Re-opening an old can of worms on an Old Nan topic for fresh analysis. (Novella content).

[Clegane'sPup]

@Macgregor of the North

Well, I don't know know how many other people have been told via pm to stay off your treads, but I am one. Oye,why you still talking? Isn't past your allotted time.

Anyway,

To me the point of the Mystery Knight story was the use of a tourney to gather a bunch of people together who wanted to have another rebellion against the throne. I mean the egg did go missing and BR did pretty much admit that the dwarves stole it.

Lady Frey, the bride is said to be 15. Supposedly young Walder Frey came upon his elder sister doing the wild thing with a Frey servant at the Twins and poppa Frey decided she needed to be wed.

Quote

 

The Mystery Knight  "How so?" The Fiddler held up an empty wine cup, and a passing server filled it. Ser Maynard glanced toward the dais, where the bride was feeding cherries to her husband.

"His Lordship will not be the first to butter that biscuit. His bride was deflowered by a scullion at the Twins, they say. She would creep down to the kitchens to meet him. Alas, one night that little brother of hers crept down after her. When he saw them making the two-backed beast, he let out a shriek, and cooks and guardsmen came running and found milady and her pot boy coupling on the slab of marble where the cook rolls out the dough, both naked as their name day and floured up from head to heel."

 

There were other Frey sisters accompanied by their husbands at the wedding.

Quote

 

The Mystery Knight   No sooner had he spoken than Ambrose Butterwell made his entrance, to a fanfare of trumpets from the minstrel's gallery. Dunk shoved to his feet with the rest as Butterwell escorted his new bride down a patterned Myrish carpet to the dais, arm in arm. The girl was fifteen and freshly flowered, her lord husband fifty and freshly widowed. She was pink and he was grey. Her bride's cloak trailed behind her, done in candy green and white and yellow. It looked so hot and heavy that Dunk wondered how she could bear to wear it. Lord Butterwell looked hot and heavy too, with his heavy jowls and thinning flaxen hair.

The bride's father followed close behind her, hand in hand with his young son. Lord Frey of the Crossing was a lean man elegant in blue and grey, his heir a chinless boy of four whose nose was dripping snot. Lords Costayne and Risley came next, with their lady wives, daughters of Lord Butterwell by his first wife. Frey's daughters followed with their own husbands.

 

Bran Stark gives a short history of Nan. The PoV is through the eyes of an eight year old child.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV  The old woman smiled at him toothlessly. "My stories? No, my little lord, not mine. The stories are, before me and after me, before you too."

She was a very ugly old woman, Bran thought spitefully; shrunken and wrinkled, almost blind, too weak to climb stairs, with only a few wisps of white hair left to cover a mottled pink scalp. No one really knew how old she was, but his father said she'd been called Old Nan even when he was a boy. She was the oldest person in Winterfell for certain, maybe the oldest person in the Seven Kingdoms. Nan had come to the castle as a wet nurse for a Brandon Stark whose mother had died birthing him. He had been an older brother of Lord Rickard, Bran's grandfather, or perhaps a younger brother, or a brother to Lord Rickard's father. Sometimes Old Nan told it one way and sometimes another. In all the stories the little boy died at three of a summer chill, but Old Nan stayed on at Winterfell with her own children. She had lost both her sons to the war when King Robert won the throne, and her grandson was killed on the walls of Pyke during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion. Her daughters had long ago married and moved away and died. All that was left of her own blood was Hodor, the simpleminded giant who worked in the stables, but Old Nan just lived on and on, doing her needlework and telling her stories.

 

For me the question is did Nan have a husband? I mean she supposedly had two sons who died during Robert’s Rebellion. She lost a grandson during Greyjoy’s Rebellion. Her daughters moved away from WF (?).  How did Nan come to be in the guardianship of Hodor?  AND did all this procreating take place at WF?  Did she bring a husband and child with her when she somehow arrived at WF to wet nurse a Stark named Brandon?

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

And who the heck named Hodor anyway? Don't say GRRM. I already know that.

