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Moments of Foreshadowing v.12

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9 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

On the side, Quaithe appears to Dany in the Dothraki Sea, and her mask is starlight.

Yeap...

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Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask.

Daenerys III, Clash 40

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The skulls of the Targaryen dragons were emerging from the darkness around them, black amidst grey.

-Tyrion VII ASOS

Foreshadowing a black dragon (fAegon) and a grey dragon (Jon) eventually rising to the fore.

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5 minutes ago, tf13 said:

Foreshadowing a black dragon (fAegon) and a grey dragon (Jon) eventually rising to the fore.

Could be. Or perhaps it's just about the special snowflake. Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon, and a dragon's bones are black. So the black is a dragon, and the gray is Winterfell (and stone), and perhaps we should be looking for a dragon emerging from Winterfell? Not an actual dragon, but an ice dragon--a product of the union of a Stark and a Targaryen, perhaps? 

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It's been a couple years since I've been here, so I need to ask -

Has anyone spotted Wrong Way Dany?

We all know Quaithe's advice to Dany (from several sources) - "To go north, you must go south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

In Meereen (ADwD 11 - Dany II) Dany gets another nocturnal visit from Quaithe (presumably via glass candle.) Frustrated, Dany repeats Quaithe's instructions back to her - and gets it wrong.

"I remember the way. I go north to go south, east to go west, back to go forward. And to touch the light I have to pass beneath the shadow."

Dany reverses north and south. One interpretation might be that Quaithe is telling Dany (whose goal is the Iron Throne ) that she should land in Dorne in order to go to King's Landing (go south to go north), while Dany will mistakenly land in the Vale instead (going north to go south.)

Please tell me I'm not the first to catch this.

Edited by Ibbison from Ibben

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4 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

It's been a couple years since I've been here, so I need to ask -

Has anyone spotted Wrong Way Dany?

We all know Quaithe's advice to Dany (from several sources) - "To go north, you must go south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

In Meereen (ADwD 11 - Dany II) Dany gets another nocturnal visit from Quaithe (presumably via glass candle.) Frustrated, Dany repeats Quaithe's instructions back to her - and gets it wrong.

"I remember the way. I go north to go south, east to go west, back to go forward. And to touch the light I have to pass beneath the shadow."

Dany reverses north and south. One interpretation might be that Quaithe is telling Dany (whose goal is the Iron Throne ) that she should land in Dorne in order to go to King's Landing (go south to go north), while Dany will mistakenly land in the Vale instead (going north to go south.)

Please tell me I'm not the first to catch this.

I know @Fire Eater and others have concluded that Daenerys will hit the Vale first, but I don't recall whether this was part of it. 

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The George gives us the tale of the Night's King when Bran et al. enter the Nightfort...

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The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan’s stories, the tale of Night’s King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

Bran IV, Storm 56

From this tale we see that a watchman set himself up as a king, with his seat at the Nightfort, after he had become ensorceled by a female Other. He sacrificed to the Others, presumably like Craster, and he was eventually brought down by the Lord of Stark and the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Old Nan suggests that there might have been a kinslaying element involved, but as the passage below suggests, this may have just been a flourish for young Bran's entertainment. 

Although the Night's King is referred to in passing a few more times, we don't learn anything else in the novels, but we get a little clarification in The World of Ice and Fire...

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The oldest of these tales concern the legendary Night’s King, the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, who was alleged to have bedded a sorceress pale as a corpse and declared himself a king. For thirteen years the Night’s King and his “corpse queen” ruled together, before King of Winter, Brandon the Breaker, (in alliance, it is said, with the King-Beyond-the-Wall, Joramun) brought them down. Thereafter, he obliterated the Night’s King’s very name from memory.

In the Citadel, the archmaesters largely dismiss these tales—though some allow that there may have been a Lord Commander who attempted to carve out a kingdom for himself in the earliest days of the Watch. Some suggest that perhaps the corpse queen was a woman of the Barrowlands, a daughter of the Barrow King who was then a power in his own right, and oft associated with graves. The Night’s King has been said to have been variously a Bolton, a Woodfoot, an Umber, a Flint, a Norrey, or even a Stark, depending on where the tale is told. Like all tales, it takes on the attributes that make it most appealing to those who tell it.

The Wall and Beyond, The Night's Watch, TWOIAF

That's it. That's all we know about the Night's King.

The ASOIAF character that bears the strongest association to the Night’s King is King Stannis, who will claim the Nightfort as his royal seat soon after Bran recalls Old Nan's tale. He appears have been ensorceled by a pale woman. And although we don't have a connection with the Others, he has sacrificed and made those shadowbabies, and he just might be fixing to sacrifice his daughter. I wonder who will bring him down? 

Or maybe Melisandre and Sylese will burn Shireen on teir own, believing Stannis to be dead. In that case, I would expect Melisandre to share a fate similar to that of another foreign temptress, Serala of Myr, called as the Lace Serpent...

