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Moments of Foreshadowing v.12


Lost Melnibonean

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1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

Without quoting the rest of your post, I will say that I disagree that the quote in the Mystery Knight refers only to literal dragons only. Daeron's dream as we see it in the Hedge Knight is of a black dragon dying and that black dragon turned out to be a person, Baelor Breakspear. The way the word dragon is used in the story, Aegon the Dragon, the Young Dragon, the Dragonknight, the Dragon Prince, the Dragon Queen, the Targaryens are the dragons too. 

Agree. And also the dragon that hatches at Whitewalls is Egg.

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2 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

I have read the Dunk&Egg stories but not the rest (unless you count reading the wiki for the content that's on awoiaf ^_^). They're useful if you want to speculate but I don't think it should be mandatory reading to understand asoiaf on its own. Maybe some have that perception because the series isn't finished. But there's enough information on Dance for readers to understand who the Blackfyres are and what they did in case Aegon turns out to be one, for example. If there are hints on the novellas (which there are obviously) then that's just a bonus.

Do you think that line referred to wing-less dragons?

No. The ones with wings, I think. But only in that context. 

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1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

Without quoting the rest of your post, I will say that I disagree that the quote in the Mystery Knight refers only to literal dragons only. Daeron's dream as we see it in the Hedge Knight is of a black dragon dying and that black dragon turned out to be a person, Baelor Breakspear. The way the word dragon is used in the story, Aegon the Dragon, the Young Dragon, the Dragonknight, the Dragon Prince, the Dragon Queen, the Targaryens are the dragons too. 

When Aegon says the "dragons will return", he is obviously talking about the fire-breathing, winged variety. And since Daenerys has hatched herself three dragons, then yes, Daeron's dream and Aerys's scrolls were correct, but Aegon has no way of knowing that 80 years later, his House will not be ruling Westeros and that the tree has only one branch left (without counting Jon or Young Griff). 

The wolves will come again and the dragons will return always held the same meaning for me, but we can certainly agree to disagree ^_^

BTW, I'm not dismissing your original post. I thought the connection was pretty great.

Thank you for your reply. How do you think the Targaryens will return though? And will it be significant? Do you think it refers to Dany only?

I feel like this is a matter of personal interpretation and how one views the story and its possible conclusion; while the two lines may both refer to people and animals, I feel they have different.....connotations. Aegon's line was said in a time where the literal meaning was much more significant (and Daeron's dream in the first novella came to fruition in that same story, as well as the one about a dragon hatching in the third one (?) he didn't know the Targaryens would be nearly extinct in the future so why would he have such a long-distance dream; it could be only an author-to-reader hint I guess); while Jojen's was immediately post-family downfall, when hope seemed distant, hence why I said I see no connection. I don't know if I'm making sense, sorry.

Still, while I don't agree that that particular line meant both people and dragons, you may be right in the end - the Targaryens will return, I just don't think that line was a hint towards that.

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“That damnable wheelhouse, the way it creaks and groans, climbing every bump in the road as if it were a mountain … I promise you, if that wretched thing breaks another axle, I’m going to burn it, and Cersei can walk!”
Ned laughed. “I will gladly light the torch for you.”

(AGoT, Ch.12 Eddard II)

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Given what we learned from the SSM on Hodor's name as reported by the HBO showrunners, this seems a bit forshadowy...

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A series of chisel-cut handholds made a ladder in the granite of the tower's inner wall. Hodorhummed tunelessly as he went down hand under hand, Bran bouncing against his back in the wicker seat that Maester Luwin had fashioned for him.Luwin had gotten the idea from the baskets the women used to carry firewood on their backs; after that it had been a simple matter of cuttinglegholes and attaching some new straps to spread Bran's weight more evenly. It was not as good as riding Dancer, but there were places Dancer could not go, and this did not shame Bran the way it did when Hodor carried him in his arms like a baby. Hodor seemed to like it too, though with Hodor it was hard to tell. The only tricky part was doors. Sometimes Hodor forgot that he had Bran on his back, and that could be painful when he went through a door.