You'd think his parents would have chosen the name, but why would grandchildren of Walder's sister name their son after a man they didn't know...hoping for an inheritance like with all the variations of Joe in Greedy?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

14 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I do see where your coming from and could easily see a Blackwood lass being naked in the pool for sure but the lass isn't described as having flowing black hair. 

After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

 

Gosh, you know it is amazing how the human brain can convince you of a thing. I swear down I was certain she had long black hair. Been a few years since I've read through dance in its entirety as I'm saving myself for a boiled leather read when the release date for winds is announced. 

Obviously, I'd decided she is melantha then built my mental image of her based on the descriptions of Blackwood women we get. And somewhere along the way my mental image became so strong I decided that it was a written description. 

I stand corrected.  Still totally want it to be Melantha Blackwood mind. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

14 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

you could have just accepted my compliment, but here it goes.
For your edits:
1: Or say, traveling to the north, in a place where seasons are not normal, in a wagon or wheelhouse, covering herself up so she is not recognized as the former Ms. Butterwell.  So, this fits perfectly with what you said and it fits into this particular theory. So again, thank you, it is awesome.
2: Again, she is traveling far to escape her former disgraced husband. She wouldn't have much coin so she wouldn't have access to the best food on her journey. 
both of these things fit wonderfully into the the possibilities laid out in the OP.  And really, this is a fantasy novel where 300+ years of brother/sister incest leave physically beautiful offspring that can still reproduce with little problems, so as we are all rewriting the story to make this theory work, a little give and take on rickets is entirely possible too 

 

I am trying very hard to be kind here. But this I've spent 8 years of my life doing breastfeeding councilling. So yeah I'm gonna be finickity about it.  Still wouldn't be caused by breastfeeding. Would be caused by a lack of exposure to sunlight and restricted access to vitamin D rich foods. 

Also you'd be amazed what the human body can do. in those circumstances it would be the mother whose health suffered. The foetus would likely be ok. As when we are pregnant and nursing our bodies prioritise the health of our off spring and the mothers stores of any given vitamin or mineral will be left depleted before our children begin to go without. And frankly even in the North a pale skinned woman will be exposed to enough Vit d to provide for herself and her child just by being exposed to the daylight on her journey. Which is far more likely to be on horseback than in a covered wagon. we see very few people travel via waggons at all, let alone covered ones in these books.  And if she were travelling with Dunk & egg as proposed she'd not want for food. All egg needs to do is flash his ring in any tavern and they would receive the best that establishment has to offer. No one needs to be starving in this scenario and the world we are set in means that all animal products are produced by stock which has spent it's entire life outdoors and so would be rich in Vitamin D. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

11 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

For me the question is did Nan have a husband? I mean she supposedly had two sons who died during Robert’s Rebellion. She lost a grandson during Greyjoy’s Rebellion. Her daughters moved away from WF (?).  How did Nan come to be in the guardianship of Hodor?  AND did all this procreating take place at WF?  Did she bring a husband and child with her when she somehow arrived at WF to wet nurse a Stark named Brandon?

 

I think the obvious answer is that Hodor is the son of the grandson who died in the Greyjoy rebellion. And that is why he is at WF. The Greyjoy rebellion is the most recent of these losses and Hodor is quite young still if I recall. maybe mid-twenties at most? 

So it seems logical that his father died in the rebellion which was, what 10 years ago? so would have been a child at the time. And he had nowhere to go after he was orphaned, or maybe his mother is alive? But she likewise had no where to go once her husband was dead? Just because his mother is not mentioned doesn't mean Old Nan is his sole guardian?

But that is my guess at his origins. He is her great grandson, and she lost a grandson in the Greyjoy rebellion which was not that long ago, his son would logically be given over to her care if his mother was no longer alive. And if she was, she might feasibly go live at the castle as she no longer had anyone to provide for them, and her husband was killed in lord Starks service.  And her grandmother in law works there, giving her an "in". 

[Clegane'sPup]

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think the obvious answer is that Hodor is the son of the grandson who died in the Greyjoy rebellion. And that is why he is at WF. The Greyjoy rebellion is the most recent of these losses and Hodor is quite young still if I recall. maybe mid-twenties at most? 

