The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

[Pain killer Jane]

31 minutes ago, hiemal said:

First- love the color coding. That is handy.

You're welcomed. By the way did you notice that Varys puts the parchment of knowledge up his sleeve making knowledge a part of the arm which in this case should be taken as a pun on arms as in weapon? This is pointing at the Grey/Ash Knights aka the Measters. 

[Pain killer Jane]

28 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Tinfoil: BSE "killed" by his sister by impregnating her before she died in childbirth. Poor Nissa-Nissa.

Absolutely he did. Its the 'brood mare' theme we see when Tywin points out to Tyrion about Sansa's claim to Winterfell. The sexual connotation of 'giving someone the sword". 

[LmL]

39 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Tinfoil: BSE "killed" by his sister by impregnating her before she died in childbirth. Poor Nissa-Nissa.

Not tinfoil - that definitely happened. If AA and NN didn't reproduce... well this whole thing doesn't go anywhere. She might have died in childbirth, or been killed after, it amounts to the same thing, although one is obviously more nefarious. Perhaps AA impregnated her as a part of a blood magic experiment to create people who are the blood of the dragon. This is highly probable in my opinion. I tend to think of her as an elf woman of some kind, though not necessarily a cotf. More like a God-Empress of Leng. I also imagine Dany's GEotD ancestors to be a bit tanner than her, if you know what I mean. Golden skin, with the pale silver and gold and white hair. 

[Pain killer Jane]

@LmL @Crowfood's Daughter @ravenous reader

 

Before the Tyrion and Varys scene is the scene between Janos Slynt and Tyrion. And among the many mentions of killing children, treachery, loyalty etc. etc. etc. Janos says "we will see who sails away." We have quite a few references of AA people sailing away aka being banished or exiled and at some point exhibiting Grey King attributes. Prince Daemon, Euron, and others.

@LmL I also found a curious tale.

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Arya rode as far ahead of the wagons as she dared, so she wouldn't have to hear the little girl crying or listen to the woman whisper, "Please." She remembered a story Old Nan had told once, about a man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil giants. He was very brave and smart and he tricked the giants and escaped . . . but no sooner was he outside the castle than the Others took him, and drank his hot red blood. Now she knew how he must have felt.

The one-armed woman died at evenfall. Gendry and Cutjack dug her grave on a hillside beneath a weeping willow. When the wind blew, Arya thought she could hear the long trailing branches whispering, "Please. Please. Please." The little hairs on the back of her neck rose, and she almost ran from the graveside.

-Arya III, aCoK

 Among its reference to the wind talking and other such stuff. That story sounds like the NK 

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The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

and this about Mance 

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Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower.

 

[hiemal]

26 minutes ago, LmL said:

Not tinfoil - that definitely happened. If AA and NN didn't reproduce... well this whole thing doesn't go anywhere. She might have died in childbirth, or been killed after, it amounts to the same thing, although one is obviously more nefarious. Perhaps AA impregnated her as a part of a blood magic experiment to create people who are the blood of the dragon.

 

My thoughts exactly.

26 minutes ago, LmL said:

. I tend to think of her as an elf woman of some kind, though not necessarily a cotf. More like a God-Empress of Leng. I also imagine Dany's GEotD ancestors to be a bit tanner than her, if you know what I mean. Golden skin, with the pale silver and gold and white hair. 

I'm thinking second attempt, tiger bride, for the elf/Lengii infusion after a Deep One or someone with the old blood and webbed fingers and tyring to reist the urge to make a dirty joke about smelling like fish.

 

[hiemal]

36 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Absolutely he did. Its the 'brood mare' theme we see when Tywin points out to Tyrion about Sansa's claim to Winterfell. The sexual connotation of 'giving someone the sword". 

Which shows up over and over and over again. We are in agreement

[Pain killer Jane]

51 minutes ago, LmL said:

Not tinfoil - that definitely happened. If AA and NN didn't reproduce... well this whole thing doesn't go anywhere. She might have died in childbirth, or been killed after, it amounts to the same thing, although one is obviously more nefarious. Perhaps AA impregnated her as a part of a blood magic experiment to create people who are the blood of the dragon. This is highly probable in my opinion. I tend to think of her as an elf woman of some kind, though not necessarily a cotf. More like a God-Empress of Leng. I also imagine Dany's GEotD ancestors to be a bit tanner than her, if you know what I mean. Golden skin, with the pale silver and gold and white hair. 

Her ancestors looking exactly like her vision of Rhaego. 