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"The Lace Serpent was burned alive, poor woman, though her tongue was torn out first, and her female parts, with which it was said that she had enslaved her lord. Half of Duskendale will still tell you that Aerys was too kind to her."

Breinne II, Feast 9

And perhaps Sylese will hang herself (I can't imagine where that idea came from.) With those two out of the picture, might Stannis take another bride, perhaps a lady of the North? ...

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Some suggest that perhaps the “corpse queen” was a woman of the Barrowlands, a daughter of the Barrow King, who was then a power in his own right, and oft associated with graves.

The Wall and Beyond, The Night's Watch, TWOIAF

If Stannis were to wed Barbrey Dustin, we would have the Night's King and his corpse Queen redux. 

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We look at mountains and call them eternal, and so they seem . . . but in the course of time, mountains rise and fall, rivers change their courses, stars fall from the sky, and great cities sink beneath the sea. Even gods die, we think. Everything changes.

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mountains rise and fall,

Gregor's reanimation and eventual defeat?

The Eyrie's fall and volcanic activity raising a new mountain?

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rivers change their courses

Brynden Rivers changing plan?

A literal river engineering? It'd have to be the Trident as no other river has the importance to make it an event worth including.

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stars fall from the sky

Shiera's death?

Otherwise a literal star fall. Star falls theoretically have brought sword dawn to the earth. The Blood Emperor worshipped a black stone from the sky.

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and great cities sink beneath the sea.

Here he's meaning to refer to Valyria, but that does nothing for the future.

Dragonstone may sink due to volcanic activity. A city beneath the sea may be uncovered when the sea runs dry.

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Even gods die,

Euron's eventual death after he becomes a god as he intends.

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I just saw this passage pointed out elsewhere:

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Every visible symbol of legitimacy belonged to Aegon. He sat the Iron Throne. He lived in the Red Keep. He wore the Conquerer’s crown, wielded the Conquerer’s sword, and had been anointed by a septon of the Faith before the eyes of tens of thousands. Grand Maester Orwyle sat in his councils, and the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard had placed the crown upon his princely head. And he was male, which in the eyes of many made him the rightful king, his half sister the usurper. (The Princess and the Queen)

Much of this could apply to fAegon during the Second Dance of the Dragons too. It reminded me of this post I read a while back about how fAegon could acquire the Conqueror's crown and sword (and perhaps even Rhaegar's armor):

(Spoilers TWOW) Aegon's Epic Loot

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3 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

I just saw this passage pointed out elsewhere:

Much of this could apply to fAegon during the Second Dance of the Dragons too. It reminded me of this post I read a while back about how fAegon could acquire the Conqueror's crown and sword (and perhaps even Rhaegar's armor):

(Spoilers TWOW) Aegon's Epic Loot

Like a road map. 

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I haven't seen this brought up in these threads (I got as far as thread #10). This is part of a larger thing I'm working on that will be posted elsewhere, but I think these quotes are kind of fascinating when we put them together.

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"I hit him. Ser Jorah, do you think...he'll be so angry when he gets back...I woke the dragon, didn't I?"
"Can you wake the dead, girl? Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, and he died on the Trident. Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake." (Jorah, Dany, Dany III, AGOT)

 

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"Your father is dead, lad. Do you think you can bring him back?"
"No." (Jeor Mormont, Jon, Jon IX, AGOT) 

These two quotes taken together are actually a lot of fun. 

First things first, and let's get it out of the way, the possible Rhaegar connection between what Jorah asks Dany and what Jeor Mormont asks Jon. It's something I always found funny, connecting Jon to Rhaegar through the Dany/Jorah exchange. We can also go tinfoil on this, though when it comes to bringing people back from the dead, I don't know if we can call it tinfoil anymore.

The most important thing though is that Viserys had been using "waking the dragon" as him turning into a rage monster and hurting Dany, but Jorah applies "waking the dragon" to Rhaegar who is dead. So this is the first time we get "waking the dragon" as this abstract idea of resurrection. But it's so easily ignored in the text because dead is dead, and Viserys's interpretation of waking the dragon is him being douchey and violent to his sister.

Then we get introduced to Melisandre who talks about "waking dragons from stone" which is what Dany did at the end of AGOT. But still resurrection is not something I'm looking at as a reader because it's supposed to be impossible, and we have wights running around north and south of the Wall, but the wights that are raised by the Others are worst off than Beric or Lady Stoneheart. They're not much of anything anymore. 

And at the end of Dance, Jon is stabbed, and I think most of us believe that he warged into Ghost and that's where he's chillin' until whatever happens happens.

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"The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him... and he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash." (Jaime, Jaime V, ASOS) 

And this line had me wondering for a while.

