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Lost Melnibonean

Moments of Foreshadowing v.12

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On ‎9‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 0:20 AM, Widow's Watch said:

As far as loaded statements go, this one is very loaded with meaning and double speak. I also know it's probably not the first time it's brought up.

It begs the question whether Jon is going to find out the truth sooner rather than later and not say anything. I also really like the thought about him taking his place by his brother's side to help avenge his father. If we forget for a moment that Aegon could be a fake, I find it could a neat foreshadowing of Jon and Aegon meeting and standing together. 

I think you're absolutely right in the first instance, he will never claim his Targaryen heritage despite becoming aware of it and that he was trueborn. But then that point of the passage is that he's not going to embrace the Targ name, meaning Aegon is nothing to him and it is about Robb and Ned and not Rhaegar or anyone else.

The passage as a whole is a prime pointer to the outsider, detached, loveless, friendless unfeeling leader he is set to become on his return. All warmth having fled from him, black-hearted bastard, cold eyed with a frozen heart, silent with eyes that speak; lord's eyes, cold and grey and full of judgement. The right man for the job, the wartime leader for facing the apocalypse. Thanks for quoting it here.

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Maybe this:

''This time the monsters did not frighten her. They seemed almost old friends. Arya held the candle over her head. With each step she took, the shadows moved against the walls, as if they were turning to watch her pass. "Dragons," she whispered. She slid Needle out from under her cloak. The slender blade seemed very small and the dragons very big, yet somehow Arya felt better with steel in her hand.''

- Arya IV, A Game of Thrones

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"A fire?" Bronn said, spitting. "Are you so hungry to die, dwarf? Or have you taken leave of your senses? A fire will bring the clansmen down on us from miles around. I mean to survive this journey, Lannister."

"And how do you hope to do that?" Tyrion asked. He tucked the branch under his arm and poked around through the sparse undergrowth, looking for more. His back ached from the effort of bending; they had been riding since daybreak, when a stone-faced Ser Lyn Corbray had ushered them through the Bloody Gate and commanded them never to return.

Tyrion VI, Game 42

Quote

The device painted on the shield was one Sansa did not know; a grey stone head with fiery eyes, upon a light green field. "My grandfather's shield," Petyr explained when he saw her gazing at it. "His own father was born in Braavos and came to the Vale as a sellsword in the hire of Lord Corbray, so my grandfather took the head of the Titan as his sigil when he was knighted."

Sansa VI, Storm 68

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"Redfort and Waynwood are old. One or both of them may die. Gilwood Hunter will be murdered by his brothers. Most likely by young Harlan, who arranged Lord Eon's death. In for a penny, in for a stag, I always say. Belmore is corrupt and can be bought. Templeton I shall befriend. Bronze Yohn Royce will continue to be hostile, I fear, but so long as he stands alone he is not so much a threat."

"And Ser Lyn Corbray?"

The candlelight was dancing in his eyes. "Ser Lyn will remain my implacable enemy. He will speak of me with scorn and loathing to every man he meets, and lend his sword to every secret plot to bring me down."

That was when her suspicion turned to certainty. "And how shall you reward him for this service?"

Littlefinger laughed aloud. "With gold and boys and promises, of course. Ser Lyn is a man of simple tastes, my sweetling. All he likes is gold and boys and killing."

Alayne I, Feast 23

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The Red Keep was full of cats: lazy old cats dozing in the sun, cold-eyed mousers twitching their tails, quick little kittens with claws like needles, ladies' cats all combed and trusting, ragged shadows prowling the midden heaps. One by one Arya had chased them down and snatched them up and brought them proudly to Syrio Forel … all but this one, this one-eared black devil of a tomcat. "That's the real king of this castle right there," one of the gold cloaks had told her. "Older than sin and twice as mean. One time, the king was feasting the queen's father, and that black bastard hopped up on the table and snatched a roast quail right out of Lord Tywin's fingers. Robert laughed so hard he like to burst. You stay away from that one, child."

