The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

[LmL]

17 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Do you think it will be a quarter moon that will survive?

I think it will be a rocky moon with no more ice covering, more like the non-magical moon we have today. It will be a hint of the "no more magic" ending trope.

17 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

As to Dany's shoes, it sounds like a reference to the song The Queen Took Off her Sandal, the King took off her Crown. If the shoes are referencing skinchanging, the significance in the Queen and the King taking off their objects of power seems to be giving up power. I know the song is usually sung during a bedding and doesn't Tyrion say something about being the same in dark which is similar to what the first Daenerys said about the children at the Water Gardens. 

Nice tip, I'll have to ponder that.

@Crowfood's Daughter, here is your Grey King as a reborn, weakened sun:

Quote

 

Yet as one smell drew them onward, others warned them back. He sniffed at the drifting smoke. Men, many men, many horses, and fire, fire, fire. No smell was more dangerous, not even the hard cold smell of iron, the stuff of man-claws and hardskin. The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars.

All through the night the fires crackled, and once there was a great roar and a crash that made the earth jump under his feet. (meteor impact) Dogs barked and whined and horses screamed (Nissa = gallows horse tree) in terror. Howls shuddered through the night; the howls of the man-pack, wails of fear and wild shouts, laughter and screams (agony and ecstasy). No beast was as noisy as man. He pricked up his ears and listened, and his brother growled at every sound. They prowled under the trees as a piney wind blew ashes and embers through the sky. In time the flames began to dwindle, and then they were gone. The sun rose grey and smoky that morning.

Only then did he leave the trees, stalking slow across the fields. His brother ran with him, drawn to the smell of blood and death. They padded silent through the dens the men had built of wood and grass and mud. Many and more were burned and many and more were collapsed; others stood as they had before. Yet nowhere did they see or scent a living man. Crows blanketed the bodies and leapt into the air screeching when his brother and he came near. The wild dogs slunk away before them.

 

So, WF, a moon city, burns, and a dragon hatches, fire eats the stars, smoke, ash cloud, a long night. Wails and screams and crash on the earth. Now "man" is prowling under trees and getting covered in the blowing ash. The two wolves a reborn from the trees, and they are brothers. And there's our grey, smoky, diminished sun. 

[LmL]

4 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I like this concept of the three. Well it fits with Maester Cressen standing in between the the hellhound and the wyvern. Maester Cressen is Black Jack Bulwer, the Wyvern is Garth Greyfeather and the Hellhound is Hairy Hal or something like that because remember that all three stand on a wall or a hinge. I know for sure that Maester Cressen and Black Jack are equivalents since Maester Cressen died with Patchface's horned helm on him. 

Mya Stone, Catelyn Tully, and a white mule go into the weirwood portal thingee (which is between the bloody gate / gates of the moon as the fire moon / burning tree symbol, to the Eyrie, which is the ice moon / dead weirwood symbol). That might be a correlation. I will have to look for others. It's tricky because the fool / facilitator role can be merged with the tree, or it can be an object like a mule or substance which facilitates. It really does remind me of slaying multiple kings to wake a dragon, or to theories I have read about creating the blood of the dragon in the first place. 

[Crowfood's Daughter]

8 minutes ago, LmL said:

I think it will be a rocky moon with no more ice covering, more like the non-magical moon we have today. It will be a hint of the "no more magic" ending trope.

Nice tip, I'll have to ponder that.

@Crowfood's Daughter, here is your Grey King as a reborn, weakened sun:

So, WF, a moon city, burns, and a dragon hatches, fire eats the stars, smoke, ash cloud, a long night. Wails and screams and crash on the earth. Now "man" is prowling under trees and getting covered in the blowing ash. The two wolves a reborn from the trees, and they are brothers. And there's our grey, smoky, diminished sun. 

Wow! that is nice!!!  I'm telling you they are brothers!

[LmL]

1 minute ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

Wow! that is nice!!!  I'm telling you they are brothers!

Yes, i bought your theory as soon as i read it - I had stumbled upon the general pattern of green garth and red AA, of Garth as a king of summer and life, and AA as the King of Winter, but hadn't found the Goodbrother stuff and hadn't perceived the curse of the FK as a link between them. The only modification we've made to your theory is that each side has a hint of the other, because they are always transforming. Grey King has a hint of a fertile past, and some garths are turning grey. In the symbolic sense, they are 'brothers' like the oak and holly king are brothers, although in any given example it can be an uncle and a nephew, brother and bastard, father and son, whatever. 

In many corn king myths, the resurrection is performed by the moon goddess. Astarte resurrects Ba'al, Isis resurrects Osiris (who has green skin btw), and the three-fold goddess resurrects the Horned God. I believe this is like the ww / fire moon facilitating rebirth of AA the solar comet as AA the sun-fertilized moon meteor.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

BTW, have you seen how the Ironborn depict their drowned god?-----> http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Sunderly

 

Forsaken chapter spoilers
 

Spoiler

 

A drowned man, pink and pale, floating upright in a blue-green sea, his hair streaming upwards, as fish nibble at his limbs.  All gods are lies, but yours is laughable. A pale white thing in the likeness of a man, his limbs broken and swollen and his hair flipping in the water while fish nibble at his face. What fool would worship that?”

 

 

Impaled upon the longer spikes were the bodies of the gods. The Maiden was there and the Father and the Mother, the Warrior and Crone and Smith...even the Stranger. They hung side by side with all manner of queer foreign gods: the Great Shepherd and the Black Goat, three-headed Trios and the Pale Child Bakkalon, the Lord of Light and the butterfly god of Naath. And there, swollen and green, half­-devoured by crabs, the Drowned God festered with the rest, seawater still dripping from his hair. 

 

Later he turns greenish in the shade of the evening vision.

[Unchained]

3 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

Agree.  Agree Fiery (Cain, Grim Reaper, Lucifer, Prometheus)AA vs LH and his twelve disciples.  

I am still seeing brothers here, but I think there are lots of possibilities even with this type of configuration, they could be Half-brothers (maybe one bastard? hence all the talk about how evil and untrustworthy bastards are in the current storyline), good-brothers (brothers in law, grey king married a Mermaid and there is always talk about the woman in the AA tales). If the Amethyst Empress is important in the Long Night storyline, maybe she is the key to their relation.  I also see the possibility of a brotherhood of some sort such as the Night's watch or maybe the Order of the Green hand, maybe the Green men is a brotherhood of some sort.   

