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The perfumed seneschal

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On 5/16/2017 at 5:02 PM, unitron said:

"...  to reach the west you must go east."

 

She ain't never never never ever gettin' to Westeros. :D

 

Unless she goes so far east that she circles the globe and comes in on the Oldtown, Highgarden, Casterly Rock/Lannisport side.

 

 

Personally I think she was gone further East already into the Dothraki sea.  She will go to Westeros after, mayhaps even long after...  To me parts of this story follow the typical fantasy game nerdy things some of us played in our teens where you have to go out on a quest and sometimes, even if you found yourself in a witch's cave or whatever you obtained a magical object.  Okay, speaking kind of metaphorically here but I think Dany needed to get lost in the Great Grass for a reason which will enable her ultimately to go to Westeros.  Personally, I feel this one is perhaps the easiest in the lot of prophecies...

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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I know this is extremely likely to be tinfoil but lol everything else is too obvious or covered by the rest of the description like lion, griffin etc...  I reckon the dangerous one is Quaithe herself, whatever she is...

The dictionary definition of "seneschal" is as vague as "valonquar" if not more.  Basically, a high servant who administers justice and further the goals of whoever he/she serves.  Mel or Quaithe could fulfill that description say.   The one thing that crossed my mind is when LF tells Ned in the first book, "I told you not to trust me!".  Quaithe tells her to trust nobody.  Okay, the problem with this is why "perfumed" but neither are many of the characters that have been put forward, e.g. Tyrion (not particularly perfumed...)  I think this is more metaphorical in terms of "smelling of roses" in the sense that they can do no wrong.  Surely Dany can see faults with all her advisors and especially ambitious new commers... now Quaithe herself???  She has taken a huge interest in Dany from the beginning and we know very little about her... If I were her, she would be my prime suspect lol

Now, the super emerging villain we have is Euron, who fancies himself as a bit of a sorcerer too.  Very tinfoil but, just in case it happens, I will say it:  I would not be surprised if Quaithe and him do not serve the same gods or whatever... or even the chance of becoming gods!  It seems clear from the WOW chapters that Euron is going for something very big magic wise, enslaving all these priests et al; to me they represent the sorcerers in a fantasy game (nothing wrong with that) but whilst Mel may have remorse at some point... not sure either of these two would...  Granted, Quaithe is fascinating but she has given me the creeps, as much as the Undying if not more, from day one so I admit I am bias...

Personally, I think George has presented her (or whatever she is) to us as possibly helping Danny, whereas the Night King or the Great Other or whatever are supposed to be pure evil.  Yet, George deals mainly in grey and I think this is the red herring, Quaithe or whoever she serves is no better than the Great Other.  Possibly  not evil, different motivations, maybe creating a volcanic land in Valiria or something again, no idea but I would rather try and negotiate with the leader of the Walkers than with her lol  My apologies because I am basing most of this on raw instinct but just in case I am right in the end, had to say it lol

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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There’s a passage in ACOK, Daenerys V:

“Dany had not seen him since. His seneschal brought her messages, each cooler than the last.” This passage is in reference to Xaro Xhoan Daxos. People from Quarth are very wealthy and I’m betting smell good. Couldn’t this be the perfumed seneschal to beware of?

Edited by Rhaena Rivers

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ADWD, Daenerys I: Reznak and Skahaz waited atop the marble steps, “Great Queen,” declared Reznak mo Reznak, “you are so radiant today I fear to look on you.” The seneschal wore a tokar of maroon silk with a golden fringe. A small, damp man, he smelled as if he had bathed in perfume...”

My other guess for the perfumed seneschal is Reznak mo Reznak  

 

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On 3/9/2017 at 6:37 PM, SaltThroneHeir said:

Hi there! 

First of all, I have to say that it is my first post on this amazing forum, and I'm glad to join you all ;)

Please excuse my English (since I'm a French fan from West indies) 

My question is about our dear Varys. Could it be him the famous perfumed seneschal ?  

Don't know if you talked about this theory before, but that really hit my mind during second reading, since a seneschal is someone who actively serve a king or a Lord (Aegon in this case) and the guy is known to be very perfumed. 

Dany should indeed beware of him, because he's actually working for Aegon to finally sit and the Iron throne.  

Am I completely late, or... What do you guys think about that? 

