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Football - Leicester's Shakespearean Tragedy


Philokles

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Mormont,

The point I am trying to get across is that the ref sent off the wrong player. Herrera was not the one guilty of persistent fouling, which is what the ref wanted to put a stop to. The ref decided to draw the line in those two instances only and book Herrera twice for innocuous fouls but then lets everything else go. As a result, the real offenders were allowed to go on their merry way. Do you honestly believe that Hazard was only actually fouled twice in the last hour of the game? Had Jones been sent off for persistent fouling and Rojo for the stamp, I'd have zero complaints. At most, Herrera should have gotten one yellow card yet he gets sent off and the two most egregious offenders finish the game without a single booking between them.

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In news surprising no-one but journalists, it turns out that Mino Raiola talks rubbish. The issue in question being Romelu Lukaku signing a new contract at Everton - he won't, he now says, because he wants CL football. 

Showing that he is a thinking individual, the journo then goes on to mention rumours linking him to Manchester United :rolleyes:

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It's like Leicester have turned the clock back and are now playing like the team of last season. Great achievement for them to reach the QF. Sevilla will be ruing all those missed chances in the 1st leg where they played Leicester off the park. I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that Sevilla could have been 4-0 up at halftime in the 1st leg and could have had five or six had they not been so wasteful in front of goal.

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Very disappointed in Sevilla's performance. Sloppy, full of errors and resorted to pumping the ball into the box as if Leicester's centre-backs weren't Morgan and Huth. Leicester played well but got all they could have hoped for from their opponents.

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6 hours ago, Consigliere said:

It was not a bookable offence. End of story.

It was. Herrera's second yellow is in my opinion a yellow card on its own accord. It was late, from behind and the ball is nowhere near. But let's look at his sending off with the rules.

In their official guidelines, FIFA expand a bit on this Law 12. The part about persistent infringement reads:

Referees should alert at all times to players who persisitently infringe the Laws. In particular, they must be aware that, even if a player commits a number of different offences, he must still be cautioned for persistently infringing the Laws.

It is generaly advisable, though not required, to warn a player that he is nearing the threshold level before actually applying the sanction of a caution.

There is no specific number of infringements which constitutes "persistance" of the pattern - this is entirely a matter of judgement and must be determined in the context of effective game management.

         

         Referees should consider the following circumstances:

  1. The lenght of time during which the fouls occur - spread out over 90 minutes of play may not be as serious as the same number comitted over the space of near 15 minutes. 
  2. The fouls themselves can be of various types  ( generally, those described in Law 12 but including as well repeated violations of Law 14.
  3. Fouls to which advantage has been applied must be included in determining "persistance")

 

The obvious definition of persistent fouling is a player commiting multiple small fouls during the game on various targets, usually they receive a warning, eventually a booking. Key passage is that Oliver did warned Smalling as the captain and Jones, after yet another foul on Hazard. Pretty clearly Oliver saw Man Utd startegy and called Smalling over to let him know, as the captain, that these fouls has to stop or cards will follow. Well, 30 second later Herrera fouled Hazard and he gave him a yellow card.

The guidelines comes from  US Soccer's Federation "Advice to Referees" which is an official publication to help interpretate FIFA's rules. While these obviously aren't FA or PGMOL publications, the laws of the game and the guidelines for appyling the laws of the game should be universal. (That's the part of the mandate of FIFA) 

So, the USSF'S advice goes, in part

12.83.3 PERSISTENT INFRINGEMENT

Persistent infringement occurs when a player repeatedly commits fouls or certain other infringements. It is not necessary for the multiple fouls to be of the same type or all to be direct free kick fouls, but infringements must be among those covered in Law 12 or involve repeated violations of Law 14. In most cases, the referee should warn the player that the pattern has been observed and, upon a subsequent violation, must then issue the caution. If the pattern is clearly quickly and blantantly established, then the warning should be omitted and the referee should take immediate action. In determining whether there is persistent infringement, all fouls are considered, including those to which advantage has been applied.

Pretty standard interpretation  we commonly operate under. Repeated fouls commited by one player, then get's cautioned at the referee's discretion. But this where it is interesting. 

The referee must also recognize when a single opponent has become the target of fouls by multiple players. As above, upon recognizing the pattern, the referee should clearly indicate that the pattern has been observed and that further fouls against this opponent must cease. If another player commits a foul against the targeted opponent, that player must be cautioned but, oin this case, the misconduct should be reported as unsporting behaviour, as must any subsequent caution  of any further foul against the same targeted opponent. Eventually, the tam will get the message. 

 

Out of 14 fouls by Man Utd in the game, no less then 6 of them were on Hazard. I recall 4 fouls on Hazard in the first half, if iam not mistaken. That makes it 2 after the red card. Man Utd commited 8 fouls in the first 35 minutes and then not a one until around 70th or 75th minute. They get the message.