Bran VI, Game 53

 

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Not all the fighting men were broken, though. Half a dozen Thenns in bronze scale armor stood clustered round one cellar stair, watching sullenly and making no attempt to join the others. In the ruins of the old village smithy Jon spied a big bald slab of a man he recognized as Halleck, the brother of Harma Dogshead. Harma's pigs were gone, though. Eaten, no doubt. Those two in furs were Hornfoot men, as savage as they were scrawny, barefoot even in the snow. There are wolves amongst these sheep, still. 

Val had reminded him of that, on his last visit with her. "Free folk and kneelers are more alike than not, Jon Snow. Men are men and women women, no matter which side of the Wall we were born on. Good men and bad, heroes and villains, men of honor, liars, cravens, brutes … we have plenty, as do you."
 
Will Val end up a Stark?
 
Who is she anyway, talking like a highborn princess?
 
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Their breath mingled, a white mist in the air. Jon Snow drew back and said, "The only thanks I want is—"

"—Tormund Giantsbane. Aye." Val pulled up the hood of her bearskin. The brown pelt was well salted with grey. "Before I go, one question. Did you kill Jarl, my lord?" 
"The Wall killed Jarl."
 
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Tyrion has promised the Vale to the clans...

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"A Lannister always pays his debts."

...

"I will give you the Vale of Arryn."

Tyrion VI, Game 42

But he'll need them to unite around a leader...

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That was the trouble with the clans; they had an absurd notion that every man's voice should be heard in council, so they argued about everything, endlessly. Even their women were allowed to speak. Small wonder that it had been hundreds of years since they last threatened the Vale with anything beyond an occasional raid. Tyrion meant to change that.

Tyrion VII, Game 56

That leader will be Timett...

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"Then the honest men of the city owe Timett a debt of gratitude. I shall see that he has the king's thanks."

Tyrion II, Clash 8

And we all know that Timett son of Timett is Robert Arryn’s true heir right? Perhaps Tyrion can convince Lord Bronze Yohn of House Royce, which traces its ancestry back to the First Men, to backTimett against the wayward Ser Harold Hardyng?

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Her uncle's face was grave as he swung down off his horse. "There has been a battle under the walls of Riverrun," he said, his mouth grim. "We had it a Lannister outrider we took captive. The Kingslayer has destroyed Edmure's host and sent the lords of the Trident reeling in flight."

A cold hand clutched at Cltelyn's heart. "And my brother?"

"Wounded and taken prisoner, Ser Brynden said. "Lord Blackwood and the other survivors are under siege inside Riverrun, surrounded by Jaime's host."

Catelyn IX, Game 59

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On 2/6/2018 at 7:16 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Tyrion has promised the Vale to the clans...

Tyrion VI, Game 42

But he'll need them to unite around a leader...

Tyrion VII, Game 56

That leader will be Timett...

Tyrion II, Clash 8

And we all know that Timett son of Timett is Robert Arryn’s true heir right? Perhaps Tyrion can convince Lord Bronze Yohn of House Royce, which traces its ancestry back to the First Men, to backTimett against the wayward Ser Harold Hardyng?

Are you sure Timmet is only heir to the Vale, and not Winterfell also?

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"No," Catelyn agreed. "You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son." She considered a moment. "Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . ."

 

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You'd have to cut down a few more Starks to get there. And I expect a Northman or three might stand in the way. 

Unless Rob’s will skips over his siblings... and you hold Jon to his vow... then we get the broken wheel, the Waynwood errant, Timmet son of Timmet!

but ya, I don’t actually see that playing out... I was mostly just playing.

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4 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Unless Rob’s will skips over his siblings... and you hold Jon to his vow... then we get the broken wheel, the Waynwood errant, Timmet son of Timmet!

but ya, I don’t actually see that playing out... I was mostly just playing.

I figured as much. Still, you made me think about it. 

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"When the smith's son was an old man, a bastard son of the fourth Aegon rose up in rebellion against his trueborn brother and took for his sigil a black dragon. These lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to the king. The sight of the black iron dragon made him wroth, so he cut down the post, hacked the sign into pieces, and cast them into the river. One of the dragon's heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust. The innkeep never hung another sign, so men forgot the dragon and took to calling the place the River Inn." - AFFC, Brienne VII

We've all seen this quote before, and paid attention to the black dragon head turning red pointing to Aegon as Blackfyre appearing as a Targaryen. However, the last part that is bolded could point out that after the Blackfyre threat has been forgotten that the last Blackfyre pretender, Aegon, has been living on a riverboat on the Rhoyne his whole life.  