I have to add that Aegon is definitely one of my favorite characters, so I hope he's not fake x) 

Ça va? I think Varys is the B side of Illyrio's greatest hit. Varys can't really betray Daenerys because she doesn't really trust him. She thinks of Illyrio as a friend and ally. 

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On 3/10/2017 at 4:38 PM, Smirking Knight said:

I think there's a lot of support for it being the ship Jorah and Tyrion took from Volantis. The red priest translated its name to Tyrion as the "Fragrant Steward" which is a synonymous phrase to "Perfumed Seneschal". 

This is a bit on the nose for some readers, though, but to me it fits with the rest of Quaithe's warnings about the various people headed Dany's way.

I think the ship's name was a set up to tell us that a seneschal is a magister. 

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On 3/10/2017 at 5:55 PM, SaltThroneHeir said:

I've been thinking about that option aswell, but didn't understood the point of it. IMO, it seems pretty obvious that Tyrion wants the good for Dany. Or maybe the warning is about the red priest (who was on the ship) and (the great !) Victarion ?

Another option could be that Quaithe is actually an antagonist... Since she wants Dany to beware of potential friends ?

But Quaithe doesn't seem to be pursuing her own agenda. Rather, she warns Daenerys about others who seek to use Daenerys and her dragons for their own ends, but Quaithe advises her to remember who she is. 

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On 3/10/2017 at 6:02 PM, Smirking Knight said:

Another alternative is that Quaithe, while perhaps not an antagonist, does have her own agenda for Dany (getting her to Asshai for something something dragon magic something?) and for that reason is trying to keep her away from those who would lead her back West before she goes East. 

Quaothe doesn't tell Daenerys to go to Asshai to learn truth; she tells Daenerys that she will not find truth in Qarth...

Quote

Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go to Asshai. "Will the Asshaii give me an army? she demanded. Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth?"

"Truth," said the woman in the mask. And bowing, she faded back into the crowd.

 

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On 3/14/2017 at 11:03 PM, Smirking Knight said:

I don't think the warning about the Perfumed Seneschal will relate to Moqorro. She separately warns Dany about "Kraken and Dark Flame" and Victarian's crew refer to Moqorro as "Black Flame," so to me it definitely reads as a warning about Jorah and Tyrion. Jorah definitely has the potential to mess something up - perhaps he stumbles into some delicate alliance or negotiation and solves it with a sword. I could see him getting into it with Daario, Victarian, or Hizdar if he thinks they're being untoward with Dany. 

My money is on Tryion, though, because even if we see him as a relatively positive protagonist, he definitely will seek to use Dany to his own ends, just like everyone else headed into the Meereenese Knot. Above all else, Quaithe seems to be trying to extract Dany from the situation and from all of the petitioners headed her way. 

Absolutely. He is the lion that Quaithe warns Daenerys about. 

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On 5/16/2017 at 0:02 PM, unitron said:

"...  to reach the west you must go east."

 

She ain't never never never ever gettin' to Westeros. :D

 

Unless she goes so far east that she circles the globe and comes in on the Oldtown, Highgarden, Casterly Rock/Lannisport side.

 

 

She has already traveled east, and she has already traveled south. Now, it's time for her to pass beneath the shadow so she can touch the light.

Daenerys will return to Vaes Dothrak, "beneath the shadow of the Mother of the Mountains"...

  Quote

"To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

Daenerys III, Clash 40 (emphasis added)

  Quote

"Have patience, Princess. Do not make your brother's mistake. We will go home, I promise you."

Home? The word made her feel sad. Ser Jorah had his Bear Island, but what was home to her? A few tales, names recited as solemnly as the words of a prayer, the fading memory of a red door . . . was Vaes Dothrak to be her home forever? When she looked at the crones of the dosh khaleen, was she looking at her future?

...

... But with the khal off hunting, it was pleasant to lie back on soft cushions and be carried across Vaes Dothrak, ...

The day was warm and cloudless, the sky a deep blue. When the wind blew, she could smell the rich scents of grass and earth. As her litter passed beneath the stolen monuments, she went from sunlight to shadow and back again. Dany swayed along, studying the faces of dead heroes and forgotten kings. She wondered if the gods of burned cities could still answer prayers.

If I were not the blood of the dragon, she thought wistfully, this could be my home. She was khaleesi, she had a strong man and a swift horse, handmaids to serve her, warriors to keep her safe, an honored place in the dosh khaleen awaiting her when she grew old . . . and in her womb grew a son who would one day bestride the world. That should be enough for any woman . . . but not for the dragon. With Viserys gone, Daenerys was the last, the very last. She was the seed of kings and conquerors, and so too the child inside her. She must not forget.