Basically Man Utd as team established their strategy, Oliver figured it out, warned Smalling after Jones foul, The next guy will be cautioned and unfortunately it was Herrera already on the yellow card. Oliver get this right but what he did not was the trend following this incident and spotting these fouls or Costa diving there. Incosistent refereeing (as it is in the football in general) but Herrera red card from this point of view was justified. Stewart Robson who was doing commntary with Martin Tyler noticed that trend too. Herrera paid the price for Mourinho's tactics.

When it comes to his first yellow card, which we can debate on but Herrera stood his ground after looking where Hazard was and made sure to put his shoulder into him. I've seen yellow cards this.

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6 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Mormont,

The point I am trying to get across is that the ref sent off the wrong player.

I understand that: you're half right. He should also have sent off Rojo for the stamp, but there is no question - none whatsoever - that he did the right thing in sending Herrera off.

Seriously. Phil bloody Neville, through gritted teeth, had to admit this. I don't care if you do or not, truly, but you would have to admit that your view is at the very least in the minority here. And, well, you have a bias, and I don't.

6 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Herrera was not the one guilty of persistent fouling, which is what the ref wanted to put a stop to.

But he was. He literally persisted after a warning. The warning was to the team in general including him, rather than specifically to him, but that makes no difference.

6 hours ago, Consigliere said:

The ref decided to draw the line in those two instances only and book Herrera twice for innocuous fouls but then lets everything else go.

Neither foul was innocuous. In the first, Herrera deliberately blocks Hazard, with the ball nowhere nearby, in a way that is reckless of Hazard's safety. In the second, he tackles him clumsily from behind and gets nowhere near the ball.

6 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Do you honestly believe that Hazard was only actually fouled twice in the last hour of the game?

Not counting the stamp, yes. That's the count of people who watch the game and record the stats. If you have evidence to the contrary, let's see it.

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

I hope Kante is watching and gutted. 

I think he'll cope. He knows he'll get his chance next year.

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18 hours ago, Rorshach said:

In news surprising no-one but journalists, it turns out that Mino Raiola talks rubbish. The issue in question being Romelu Lukaku signing a new contract at Everton - he won't, he now says, because he wants CL football. 

Showing that he is a thinking individual, the journo then goes on to mention rumours linking him to Manchester United :rolleyes:

Man Utd will win Europa League - not much of a competition aside the team from Lyon/AS Roma tie, maybe Monchengladbach or Schalke which allows them to qualify for next season UCL. How much do you think Eveton will charge for him with 2 years left on his deal? Will you have even with interest from other clubs or selling him?

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I'm not so confident that we will win the EL. English clubs don't have a good record in that competition. However, the EL represents our best chance for CL qualification so I think that it should be made our top priority. A top 4 finish looks quite unlikely now especially when you consider our poor record against the top 6 and our remaining games against them are away to Arsenal, Spurs and City and home to Chelsea. We might pick up 4 points in those games if I'm being generous.

Concerning Lukaku: Even if we do get into the CL, I'd be very surprised if he joins the club. I would think that he isn't too keen on joining up with Mourinho again. Given the state of the transfer market, Everton should be looking for a fee in the region of £50m-£55m, maybe with some add-ons thrown in as well.

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50 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Man Utd will win Europa League - not much of a competition aside the team from Lyon/AS Roma tie, maybe Monchengladbach or Schalke which allows them to qualify for next season UCL. How much do you think Eveton will charge for him with 2 years left on his deal? Will you have even with interest from other clubs or selling him?

I have no idea how much we will charge for him. However, we bought him for £28m (I think), and he's much better now, so at least double that, I'd wager.

Still, United is not a sure-fire think wrt CL football. If that's his rationale, I don't think speculating in United yet is all that interesting. They could easily lose out.

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1 hour ago, Rorshach said:

I have no idea how much we will charge for him. However, we bought him for £28m (I think), and he's much better now, so at least double that, I'd wager.

Still, United is not a sure-fire think wrt CL football. If that's his rationale, I don't think speculating in United yet is all that interesting. They could easily lose out.

With 2 years left, I'd say 65m is reasonable because letting him go on fre transfer wouldn't be a good decision. Better to cash on him, same for Costa or Sanchez. Although, I have to say he's likely to end up somewhere in PL whether Chelsea, Man Utd or others. We're more focused on Dembele.

I was more thinking with summer transfer but yeah currently links to Chelsea sounds a bit more plausible. With Man Utd. When you look at their roster, other clubs in Europa League... there is not much of a competition out there. I'd be surprised if Man Utd will miss out on UCL but there is this person called Jose Mourinho. Who knows if Lukaku is keen on working with him.

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3 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Man Utd will win Europa League - not much of a competition aside the team from Lyon/AS Roma tie, maybe Monchengladbach or Schalke which allows them to qualify for next season UCL. How much do you think Eveton will charge for him with 2 years left on his deal? Will you have even with interest from other clubs or selling him?

United got pretty lucky with the draw putting the other four major teams against each other. Whoever of Lyon, Roma, Schalke and Gladbach goes through would have a pretty good chance of stopping them, but the most likely one, Roma, is probably going out.

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