But I agree that the impregnation was a way to make blood of the dragon. It goes back to what Littlefinger saying that the smallfolk believe that a pregnant woman eating hares would give the baby rabbit ears which is a reference to House Florent and their genetic big ears. But there is also the implication that what AA was feeding NN was also cannibalistic in nature. (Martin is referencing a scientific theory here with that and the inheritance of magic being matrilineal. Its called Symbiogensis of mitochondrial cells and their DNA)

edit: I hope you understand this. Dragon Dreaming = Nissa Nissa + Azhor Ahai 

[Pain killer Jane]

9 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I'm thinking second attempt, tiger bride, for the elf/Lengii infusion after a Deep One or someone with the old blood and webbed fingers and tyring to reist the urge to make a dirty joke about smelling like fish.

And cats do like to eat fish. Jon's joke to Arya about having arms that has a wolf with a fish in its mouth and while Arya is a warg, she is also a cat skinchanger. 

[hiemal]

18 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And cats do like to eat fish. Jon's joke to Arya about having arms that has a wolf with a fish in its mouth and while Arya is a warg, she is also a cat skinchanger. 

She imagines herself an otter, who like fish even more and represent a less amusing wol/fish hybrid than Jon's proposal.

 

[Pain killer Jane]

2 minutes ago, hiemal said:

She imagines herself an otter, who like fish even more and represent a less amusing wol/fish hybrid than Jon's proposal.

which are in the same family as wolverines which she wants to be as fierce as one. 

[Pain killer Jane]

@Crowfood's Daughter

I know you will like this. Its a description of Ned, the Lord of the Dead as the Grey King

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 As if ten years in Winterfell could make a Stark. Lord Eddard had raised him among his own children, but Theon had never been one of them. The whole castle, from Lady Stark to the lowliest kitchen scullion, knew he was hostage to his father's good behavior, and treated him accordingly. Even the bastard Jon Snow had been accorded more honor than he had.

Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who'd brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark's stern face and great dark sword. 

-Theon I, aCoK

And by the way if we consider Theon a Stark (his kinslayer epithet later on in the story) then he would be the older brother because right after this Theon considers that his affection for Robb is akin to having the affection for a younger brother. 

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

edit: I hope you understand this. Dragon Dreaming = Nissa Nissa + Azhor Ahai 

I think you might need to go easy on the weirwood paste, lol. 

 

2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Her ancestors looking exactly like her vision of Rhaego. 

But I agree that the impregnation was a way to make blood of the dragon. It goes back to what Littlefinger saying that the smallfolk believe that a pregnant woman eating hares would give the baby rabbit ears which is a reference to House Florent and their genetic big ears

Yep. I follow you here. 

What did you mean about cannibalism? Stabbing her with LB could be like feeding her her own baby, but's that's disgusting. Weirwoods do like to eat people however, and NN = W in some snese as we have been saying.

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

which are in the same family as wolverines which she wants to be as fierce as one. 

And the weasels to which the Freys are forever being unfavorably compared (probably unfair to weasels, I mean) and the ermine and sable fields which are featured in the heraldry of a few Andal houses. And vair, the only other fur pattern I can think of, is from a squirrel. Right back to our little sphinx of a Stark.

[Pain killer Jane]

43 minutes ago, LmL said:

What did you mean about cannibalism? Stabbing her with LB could be like feeding her her own baby, but's that's disgusting. Weirwoods do like to eat people however, and NN = W in some snese as we have been saying.

If he fed her the previous experiments at breeding dragon blooded people.  

Edit: With the reputation of the BSE/AA, it wouldn't surprise me if he had something like Gogossos. 

[LmL]

29 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

If he fed her the previous experiments at breeding dragon blooded people.  

Edit: With the reputation of the BSE/AA, it wouldn't surprise me if he had something like Gogossos. 

Now see THAT is what HBO needs to do for a prequel - the island of Doctor Bloodstone: how a necromantic blood mage overran Sothoryos with freaks and monsters, the untold story

[Pain killer Jane]

54 minutes ago, LmL said:

Now see THAT is what HBO needs to do for a prequel - the island of Doctor Bloodstone: how a necromantic blood mage overran Sothoryos with freaks and monsters, the untold story

I could get behind that. One of my fave books after all. 

"There it must be, I think, in the vast and eternal laws of matter, and not in the daily cares and sins and troubles of men, that whatever is more than animal within us must find its solace and its hope. I hope, or I could not live."

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

And the weasels to which the Freys are forever being unfavorably compared (probably unfair to weasels, I mean) and the ermine and sable fields which are featured in the heraldry of a few Andal houses. And vair, the only other fur pattern I can think of, is from a squirrel. Right back to our little sphinx of a Stark.

Lol poor weasels. You know the story of Rikki Tikki Tavi has a ferret fighting a snake. So that maybe Arya's purpose. 