So it seems logical that his father died in the rebellion which was, what 10 years ago? so would have been a child at the time. And he had nowhere to go after he was orphaned, or maybe his mother is alive? But she likewise had no where to go once her husband was dead? Just because his mother is not mentioned doesn't mean Old Nan is his sole guardian?

But that is my guess at his origins. He is her great grandson, and she lost a grandson in the Greyjoy rebellion which was not that long ago, his son would logically be given over to her care if his mother was no longer alive. And if she was, she might feasibly go live at the castle as she no longer had anyone to provide for them, and her husband was killed in lord Starks service.  And her grandmother in law works there, giving her an "in". 

What I’m trying to shed a light on is the only information I have about Old Nan is what Bran said:

Quote

She was a very ugly old woman, Bran thought spitefully; shrunken and wrinkled, almost blind, too weak to climb stairs, with only a few wisps of white hair left to cover a mottled pink scalp. No one really knew how old she was, but his father said she'd been called Old Nan even when he was a boy. She was the oldest person in Winterfell for certain, maybe the oldest person in the Seven Kingdoms. Nan had come to the castle as a wet nurse for a Brandon Stark whose mother had died birthing him. He had been an older brother of Lord Rickard, Bran's grandfather, or perhaps a younger brother, or a brother to Lord Rickard's father. Sometimes Old Nan told it one way and sometimes another. In all the stories the little boy died at three of a summer chill, but Old Nan stayed on at Winterfell with her own children. She had lost both her sons to the war when King Robert won the throne, and her grandson was killed on the walls of Pyke during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion. Her daughters had long ago married and moved away and died. All that was left of her own blood was Hodor, the simpleminded giant who worked in the stables, but Old Nan just lived on and on, doing her needlework and telling her stories.

I don’t see the OP fitting that description. If Lady Frey, Lord Butterwell’s wife and Walder Frey’s elder sister went with Dunk, Bran’s story would be different. Sure it could be said that Lady Frey, as she is called, left and went with Dunk to WF and upon arriving at WF she gave birth to a child that she conceived at the Twins by servant.

There is too little information to go on. I’m not going to get in lactation debate and I don’t think Martin did a lot of research about it. <My opinion and you what opinions are like, everyone has one.

I seem to remember reading on this forum the author supposedly voiced that Nan & Hodor’s back-story will eventually be revealed. Whether that is true or not, I do not know. Anyone have a SSM?

If Nan had two sons and an unknown number of daughters I would think she would have had a husband hanging around somewhere.

Trying to figure out where Nan came from is not an easy task given the lack of information. The OP did a good job in the presentation, but as I said, I don’t think Nan is Butterwell’s wife. Curiously she fainted when her cousin Addam was unhorsed. Potential baby daddy there.

The topic of Old Nan could bring some useful information and ideas to light if given room to expand to other posters point of view.

Martin has given the reader his ideas about wet nurses. Gilly took on Dalla’s son. When Jon sent Gilly away he said he would find a replacement. Sure enough two were brought to the Wall. What I don’t know is whether a husband & baby came with them.

Same thing with the Wylla, Jon & Dayne story. Very vague how that situation came about.

I forget more of the ASOIAF story than I remember. Clearly Nan has lived at WF a long time. Mostly likely as you said Hodor is the son of Nan’s grandson. Where she came from I do not know. To to my way of thinking, when it comes to speculation based on speculation there needs to be room to maneuver around and for people to agree and disagree open-mindedly.

Besides Nan’s multitude of story’s she also seems to know a bit about KL, the Red Keep and the Kingsguard. Seems to me Martin tells stories within stories.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran II   For days, Bran could scarcely wait to be off. He was going to ride the kingsroad on a horse of his own, not a pony but a real horse. His father would be the Hand of the King, and they were going to live in the red castle at King's Landing, the castle the Dragonlords had built. Old Nan said there were ghosts there, and dungeons where terrible things had been done, and dragon heads on the walls. It gave Bran a shiver just to think of it, but he was not afraid. How could he be afraid? His father would be with him, and the king with all his knights and sworn swords.

