason may have been sufficient to cause Tywin to resign and return to CR, but that does not mean that both did not happen.  

It is no leap of logic to suggest that Cersei and Aerys behaved in this matter precisely the way they behaved many other times in the books.

Finally, if you are right that Cersei believed that by getting Jaime to join the KG she was stealing Jaime's birthright for herself, she would need to be sure that Tyrion would not become Tywin's heir.  We know she did not discuss it with Tywin -- he was surprised at Jaime joined the KG.  The only other person who could give her that guarantee was Aerys.  Perhaps as pillow talk.

Again, that whole scenario doesn't make any sense in light of the fact that Aerys II was paranoid lunatic at that time who feared Lord Tywin was out there to kill him. He only met with his own Hand in the presence of the entire Kingsguard and looked like disgusting freak. Cersei would never have gotten the chance to get a private audience with him nor would she have been willing to sleep with such a creature (and if she did, we would know it by now because it would have killed any desire she might have had for Rhaegar and people resembling him (like Aurane Waters).

In addition, Aerys II also had sworn a solemn vow in 275 AC to henceforth only sleep with his lawful sister-wife, and all sources agree that his promiscuous days where over thereafter. Had Cersei been old enough and at court in the 270s Cersei most definitely would have been Aerys' mistress, especially since she seems to resemble her mother, but not in 280-81 AC. At that time, he would most likely have felt as threatened by Cersei as he was already feeling threatened by Tywin himself.

One should also keep in mind that Aerys was the king, and apparently not the sharpest knife in the box. Kings don't have the need to scheme and plot. They can do things. Aerys was paranoid and believed a lot of crazy conspiracy theories but it is not very likely he himself actually plotted with Cersei to arrange that Jaime joined the KG.

If there was a scheme involved, it was Varys talking to Aerys and Jaime both. He would have told Cersei that it was a great possibility to have Jaime with her if he joined the KG (and help her to get closer to Casterly Rock herself) and to Aerys that Tywin's son really wanted to be a KG and that it would be a great way to anger/humiliate Tywin.

The fact that Aerys only later realizes that Tywin's son was now constantly around him strongly suggests that he didn't come up with that idea.

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To summarize, we really don't know whose idea it was originally, but we have two villains (Aerys and Cersei) and a suspect (Varys), or two suspects if you count Pycelle, with conflicting motivations.

CERSEI: Stated motivation--Love: she wants to keep Jayme close and unmarried so he can sleep with her and protect her. Alternative motivation--she resents Jaime's male privilege and wants him out of the way so she can inherit Casterly Rock

AERYS: Obvious motivation--humiliate Tywin and stop the marriage to interfere with the STAB alliance. Alternative crackpot motivation--Aerys had sex with Joanna around the time of the twins' conception and believes (rightly or wrongly) that Jaime is his son, that's why he wants to take him away from Tywin. (Note: in this case Aerys would not have slept with Cersei anyway since even crazy Targaryens think father-daughter incest is creepy)

VARYS: Obvious motivation--helping his boss to achieve his goals. Alternative: Always hard to tell with Varys--if this was his idea originally, did he honestly think it was for the good of the realm, or was he actually trying to destabilize things?

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Aah, I'm on the fence on this...

It was something Cersei wanted. Maybe Varys slyly put ideas in her head, promised to put other ideas to Aerys, who would've liked the idea of depriving Tywin of his golden son...

So I think Varys let Cersei do her thing to rope in Jaime and let her think it was her brilliant idea... Cersei certainly would've been able to rope in Tywin's golden son. Naive Jaime probably almost thought it was his idea at the time.

ETA: Won't take away Jaime's free will and his decision to join KG. He was kind of duped but he should've known better.

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Surely if Cersei had slept with Aerys we would have got a hint about it in her POV? She does seem to dwell on her sexual relationships, her relationship with Robert, her obsession with Rhaegar. I think her molestation as a teenager by a mad, crusty king with fingernails like claws and a wild filthy beard would cross her mind once or twice.

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  • 1 month later...