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1 hour ago, Fire Eater said:

We've all seen this quote before, and paid attention to the black dragon head turning red pointing to Aegon as Blackfyre appearing as a Targaryen. However, the last part that is bolded could point out that after the Blackfyre threat has been forgotten that the last Blackfyre pretender, Aegon, has been living on a riverboat on the Rhoyne his whole life.  

Love it, except that when I read it I see:

Rhaegar in his black armor getting cut down, along with Jon Darry, and cast into the river.

Willem Darry takes one head of the dragon across the sea, from the Isle of Dragonstone.

When she emerges again she believes she is a red dragon, instead of spawn of the black dragon.

The Crossroads Inn, possibly where Rhaegar “fell upon” Lyanna.

And of course where Tyrion is captured.

But (f)Aegon makes an appearance too:

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There was life at the crossroads inn, though. Even before they reached the gate, Brienne heard the sound: a hammering, faint but steady. It had a steely ring. (Bittersteel?)

"A forge," Ser Hyle said. "Either they have themselves a smith, or the old innkeep's ghost is making another iron dragon."
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Bronn/Lollys foreshadowing. I've noted before that things mentioned in proximity may be related at some point in the past, present or future and this is the case here. It's a similar switcheroo pattern which was used for Sansa and Tyrion.

Lady Tanda wants Tyrion to marry Lollys --> Bronn is a Tyrion substitute in this passage (he matches his steps to Tyrion and wears a Lannister cloak with golden hands) --> Bronn marries Lollys

 

ACOK Tyrion IV

"He's pledged to Joffrey; he's not like to face you." They set off across the bailey, Bronn matching his long stride to Tyrion's short one. These days the sellsword was looking almost respectable. His dark hair was washed and brushed, he was freshly shaved, and he wore the black breastplate of an officer of the City Watch. From his shoulders trailed a cloak of Lannister crimson patterned with golden hands. Tyrion had made him a gift of it when he named him captain of his personal guard. "How many supplicants do we have today?" he inquired.

"Thirty odd," answered Bronn. "Most with complaints, or wanting something, as ever. Your pet was back."

He groaned. "Lady Tanda?"

"Her page. She invites you to sup with her again. There's to be a haunch of venison, she says, a brace of stuffed geese sauced with mulberries, and—"

"—her daughter," Tyrion finished sourly. Since the hour he had arrived in the Red Keep, Lady Tanda had been stalking him, armed with a never-ending arsenal of lamprey pies, wild boars, and savory cream stews. Somehow she had gotten the notion that a dwarf lordling would be the perfect consort for her daughter Lollys, a large, soft, dim-witted girl who rumor said was still a maid at thirty-and-three. "Send her my regrets."

 

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Another using the switcheroo pattern. This time a big hint that Cersei is sleeping with Lancel.

Tyrion gives a description of Lancel which compares to Jaime —> Tyrion links Lancel’s song to Jaime sleeping with Cersei —> Lancel is sleeping with Cersei

ACOK Tyrion VI

Through the door came the soft sound of the high harp, mingled with a trilling of pipes. The singer's voice was muffled by the thick walls, yet Tyrion knew the verse. I loved a maid as fair as summer, he remembered, with sunlight in her hair . . .

Ser Meryn Trant guarded the queen's door this night. His muttered "My lord" struck Tyrion as a tad grudging, but he opened the door nonetheless. The song broke off abruptly as he strode into his sister's bedchamber.

Cersei was reclining on a pile of cushions. Her feet were bare, her golden hair artfully tousled, her robe a green-and-gold samite that caught the light of the candles and shimmered as she looked up. "Sweet sister," Tyrion said, "how beautiful you look tonight." He turned to the singer. "And you as well, cousin. I had no notion you had such a lovely voice."