I tend to not pay a whole lot of attention to Aerys, because we are constantly told that he was crazy. He was mad and erratic, he is has shown a streak of unspeakable violence. But I question how mad he really was.

Is there something in the scrolls that says a dead Targaryen will return as a dragon? Was Aerys really crazy or did he read this somewhere and believed it? Aerys thinks he'll be resurrected as a dragon, and maybe that's the reason the Targaryens burn their dead (I know the Velaryons do too), because one of them is supposed to be reborn as a dragon. We know dragon is used metaphorically/interchangeably for the Targs. Rhaegar was the Dragon Prince, Dany is the Dragon Queen, Aemon was known as the Dragonknight, Daeron was the Young Dragon. 

Daeron the Drunkard has a vision of a black dragon dying and that turns out to be Baelor Breakspear. And there are several examples like this one, with the Daeron's dream of the dragons returning and Aerys the First reading about it in his scrolls. This prophecy is also two fold. While 3 actual dragons did hatch, Daeron and Aerys have no way of knowing that the Targaryens are nearly gone from the world. All they know is that there are no more fire breathing winged puppies. So the prophecy can be interpreted as the Targaryens making a come back. 

And this brings me back to what Jaime said about Aerys, that he believed that fire would transform him and he would rise again, reborn a dragon. What if Aerys's belief that he will be reborn as a dragon is part of the larger prophecy that we don't know about, that someone will go into the fire to be transformed and reborn as a dragon? 

I know this is something we are expecting anyway, but I do like the connection.

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2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I haven't seen this brought up in these threads (I got as far as thread #10). This is part of a larger thing I'm working on that will be posted elsewhere, but I think these quotes are kind of fascinating when we put them together.

 

These two quotes taken together are actually a lot of fun. 

First things first, and let's get it out of the way, the possible Rhaegar connection between what Jorah asks Dany and what Jeor Mormont asks Jon. It's something I always found funny, connecting Jon to Rhaegar through the Dany/Jorah exchange. We can also go tinfoil on this, though when it comes to bringing people back from the dead, I don't know if we can call it tinfoil anymore.

The most important thing though is that Viserys had been using "waking the dragon" as him turning into a rage monster and hurting Dany, but Jorah applies "waking the dragon" to Rhaegar who is dead. So this is the first time we get "waking the dragon" as this abstract idea of resurrection. But it's so easily ignored in the text because dead is dead, and Viserys's interpretation of waking the dragon is him being douchey and violent to his sister.

Then we get introduced to Melisandre who talks about "waking dragons from stone" which is what Dany did at the end of AGOT. But still resurrection is not something I'm looking at as a reader because it's supposed to be impossible, and we have wights running around north and south of the Wall, but the wights that are raised by the Others are worst off than Beric or Lady Stoneheart. They're not much of anything anymore. 

And at the end of Dance, Jon is stabbed, and I think most of us believe that he warged into Ghost and that's where he's chillin' until whatever happens happens.

And this line had me wondering for a while.

I tend to not pay a whole lot of attention to Aerys, because we are constantly told that he was crazy. He was mad and erratic, he is has shown a streak of unspeakable violence. But I question how mad he really was.

Is there something in the scrolls that says a dead Targaryen will return as a dragon? Was Aerys really crazy or did he read this somewhere and believed it? Aerys thinks he'll be resurrected as a dragon, and maybe that's the reason the Targaryens burn their dead (I know the Velaryons do too), because one of them is supposed to be reborn as a dragon. We know dragon is used metaphorically/interchangeably for the Targs. Rhaegar was the Dragon Prince, Dany is the Dragon Queen, Aemon was known as the Dragonknight, Daeron was the Young Dragon. 

Daeron the Drunkard has a vision of a black dragon dying and that turns out to be Baelor Breakspear. And there are several examples like this one, with the Daeron's dream of the dragons returning and Aerys the First reading about it in his scrolls. This prophecy is also two fold. While 3 actual dragons did hatch, Daeron and Aerys have no way of knowing that the Targaryens are nearly gone from the world. All they know is that there are no more fire breathing winged puppies. So the prophecy can be interpreted as the Targaryens making a come back. 

And this brings me back to what Jaime said about Aerys, that he believed that fire would transform him and he would rise again, reborn a dragon. What if Aerys's belief that he will be reborn as a dragon is part of the larger prophecy that we don't know about, that someone will go into the fire to be transformed and reborn as a dragon? 

I know this is something we are expecting anyway, but I do like the connection.

You might want to include this into your ideas...

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"Aerion the Monstrous?" Jon knew that name. "The Prince Who Thought He Was a Dragon" was one of Old Nan's more gruesome tales. His little brother Bran had loved it.

"The very one, though he named himself Aerion Brightflame. One night, in his cups, he drank a jar of wildfire, after telling his friends it would transform him into a dragon, but the gods were kind and it transformed him into a corpse." 