The types of cats match up remarkably well with the Stark children and their wolves:

lazy old cats dozing in the sun -Bran the dreamer and Summer:

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The trail they followed was a little easier that day, and by noon the sun came breaking through the clouds. Bran sat in his basket up on Hodor's back and felt almost content. He dozed off once, lulled to sleep by the smooth swing of the big stableboy's stride and the soft humming sound he made sometimes when he walked. Meera woke him up with a light touch on his arm. "Look," she said, pointing at the sky with her frog spear, "an eagle."

cold-eyed mousers twitching their tails -Robb and Greywind, cold eyed Ned’s heir, the mouser who hunts lions:

Quote

"What else would you call it? Father sits in one castle, and Robb Stark sits in another, and no one does anything."

"There is sitting and there is sitting," Tyrion suggested. "Each one waits for the other to move, but the lion is still, poised, his tail twitching, while the fawn is frozen by fear, bowels turned to jelly. No matter which way he bounds, the lion will have him, and he knows it." 
"And you're quite certain that Father is the lion?"

quick little kittens with claws like needles -Arya with Needle

ladies' cats all combed and trusting -Sansa and Lady

ragged shadows prowling the midden heaps -Rickon and Shaggydog, I picture them waiting in the Stark Crypt after Ned’s death.

and of course...

the one who got away, the black bastard, Jon Snow, the real king of the castle.

 

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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"I kept the silver," Tyrion had told him with a crooked smile, "but you were promised the gold, and there it is." It was more than a man like Mord could hope to earn in a lifetime of abusing prisoners. "And remember what I said, this is only a taste. If you ever grow tired of Lady Arryn's service, present yourself at Casterly Rock, and I'll pay you the rest of what I owe you." With golden dragons spilling out of both hands, Mord had fallen to his knees and promised that he would do just that.

Tyrion VI, Game 42

Mord better not...

Quote

For that, Mord gave him a kick, driving a steel-toed boot hard into Tyrion's ribs on the way out. "I take it back!" he gasped as he doubled over on the straw. "I'll kill you myself, I swear it!" 

Tyrion V, Game 38

But I suspect he will...

Quote

"A Lannister always pays his debts."

Tyrion VI, Game 42

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3 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The types of cats match up remarkably well with the Stark children and their wolves:

lazy old cats dozing in the sun -Bran the dreamer and Summer:

cold-eyed mousers twitching their tails -Robb and Greywind, cold eyed Ned’s heir, the mouser who hunts lions:

 

quick little kittens with claws like needles -Arya with Needle

ladies' cats all combed and trusting -Sansa and Lady

ragged shadows prowling the midden heaps -Rickon and Shaggydog, I picture them waiting in the Stark Crypt after Ned’s death.

and of course...

the one who got away, the black bastard, Jon Snow, the real king of the castle.

 

Nice. (But what's the foreshadowing?)

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Nice. (But what's the foreshadowing?)

Jon Snow is the real king of the castle?

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34 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Sansa VI, Storm 68

Since you didn't bolded "the sellsword in the hire of Lord Corbray", it took me a while to understand you meant the inversion of the historical role of Baelishs and Corbrays.

Of course ... if that's what you really meant.

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1 hour ago, Ckram said:

Since you didn't bolded "the sellsword in the hire of Lord Corbray", it took me a while to understand you meant the inversion of the historical role of Baelishs and Corbrays.

Of course ... if that's what you really meant.

It wasn't so much that, which is pretty obvious, but the description of Lyn as "stone-faced" way back in Game, long before we see Lyn working clandestinely for Petyr, whose family sigil is a stone head. 

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He could not blame Gilly for her grief.  Instead, he blamed Jon Snow and wondered when Jon's heart had turned to stone.

Sam III(?), AFFC

 

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"Go ahead, call me all the names you want," Sansa said airily. "You won't dare when I'm married to Joffrey. You'll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace." She shrieked as Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap.

"You have juice on your face, Your Grace," Arya said.

It was running down her nose and stinging her eyes. Sansa wiped it away with a napkin. When she saw what the fruit in her lap had done to her beautiful ivory silk dress, she shrieked again. "You're horrible," she screamed at her sister. "They should have killed you instead of Lady!"

Septa Mordane came lurching to her feet. "Your lord father will hear of this! Go to your chambers, at once. At once!"

"Me too?" Tears welled in Sansa's eyes. "That's not fair."

"The matter is not subject to discussion. Go!"