And the way that Will thinks of how they make fun of Ser Waymar's sable cloak just makes me think of the serial killer triad trait of torturing animals as a child and then keeping trophies like the ears on Chella's necklace.

 

[Unchained]

14 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

Well, I think you know I am leaning toward the idea of team garth/green pulling down the moon.  One thing we need to take into context are some literal interpretations when it comes to the horn that broke the moon. 

The deeds attributed to the Grey King by the priests and singers of the Iron Islands are many and marvelous. It was the Grey King who brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God until he lashed down with a thunderbolt, setting a tree ablaze.

“And the man who blew the horn, what of him?” “He died. There were blisters on his lips, after. His bird was bleeding too.” The captain thumped his chest. “The hawk, just here. Every feather dripping blood. I heard the man was all burned up inside, but that might just have been some tale.”

Bitterly Victarion brooded on the treachery of brothers. Euron’s gifts are always poisoned. “The Crow’s Eye swore this horn would bind dragons to my will. But how will that serve me if the price is death?” “Your brother did not sound the horn himself. Nor must you.” Moqorro pointed to the band of steel. “Here. ‘Blood for fire, fire for blood.’ Who blows the hellhorn matters not. The dragons will come to the horn’s master. You must claim the horn. With blood.”

I think the Grey King tricked Garth into pulling the moon down as a final resort or maybe even as an act of loyalty, hence the "leal eldest" part? I think the parallel of Euron getting his own brother to sound the horn is a hint, although it is inverted presently.  The Ironborn see the bringing of fire to the earth as kind of a good thing in their legends, despite the rising tides and the drowning Gods and death stuff, so maybe the drowning of the waters is what the Grey king needed and he used his brother to attain it?  After all, House Goodbrother does have that horn sigil, and it is the weirwoods, trees and the keep of House Goodbrother pulling down the moon. 

“Every morning brings a new day, much like the old.” “In Riverrun, they would tell you different. They say the red comet is a herald of a new age. A messenger from the gods.” “A sign it is,” the priest agreed, “but from our god, not theirs. A burning brand it is, such as our people carried of old. It is the flame the Drowned God brought from the sea, and it proclaims a rising tide. It is time to hoist our sails and go forth into the world with fire and sword, as he did.”

 

Time to hoist sails and go forth with fire and sword, or maybe a firesword?

I think the cloudy hand sigil of House Kenning is a hint to Garth being the moonbreaker, the storm god it literally depicted as a hand lashing down a thunderbolt.  http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Kenning_of_Harlaw

When it comes down to it, it comes to some of that trickster symbolism, I have mentioned a couple times.  I can't put my finger on it, but it seems there is another figure sowing discourse.  It sounds crazy, but I am trying to get to the bottom of it before I can move on to another line of inquiry.  I think we may have a Dawn age equivalent of Littlefinger out there somewhere in the history of Westeros, maybe Lann, not sure but there is something.

 

I think there is definitely some trickster who destroyed the moon and corrupted the WWnet stuff going on with Lann.  

 

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He opened to the section on House Lannister once more, and turned the pages slowly, hoping against hope that something would leap out at him. The Lannisters were an old family, tracing their descent back to Lann the Clever, a trickster from the Age of Heroes who was no doubt as legendary as Bran the Builder, though far more beloved of singers and taletellers. In the songs, Lann was the fellow who winkled the Casterlys out of Casterly Rock with no weapon but his wits, and stole gold from the sun to brighten his curly hair. Ned wished he were here now, to winkle the truth out of this damnable book.

 

Books are symbol of weirwoods being made of trees and storing knowledge.  It looks like Lann may have tricked the trees or greenseers from this quote.

 

I could not decide if the Rock was a symbol of the fire moon or the WWnet.  Now that it has been established that the trees were transformed when the moon was destroyed, it can be a little of both and makes more sense.  

 

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That was when the golden-haired rogue called Lann the Clever appeared from out of the east. Some say he was an Andal adventurer from across the narrow sea, though this was millennia before the coming of the Andals to Westeros. Regardless of his origins, the tales agree that somehow Lann the Clever winkled the Casterlys out of their Rock and took it for his own.

 

The precise method by which he accomplished this remains a matter of conjecture. In the most common version of the tale, Lann discovered a secret way inside the Rock, a cleft so narrow that he had to strip off his clothes and coat himself with butter in order to squeeze through. Once inside, however, he began to work his mischief, whispering threats in the ears of sleeping Casterlys, howling from the darkness like a demon, stealing treasures from one brother to plant in the bedchamber of another, rigging sundry snares and deadfalls. By such methods he set the Casterlys at odds with one another and convinced them that the Rock was haunted by some fell creature that would never let them live in peace.