Bran was going to be a knight himself someday, one of the Kingsguard. Old Nan said they were the finest swords in all the realm. There were only seven of them, and they wore white armor and had no wives or children, but lived only to serve the king. Bran knew all the stories. Their names were like music to him. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. Ser Ryam Redwyne. Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. The twins Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, who had died on one another's swords hundreds of years ago, when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Barristan the Bold.

 

Bran would have learned some of the above information from Maester Luwin. Me, the reader, on a first read had no idea what all that meant. I wonder who told Nan about the dragon heads on the walls. Perhaps Eddard. Perhaps Nan embellished the story of Rickard’s and Brandon’s death. OR perhaps she had been there once upon a time. Perhaps I will never know; that is what speculation is about. Unable to prove or disprove, merely thoughts, ideas and speculation.

Argh, I clicked sumthin I wasn't spose to click. Oh well, forgive me my errors great and small.

 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

22 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Dorian Martell's son

I honestly believe you think you are humorous on here 

The other day I had someone private message me and say, is that really the same guy who used to be Dorian Martell. I never knew he got banned, I used to avoid him but now I know this is his new name I'll be avoiding this newer version, thanks for the confirmation. Lol, you are known on here man! And seriously, I don't make things like that up. People really do think of you like that.

You get attention man, and not for the right reasons. Threads you come on go sour dude, seriously. Ive seen it happen more than a few times and the serious consequences of that is posts getting deleted, people getting warned, and people getting banned. Oh, well, that was just you haha. 

Go crave attention on someone else's thread instead of creeping on mine like you always do, your times up here. It's like you stalk me man. 

you keep saying you are done, yet here you are. I recommend therapy to help you turn deeds into actions. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I am trying very hard to be kind here. But this I've spent 8 years of my life doing breastfeeding councilling. So yeah I'm gonna be finickity about it.  Still wouldn't be caused by breastfeeding. Would be caused by a lack of exposure to sunlight and restricted access to vitamin D rich foods. 

I'm not questioning your knowledge of the subject, but maybe check this out: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1633557/

13 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Also you'd be amazed what the human body can do. in those circumstances it would be the mother whose health suffered. The foetus would likely be ok. As when we are pregnant and nursing our bodies prioritise the health of our off spring and the mothers stores of any given vitamin or mineral will be left depleted before our children begin to go without. And frankly even in the North a pale skinned woman will be exposed to enough Vit d to provide for herself and her child just by being exposed to the daylight on her journey. Which is far more likely to be on horseback than in a covered wagon. we see very few people travel via waggons at all, let alone covered ones in these books.  And if she were travelling with Dunk & egg as proposed she'd not want for food. All egg needs to do is flash his ring in any tavern and they would receive the best that establishment has to offer. No one needs to be starving in this scenario and the world we are set in means that all animal products are produced by stock which has spent it's entire life outdoors and so would be rich in Vitamin D. 

I agree the human body is amazing. But the possibility of her remaining covered to hide from a spurned husband would be very likely. Also, we see what D&E eat on the road, and it isn't very good. Lots of salted beef and porridge. Not exactly the most nutritional fare for a pregnant breastfeeding woman 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

15 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

17 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

What I’m trying to shed a light on is the only information I have about Old Nan is what Bran said:

I don’t see the OP fitting that description. If Lady Frey, Lord Butterwell’s wife and Walder Frey’s elder sister went with Dunk, Bran’s story would be different. Sure it could be said that Lady Frey, as she is called, left and went with Dunk to WF and upon arriving at WF she gave birth to a child that she conceived at the Twins by servant.

There is too little information to go on. I’m not going to get in lactation debate and I don’t think Martin did a lot of research about it. <My opinion and you what opinions are like, everyone has one.

I seem to remember reading on this forum the author supposedly voiced that Nan & Hodor’s back-story will eventually be revealed. Whether that is true or not, I do not know. Anyone have a SSM?