Sansa stalked away with her head up. She was to be a queen, and queens did not cry. At least not where people could see. When she reached her bedchamber, she barred the door and took off her dress. The blood orange had left a blotchy red stain on the silk. "I hate her!" she screamed. She balled up the dress and flung it into the cold hearth, on top of the ashes of last night's fire. When she saw that the stain had bled through onto her underskirt, she began to sob despite herself. She ripped off the rest of her clothes wildly, threw herself into bed, and cried herself back to sleep.

Sansa III, Game 44

Foreshadows what happens when Sansa's... um... "flower blooms." 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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I don't know if this counts as foreshadowing cause it's pretty explicit, but still:

"No." Sam wiped his nose, and pointed south with a fat finger, toward the gathering darkness. "There," he said. No sooner had he spoken than lightning flashed, sudden and silent and blinding bright. The distant clouds glowed for half a heartbeat, mountains heaped on mountains, purple and red and yellow, taller than the world. "The worst isn't done. The worst is just beginning, and there are no happy endings."

- Sam II, A Feast for Crows

Also could there be some hint in the previous sentences? First the lightning, and then ''mountains heaped on mountains, purple and red and yellow, taller than the world''. I think it's possible, since that combination of colours is a little suspect.

Edited by Lady Anna

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Of course:

"It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf's dead and young one's gone south to play the game of thrones, and all that's left us is the ghosts."
"The wolves will come again," said Jojen solemnly.
- Bran II, A Storm of Swords
 
He grabbed the little girl by the hand and pulled her close. "What if the wolves come?"
"Yield," Arya suggested.
- Arya V, A Clash of Kings

Can't wait. (I edited the post to include the mountains man's line for more context for the 1st quote)

Edited by Lady Anna

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5 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

Of course:

"The wolves will come again," said Jojen solemnly.
- Bran II, A Storm of Swords
 
He grabbed the little girl by the hand and pulled her close. "What if the wolves come?"
"Yield," Arya suggested.
- Arya V, A Clash of Kings

Can't wait.

Whaaat? :wub: Nice catch. 

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59 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

"The wolves will come again," said Jojen solemnly.

- Bran II, A Storm of Swords

Actually, this reminds me of this;

Quote

"Someday the dragons will return." (The Mystery Knight)

Daeron dreamt it and Aerys read it in one of his scrolls. This happens like 80 years before House Targaryen is decimated. And we have Jojen with his greendreams telling Bran that the wolves will come again right before the Red Wedding and the collapse of House Stark.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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55 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Actually, would you say that this quote about the wolves coming again and this quote;

have the same meaning?
Daeron dreamt it and Aerys read it in one of his scrolls. This happens like 80 years before House Targaryen is decimated. And we have Jojen with his greendreams telling Bran that the wolves will come again right before the Red Wedding and the collapse of House Stark.

I should start by saying that I'm not too familiar with the Dunk & Egg stories except the first. But in my opinion no. I think it refers only to literal dragons since House Targaryen was still strong at the time Daeron had those dreams (but they had lost what gave them that strength in the first place). And by the time Jojen says that line, House Stark has already lost its lord and Winterfell has been destroyed and burnt, and its heirs (allegedly) killed. I don't see the connection.

But it's possible. (Also that line is from a secondary material; I'm not saying it can't be important but thematically I think the main series should stand on its own, while the rest is more like easter egg (no pun intended) material; are there similar references like that in asoiaf?). I'm not really invested in any Targaryen resurgence tbh. Not just because I couldn't care less but I like Dany's story being that she is the last Targaryen, and I just can't shake the feeling she and her dragons aren't going to make it.

To me, those two lines are different as well in.....how they feel? and what they convey to the reader. I may be biased towards the Starks but it's clear that that line, among other things, implies their resurgence, maybe not in numbers but in impact - the story began with them and will end with them - there's no doubt in my mind about this*. Then we have House Targaryen which just consists of one individual** unlikely to continue her lineage, but who has 3 dragons, who are very special and important, and once meant everything to the Targaryens, and were strongly connected to their power and way of being. I don't know......a part of me also thinks Martin will spring a Jonerys on us, and we'll have a new Targaryen line.......so you may be right!