 

Other tellers prefer other versions of the tale. In one, Lann uses the cleft to fill the Rock with mice, rats, and other vermin, thereby driving out the Casterlys. In another, he smuggles a pride of lions inside, and Lord Casterly and his sons are all devoured, after which Lann claims his lordship's wife and daughters for himself. The bawdiest of the stories has Lann stealing in night after night to have his way with the Casterly maidens whilst they sleep. In nine months time, these maids all give birth to golden-haired children whilst still insisting they had never had carnal knowledge of a man.

 

The last tale, ribald as it is, has certain intriguing aspects that might hint at the truth of what occurred. It is Archmaester Perestan's belief that Lann was a retainer of some sort in service to Lord Casterly (perhaps a household guard), who impregnated his lordship's daughter (or daughters, though that seems less likely), and persuaded her father to give him the girl's hand in marriage. If indeed this was what occurred, assuming (as we must) that Lord Casterly had no trueborn sons, then in the natural course of events the Rock would have passed to the daughter, and hence to Lann, upon the father's death.

 

 

Lann found a secret way into the Rock.  It was probably not a method that was without causing destruction.  He whispered from the darkness, howling like a demon, sounds like a greenseer or an impersonator of one.  He stole treasures and turned brother against brother which I think is exactly what you are getting at.  I wonder what treasures those were.  He filled the Rock with vermin which sounds like he corrupted the fire moon/WWnet driving out the original inhabitants.  Smuggling in a pride of lions sounds like letting the sun's fire into the fire moon/WWnet which is something that happened right?  They ate the men and he claimed the women which given that Nissa Nissa was a weirwood person sounds agian like he killed or ran out the children's souls in the trees and claimed the WWnet for himself.  Lann impregnating the women without them knowing while they slept is interesting.  I have no idea what that means, but maybe greenseers can create a new sort of people in a way.  Impregnating the lord's daughter is another way of saying the same thing as above.  

 

Also, he used the sun to brighten his hair/heir.  AA reborn had the sun's energy in him.         

 

 

 

[Pain killer Jane]

3 hours ago, Unchained said:

 

I think there is definitely some trickster who destroyed the moon and corrupted the WWnet stuff going on with Lann.  

 

 

Books are symbol of weirwoods being made of trees and storing knowledge.  It looks like Lann may have tricked the trees or greenseers from this quote.

 

I could not decide if the Rock was a symbol of the fire moon or the WWnet.  Now that it has been established that the trees were transformed when the moon was destroyed, it can be a little of both and makes more sense.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lann found a secret way into the Rock.  It was probably not a method that was without causing destruction.  He whispered from the darkness, howling like a demon, sounds like a greenseer or an impersonator of one.  He stole treasures and turned brother against brother which I think is exactly what you are getting at.  I wonder what treasures those were.  He filled the Rock with vermin which sounds like he corrupted the fire moon/WWnet driving out the original inhabitants.  Smuggling in a pride of lions sounds like letting the sun's fire into the fire moon/WWnet which is something that happened right?  They ate the men and he claimed the women which given that Nissa Nissa was a weirwood person sounds agian like he killed or ran out the children's souls in the trees and claimed the WWnet for himself.  Lann impregnating the women without them knowing while they slept is interesting.  I have no idea what that means, but maybe greenseers can create a new sort of people in a way.  Impregnating the lord's daughter is another way of saying the same thing as above.  

 

Also, he used the sun to brighten his hair/heir.  AA reborn had the sun's energy in him.         

 

 

 

The bit about stealing the sun to paint his hair is the lime juice whitewashing. 

And now that you mention the bit about howling like a demon as in imitation of greenseers, I just had a thought that if the Hearttrees are wight trees as @LmL has suggest and are undead and the whispering woods and whispering sound on the wind are the sounds of undead greenseers in the Weirnet than therefore it should be rightly called White Noise, which is often cited as being used by the dead to communicate. 

Sorry that is off topic.

And yes I agree that Lann is very sinister trickster. And he is often considered to be a grandson of Garth through Florys or Rowen Gold tree. Which fits because @ravenous reader has put forth the theory that the trees are traps and foxes are often tricksters especially in Eastern mythology which is telling since Lann is said to have appeared from the east, that land of the rising sun.

And that secret pass into Casterly Rock seems like Robb and Ser Artys Arryn's goat track. 

[ravenous reader]

2 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

the whispering woods and whispering sound on the wind are the sounds of undead greenseers in the Weirnet than therefore it should be rightly called White Noise, which is often cited as being used by the dead to communicate. 

Sorry that is off topic.

No.  It's not at all off topic.  The word is the sword.  The word comes before the sword.  Before the blood -- even before the fire -- there was the Word:

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John 1King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

² The same was in the beginning with God.

³ All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

⁴ In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

⁵ And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.