I may have found a clue about the AA character you are speaking of.  As I mentioned earlier, Morrigan was the name of one of the Tuatha De Danann (TDD? @Wizz-The-Smith we need you) and she was associated with crows like the one on house Morrigen's sigil.  The TDD had a battle that screams AA and moon destruction on a level I have not seen anywhere else, and the two main combatants sorta fit with the theme of this thread.  In the Second battle of Mag Tuireadh the TDD battle against an army led by a guy named Balor.  Balor is killed by a family member, unfortunately not a brother but a grandson.  Balor has an interesting physical feature, a third eye on his forehead that when opened cause things such as the death of plants and the world catching fire to happen.  Balor is killed by his grandson Lugh via a strike to his eye which turns its destructive power back on his own army. Lugh wields two weapons, a stone sling projectile and a fiery spear, and he uses one or both to strike Balor's eye and kill him, and in the process his entire force(Sauron?, Goliath?, The Mountain?, All three?).  When Balor falls, his eye burns a hole in the ground which fills with water and becomes a like called "Lake of the eye".  It is in County Sligo and is famous for emptying every now and then, the lake itself has a ridiculous number of different names today.  Anyway, this story is a great way to tie together a lot of your and @LmL's stuff and I think on both occasions where we see a Morrigen fight an AA character we are supposed to connect it to this battle.

 

               

[LmL]

1 minute ago, Unchained said:

I may have found a clue about the AA character you are speaking of.  As I mentioned earlier, Morrigan was the name of one of the Tuatha De Danann (TDD? @Wizz-The-Smith we need you) and she was associated with crows like the one on house Morrigen's sigil   The TDD had a battle that screams AA and moon destruction on a level I have not seen anywhere else, and the two main combatants sorta fits with the theme of this thread.  In the Second battle of Mag Tuireadh the TDD battle against an army led by a guy named Balor.  Balor is killed by a family member, unfortunately not a brother but a grandson.  Balor has an interesting physical feature, a third eye on his forehead that when opened cause things such as the death of plants and the world catching fire to happen.  Balor is killed by his grandson Lugh via a strike to his eye which turns its destructive power back on his own army. Lugh wields two weapons, a stone sling projectile and a fiery spear, and he uses one or both to strike Balor's eye and kill him, and in the process his entire force(Sauron?, Goliath?, The Mountain?, All three?).  When Balor falls, his eye burns a hole in the ground which fills with water and becomes a like called "Lake of the eye".  It is in County Sligo and is famous for emptying every now and then, the lake itself has a ridiculous number of different names today.  Anyway, this story is a great way to tie together a lot of your and @LmL's stuff and I think on both occasions where we see a Morrigen fight an AA character we are supposed to connect it to this battle.

 

               

Yeah, totally, I've run across that one too! There is a parallel lake and myth called "Loch Daerg," which is "the lake of the red eye."  It was turned red by a slain monster, and it's also supposedly the last refuge of the druids when they were being hunted by St. Patrick who thought of the druids as snakes, and used the metaphor of snakehunting... which is great becasue it gives us snake druid green men on the isle in the middle of the red eye lake.  As with the Balor evil eye / baleful eye stuff, it's just too much to be coincidence, and we already have caught Martin with his hand in this cookie jar many times. There is also a legend about King Daerg and Fingula and swans and the lake of the red eye... I read it a while ago. Basically, all of these ideas are things I am saving for my episode on the gods eye. But I hadn't made the Morrigen connection... sweet. The story really suggests the Gods Eye as being formed from a meteor impact, doesn't it? 

My idea of the God's Eye is that the moon is the black pupil - the moon as a black hole that drinks the light, in other words - and the sun as the iris. It's the eclipse formation, which my logos are all variations of. On the ground, the means the lake = the sun and the iris, and the Isle of Faces is the pupil and the moon. Isle of Faces is covered with weirwood faces, which are moon symbols. The lake looks to be set on fire many times, there's a line "the riverlands are awash and blood and flame from here to the gods eye" or something like that. Black water also flows from the gods eye, the waves of night. In the sky, the comet stabbing the God's Eye is like blinding the eye of God (the Odin idea again), and shutting that eye gave us the Long Night. If a meteor landed to create the God's Eye lake, it would just be one more layer of correlation.  Comet stabs the celestial God's Eye, the moon meteor stabs the terrestrial one.  This also means that we should find things that symbolize the deceased mother of dragons moon on the Isle of Faces... things like black stone, or horned lords that might be dragon-like or lizard like.

The cotf are lizard like btw, with their black claws and their four fingered hands (like reptiles) and their "scales" (a nickname of one of the cotf given by bran) and slitted eyes which can look like a cat's OR like a snake's, they live underground like lizard people... it's a theory I heard one time, can't get it out of my head. 

Anyway, my money is on black stone obelisks at the least, perhaps a oily stone fortress like Moat Cailin, maybe just a big meteorite, who knows. If it didn't land there to form the island, we should at least see oily stone that was carried there. 

[Crowfood's Daughter]

37 minutes ago, Unchained said:

I may have found a clue about the AA character you are speaking of.  As I mentioned earlier, Morrigan was the name of one of the Tuatha De Danann (TDD? @Wizz-The-Smith we need you) and she was associated with crows like the one on house Morrigen's sigil   The TDD had a battle that screams AA and moon destruction on a level I have not seen anywhere else, and the two main combatants sorta fits with the theme of this thread.  In the Second battle of Mag Tuireadh the TDD battle against an army led by a guy named Balor.  Balor is killed by a family member, unfortunately not a brother but a grandson.  Balor has an interesting physical feature, a third eye on his forehead that when opened cause things such as the death of plants and the world catching fire to happen.  Balor is killed by his grandson Lugh via a strike to his eye which turns its destructive power back on his own army. Lugh wields two weapons, a stone sling projectile and a fiery spear, and he uses one or both to strike Balor's eye and kill him, and in the process his entire force(Sauron?, Goliath?, The Mountain?, All three?).  When Balor falls, his eye burns a hole in the ground which fills with water and becomes a like called "Lake of the eye".  It is in County Sligo and is famous for emptying every now and then, the lake itself has a ridiculous number of different names today.  Anyway, this story is a great way to tie together a lot of your and @LmL's stuff and I think on both occasions where we see a Morrigen fight an AA character we are supposed to connect it to this battle.

               

You know, I had linked Baelor the Blessed and Balor before so I am just going to share because I love this little nugget.  Baelor locked his sisters away in a tower because of prophesy not piety!

"The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father’s knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require a sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior'.” ASOS .

Now, Baelor I was equally studious to Rhaegar, and they both had similar resources, could it be possible that Baelor I also read the same scrolls?

GREEK MYTHOLOGY

The tale of Danae: King Acrisius prays for a son, but Apollo tells him he will never have a son, but that the son of his daughter will kill him. The only way to fully prevent this prophecy would be to kill his daughter, Danae, but Acrisius fears what the gods would do to him. Instead, he imprisons Danae in a bronze house without a roof and guards her carefully.Arcisius does not expect, that Zeus will come to her and impregnate her. Perseus is born and he sets Danae and Perseus in a box out in the ocean. As a grown man, Perseus enters a discus competition and his discus strikes his grandfather who was unknowingly and coincidentally in the audience fulfilling the prophesy.

Remember Daena Targaryen was one of the princesses locked in the maidenvault and eventually became the mother of Daemon Blackfyre.