The compliment made Ser Lancel sulky; perhaps he thought he was being mocked. It seemed to Tyrion that the lad had grown three inches since being knighted.
Lancel had thick sandy hair, green Lannister eyes, and a line of soft blond fuzz on his upper lip. At sixteen, he was cursed with all the certainty of youth, unleavened by any trace of humor or self-doubt, and wed to the arrogance that came so naturally to those born blond and strong and handsome. His recent elevation had only made him worse. "Did Her Grace send for you?" the boy demanded.

...


Is this the Cersei that Jaime sees? When she smiled, you saw how beautiful she was, truly. I loved a maid as fair as summer, with sunlight in her hair. He almost felt sorry for poisoning her.

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26 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Another using the switcheroo pattern. This time a big hint that Cersei is sleeping with Lancel.

 

Tyrion gives a description of Lancel which compares to Jaime —> Tyrion links Lancel’s song to Jaime sleeping with Cersei —> Lancel is sleeping with Cersei

ACOK Tyrion VI

Through the door came the soft sound of the high harp, mingled with a trilling of pipes. The singer's voice was muffled by the thick walls, yet Tyrion knew the verse. I loved a maid as fair as summer, he remembered, with sunlight in her hair . . .

Ser Meryn Trant guarded the queen's door this night. His muttered "My lord" struck Tyrion as a tad grudging, but he opened the door nonetheless. The song broke off abruptly as he strode into his sister's bedchamber.

Cersei was reclining on a pile of cushions. Her feet were bare, her golden hair artfully tousled, her robe a green-and-gold samite that caught the light of the candles and shimmered as she looked up. "Sweet sister," Tyrion said, "how beautiful you look tonight." He turned to the singer. "And you as well, cousin. I had no notion you had such a lovely voice."

The compliment made Ser Lancel sulky; perhaps he thought he was being mocked. It seemed to Tyrion that the lad had grown three inches since being knighted.
Lancel had thick sandy hair, green Lannister eyes, and a line of soft blond fuzz on his upper lip. At sixteen, he was cursed with all the certainty of youth, unleavened by any trace of humor or self-doubt, and wed to the arrogance that came so naturally to those born blond and strong and handsome. His recent elevation had only made him worse. "Did Her Grace send for you?" the boy demanded.

...


Is this the Cersei that Jaime sees? When she smiled, you saw how beautiful she was, truly. I loved a maid as fair as summer, with sunlight in her hair. He almost felt sorry for poisoning her.

I like to see your thoughts about this thread, and more specifically this post, as you please. 

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Hodor will die barring the door to the crypts when men win the War for the Dawn at Winterfell...

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"Hodor won't go down into the crypts."

The maester had only been half listening, Bran could tell. He lifted his eye from the tube, blinking. "Hodor won't . . . "

Go down into the crypts. When I woke, I told him to take me down, to see if Father was truly there. At first he didn't know what I was saying, but I got him to the steps by telling him to go here and go there, only then he wouldn't go down. He just stood on the top step and said ‘Hodor,' like he was scared of the dark, but I had a torch. It made me so mad I almost gave him a swat in the head, like Old Nan is always doing." He saw the way the maester was frowning and hurriedly added, "I didn't, though."

Bran VII, Game 66

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35 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Hodor will die barring the door to the crypts when men win the War for the Dawn at Winterfell...

Bran VII, Game 66

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII    "And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube.    "It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. "Hodor won't go down into the crypts."

This could use a thread of its own considering that Rickon was down there in the crypts because he also had a dream about Eddard before Eddard died.

 

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38 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Hodor will die barring the door to the crypts when men win the War for the Dawn at Winterfell...

Bran VII, Game 66

Oh I like it. Like it a lot! Nice one. :thumbsup:

 

1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII    "And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube.    "It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. "Hodor won't go down into the crypts."

This could use a thread of its own considering that Rickon was down there in the crypts because he also had a dream about Eddard before Eddard died.

Perfect, the quote to go w/ it!

And definitely agree, a thread on Winterfell's crypts sounds delicious! :D

All those swords being taken from the tombs... Will the wraiths of the old KoW "come out and play" w/o the iron to keep them in place?  :wideeyed: 

 

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