If Nan had two sons and an unknown number of daughters I would think she would have had a husband hanging around somewhere.

Trying to figure out where Nan came from is not an easy task given the lack of information. The OP did a good job in the presentation, but as I said, I don’t think Nan is Butterwell’s wife. Curiously she fainted when her cousin Addam was unhorsed. Potential baby daddy there.

The topic of Old Nan could bring some useful information and ideas to light if given room to expand to other posters point of view.

Martin has given the reader his ideas about wet nurses. Gilly took on Dalla’s son. When Jon sent Gilly away he said he would find a replacement. Sure enough two were brought to the Wall. What I don’t know is whether a husband & baby came with them.

Same thing with the Wylla, Jon & Dayne story. Very vague how that situation came about.

I forget more of the ASOIAF story than I remember. Clearly Nan has lived at WF a long time. Mostly likely as you said Hodor is the son of Nan’s grandson. Where she came from I do not know. To to my way of thinking, when it comes to speculation based on speculation there needs to be room to maneuver around and for people to agree and disagree open-mindedly.

Besides Nan’s multitude of story’s she also seems to know a bit about KL, the Red Keep and the Kingsguard. Seems to me Martin tells stories within stories.

Bran would have learned some of the above information from Maester Luwin. Me, the reader, on a first read had no idea what all that meant. I wonder who told Nan about the dragon heads on the walls. Perhaps Eddard. Perhaps Nan embellished the story of Rickard’s and Brandon’s death. OR perhaps she had been there once upon a time. Perhaps I will never know; that is what speculation is about. Unable to prove or disprove, merely thoughts, ideas and speculation.

Argh, I clicked sumthin I wasn't spose to click. Oh well, forgive me my errors great and small.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why is this post even directed at me? 

I'm not actually arguing for this theory, in fact I directly said. I think Old nan is just a Northern woman.  I only came here to provide expert knowledge. 

As much as I said I think the theory turned out to be better than I had expected. I still don't buy into it. 

[Clegane'sPup]

59 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Why is this post even directed at me? 

I thought we were having a conversation about the topic, Nan and Hodor. Guess I was incorrect.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

15 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I'm not questioning your knowledge of the subject, but maybe check this out: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1633557/

I agree the human body is amazing. But the possibility of her remaining covered to hide from a spurned husband would be very likely. Also, we see what D&E eat on the road, and it isn't very good. Lots of salted beef and porridge. Not exactly the most nutritional fare for a pregnant breastfeeding woman 

 

 

 

Firstly what you've done there is called moving the goal posts.  You made a statement, that breastfeeding whilst pregnant is a cause of Rickets. It isn't. And after having all the reasons it isn't pointed out to you by someone who evidently has a far wider knowledge of human lactation than you.  Instead of graciously acknowledging that you were wrong you have dug out the above article. Which does not pertain to breastfeeding during pregnancy at all. And in fact is about a theory regarding rickets in the offspring of those sent out to be wet nursed.

 Which is not the same as the statement you made regarding pregnancy and breastfeeding. 

The paper you just posted is very sketchy, it makes an assumption based on one small study (35 mothers) which does not in fact mention decreased calcium content over an extended period of lactation at all. It discovered that in Nigeria amongst these 35 women those whose children had rickets were found to have lower calcium content in their own bone samples.

This is a good example of how studies can be manipulated in order to "prove" a theory.  The way breastmilk is made involves extracting calcium from the mother's actual bones, and then post-lactation there is a process whereby women's bodies "repair" the bones by absorbing calcium more readily from dietary factors and lays down extra calcium in their bones, resulting in stronger bones than they had pre-breastfeeding. This is why women who have breastfed are less at risk of Osteoporosis than those who have not breastfed.

These women in Nigeria obviously had less calcium in their bones to begin with. As those whose children did not have rickets had higher levels of calcium in their bones. Again nothing to do with breastfeeding whilst pregnant. 