CELTIC MYTHOLOGY

Further evidence in the tale of Balor. In this tale, Balor hears a druid's prophecy that he will be killed by his own grandson. To prevent this he imprisons his only daughter in the Tór Mór (great tower) of Tory Island. Mac Cinnfhaelaidh calls on a sídhe (fairy woman) who transports him by magic to Balor's tower, where he seduces Balor's daughter. In time she gives birth to triplets, which Balor gathers up in a sheet and sends to be drowned in a whirlpool. The messenger drowns two of the babies, but unwittingly drops one child into the harbor. The child grows into a man and eventually kills Balor.

So you can see, the myths all have something in common, a prophesy, a maiden locked in a tower, the maiden becoming pregnant , and the prophesy coming to fruition. Each myth eludes to the name of either Balor or Danae.

In ASOIAF, Baelor locks Daena in a tower, and Daena becomes miraculously pregnant and gives birth to the Blackfyre progenitor. 

Anyway, I had a long post about that a few years back, all boils down to kinslaying and prophesy.

 

 

[LmL]

Really nice @Crowfood's Daughter, that's terrific research. And there's the Tor word again too. 

I found the torn and tattered moon stitched back together btw:

Quote

 

Khaleesi?" Jhiqui hovered over her, a frightened doe.

The tent was drenched in shadow, still and close. Flakes of ash drifted upward from a brazier, and Dany followed them with her eyes through the smoke hole above. Flying, she thought. I had wings, I was flying. But it was only a dream. "Help me," she whispered, struggling to rise. "Bring me …" Her voice was raw as a wound,(that scream of agony and ecstasy tho)  and she could not think what she wanted. Why did she hurt so much? It was as if her body had been torn to pieces and remade from the scraps. "I want …"

"Yes, Khaleesi." Quick as that Jhiqui was gone, bolting from the tent, shouting. Dany needed … something … someone … what? It was important, she knew. It was the only thing in the world that mattered. She rolled onto her side and got an elbow under her, fighting the blanket tangled about her legs. It was so hard to move. The world swam dizzily. I have to …

 

That matches to this quote:

Quote

 

They rode to the lake the Dothraki called the Womb of the World, surrounded by a fringe of reeds, its water still and calm. A thousand thousand years ago, Jhiqui told her, the first man had emerged from its depths, riding upon the back of the first horse.

The procession waited on the grassy shore as Dany stripped and let her soiled clothing fall to the ground. Naked, she stepped gingerly into the water. Irri said the lake had no bottom, but Dany felt soft mud squishing between her toes as she pushed through the tall reeds. The moon floated on the still black waters, shattering and re-forming as her ripples washed over it. Goose pimples rose on her pale skin as the coldness crept up her thighs and kissed her lower lips. The stallion's blood had dried on her hands and around her mouth. Dany cupped her fingers and lifted the sacred waters over her head, cleansing herself and the child inside her while the khal and the others looked on. She heard the old women of the dosh khaleen muttering to each other as they watched, and wondered what they were saying.

When she emerged from the lake, shivering and dripping, her handmaid Doreah hurried to her with a robe of painted sandsilk, but Khal Drogo waved her away. He was looking on her swollen breasts and the curve of her belly with approval, and Dany could see the shape of his manhood pressing through his horsehide trousers, below the heavy gold medallions of his belt. She went to him and helped him unlace. Then her huge khal took her by the hips and lifted her into the air, as he might lift a child. The bells in his hair rang softly.

 

 

[Unchained]

45 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yeah, totally, I've run across that one too! There is a parallel lake and myth called "Loch Daerg," which is "the lake of the red eye."  It was turned red by a slain monster, and it's also supposedly the last refuge of the druids when they were being hunted by St. Patrick who thought of the druids as snakes, and used the metaphor of snakehunting... which is great becasue it gives us snake druid green men on the isle in the middle of the red eye lake.  As with the Balor evil eye / baleful eye stuff, it's just too much to be coincidence, and we already have caught Martin with his hand in this cookie jar many times. There is also a legend about King Daerg and Fingula and swans and the lake of the red eye... I read it a while ago. Basically, all of these ideas are things I am saving for my episode on the gods eye. But I hadn't made the Morrigen connection... sweet. The story really suggests the Gods Eye as being formed from a meteor impact, doesn't it? 

My idea of the God's Eye is that the moon is the black pupil - the moon as a black hole that drinks the light, in other words - and the sun as the iris. It's the eclipse formation, which my logos are all variations of. On the ground, the means the lake = the sun and the iris, and the Isle of Faces is the pupil and the moon. Isle of Faces is covered with weirwood faces, which are moon symbols. The lake looks to be set on fire many times, there's a line "the riverlands are awash and blood and flame from here to the gods eye" or something like that. Black water also flows from the gods eye, the waves of night. In the sky, the comet stabbing the God's Eye is like blinding the eye of God (the Odin idea again), and shutting that eye gave us the Long Night. If a meteor landed to create the God's Eye lake, it would just be one more layer of correlation.  Comet stabs the celestial God's Eye, the moon meteor stabs the terrestrial one.  This also means that we should find things that symbolize the deceased mother of dragons moon on the Isle of Faces... things like black stone, or horned lords that might be dragon-like or lizard like.

The cotf are lizard like btw, with their black claws and their four fingered hands (like reptiles) and their "scales" (a nickname of one of the cotf given by bran) and slitted eyes which can look like a cat's OR like a snake's, they live underground like lizard people... it's a theory I heard one time, can't get it out of my head. 

Anyway, my money is on black stone obelisks at the least, perhaps a oily stone fortress like Moat Cailin, maybe just a big meteorite, who knows. If it didn't land there to form the island, we should at least see oily stone that was carried there. 

Yea, I have a hard time believing that the God's eye is anything but a meteor lake at this point.  If the lake was created by the moon meteor then, I see it as being the third opened eye that happens when the celestial one is blinded.  The eye of the true gods was put out and one for the earthly greenseers was opened.  Also, Morrigan is a triple goddess of the sort that may expected to resurrect a horned god.  Usually a white horse takes someone to the Otherworld in the stories, and Lugh's son Cu Chulaind who is thought of as an incarnation (reborn version Azor Ahia) of him had a chariot drawn by two horses one named the 'grey of Macha(one of Morrigan's sisters)' and the other is 'black of Saingliu' and he is killed in the chariot.  There are the white, grey, and black psychpomps.  I really like the story about St. Patrick killing druids as another story behind him running off all the snakes.  Apart form figuring out ASoIaF, ruining everything I believed as a child is my favorite thing to find going through these comparisons.  I really like Santa(Satan and devil's bluster) = holly king and pan = summer oak king because I just thought of Santa Claus and Peter Pan fighting.  If that is not actually a correct way of thinking about them do not ruin it for me.  

 

@Crowfood's Daughter you probably already know, but Lugh is a storm god type.  Balon is a drought god, and Lugh as the child of the sun/sky and water gods is a storm god and the natural enemy of the drought.  So, it looks likely team garth threw the fiery spear.      

 

I figured I was not the first person to stumble upon Balon of the evil eye.  I guess I will forgive everyone for holding out on me.  

 

 

[LmL]

3 hours ago, Unchained said:

Yea, I have a hard time believing that the God's eye is anything but a meteor lake at this point.  If the lake was created by the moon meteor then, I see it as being the third opened eye that happens when the celestial one is blinded.  The eye of the true gods was put out and one for the earthly greenseers was opened.  