 

“When will I wed the prince?” she asked. “Never. You will wed the king.” Beneath her golden curls, the girl’s face wrinkled up in puzzlement. For years after, she took those words to mean that she would not marry Rhaegar until after his father Aerys had died. (AFFC)

I don't see Cersei simply waiting for the king to die. Not after spending four of her teenage years trapped inside the Tower of the Hand with the father, who failed in his promise to marry her to the man she loved, Rhaegar. Regarding the prophecy her patt could only dissolve in three ways:

- the prophecy is wrong, because the king lives, so her place is to be Lady of Casterly Rock
- someone needs to help the prophecy come true by killing the king
- she makes the prophecy come true by marrying the king

The third option would have been the easy way, if only Cersei had taken matters in her own hands. The king hated his wife but had a thing for Cersei's mother. Cersei had the looks and the king would make up for the slight directed towards Tywin, when he rejected his servant's offer to wed his daughter to the prince if he made her queen. Aery's wife suffered numerous insults from her husband, but the Kingsguard was always on the his side, so no problem there. The master and servant theme throughout the Lannister family would have had a lucky turn in Tywin's eyes, since the handmaiden's ban from court would have been repaid by Joanna's daughter, younger and more beautiful... Only 15 years old Cersei as I read her was still a maiden and the king far from being sexually inspiring. So seducing him would not come as easy as some people seem to think. Still, Cersei might have tried it. As Jaime went to sleep during their passionate night, he seemed to be content with what she had to offer, but she woke him again and again. Sounds like training something she would later call her weapon, don't you think?
If that was indeed her plan, to gain knowledge and confidence to please the king, she could have had that without the side effects to make her brother Kingsguard and her father quitting his service. But the two other options might have been more promising to a young girl still waiting for her prince. So likely Cersei tried to combine all these options for the most favourable outcome.

Let's look at some wording of the questionable night the twins had:

He had joined the Kingsguard for love, of course. Their father had summoned Cersei to court when she was twelve, hoping to make her a royal marriage. He refused every offer for her hand, preferring to keep her with him in the Tower of the Hand while she grew older and more womanly and ever more beautiful. No doubt he was waiting for Prince Viserys to mature, or perhaps for Rhaegar’s wife to die in childbed. Elia of Dorne was never the healthiest of women. Jaime, meantime, had spent four years as squire to Ser Sumner Crakehall and earned his spurs against the Kingswood Brotherhood. But when he made a brief call at King’s Landing on his way back to Casterly Rock, chiefly to see his sister, Cersei took him aside and whispered that Lord Tywin meant to marry him to Lysa Tully, had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower. But if Jaime took the white, he could be near her always. Old Ser Harlan Grandison had died in his sleep, as was only appropriate for one whose sigil was a sleeping lion. Aerys would want a young man to take his place, so why not a roaring lion in place of a sleepy one? “Father will never consent,” Jaime objected. “The king won’t ask him. And once it’s done, Father can’t object, not openly. Aerys had Ser Ilyn Payne’s tongue torn out just for boasting that it was the Hand who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms. The captain of the Hand’s guard, and yet Father dared not try and stop it! He won’t stop this, either.” “But,” Jaime said, “there’s Casterly Rock...” “Is it a rock you want? Or me?” He remembered that night as if it were yesterday. They spent it in an old inn on Eel Alley, well away from watchful eyes. Cersei had come to him dressed as a simple serving wench, which somehow excited him all the more. Jaime had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. He gave his consent, and Cersei promised to do the rest. A moon’s turn later, a royal raven arrived at Casterly Rock to inform him that he had been chosen for the Kingsguard. He was commanded to present himself to the king during the great tourney at Harrenhal to say his vows and don his cloak. Jaime’s investiture freed him from Lysa Tully. Elsewise, nothing went as planned. His father had never been more furious. He could not object openly - Cersei had judged that correctly - but he resigned the Handship on some thin pretext and returned to Casterly Rock, taking his daughter with him. Instead of being together, Cersei and Jaime just changed places, and he found himself alone at court, guarding a mad king (...). (ASOS)

For the first option, returning home to become Lady of Casterly Rock at least, she won't need her father's consent but Jaime's. And as we can see above, indeed Jaime objected. He was the heir a father would hope for and it was Cersei failing to be that daughter. Where Cersei waited and hoped, Jaime earned his spurs. You need a good reason to leave all that behind. Better you leave nothing behind at all. The way Cersei described it, Jaime would join her and his father, to have a new home in King's Landing.