* though 'the wolves will come again' doesn't mean they will come back forever, which can also be applied to the dragons, both literal and human

** yes I believe RLJ but Jon having a Targaryen biological dad that he never met nor has any connection to, quite the contrary, doesn't mean he is or will be seen as one (certainly not by him imo)

Edited by Lady Anna

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3 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

I should start by saying that I'm not too familiar with the Dunk & Egg stories except the first. But in my opinion no. I think it refers only to literal dragons since House Targaryen was still strong at the time Daeron had those dreams (but they had lost what gave them that strength in the first place). And by the time Jojen says that line, House Stark has already lost its lord and Winterfell has been destroyed and burnt, and its heirs (allegedly) killed. I don't see the connection.

But it's possible. (Also that line is from a secondary material; I'm not saying it can't be important but thematically I think the main series should stand on its own, while the rest is more like easter egg (no pun intended) material; are there similar references like that in asoiaf?). I'm not really invested in any Targaryen resurgence tbh. Not just because I couldn't care less but I like Dany's story being that she is the last Targaryen, and I just can't shake the feeling she and her dragons aren't going to make it.

To me, those two lines are different as well in.....how they feel? and what they convey to the reader. I may be biased towards the Starks but it's clear that that line, among other things, implies their resurgence, maybe not in numbers but in impact - the story began with them and will end with them - there's no doubt in my mind about this*. Then we have House Targaryen which just consists of one individual** unlikely to continue her lineage, but who has 3 dragons, who are very special and important, and once meant everything to the Targaryens, and were strongly connected to their power and way of being. I don't know......a part of me also thinks Martin will spring a Jonerys on us, and we'll have a new Targaryen line.......so you may be right!

* though 'the wolves will come again' doesn't mean they will come back forever, which can also be applied to the dragons, both literal and human

** yes I believe RLJ but Jon having a Targaryen biological dad that he never met nor has any connection to, quite the contrary, doesn't mean he is or will be seen as one (certainly not by him imo)

You gotta read the ancillary stuff. :)

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9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You gotta read the ancillary stuff. :)

I have read the Dunk&Egg stories but not the rest (unless you count reading the wiki for the content that's on awoiaf ^_^). They're useful if you want to speculate but I don't think it should be mandatory reading to understand asoiaf on its own. Maybe some have that perception because the series isn't finished. But there's enough information on Dance for readers to understand who the Blackfyres are and what they did in case Aegon turns out to be one, for example. If there are hints on the novellas (which there are obviously) then that's just a bonus.

Do you think that line referred to wing-less dragons?

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16 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

I should start by saying that I'm not too familiar with the Dunk & Egg stories except the first. But in my opinion no. I think it refers only to literal dragons since House Targaryen was still strong at the time Daeron had those dreams (but they had lost what gave them that strength in the first place). And by the time Jojen says that line, House Stark has already lost its lord and Winterfell has been destroyed and burnt, and its heirs (allegedly) killed. I don't see the connection.

Without quoting the rest of your post, I will say that I disagree that the quote in the Mystery Knight refers only to literal dragons only. Daeron's dream as we see it in the Hedge Knight is of a black dragon dying and that black dragon turned out to be a person, Baelor Breakspear. The way the word dragon is used in the story, Aegon the Dragon, the Young Dragon, the Dragonknight, the Dragon Prince, the Dragon Queen, the Targaryens are the dragons too. 

When Aegon says the "dragons will return", he is obviously talking about the fire-breathing, winged variety. And since Daenerys has hatched herself three dragons, then yes, Daeron's dream and Aerys's scrolls were correct, but Aegon has no way of knowing that 80 years later, his House will not be ruling Westeros and that the tree has only one branch left (without counting Jon or Young Griff). 

The wolves will come again and the dragons will return always held the same meaning for me, but we can certainly agree to disagree ^_^

BTW, I'm not dismissing your original post. I thought the connection was pretty great.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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17 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

Of course:

"It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf's dead and young one's gone south to play the game of thrones, and all that's left us is the ghosts."
"The wolves will come again," said Jojen solemnly.
- Bran II, A Storm of Swords
 
He grabbed the little girl by the hand and pulled her close. "What if the wolves come?"
"Yield," Arya suggested.
- Arya V, A Clash of Kings

Can't wait. (I edited the post to include the mountains man's line for more context for the 1st quote)

Can't. Wait. 

I love it all the more because it's Arya. Wanna see her wolfshly demanding Boltons or Lannisters or Freys to yield. 

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