Yes, it all makes a lot of sense, except for the fact that for a crater to form a crater lake, it really should take tens of thousands of years if not hundreds of thousands. But I don't think that's such a big deal; it's fantasy. Anyway, I'm glad you see the logic of it.

3 hours ago, Unchained said:

Also, Morrigan is a triple goddess of the sort that may expected to resurrect a horned god.  

Exxxxactly. I think the weirwood might be the goddess here. 

3 hours ago, Unchained said:

Usually a white horse takes someone to the Otherworld in the stories,

Oh cool, the pale mare. Catelyn's white mule taking her up the Giant's Lance to the Eyrie. Sleipnir is grey, and we see that too of course, as you have pointed out so extensively.

3 hours ago, Unchained said:

and Lugh's son Cu Chulaind who is thought of as an incarnation (reborn version Azor Ahia) of him had a chariot drawn by two horses one named the 'grey of Macha(one of Morrigan's sisters)' and the other is 'black of Saingliu' and he is killed in the chariot.  There are the white, grey, and black psychpomps.  I really like the story about St. Patrick killing druids as another story behind him running off all the snakes.  

Yes, and it really works well for the idea of a crossover between horned green men and dragon people. 

3 hours ago, Unchained said:

Apart form figuring out ASoIaF, ruining everything I believed as a child is my favorite thing to find going through these comparisons.  I really like Santa(Satan and devil's bluster) = holly king and pan = summer oak king because I just thought of Santa Claus and Peter Pan fighting.  If that is not actually a correct way of thinking about them do not ruin it for me.  

LoL, that's actually perfect, I'm dying over here. 

3 hours ago, Unchained said:

 

@Crowfood's Daughter you probably already know, but Lugh is a storm god type.  Balon is a drought god, and Lugh as the child of the sun/sky and water gods is a storm god and the natural enemy of the drought.  So, it looks likely team garth threw the fiery spear.      

 

I figured I was not the first person to stumble upon Balon of the evil eye.  I guess I will forgive everyone for holding out on me.  

 

 

I had heard someone bring up part of this one time, and I looked into it a few months back.. set it aside for my Gods Eye essay and moved on. There's just so much information, both within ASOIAF and without... it's easy to forget about stuff you discovered or heard about a long time ago. I remembered the bit about the red eye and the last stronghold of the druids, and that there were other similar myths that needed investigating. The myth of Lir is interesting too. 

The last stronghold of the druids thing is such an on the nose thing for the Sacred Order of Green Men, it's not even funny. 

[Crowfood's Daughter]

5 hours ago, Unchained said:

Yea, I have a hard time believing that the God's eye is anything but a meteor lake at this point.  If the lake was created by the moon meteor then, I see it as being the third opened eye that happens when the celestial one is blinded.  The eye of the true gods was put out and one for the earthly greenseers was opened.  Also, Morrigan is a triple goddess of the sort that may expected to resurrect a horned god.  Usually a white horse takes someone to the Otherworld in the stories, and Lugh's son Cu Chulaind who is thought of as an incarnation (reborn version Azor Ahia) of him had a chariot drawn by two horses one named the 'grey of Macha(one of Morrigan's sisters)' and the other is 'black of Saingliu' and he is killed in the chariot.  There are the white, grey, and black psychpomps.  I really like the story about St. Patrick killing druids as another story behind him running off all the snakes.  Apart form figuring out ASoIaF, ruining everything I believed as a child is my favorite thing to find going through these comparisons.  I really like Santa(Satan and devil's bluster) = holly king and pan = summer oak king because I just thought of Santa Claus and Peter Pan fighting.  If that is not actually a correct way of thinking about them do not ruin it for me.  

 

@Crowfood's Daughter you probably already know, but Lugh is a storm god type.  Balon is a drought god, and Lugh as the child of the sun/sky and water gods is a storm god and the natural enemy of the drought.  So, it looks likely team garth threw the fiery spear.      

 

I figured I was not the first person to stumble upon Balon of the evil eye.  I guess I will forgive everyone for holding out on me.  

 

 

Yes!  It seems fertility and death are a type of natural enemy in myth legends and you will see the theme repeated so many times, it will make your head spin.  Another theme you will also see are the great flood myths.  The idea of a great flood being sent to usually sent by a deity to destroy civilization as an act of divine retribution is repeated in many cultures including Christianity.

Quote

  Parallels are often drawn between the flood waters of these myths and the primeval waters found in certain creation myths, as the flood waters are described as a measure for the cleansing of humanity, in preparation for rebirth. Most flood myths also contain a culture hero, who "represents the human craving for life".^[1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth

Who are Garth and the Grey King if not culture heroes ?

[GloubieBoulga]

11 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Hi Gloubie!  

It seems you are getting closer to answering your question and writing that brilliant essay!

Just a quick observation, did you notice that the sad 'wolf man' in the dream looks at the dreamer with 'mute appeal' -- those are the exact same words used to describe Jinglebell looking at Catelyn...'the lackwit looked at her with mute appeal.'  I think the 'mute appeal' intimates the dangerous secret -- that may not speak its name -- lying like a monster (or bastard!) at the very origin of Winterfell and the Starks, which you've been suggesting lies at the heart of the mystery of the saga, in general.

Here are the three quotes containing the 'code phrase' -- 'mute appeal':

(...)

And then this similar scene, in which Bran is the one watching in mute appeal: ("the last vision in Winterfell's weirwood, ADWD")

This might be one of GRRM's ambiguous sentence constructions.  'As his life flowed out of him...' could almost refer just as well to Bran as to the man being sacrificed.

I think the man being sacrificed is another Brandon!

So good catch with the "mute appeal" ! (another proof that many brains are better than only one !)

To go in the same way, look at this, from Jon when he try to escape Castle Black and the Watch after Ned's death (note that he could play here a kind of "maid in grey escaping a wedding on a dying horse"^^) : 

Quote

He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother's side and help avenge his father. (Jon IX, AGOT)

wording the true name = a sword for being beheaded. 

 

Ok, I will try to put in order my essay on the origins of the Stark. I have now ideas clear enough for that. Today if I can, or tomorrow. 

 

8 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I like this concept of the three.

Yes, 3 brothers and a woman, as BR explained it to Bran ^^: 

Quote

I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired.(Bran III, ADWD)

 

 

[ravenous reader]

Hi @Pain killer Jane   Could you elaborate a bit on your interpretation of what 'standing on the back of a fool' could mean?  It occurs to me that could be the greenseer like Bran standing / riding on Hodor the fool's back in order to wed the tree.  What do you and @LmL mean by the fool 'goes into the weirnet along with the greenseer'?

Spoiler

I'm thinking of the strange 'crossed time' connection the show depicted, with Hodor the lackwit looking at Bran across the courtyard with mute appeal and getting stuck in the time loop, holding the door.  The fool as sacrificial gatekeeper.