Daenerys VI, Game 54 (emphasis added)

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On 7/12/2017 at 9:10 AM, Weirwood Ghost said:

Seneschal: an officer having full charge of domestic arrangements, ceremonies, the administration of justice, etc., in the household of a medieval prince or dignitary; steward. Origin of seneschal. Middle French. Frankish. Medieval Latin http://www.dictionary.com/browse/seneschal

This appears to be Varys. But Varys is in league with Illyrio who was harboring Dany and Viserys at his manse prior to her betrothal to Khal Drogo.

Thoughts Dany has of Illyrio Mopatis in Chapter III Daenerys GoT is that of distrust. The above describes someone of Varys position, but there is more to Illyrio.  Illyrio uses perfumes too:

"Dany could smell the stench of Illyrio's pallid flesh through his heavy perfumes."

Dany's thoughts betray that she distrusts Illyrio:

"Dany had no agents, no way of knowing what anyone was doing or thinking across the narrow sea, but she mistrusted Illyrio's sweet words as she mistrusted everything about Illyrio."

Intriguingly Tyrion has thoughts of mistrust of Illyrio the "Cheesemonger" in Tyrion Chapter I ADWD:

"Any friend of Varys the Spider is someone I will trust just as far as I can throw him."

With all the organisation and pomp Illyrio goes to (arrange), to provide a ceremony (ceremonies) of Dany and Drogo, administer in justice according to local/cultural customs, having to do with a prince or dignitary (Drogo)....Illyrio with all the strings he is pulling, has to be the perfumed seneschal Dany is warned of by Quaithe.

This. 

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The perfumed seneschal could be Septa Lemore.

I think, that Septa Lemore is Lady Jeyne Swann, that was saved by Barristan Selmy from Kingswood Brotherhood in 281. So Jeyne and Barristan are, possibly, parents of fAegon. Also, maybe, Barristan is a grandson of Aenys Blackfyre. Could be, that Swanns are bloodrelated to Blackfyres, because, possibly, Johanna Swann, the Black Swan of Lys, was mother of Larra Rogare, and thus, all Blackfyres are partially Swanns. Rogare family had a brothel in Lys, Perfumed Garden. I think, that after Johanna Swann was captured by pirates, she was sold to Perfumed Garden, and was working there for some time, until she was taken from there by Lysandro Rogare, who then has married with her. Maybe, it was Johanna, who has orchestrated the fall of Rogare family, because she hated Lysandro, and because out of all of Lysandro's children, only Larra was Johanna's child. All those people in Lys, that were mysteriously killed after fall of Rogares, were Johanna's ex-clients from Perfumed Garden - Lysandro and his brother Drazenko, Torreo Haen, Silvario Pendaerys and his brother Pereno, Moreo Dagareon, and Matteno Orthys.

If Johanna Swann is really Larra Rogare's mother, and she was working in the Perfumed Garden, and if Septa Lemore is really Jeyne Swann, then Lemore could be the perfumed seneschal.

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Just throwing this out there - Jon started out a steward in the Night's Watch, Jon will never claim Winterfell for himself so he would be acting as its steward, and  perfume could be metaphorical (A blue flower smells sweet). Another possibility is Varys switching to Jon.

 

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On 3/9/2017 at 3:37 PM, SaltThroneHeir said:

Hi there! 

First of all, I have to say that it is my first post on this amazing forum, and I'm glad to join you all ;)

Please excuse my English (since I'm a French fan from West indies) 

My question is about our dear Varys. Could it be him the famous perfumed seneschal ?  

Don't know if you talked about this theory before, but that really hit my mind during second reading, since a seneschal is someone who actively serve a king or a Lord (Aegon in this case) and the guy is known to be very perfumed. 

Dany should indeed beware of him, because he's actually working for Aegon to finally sit and the Iron throne.  

Am I completely late, or... What do you guys think about that? 

I have to add that Aegon is definitely one of my favorite characters, so I hope he's not fake x) 

Just joined as well! Nice to have ya here! :cheers:

Varys is always mentioned as being perfumed, and he calls himself a "servant of the realm"...or a seneschal, as it were. 

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On 12/10/2018 at 4:09 PM, Megorova said:

The perfumed seneschal could be Septa Lemore.

