Is Barristan Simply Wrong About Meraxes?

[Smirking Knight]

From The Queensguard:

Ser Barristan had heard that too. “It is no simple thing to slay a dragon in the sky. In Westeros, many tried to bring down Aegon and his sisters. None succeeded.”

Meraxes took a scorpion bolt right to the eyeball while flying over Hellholt - is this not widely known, is Barristan simply wrong, or is he trying to comfort Missandei?

[John Suburbs]

Nice catch. Could be an indication that Meraxes was already grounded when he was slain? Or maybe he knows some secret history about that battle and the whole scorpion-through-the-eye story is BS.

One thing is for sure, The Ullers certainly come away with an incredible prize for their trouble: dragon blood, dragon flesh, dragon scales, dragon brains... The magical possibilities are endless.

[Smirking Knight]

My only other theory is that Maester fudged things a bit to make the dragons seem more vulnerable. It's no secret that the Citadel has some secrets on how to kill dragons (a potential reason for the Faceless Man's infiltration) so perhaps Yandel is obscuring what truly brought down Meraxes. 

[JLE]

Which may in turn indicate why one of their most treasured possessions is a book called "The Death Of Dragons" - which I assume to be the real target of both the Faceless Men (in the person of the man we once knew as Jaqen H'ghar, currently masquerading as Pate the Apprentice) and Euron Greyjoy - whether they are working together, or in opposition with the Faceless Men trying to remove the book from Oldtown before Euron can sack the place?

[Smirking Knight]

I definitely think the FM is after The Death of Dragons and/or similarly themed knowledge but it seems strange to me that Euron would go to all the effort of ensuring their arrival in Westeros only to kill them. Whether or not the specific FM that infiltrated the Citadel is working at the behest of the FM organization as a whole, for a client, or for himself is also a bit of a mystery to me. Given their origins, though, it would not shock me if the FM organization as a whole wants the necessary tools to kill dragons now that they're back in the world, and based on Arya's chapters it does seem like they have at least some top-down management and overall goals. 

[Liver and Onions]

Nice catch. Barristan could be mistaken or just brushing aside the sheer fluke/extremely good shot that may have taken down Meraxes. Unless he's heard a different story than what was in AWOIAF... It's possible the Targaryens he served might have had their own take on the death of one of the original Three, perhaps lying to themselves in the process. 

Maybe Rhaenys had landed to speak to the Ullers, and someone had a concealed scorpion covered up with a big cloth or something? 

[Smirking Knight]

According to Yandel (an admittedly dubious source), Meraxes' fall took half of the castle with it. That seems more difficulty to fake than someone plunking a ballista shot in its eyeball post mortem.

Agreed that in the grand scheme of the number of times people have tried to shoot down dragons was a very lucky shot, but I find it strange that Barristan limited his answer just to Aegon and his sisters when 1/3 died from the specific way the Yunkish are attempting. During the Dance at least one dragon (Stormcloud) got tagged by a scorpion although it stayed aloft and died later IIRC. 

[John Suburbs]

Another thought:

Hitting a dragon in the eye in mid-flight is probably the most difficult thing in the world to do. To practice, there is probably no better way than to get good at shooting apples that your buddy throws over a river.

[Smirking Knight]

I agree that "Alleras" has Chekhov's bow and arrow but I've always thought, given the proximity of the characters, the arrow would end up in the eye of a certain 

Spoiler

Valyrian armor-wearing Greyjoy.

 

[Whitering]

He didn't say it was impossible, but let's assume there's like a 1/100 chance or worse to pick out the eye of a flying creature with a ballista (not the most accurate weapon), he's right to say it's no simple thing.

[Smirking Knight]

Right, but he says explicitly that no one managed to shoot down Aegon I and his sisters. It might have been an oversight between when GRRM wrote ADWD and AWOIAF, or Barristan could simply forget his history, but for argument's sake I'm hoping that there's more to it. 

[Whitering]

On 3/10/2017 at 1:41 PM, Smirking Knight said:

Right, but he says explicitly that no one managed to shoot down Aegon I and his sisters. It might have been an oversight between when GRRM wrote ADWD and AWOIAF, or Barristan could simply forget his history, but for argument's sake I'm hoping that there's more to it. 

I mean, he could be hoping nobody manages to and is dissuading them from taking that road. He still serves Dany, and if he is nostalgic for the Targs, well, the highlight of their time in Westeros was when they had dragons.

[JNR]

On 3/2/2017 at 3:03 PM, Smirking Knight said:

Ser Barristan had heard that too. “It is no simple thing to slay a dragon in the sky. In Westeros, many tried to bring down Aegon and his sisters. None succeeded.”