Another factor which needs to be taken into account in regards to the  hypothesis made in the above artice is the fact that the Ricketts stricken children were not the women's biological children. Meaning the women would be naturally less inclined to prioritise their nutrition. They were just a source of income. It mentioned the usage of non-dairy pap and I think this is likely a more accurate cause of rickets in these wet nursed children. A cheap, cereal based, runny food usually made of flours and sometimes containing wine.

Also the fact breastmilk is free and high-quality foods are expensive may mean that some nurses delayed the introduction of solids; barring the aforementioned cheap and crappy pap which was commonly used from mere days old as a means to stretch time between feeds and allow women to leave infants with non-lactating relatives to attend to other jobs, and also to attempt to adhere to the rigid baby feeding routines which were becoming increasingly fashionable at that time. Meaning they were not consuming calcium-rich foods at the point where human children's growth needs means they need to begin eating other foods alongside breastmilk.

Indeed the whole notion that babies should be in a routine and only fed at certain time intervals stems from that period; when male doctors would write books instructing mothers to not "overfeed" their infants, lest dreadful consequences occur. Meaning some wet nurses would even have been instructed to grossly underfeed their charges by the parents who may have bought into these "learned" gentlemen's theories about overfeeding.

What we understand now about infant feeding was a total mystery back then, well other to the millions of women just getting on with tending to their babies without the interference of these men and their ideas. And this idea that babies ought not be fed on demand still afflicts us today. With many new mothers being instructed by older relatives, well-meaning friends and indeed some misguided books written by so-called childcare "experts" to use routines & spaced feedings.

 The other factor may indeed be as they hypothesised; that over the extended period of lactation undertaken by a professional wet nurse and we are talking years and years here. The body may become so depleted of calcium that it simply can not let enough of it go for the making of milk and thus her milk has a low calcium content. Because, the ability to absorb extra calcium kicks in after lactation ceases. But that is only a theory and the article doesn't prove that idea, only proposes it. And uses the Nigeria study to back it up. But as we've discovered the Nigeria study didn't find that all women's breatmilk calcium content depletes over time at all. Which is what they implied in the article.

You also seem to have decided that Lady Butterwell would be in danger of afflicting her offspring and Brandon when she arrived at WF with rickets because you think she'd be travelling in a covered waggon?  May I remind you that I don't actually think Nan is Lady Frey. It's not impossible but it seems unlikely to me.  And we have absolutely no reason to believe she would be travelling in a covered waggon, Dunk doesn't even have a waggon? 

You appear to think that breastmilk quality is directly correlated to maternal diet. Guess what it isn't. In fact, a mother can eat a pretty shitty diet and still produce perfectly good breastmilk. Because the milk is made from her blood, not her stomach contents. The body draws upon the mother's own nutritional reserves, her blood, body fat and her bones. And whilst her diet influences her bodies reserves it is what she ate previously which will affect her milk as the body depletes itself and prioritises the quality of the milk it makes over maternal health. Indeed it does this during pregnancy as well. So a short period of poor diet wouldn't affect her milk.

 If you're not questioning my knowledge on the subject maybe accept that three years of study and 8 years of hands on (not literally we don't touch women's tits, as a rule, cos they tend to find it rude.) experience working with mothers means I know what I'm on about. 

I'm not going to engage further on this subject as it's too far off topic. As clegane's pup points out; I doubt GRRM did extensive research about breastfeeding when writing the novels. I've answered the question I was tagged in this thread to answer. And I'd rather discuss the OP than work.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

6 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I thought we were having a conversation about the topic, Nan and Hodor. Guess I was incorrect.

 

I just mean that I haven't been arguing the position that your post was countering?  So I didn't know why you had quoted me and seemed to be addressing the post to me. 

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I just mean that I haven't been arguing the position that your post was countering?  So I didn't know why you had quoted me and seemed to be addressing the post to me. 

You responded to a post I made. Then I responded to your response. I thought we were entering into a conversation about the topic, Nan and Hodor. Evidently I made a mistake and you weren’t interested.  Hopefully I have answered your question. Thanks.

The only position I will have to counter is when the originator of the thread comes back and starts taking my inventory. Hopefully she will ignore me and clamp a lid on that “old can of worms.” < that’s part of the thread title.