I think, that Septa Lemore is Lady Jeyne Swann, that was saved by Barristan Selmy from Kingswood Brotherhood in 281. So Jeyne and Barristan are, possibly, parents of fAegon. Also, maybe, Barristan is a grandson of Aenys Blackfyre. Could be, that Swanns are bloodrelated to Blackfyres, because, possibly, Johanna Swann, the Black Swan of Lys, was mother of Larra Rogare, and thus, all Blackfyres are partially Swanns. Rogare family had a brothel in Lys, Perfumed Garden. I think, that after Johanna Swann was captured by pirates, she was sold to Perfumed Garden, and was working there for some time, until she was taken from there by Lysandro Rogare, who then has married with her. Maybe, it was Johanna, who has orchestrated the fall of Rogare family, because she hated Lysandro, and because out of all of Lysandro's children, only Larra was Johanna's child. All those people in Lys, that were mysteriously killed after fall of Rogares, were Johanna's ex-clients from Perfumed Garden - Lysandro and his brother Drazenko, Torreo Haen, Silvario Pendaerys and his brother Pereno, Moreo Dagareon, and Matteno Orthys.

If Johanna Swann is really Larra Rogare's mother, and she was working in the Perfumed Garden, and if Septa Lemore is really Jeyne Swann, then Lemore could be the perfumed seneschal.

Just seeing all those names of the people in Lys....

More intrigue in Essos coming? It makes my head spin.

Well, it's good to know that none of the Dany, Tyrion, Barristan and Victarion chapters in The Winds of Winter are going to be boring. And then when you think about it, it'll be refreshing for Dany to arrive with an actual court, a fully-staffed Small Council and an even bigger of her own in A Dream of Spring. Not only will she have all of the Dothraki and Unsullied in Essos, but she'll have scores of former slaves, some of the Fiery Hand and a patchwork of warriors from the Free Cities, most likely Lys, Myr, Tyrosh and Pentos.

Heh, A Dream of Spring. Reminds you of the Lysene Spring that occurred after the aftermath of the Targaryen civil war that consumed Westerosi politics for years before its bitter end.

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I think Perfumed Seneschal could be someone from the Citadel. Leo Tyrell did said Maesters killed the dragons the first time, and it was Archmaester Walgrave who rised Maester Cressen aka the Citadel had ties with Southern Ambitious. It was Marwyn who taught Mirri and now he goes to Daenerys with information about Maester Aemon believing her to be Azor Ahai. You think Marwyn can be trusted?

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I personally think the perfumed Seneschal is another universal symbol that is used to link the different story lines with each other,  just like bells are used throughout multiple books and storylines as a symbol of impending doom:

“Mind the bells. Those who come late to meals won’t eat.” That’s what Masha says to Catelyn back in book 1. This line clearly foreshadows the red wedding, but it actually applies to many other situations just as well, e.g. Cressen and Patchface, Dany and the Dothraki, Jon Connington and the Battle of the Bells....

Therefore I suppose that each character who is at this point in the story close to one of the Seneschal candidates should beware of him/ her... or should have been ... like Kevan with Varys, Dany with Reznak, Tyrion with the SQ.... so Samwell might do better in the next book to mistrust the Seneschal of the Citadel as well?

 

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On 9/8/2017 at 10:52 PM, Damon_Tor said:

It's the boat. The Stinky Steward.

This. The Perfumed Senechal is the ship.

Glass Candles are some type of device where you can see who's where in the current time, but you cannot see the future. Quaithe knows enough from Moqorro that he thinks this ship will get him to Mereen, except it never does.

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1 hour ago, OneFretfulTrout said:

I personally think the perfumed Seneschal is another universal symbol that is used to link the different story lines with each other,  just like bells are used throughout multiple books and storylines as a symbol of impending doom:

“Mind the bells. Those who come late to meals won’t eat.” That’s what Masha says to Catelyn back in book 1. This line clearly foreshadows the red wedding, but it actually applies to many other situations just as well, e.g. Cressen and Patchface, Dany and the Dothraki, Jon Connington and the Battle of the Bells....

Therefore I suppose that each character who is at this point in the story close to one of the Seneschal candidates should beware of him/ her... or should have been ... like Kevan with Varys, Dany with Reznak, Tyrion with the SQ.... so Samwell might do better in the next book to mistrust the Seneschal of the Citadel as well?

 

And Jon's senechal was Bowen Marsh, Lord steward of the Wall. 

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