 

On 3/13/2017 at 10:58 PM, Pain killer Jane said:

This isn't really setting it on fire but it does speak to climbing the tree

Keep that image of Sansa's wedding gown and remember that she has coppery red hair

Seems like Sansa is the weirwood tree here and Tyrion is the person that climbed her and it's interesting he is standing on a fool's back. 

 

15 hours ago, LmL said:

@ravenous reader, @Pain killer Jane, regarding who goes into the ww net and how many, consider the three severed heads of the NW brothers whose eyes were cut out by the Weeper. Those heads were mounted in spears of ash, creating the image of a weirwood - ash tree with a bloody face weeping blood.  It also shows us a smoking meteor landing - the head of a bleeding star trailing ash - and finally, the column of rising ash and smoke that came from the impact location. There were three heads: Garth Greyfeather (green garth turning grey), Black Jack Bulwer (associated with drinking blood and bulls horns via the origins of House Bulwer), and Hairy Hal. Hairy Hal sounds like a wild man of the woods type, he might be the fool / cotf / enabler / gatekeeper / custodian. Garth is the sacrifice. The demonic bull is AA reborn. They all go into the net. Three heads of the dragon? An equivalent? 

Thoughts?

 

14 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I like this concept of the three. Well it fits with Maester Cressen standing in between the the hellhound and the wyvern. Maester Cressen is Black Jack Bulwer, the Wyvern is Garth Greyfeather and the Hellhound is Hairy Hal or something like that because remember that all three stand on a wall or a hinge. I know for sure that Maester Cressen and Black Jack are equivalents since Maester Cressen died with Patchface's horned helm on him. 

Can the two of you please explain the difference between the three archetypes to me in mythical astronomy terms; and what you mean, as I indicated above, about them 'all going into the net together'?  

GRRM presents us with so many trios, so the possibilities are endless.  What's your opinion of these three trees Jon encounters: the drunken ash on a hill who resembles dolorous Edd (maybe that's the grey figure); the chestnut (?hairy) watching the bridge...that one seems to be a gatekeeper; and the angry oak?  Which one would be the fool figure then?  (in this context it seems to be the first tree compared to Edd who always acts the clever fool, with his wise quips...).  Why is the first tree a 'drunk'?

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

A light snow began to fall as the column made its way south along the kingsroad, the long line of wagons wending past fields and streams and wooded hillsides, with a dozen spearmen and a dozen archers riding escort. The last few trips had seen some ugliness at Mole's Town, a little pushing and shoving, some muttered curses, a lot of sullen looks. Bowen Marsh felt it best not to take chances, and for once he and Jon were agreed. The Lord Steward led the way. Jon rode a few yards back, Dolorous Edd Tollett at his side. Half a mile south of Castle Black, Edd urged his garron close to Jon's and said, "M'lord? Look up there. The big drunkard on the hill."

The drunkard was an ash tree, twisted sideways by centuries of wind. And now it had a face. A solemn mouth, a broken branch for a nose, two eyes carved deep into the trunk, gazing north up the kingsroad, toward the castle and the Wall.

The wildlings brought their gods with them after all. Jon was not surprised. Men do not give up their gods so easily. The whole pageant that Lady Melisandre had orchestrated beyond the Wall suddenly seemed as empty as a mummer's farce. "Looks a bit like you, Edd," he said, trying to make light of it.

"Aye, m'lord. I don't have leaves growing out my nose, but else-wise ... Lady Melisandre won't be happy."

 

"She's not like to see it. See that no one tells her."

 

"She sees things in those fires, though."

 

"Smoke and cinders."

 

"And people burning. Me, most like. With leaves up my nose. I always feared I'd burn, but I was hoping to die first."

 

Jon glanced back at the face, wondering who had carved it. He had posted guards around Mole's Town, both to keep his crows away from the wildling women and to keep the free folk from slipping off southward to raid. Whoever had carved up the ash had eluded his sentries, plainly. And if one man could slip through the cordon, others could as well. I could double the guard again, he thought sourly. Waste twice as many men, men who might otherwise be walking the Wall.

The wagons continued on their slow way south through frozen mud and blowing snow. A mile farther on, they came upon a second face, carved into a chestnut tree that grew beside an icy stream, where its eyes could watch the old plank bridge that spanned its flow. "Twice as much trouble," announced Dolorous Edd.

The chestnut was leafless and skeletal, but its bare brown limbs were not empty. On a low branch overhanging the stream a raven sat hunched, its feathers ruffled up against the cold. When it spied Jon it spread its wings and gave a scream. When he raised his fist and whistled, the big black bird came flapping down, crying, "Corn, corn, corn. "

"Corn for the free folk," Jon told him. "None for you." He wondered if they would all be reduced to eating ravens before the coming winter had run its course.

 

The brothers on the wagons had seen this face as well, Jon did not doubt. No one spoke of it, but the message was plain to read for any man with eyes. Jon had once heard Mance Rayder say that most kneelers were sheep. "Now, a dog can herd a flock of sheep," the King-Beyond-the-Wall had said, "but free folk, well, some are shadowcats and some are stones. One kind prowls where they please and will tear your dogs to pieces. The other will not move at all unless you kick them." Neither shadowcats nor stones were like to give up the gods they had worshiped all their lives to bow down before one they hardly knew.

Just north of Mole's Town they came upon the third watcher, carved into the huge oak that marked the village perimeter, its deep eyes fixed upon the kingsroad. That is not a friendly face, Jon Snow reflected. The faces that the First Men and the children of the forest had carved into the weirwoods in eons past had stern or savage visages more oft than not, but the great oak looked especially angry, as if it were about to tear its roots from the earth and come roaring after them. Its wounds are as fresh as the wounds of the men who carved it.

Mole's Town had always been larger than it seemed; most of it was underground, sheltered from the cold and snow. That was more true than ever now. The Magnar of Thenn had put the empty village to the torch when he passed through on his way to attack Castle Black, and only heaps of blackened beams and old scorched stones remained aboveground ... but down beneath the frozen earth, the vaults and tunnels and deep cellars still endured, and that was where the free folk had taken refuge, huddled together in the dark like the moles from which the village took its name. The wagons drew up in a crescent in front of what had once been the village smithy. Nearby a swarm of red-faced children were building a snow fort, but they scattered at the sight of the black-cloaked brothers, vanishing down one hole or another. A few moments later the adults began to emerge from the earth. A stench came with them, the smell of unwashed bodies and soiled clothing, of nightsoil and urine. Jon saw one of his men wrinkle his nose and say something to the man beside him. Some jape about the smell of freedom, he guessed. Too many of his brothers were making japes about the stench of the savages in Mole's Town.

Pig ignorance, Jon thought. The free folk were no different than the men of the Night's Watch; some were clean, some dirty, but most were clean at times and dirty at other times. This stink was just the smell of a thousand people jammed into cellars and tunnels that had been dug to shelter no more than a hundred.