[Macgregor of the North]

On 17/03/2017 at 10:52 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

And who the heck named Hodor anyway? Don't say GRRM. I already know that.

You'd think his parents would have chosen the name, but why would grandchildren of Walder's sister name their son after a man they didn't know...hoping for an inheritance like with all the variations of Joe in Greedy?

The possibility that one or both of Hodor/Walders parents named him Walder in regards to some connection to House Frey, or even in order to curry some sort of favour with Lord Walder Frey was and always will be what first kickstarted any interest in beginning discussions on this topic.

Its interesting why GRRM decided to have Hodor named this way. 

Perhaps Hodors mother learned of her family history somehow and thought if she named her son Walder and could explain to old Walder any family history she had learned she could be allowed to live at the twins with her son?. Maybe House Frey weren't impressed and sent them away and Hodor somehow ended up with his Great Grandmother in the North. 

All we can do is speculate but the name is likely what tweaked everyone's interest in the first place. It's what lured me to the possibility, along with a few reads of the Mystery Knight and seeing the timelines match up (in my opinion). 

@Seams brought something new to the table I believe with the whole Butterwells/Cows/Milk/Milk in their blood stuff which now that she mentions it, does conjure up ideas of a wet nurse if you care to make the connection. 

This whole thing is actually a harder theory to debunk than most theories you see floating around here, and I genuinely mean that. 

[Macgregor of the North]

 

@Clegane'sPup a long time ago it was shown that you are better ignored on here, so don't waste your time tagging me in hopes I'll talk with you about topics I begin. Your buddy Dorian Martell is heading that way soon too but I've felt the need to dish out some harsh truths to him, which I have and they are ingrained in his mind now. 

Im sure that in time when you both continue to come on my threads hoping to discuss the books with me, my silence will be enough to give you pause for thought and realise that you are wasting your time and will move on to other threads with your amazing attitudes. 

The time will come I'm confident, and other posters will have to give you both the attention you girls and guys crave. I can no longer help you in that department, no matter how much you crave discussions with me. And if you disagree on the last fact I stated, prove it that you don't. Be my guest 

[Macgregor of the North]

On 18/03/2017 at 8:27 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Gosh, you know it is amazing how the human brain can convince you of a thing. I swear down I was certain she had long black hair. Been a few years since I've read through dance in its entirety as I'm saving myself for a boiled leather read when the release date for winds is announced. 

Obviously, I'd decided she is melantha then built my mental image of her based on the descriptions of Blackwood women we get. And somewhere along the way my mental image became so strong I decided that it was a written description. 

I stand corrected.  Still totally want it to be Melantha Blackwood mind. 

 

I know what you mean mate, it happens with these books. So much details it's easy for things to get jumbled up. 

I have also thought that the lass in the pool was a Blackwood but mainly because I could just see a mysterious sexy Blackwood chick swimming around in the pool naked and then pleading for the Old Gods to give her a son to avenge her, but a few reasons gives me pause. 

First, IF, the kissing vision is Old Nan with Dunk, I think that vision and the naked pool girl vision may be a bit too close in generation. I tend to think they may be spaced out slightly more.

Also, the World book Stark tree shows Edwyle was born before Jocelyn and that has never ever been openly corrected by GRRM, while he has taken the time to correct Jocelyns husbands name to Benedict Royce where it was incorrectly written as Rogers. 

And there are other women it may be. Marna Locke? She may have received some shitty treatment for whatever reason and wishes for a son to avenge her (that son would be Rickard). This may work in better if the generations are spread out a bit more. 

Also, what about Jocelyn herself? She may be getting pushed away to the south when she doesn't really want to for whatever reason and it's her we see hoping for a son to avenge her?. 

Theres a few possibilities, but I admit I'm with you as far as that I was drawn to think of the lass as a Blackwood upon first analysis.

I hope it gets cleared up soon. 

[Macgregor of the North]

On 17/03/2017 at 9:09 PM, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

I feel like my thought was overlooked.... 