That is from canon written by GRRM.

On 3/2/2017 at 3:03 PM, Smirking Knight said:

Meraxes took a scorpion bolt right to the eyeball while flying over Hellholt

That is from non-canon, primarily not written by GRRM.

[shadows and dust]

On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 1:42 PM, JNR said:

That is from canon written by GRRM.

 

Canon in that he wrote it, not that it's factual.

There are plenty of characters who have said things that are not true.

[JNR]

12 hours ago, shadows and dust said:

Canon in that he wrote it, not that it's factual.

There are plenty of characters who have said things that are not true.

That's absolutely the case... but the World book is fundamentally different from canon in that GRRM has explicitly told us it's full of questionable content that is intended to suit the interests of Robert and his supposed heirs.

Quote

The book is written from the viewpoint of a maester at the Citadel, one who hopes to pass its knowledge on to someone sitting on the Iron Throne. As such, the author may have ... rearranged events to suit the interests of a particular royal family. "So who knows if it's really true or not!" Martin chuckled. Furthermore, the maester's knowledge comes from other scrolls that, in turn, may be unreliable.

The author of the World book, Maester Yandel, is a suckup, in other words.

For instance, the idea that a Targ dragon was brought down in mid-air via a bolt to the eye would probably please Robert Baratheon, who hated Targs, quite a bit.  It's not too surprising to find it in the World book.

Barristan Selmy seems more interested in history, though, which is why he tells Dany the truth about her father even though she may not wish to know it.  I choose to believe him over Yandel.

[Smirking Knight]

19 hours ago, JNR said:

That's absolutely the case... but the World book is fundamentally different from canon in that GRRM has explicitly told us it's full of questionable content that is intended to suit the interests of Robert and his supposed heirs.

The author of the World book, Maester Yandel, is a suckup, in other words.

For instance, the idea that a Targ dragon was brought down in mid-air via a bolt to the eye would probably please Robert Baratheon, who hated Targs, quite a bit.  It's not too surprising to find it in the World book.

Barristan Selmy seems more interested in history, though, which is why he tells Dany the truth about her father even though she may not wish to know it.  I choose to believe him over Yandel.

Excellent point - but it still has me wondering: *something* brought down Meraxes over Hellholt, what was it???

[LyonelTheStormKing]

Quote

It is no simple thing to slay a dragon in the sky

Simple: Meraxes died on the ground and wasn't slain in the sky. 

Or the maester was diminishing the power of the Targaryens to please Robert, which is likely, and Barristan knew this (or just chose to ignore it, if he believes Meraxes was slain in the air, to please Dany)

[Kyll.Ing.]

I guess it was for the comfort: " It is no simple thing to slay a dragon in the sky. In Westeros, many tried to bring down Aegon and his sisters. And somebody succeeded in the end. But that was a lucky shot, and we don't know who fired it. And they lost half their castle for it, and it made Aegon, like, super-mad.”

Anyway, Barristan is a martial man. Even though every other person in this universe seems to have learned the entire history of Westeros by heart, it's not unreasonable to assume he just forgot that bit of the dragon-downing at Hellholt. It could be he was thinking about the wars around Aegon's Conquest, or general assassination attempts later, and in the spur of the moment totally forgot the separate war in Dorne several years later.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 3/16/2017 at 1:42 PM, JNR said:

That is from non-canon, primarily not written by GRRM.

The Princess and the Queen was written by GRRM, and credited to Archmaester Gyldayn, and it records the statement that, "Scorpions were cranked upwards to loose iron bolts of the sort that had once felled Meraxes in Dorne." This can't be passed off as being written by someone other than GRRM, or as written in-story to please Robert.

[JNR]

That's true, but that content is still not POV fiction.  Virtually everything in the two novellas comes secondhand, not observed or thought or felt.

In this sense it is wildly different from the canon, which is nothing but POV fiction... which makes much more of the information trustworthy. 

For instance, if Ned thinks the Winterfell crypts are cold, while walking down the crypt stairs, he's experiencing that in that moment, and you know for sure the crypts are really cold.  Can't be doubted.   When he hears Robert say Lyanna was more beautiful than her statue, we know for sure Robert really said that (though not that that's objectively true).   

But the maester who wrote TPATQ was not a POV character who was there at the time, didn't see it happen, and he came by the information in a less certain way.

Quote

Several differing tales were told afterward of how and why the dragon fell. Some claimed a crossbowman put an iron bolt through his eye, but this version seems suspiciously similar to the way Meraxes met her end, long ago in Dorne.

This doesn't make me feel confident we know the truth about what happened to Meraxes "long ago" -- only that Gyldayn thinks we do.