The wildlings had done this dance before. Wordless, they formed up in lines behind the wagons. There were three women for every man, many with children - pale skinny things clutching at their skirts. Jon saw very few babes in arms. The babes in arms died during the march, he realized, and those who survived the battle died in the king' s stockade. The fighters had fared better. Three hundred men of fighting age, Justin Massey had claimed in council. Lord Harwood Fell had counted them. There will be spearwives too. Fifty, sixty, maybe as many as a hundred. Fell's count had included men who had suffered wounds, Jon knew. He saw a score of those - men on crude crutches, men with empty sleeves and missing hands, men with one eye or half a face, a legless man carried between two friends. And every one grey-faced and gaunt. Broken men, he thought. The wights are not the only sort of living dead. Not all the fighting men were broken, though. Half a dozen Thenns in bronze scale armor stood clustered round one cellar stair, watching sullenly and making no attempt to join the others. In the ruins of the old village smithy Jon spied a big bald slab of a man he recognized as Halleck, the brother of Harma Dogshead. Harma's pigs were gone, though. Eaten, no doubt. Those two in furs were Hornfoot men, as savage as they were scrawny, barefoot even in the snow. There are wolves amongst these sheep, still.

Val had reminded him of that, on his last visit with her. "Free folk and kneelers are more alike than not, Jon Snow. Men are men and women women, no matter which side of the Wall we were born on. Good men and bad, heroes and villains, men of honor, liars, cravens, brutes ... we have plenty, as do you."

She was not wrong. The trick was telling one from the other, parting the sheep from the goats.

Then there's also this trio of shadows:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

He looked east, and saw a galley racing across the waters of the Bite. He saw his mother sitting alone in a cabin, looking at a bloodstained knife on a table in front of her, as the rowers pulled at their oars and Ser Rodrik leaned across a rail, shaking and heaving. A storm was gathering ahead of them, a vast dark roaring lashed by lightning, but somehow they could not see it.

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

How would that map onto the others?

ETA:  Do you think the three terms in the following Patchface trio refer to three archetypes?

'clever bird, clever man, clever fool'

[LmL]

7 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Can the two of you please explain the difference between the three archetypes to me in mythical astronomy terms; and what you mean, as I indicated above, about them 'all going into the net together'?  

I am super short on time but I wanted to answer this: usually, it would be the comet, the sun, and fire moon, since I have picked up several clues that the ice moon was close but not overlapping (I prefer it placed over head of the eclipse, to make the crescent horns, but I digress...).  The fire moon and sun align, then the comet collides, like a needle putting out the God's Eye. 

If it was a double eclipse, with both moons in front of the sun (the analog to the 'three-fold gate' which has to be aligned to allow passage), then we have to place the comet as a weapon or some other object passing through the various players. 

In terms of the act of entering the tree, we have the tree (NN), the sacrifice to open the tree's eyes (the comet) which combines with the tree to set it on fire, aka giving it a face. Now the sun can use the moon as an eye to look through, now the sun king can enter the wwnet. But he too is transformed by entering the burning tree. 

The thing about mythical astronomy is that Martin by necessity flexes it to fit the needs of the main story in a given scene. Sometimes the sun and the comet are played by two people, like Joffrey (the sun) sending the Cat's Paw (comet) to kill Bran. What Bran is seems to be undecided at the moment, but Cat is the important one in that scene, and she is the NN turning into a WW when struck by the sun's comet paw. Actually, you know what, since Bran is "asleep" and "in the weirwoodnet" right now, he might be the ice moon, since the sun essentially enters the otherworld through the fire moon and exits the ice moon according to my ww moon portal theory. You might also consider him "in the tree" meaning he's between the moons, floating in space. But the main thing, like I said, is the sun sending his comet into the fire moon, transforming it into the burning moon / burning tree.  The hot silver smoke wolf that "kills the sun" by rising from below is the rising smoke and ash cloud. Bran "impacted" below, and the wolf is his smoke cloud. The smoke and ash cloud also becomes the 'burning ash tree rising from the impact site," so in that way Summer the wolf is the weirwood Bran can enter, which makes sense. What's also cool is that I believe this rising smoke and ash is also "the fist of the first men" symbol, rising to punch the sun, and that alines the wolves and weirwoods with things the FM can use to punch.  That also means that Summer and and Cat overlap as NN / ww characters, and indeed, the wolf has bloody jaws like a weirwood.  When a NN character wins against a comet character, it can seen as the moon "eating" the comet, as Dany eats the horse heart. When the moon kills a sun character, it's the smoke and ash rising to darken the sun.

Last note, I am more and more coming to think that Bran begins his mythical astronomy as the comet, mainly because the comet has all the Morningstar / Lucifer mythology of Venus, rising to challenge heaven and falling. That is the crux of the bad little boy climbing too high - he climbs like the morningstar, falls like the evenstar. The thing is, the comet rises, but the moon meteors fall. When Bran climbs the tower, he is the morningstar comet, the hubristic star that would take the place of the sun (and the reborn moon meteors are the second sun symbol partially for this reason). He reaches the place where the sun is fucking the fire moon, then falls from that conjunction as the moon meteor that was "kissed by the sun / drank the sun's fire" (got pushed out the window by Jaime, who looks down armored like the sun, golden and beautiful). The sun and fire moon can be considered twins in that they are both beings of fire, with the sun being a bit bigger, and I think that's what Jaime and Cersei are doing. Jaime's dueling solar / ice moon symbolism can be explained by your white lion theory @ravenous reader, with the pale, white, old sun being analogous to the ice moon, the sun of winter. At least I think so, you know I am still piecing this together. 

So who enters the net? The comet, the dead fire moon, and the transformed sun. Who that is in terms of people changes depending on the scene. Who leaves, and when, is a different question, even more hypothetical at this point. We have the "three heads of the dragon = three moon meteors = Dany's white, green, and black dragons" idea.  We have the idea that somehow we got that one white Dawn meteor from the same chain of events that rained down black dragon meteors. I also think some meteors landed on earth, and at least one went into the ice moon. I have seen some evidence that both black and white meteor symbols go "into the ice moon," or perhaps a dragon which is half and half, like a shadowcat. We have ideas about splitting consciousness, like splitting someone's shadow off from them, and thus one person could bifurcate in the net and produce two people or types of beings coming out. 

Ok gotta run!

And yes, new avatar pic. It's actually going to be our first T shirt design for the podcast, the full picture in better detail is right here.

 

 

[LmL]

 As for the three heads on the Ashwood Spears, we've basically got a green horned Lord, a fiery demonic bull headed horned Lord, and a hairy man, who could easily correlate to a children of the forest character. The children seem to correlate to the Yggdrasil squirrel, running up and down the tree, a kind of facilitator role. Not sure how they fit into mythical astronomy. The things that live in the see / otherworld dont really need a physical correlary anyway, it's not a 'real' place. 

[hiemal]

18 minutes ago, LmL said:

 As for the three heads on the Ashwood Spears, we've basically got a green horned Lord, a fiery demonic bull headed horned Lord, and a hairy man, who could easily correlate to a children of the forest character. The children seem to correlate to the Yggdrasil squirrel, running up and down the tree, a kind of facilitator role. Not sure how they fit into mythical astronomy. The things that live in the see / otherworld dont really need a physical correlary anyway, it's not a 'real' place. 