And here comes the second option into play. Cersei knew her father could not object openly. He would take revenge, maybe even kill the king, maybe even use Jaime as Kingsguard to do that. All Jaime would need is a strong motive to his reason. Love is it. Like in a kitschy fairytale she dresses up - a singular act in all their years she never intended to spare together. And her father would need a strong motive, too. Hate is it. For the king, who took away his son and spurned his daughter.

Cersei tried to make all options likely by training her skills as a lover, spoiling Tywin his son and sleeping with Jaime. All options stood in each others way in the end.

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On 2017-3-14 at 5:49 PM, Westerosi Coast Gangster said:

 

I  agree, having sex with Aerys is definitely something that would occupy space in her head and thus we would know about it

Well, her sleeping with anyone apart from Jaime and Robert doesn't occupy her mind, so that's not really an indication of anything. But I do think that sex with Aerys is a bit too far fetched anyway.

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There is no way in the seven hells that Cersei wouldn't remember sleeping with Aerys and mention it at some point. This is one of those rare cases in which absence of evidence proves something. Especially when we know how much he compares Rhaegar to other men, and Aerys was the closest thing to Rhaegar that existed at that point.

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5 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

There is no way in the seven hells that Cersei wouldn't remember sleeping with Aerys and mention it at some point. This is one of those rare cases in which absence of evidence proves something. Especially when we know how much he compares Rhaegar to other men, and Aerys was the closest thing to Rhaegar that existed at that point.

Lancel was the closest thing she had to Jaime and she still never thought about sleeping with him either. If Cersei slept with someone to just get something from him, she doesn't think about it later unless she has to bring it up. And she didn't need to bring up sleeping with Aerys at any point but there are still 2 books left, it still might be brought up. Or maybe it won't and nothing happened. I do believe that nothing happened but it is still a possibility until the series is over.

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6 hours ago, Dofs said:

Lancel was the closest thing she had to Jaime and she still never thought about sleeping with him either. If Cersei slept with someone to just get something from him, she doesn't think about it later unless she has to bring it up. And she didn't need to bring up sleeping with Aerys at any point but there are still 2 books left, it still might be brought up. Or maybe it won't and nothing happened. I do believe that nothing happened but it is still a possibility until the series is over.

 

She did. IICR; she remembered she mocked his mustache.

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I'm also not entirely convinced that Cersei was, as a girl, the woman we know her as now. The worst thing she might have done was either push Melara into a well or simply not try to her help her when she fell in on her own. I think it was her loveless marriage to Robert Baratheon that really honed her into the kind of person she is during the books. I think a lot of speculation in this thread, especially regarding Cersei and Aerys, is based on an idea that she is a static character rather than one created through circumstances.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that she was a lot like Sansa at some point, dreaming of marrying into royalty and being a princess/queen with a beautiful prince/king in shining armor. She even mentions drawing a picture of her and Rhaegar riding on the back of a dragon after learning from her father that she was to be betrothed to him. While I'm not blaming Robert for turning her into what she is, I am saying she was once a normal highborn girl with normal highborn girl dreams.

And as far as her motivations to get Jaime into the KG, I think the simplest explanation is to keep him close due to the prophecy.
 

Quote

 

“Aye.” Malice gleamed in Maggy’s yellow eyes. “Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.”

Anger flashed across the child’s face. “If she tries I will have my brother kill her.”

Martin, George R.R.. A Feast for Crows: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Four (p. 610). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

 

and
 

Quote

 

“Do you still grieve for this friend of your childhood?” Qyburn asked. “Is that what troubles you, Your Grace?”

“Melara? No. I can hardly recall what she looked like. It is just . . . the maegi knew how many children I would have, and she knew of Robert’s bastards. Years before he’d sired even the first of them, she knew. She promised me I should be queen, but said another queen would come . . .” Younger and more beautiful, she said. “. . . another queen, who would take from me all I loved.”

“And you wish to forestall this prophecy?”

More than anything, she thought. “Can it be forestalled?”

“Oh, yes. Never doubt that.”

“How?”

“I think Your Grace knows how.”

She did. I knew it all along, she thought. Even in the tent. “If she tries I will have my brother kill her.”

Martin, George R.R.. A Feast for Crows: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Four (pp. 614-615). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

 

 

 

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