I had no intention to do that, I assure you. There's a couple posters on here who usually turn up with undesirable attitudes and I make the mistake of humouring them which takes me off topic. They have been dealt with now and I'll endeavour to stay on topic. 

I'll have another look at your posts mate and give them my best response ok, I hardly come on at the weekend either so just getting back to things now. 

@direpupy same with you, I'll hike back to your last couple posts and write up a response, it will likely be based on the idea that Dunk is basically the perfect model of the helpful Knight who saves damsels in distress. We have seen this side of him, plus he is a sucker for the ladies. Bigtime.

Isnt that a healthy enough reason to believe that if the girl latched on to him and Egg seeking aid, that they would help her escape a life of being tainted with treason and also any future children having the same fate?. 

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I don't know if this was already mentioned but isn't it implied Brienne is a descendant of Dunk? If Hodor is Dunk's that would mean he really got around planting his seed.

[Macgregor of the North]

On 17/03/2017 at 7:45 PM, direpupy said:

@Macgregor of the North

Basically what i am asking off you is give me a compeling reason why she would take the awfully big leap of faith that Dunk and Egg would be willing to help her. And please don't come with Ambrose is old and done because hanging around old and done untill a beter opurtunity comes along is beter then complete uncertainty.

If you can do this then i am willing to for the sake of argument let go of my other problem with the theory, namely  why in the name of the seven would she want to give up her life as a noble lady and become a servant.

Ok direpupy, what I am basically trying to get you to see the possibility of is this girl wanting out of a life of being tainted with treason with an old craven who has lost his beautiful castle and a massive portion of his wealth. Bear in mind that the girl may not know or care to find out that he may still have a decent amount of gold left. She may think he is pretty much dead broke now, which on top of everything else wrong with the man, is a huge turn off for a young girl. 

Also, the girl has to bear in mind that all her children would be Butterwells with the taint of treason on them. 

Now, we have her showing an interest in Dunk, however small you think that interest is, I believe she is physically attracted to the man. 

Add to that, she may have heard stories of Ashford and how a massive giant like Hedge Knight fought in a trial of Seven to save his hands and feet getting cut off after he physically beat up a member of the Royal blood all to rescue a damsel in distress. He did it all for a girl. 

We cant really deny that the Novellas have a theme where Dunk is a hopeless sucker for the ladies, and that he is the embodiment of the good Knights who save people in need of help, such as damsels in distress. It's a theme GRRM has got going on with Dunk we can't really ignore.

So if the girl decided to make a run for it and catch up to Dunk and make such a compelling case to him and Egg, what's to stop them taking her on as a companion?. Dunk and Egg both heard Bloodraven say that he decided whether or not Ambrose could "keep his wife", so if the girl doesn't want to be "kept" and latched on to them I can't really see them feeling the need to race back with her to hand her back to a traitor. 

The reasons why this girl would foresake her life as a "noble lady" with an old craven traitor who has just lost his beautiful castle and (for all she knows) been left nearly penniless are quite numerous if you open your mind to it. Girls can crave adventure on the road with hulking strong men they are physically attracted to, that is certainly a possibility, especially if it's a more fun prospect compared to what she's currently got going on.

[Macgregor of the North]

On 17/03/2017 at 5:15 AM, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

Doesn't Old Nan agree with Bran about all crows being liars and offer to tell him a story to prove it? But he doesn't want to hear that kind of story...

Could be that a three eyed raven (who also would become a crow) lied about letting Ambrose keep his head. Or at least, let him hold onto his head after it was removed from his body once they were away from the public eye...

I think this is thought you mean that got overlooked, sorry about that. 

What's funny about that exchange between Bran and Nan is that we never hear him say to her that the Crow lied, its like she somehow just knew that's what he meant. Or perhaps he told her "off page" previously and she just knows what he means at that point. 

On what you speculate, yeah maybe, there is a chance she means Bloodraven, why not. You know what would have been brilliant, if the story she was about to tell Bran about a Crow was about Bloodraven and what she knew of him. It's a pity Bran never wanted to hear that story about the crow.