Perhaps they are, like Ratatoskr, messengers or perhaps even facilitators or catalysts of the "As below, so above"/"As below, so above"" dynamic?

That's my guess anyways.

[Pain killer Jane]

10 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Hi @Pain killer Jane   Could you elaborate a bit on your interpretation of what 'standing on the back of a fool' could mean?  It occurs to me that could be the greenseer like Bran standing / riding on Hodor the fool's back in order to wed the tree.  What do you and @LmL mean by the fool 'goes into the weirnet along with the greenseer'?

Sorry if I haven't answered. I had two exams on the same day. 

But yes that is how I see it. 

Quote

Westeros remembers their conquerors as the Sarnori, for at its height their great kingdom included all the lands watered by the Sarne and its vassals, and the three great lakes that were all that remained of the shrinking Silver Sea. They called themselves the Tall Men (in their own tongue the Tagaez Fen). Long of limb and brown of skin they were, like the Zoqora, though their hair and eyes were black as night. Warriors, sorcerers, and scholars, they traced their descent to the hero king they called Huzhor Amai (the Amazing), born of the last of the Fisher Queens, who took to wife the daughters of the greatest lords and kings of the Gipps, the Cymmeri, and the Zoqora, binding all three peoples to his rule. His Zoqora wife drove his chariot, it is said, his Cymer wife made his armor (for her people were the first to work iron), and he wore about his shoulders a great cloak made from the pelt of a king of the Hairy Men.

Quote

Once a beast's been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes."

I think Huzhor Amai's hair shirt is referencing skinchanging but not in the typical way of Huzhor Amai skin changing the king of the Hairy Men, I tend to think it is the King of the Hairy Men skin changing Huzhor Amai because of the second quote that Varamyr says that Orell lives within him like ghost grass (a weed or a strangling vine). 

I think the fool is the original owner of the body. This is what I mean of standing on a fool's back. To me it means 'having a monkey on my back' which is what you identified with Bran and Hodor. 

10 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 

On 3/14/2017 at 5:22 PM, LmL said:

@ravenous reader, @Pain killer Jane, regarding who goes into the ww net and how many, consider the three severed heads of the NW brothers whose eyes were cut out by the Weeper. Those heads were mounted in spears of ash, creating the image of a weirwood - ash tree with a bloody face weeping blood.  It also shows us a smoking meteor landing - the head of a bleeding star trailing ash - and finally, the column of rising ash and smoke that came from the impact location. There were three heads: Garth Greyfeather (green garth turning grey), Black Jack Bulwer (associated with drinking blood and bulls horns via the origins of House Bulwer), and Hairy Hal. Hairy Hal sounds like a wild man of the woods type, he might be the fool / cotf / enabler / gatekeeper / custodian. Garth is the sacrifice. The demonic bull is AA reborn. They all go into the net. Three heads of the dragon? An equivalent? 

Thoughts?

 

On 3/14/2017 at 6:19 PM, Pain killer Jane said:

I like this concept of the three. Well it fits with Maester Cressen standing in between the the hellhound and the wyvern. Maester Cressen is Black Jack Bulwer, the Wyvern is Garth Greyfeather and the Hellhound is Hairy Hal or something like that because remember that all three stand on a wall or a hinge. I know for sure that Maester Cressen and Black Jack are equivalents since Maester Cressen died with Patchface's horned helm on him. 

Can the two of you please explain the difference between the three archetypes to me in mythical astronomy terms; and what you mean, as I indicated above, about them 'all going into the net together'?  

GRRM presents us with so many trios, so the possibilities are endless.  What's your opinion of these three trees Jon encounters: the drunken ash on a hill who resembles dolorous Edd (maybe that's the grey figure); the chestnut (?hairy) watching the bridge...that one seems to be a gatekeeper; and the angry oak?  Which one would be the fool figure then?  (in this context it seems to be the first tree compared to Edd who always acts the clever fool, with his wise quips...).  Why is the first tree a 'drunk'?

 

11 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

How would that map onto the others?

ETA:  Do you think the three terms in the following Patchface trio refer to three archetypes?

'clever bird, clever man, clever fool'

Hmm....I think so. I haven't really puzzled out everything but this does seem right. As to why the first tree is drunk, this is probably a reference Dontos playing Sansa's Florian which he was a drunken fool knight, that was first threaten by being drowned in a cast, and then was killed by an arrow to the heart. And as a reference to the Garth Greyfeather connection to the Grey King, Aeron Greyjoy was a drunk before he became a drowned religious man. 

[Unchained]

On 3/14/2017 at 9:58 PM, Crowfood's Daughter said:

You know, I had linked Baelor the Blessed and Balor before so I am just going to share because I love this little nugget.  Baelor locked his sisters away in a tower because of prophesy not piety!

"The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father’s knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require a sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior'.” ASOS .

Now, Baelor I was equally studious to Rhaegar, and they both had similar resources, could it be possible that Baelor I also read the same scrolls?

GREEK MYTHOLOGY

The tale of Danae: King Acrisius prays for a son, but Apollo tells him he will never have a son, but that the son of his daughter will kill him. The only way to fully prevent this prophecy would be to kill his daughter, Danae, but Acrisius fears what the gods would do to him. Instead, he imprisons Danae in a bronze house without a roof and guards her carefully.Arcisius does not expect, that Zeus will come to her and impregnate her. Perseus is born and he sets Danae and Perseus in a box out in the ocean. As a grown man, Perseus enters a discus competition and his discus strikes his grandfather who was unknowingly and coincidentally in the audience fulfilling the prophesy.

Remember Daena Targaryen was one of the princesses locked in the maidenvault and eventually became the mother of Daemon Blackfyre.

CELTIC MYTHOLOGY

Further evidence in the tale of Balor. In this tale, Balor hears a druid's prophecy that he will be killed by his own grandson. To prevent this he imprisons his only daughter in the Tór Mór (great tower) of Tory Island. Mac Cinnfhaelaidh calls on a sídhe (fairy woman) who transports him by magic to Balor's tower, where he seduces Balor's daughter. In time she gives birth to triplets, which Balor gathers up in a sheet and sends to be drowned in a whirlpool. The messenger drowns two of the babies, but unwittingly drops one child into the harbor. The child grows into a man and eventually kills Balor.

So you can see, the myths all have something in common, a prophesy, a maiden locked in a tower, the maiden becoming pregnant , and the prophesy coming to fruition. Each myth eludes to the name of either Balor or Danae.

In ASOIAF, Baelor locks Daena in a tower, and Daena becomes miraculously pregnant and gives birth to the Blackfyre progenitor. 

Anyway, I had a long post about that a few years back, all boils down to kinslaying and prophesy.