Jon I, Clash 6

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I don't know if this is moments of foreshadowing, or, wow! I never noticed that, because it sorta fits both ^_^

A Storm of Swords - Sansa IV

"A book every king should read, Your Grace," said Ser Kevan.
"My father had no time for books." Joffrey shoved the tome across the table. "If you read less, Uncle Imp, perhaps Lady Sansa would have a baby in her belly by now." He laughed . . . and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him. "Don't be sad, Sansa, once I've gotten Queen Margaery with child I'll visit your bedchamber and show my little uncle how it's done."
 

A Storm of Swords - Jaime IX

Defeated in the Whispering Wood by the Young Wolf Robb Stark during the War of the Five Kings. Held captive at Riverrun and ransomed for a promise unfulfilled. Captured again by the Brave Companions, and maimed at the word of Vargo Hoat their captain, losing his sword hand to the blade of Zollo the Fat. Returned safely to King's Landing by Brienne, the Maid of Tarth.
When he was done, more than three-quarters of his page still remained to be filled between the gold lion on the crimson shield on top and the blank white shield at the bottom. Ser Gerold Hightower had begun his history, and Ser Barristan Selmy had continued it, but the rest Jaime Lannister would need to write for himself. He could write whatever he chose, henceforth.
Whatever he chose . . .

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I don't believe it will play out this way, but a lot of folks suspect that Sansa will end up with Aegon. If that does turn out to be where she's headed, the story of Sharra Arryn could foreshadow how she gets there. Sharra ruled the Vale as her son Ronnel's regent. After Aegon the Dragon took the Riverlands and the Storm Lands, she offered her hand to the Dragon if Aegon would name her son as his heir. The Dragon rejected the offer, with Maester Yandel noting that Sharra was a faded flower. Perhaps Sansa will slay Petyr the savage giant and rule the Eyrie. I am not buying it, but I think many if not most of y'all are. And perhaps our wee Aegon will solidify his gains in the Storm Lands. Perhaps Sansa will offer her hand if our wee Aegon confirms young Robert as Lord of the Eyrie and Warden of the East. This time, the flower in the Vale would not be faded. I don't think that's the way it's going, but that's one way a pawn might become a player. 

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Sansa doesn't need anyone to confirm Robert as Lord of the Eyrie, he is the only one acceptable as Lord of the Eyrie to those below.

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Reasons why certain houses and individuals might oppose Aegon and/or Daenerys...

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When the Dragon passed at the age of four-and-sixty, his reign had been uncontested by all save the Dornishmen. He had ruled wisely: showing himself well during his royal progresses, displaying due deference to the High Septons, rewarding those who served well, and aiding those who required it. Yet beneath the surface of this largely peaceful rule was a roiling cauldron of dissent. In their hearts, many of his subjects still cherished the old days, when the Great Houses ruled their own domains with unquestioned sovereignty. Others wished vengeance, for loved ones killed in the wars. And still others saw the Targaryens as abominations: brothers wed to sisters, with their incestuous couplings producing misbegotten heirs. The strength of Aegon and his sisters—and their dragons—had been enough to subdue those who opposed them, but the same could not be said for their heirs.

Aenys I, The Targaryen Kings, TWOIAF

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The meal was served by three novices, well-scrubbed girls of good birth between the ages of twelve and sixteen. In their soft white woolens, each seemed more innocent and unworldly than the last, yet the High Septon had insisted that no girl spend more than seven days in the queen's service, lest Cersei corrupt her.

This is really for Sansa.

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6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

This is really for Sansa.

What do you mean? That Cersei corrupted Sansa, or will corrupt her, or that Sansa will corrupt others? 

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2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

What do you mean? That Cersei corrupted Sansa, or will corrupt her, or that Sansa will corrupt others? 

That Sansa has been corrupted by Cersei. Good birth, between 12 and 16, innocent and unworldly. Unworldly really gives it away. Can't let such girls spend too much time with Cersei or they'll get corrupted.

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4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

That Sansa has been corrupted by Cersei. Good birth, between 12 and 16, innocent and unworldly. Unworldly really gives it away. Can't let such girls spend too much time with Cersei or they'll get corrupted.

Or killed. Boys too. 

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Just noticing how much Jon's chapters foreshadow the war for the dawn.

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We should have twenty trebuchets, not two, and they should be mounted on sledges and turntables so we could move them. It was a futile thought. He might as well wish for another thousand men, and maybe a dragon or three.

(ASoS, Ch.64 Jon VIII)

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wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees.
“Stand fast,” Jon Snow called. “Throw them back.” He stood atop the Wall, alone. “Flame,” he cried, “feed them flame,” but there was no one to pay heed.
They are all gone. They have abandoned me.
Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.
The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled...

(ADwD, Ch.58 Jon XII)

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