 

 

This helped me put together some of what I was thinking about. When I found Celtic Balor and Lugh, I did connect him vaguely to Perseus, but withou the similar names of the trapped women (not Baelor, missed that one too and I will come back to Perseus), but mostly I just saw the similarites between him and Cronus.  They are both primordial, prophecy paranoid, anti-farm gods among other similarites.  He fits the profile for Grey King types you lay out.  He is associated with farming and the order of the seasons, but in the opposite way than someone like Garth.  Garth carries a bottomless bag of seeds, Cronus carries a scythe.  He is the reaper like Cain.  Cronus goes hand and hand with time and its ravages.  The greeks called personified time Chronos, which is basically the same.  I think the Cronus of this story is the Mad King fighting against Zeus(KIng Bob and Jon Arryn), Hades(Ned), and Poseidon(Stannis).  The thing I found that sealed it is very much like what you wrote about, I compared their wives names (Rhea & Rhaella).  If nothing else we are figuring out those alien Valyrian names.  Cronus ate his children, like Nagga did with the krakens and leviathans, imprisoning them because of a prophecy that they would kill him like a ton of other mythical figures whose time has come.  If you throw in Rhaegar, we also get an impregnated moon maiden in a tower who gives birth to a hero.  All the elements you lay out are present.  I am thinking more and more that this is how the conflict that caused and ended the long night went.  There was a leader of the AA people that antagonized the others.  If we think that the Mad KIng was influenced into being crazy by Varys or anyone, then there is your Dawn age trickster.  It may have even been the other AA people that were tricked/influenced, or both.  Knowing what I know now about Lugh throwing his fiery spear into Balon's eye which was used against him and that the first thing the First Men did when they came to Westros was destroy the weirwood trees, I would like to submit my idea for why the moon was detroyed.  Like the weirwood trees, someone had power over/could see through/channeled magic through the moon or moons.  That person and his underlings were tricked into fighting and the ones without power over the moon drug it down or tricked others into doing it for them to bring that power down to earth where they could use it and take it away from their enemies.    

 

You already have the Perseus story kicked, but I want to focus on the fact they are put in a box in the water.  Another similiar story with the gender roles flipped is the one of Osiris.  In one version, he is killed, put in a box in the Nile, and found by Isis with his box stuck in a tree.  She brings him back to life making him a green, undead, tree person, and conceives a child/hero with him.  Putting all of this together and seeing how important the theme is, I feel comfortable saying that this is what we are being shown when Tyrion is set free, kills his father, and is put in a box to be shipped across the Narrow Sea.  

 

I was looking into all of this in an attempt to support what I call my "Fern Gulley" theory which is that there are spirits trapped inthe wierwood trees that are set free when they are destroyed.  I want to show that all these heroes that are imprisoned and either set free themselves to become AA people, or made pregnant so their children could be set free becoming AA people are metaphors for the people trapped in trees being freed.  In a pleasant surprise, it seems to be gathering support without me doing anything to help it along.  I was tagged for it for the first time in reference to it by @ravenous reader today in a sort of a milestone, thanks Ravenous and I love that you are finding evidence for it in a totally different way than I am.  I am missing a few important pieces before I can connect the myth to the tree prisons.  When I saw your profile picture @Crowfood's Daughter and realized we were thinking about similiar things, I laughed because I was REAL close to making the fairy from Fern Gulley my profile pic, but decided against it.  

 

I want to say something and see if anyone agrees.  Rhaegar in his black ruby armor is a dark Garth type Storm God like Euron in his new WoW spoilers attire.  A dragon flying is the same thing as a thunderbolt or a flaming spear.  When he fights King Bob it is Garth on Garth violence, but they are very different beacause one in inverted and dark while one is less so.  Any of that make sense?  

 

Since Crowfood and @LmL beat me to Balon of the evil eye, I know you two are all over the Irish/Celtic mythology, which is a damn gold mine of ASoIaF.  Have the two of you seen this gemstone about Cu Chulainn, Lugh's son, yet?  I thought the three forgings that led to reforged Gram had the origin of Lightbringer just about finished, but then I find this.    

 

He returns to Emain Macha in his battle frenzy, and the Ulstermen are afraid he will slaughter them all. Conchobar's wife Mugain leads out the women of Emain, and they bare their breasts to him. He averts his eyes, and the Ulstermen wrestle him into a barrel of cold water, which explodes from the heat of his body. They put him in a second barrel, which boils, and a third, which warms to a pleasant temperature.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 7:02 PM, ravenous reader said:

Hi Gloubie!  

It seems you are getting closer to answering your question and writing that brilliant essay!

Just a quick observation, did you notice that the sad 'wolf man' in the dream looks at the dreamer with 'mute appeal' -- those are the exact same words used to describe Jinglebell looking at Catelyn...'the lackwit looked at her with mute appeal.'  I think the 'mute appeal' intimates the dangerous secret -- that may not speak its name -- lying like a monster (or bastard!) at the very origin of Winterfell and the Starks, which you've been suggesting lies at the heart of the mystery of the saga, in general.

Here are the three quotes containing the 'code phrase' -- 'mute appeal':

And then this similar scene, in which Bran is the one watching in mute appeal:

This might be one of GRRM's ambiguous sentence constructions.  'As his life flowed out of him...' could almost refer just as well to Bran as to the man being sacrificed.

I think the man being sacrificed is another Brandon!

You know, this is probably nothing, but I wanted to bring this up, I was reading Ovid's Metamorphoses translation by Charles Martin yesterday and remembered your targeting of the words mute appeal when I was reading Book 1.  After the feast of Lycaon, which is a feast of human flesh that results in Lycaon turning into a wolf, the Gods decide to punish humanity with a great flood (you know drowning waters).

Quote

“By signs I let them know a god had come, and common folk began to offer prayers; at first Lycaon mocked their piety, and then he said, ‘I will make trial of him, and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt  whether this fellow is a god or man.’ “He planned to take me, overcome with sleep, and murder me as I lay unawares; that was his way of getting at the truth. Nor was he satisfied with this: he took a hostage sent by the Molossians, and after severing his windpipe, cut his body into pieces and then put the throbbing parts up to be boiled or broiled. “As soon as he had set this on the table, I loosed my vengeful bolts until that house collapsed on its deserving household gods! “Frightened, he runs off to the silent fields and howls aloud, attempting speech in vain; foam gathers at the corners of his mouth; he turns his lust for slaughter on the flocks, and mangles them, rejoicing still in blood. “His garments now become a shaggy pelt; his arms turn into legs, and he, to wolf while still retaining traces of the man:  greyness the same, the same cruel visage, the same cold eyes and bestial appearance. “One house has fallen: many more deserve to; over the broad earth, bestiality prevails and stirs the Furies up to vengeance.” Some of the gods give voice to their approval of Jove’s words and aggravate his grumbling, while others play their roles with mute assent. Nevertheless, all of them were saddened by the proposed destruction of the human race 

   I know there is a difference in mute appeal vs. mute assent.  But both instances we see a feast of human flesh presided over by a wolf man and for some reason my mind just kept going back to this comment you made the other day when I read this.  Probably nothing, like I said.  BTW, if you ever get a chance Book 1 seems to follow many ASOIAF concepts. Ovid discusses The four ages, then moves to the War with the Giants, retells Lycaon’s feast, then transitions to The great flood.  I think GRRM took similar influence from Hesiod's five ages of man and Ovid's four ages of man as he did from Tolkien 's four ages.