Lost Melnibonean Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 About four years ago, I was rereading The Mystery Knight, and noticed that Uthor Underleaf's lips glistened when he smiled. That made me think of Roose and Ramsey. All three have close set eyes. All three have the same nondescript but fleshy body type too. Uthor's lack of honor in the pursuit of gold reminded me of Roose's lack of honor in the pursuit of power. And Uthor's snail made me think of Roose's leeches. There was hippocras at the table where Dunk and Uthor were drinking during the feast before the joust, and that's Roose's preferred beverage. And get this: There are only two other Uthors in ASOIAF. One is not relevant, but the other is, or was, a maester in service to the Dreadfort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 That would be a very bad marriage for a member of House Bolton, even if Uthor was just the grandfather or such a bride. Uthor is wealthy for a tourney knight but that doesn't mean he plays even remotely in the league of the people where people like the Boltons look for brides. Not to mention that Uthor's career is no exactly to ever get him to as unprofitable a place for a tourney knight as the North. Uthor sharing certain character traits and tastes with Roose could be George's comment that these were similarly dangerous men. It does not have to be indicate genetic kinship. I could also see Uthor being an ancestor of Littlefinger's, but that would most likely mean that he would make a very bad match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 17, 2017 Author Share Posted March 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: That would be a very bad marriage for a member of House Bolton, even if Uthor was just the grandfather or such a bride. Uthor is wealthy for a tourney knight but that doesn't mean he plays even remotely in the league of the people where people like the Boltons look for brides. Not to mention that Uthor's career is no exactly to ever get him to as unprofitable a place for a tourney knight as the North. Uthor sharing certain character traits and tastes with Roose could be George's comment that these were similarly dangerous men. It does not have to be indicate genetic kinship. I could also see Uthor being an ancestor of Littlefinger's, but that would most likely mean that he would make a very bad match. Hey, if Eddard Stark can descend from Bael the Bard, Roose can descend from Uthor Underleaf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 12 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Hey, if Eddard Stark can descend from Bael the Bard, Roose can descend from Uthor Underleaf. Bael the Bard was a king of sorts. And we have no idea whether Ned truly descended from him. For all we know Bael's branch of House Stark may have died out, and a cadet branch took over. By the way, Roose coldness and lack of emotion isn't really a Bolton trait. George sort of sells us the idea that this comes from the whole leeching thing. If Roose wouldn't be doing that he might be much more passionate (and thus closer to Ramsay in following his nature). The Snail is just a guy who can fool not-so-smart-people reasonably well. I see him more as a person representing a certain type of knight, just as Bennis, the Laughing Storm, Steffon and Raymun Fossoway, and the hedge knights from TMK did represent other types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: About four years ago, I was rereading The Mystery Knight, and noticed that Uthor Underleaf's lips glistened when he smiled. That made me think of Roose and Ramsey. All three have close set eyes. All three have the same nondescript but fleshy body type too. Uthor's lack of honor in the pursuit of gold reminded me of Roose's lack of honor in the pursuit of power. And Uthor's snail made me think of Roose's leeches. There was hippocras at the table where Dunk and Uthor were drinking during the feast before the joust, and that's Roose's preferred beverage. And get this: There are only two other Uthors in ASOIAF. One is not relevant, but the other is, or was, a maester in service to the Dreadfort. I spent a long time a while back trying to match Uthor to modern characters. I remember the name connection to with the Boltons, but didn't think much else added up. I guess the mild manner... The snail-leech connection and the hippocras connection I completely missed. Anyway, I came up with this (from my mega-tinfoil essay part 1 https://asongoficeandtootles.wordpress.com/2016/03/13/mega-tinfoil-essay-part-1-the-elder-brother-of-the-quiet-isle/) Distant relation refers to the Martells. BONUS SHIT-FOIL: I wonder whether we meet a distant relation in The Mystery Knight: [Uthor Underleaf] was a sallow man, saturnine, clad in grey and green. His eyes were small and shrewd, set close together beneath thin arching brows. A neat black beard framed his mouth, to make up for his receding hair…. Uthor describes himself as a “round-shouldered old man”, which gels with Quentyn and Doran’s “slumped” shoulders. “Saturnine” identifies him with Oberyn; “sallow” (i.e. unhealhty complexion) with Elia and Doran. He drinks wine while he counts his winnings and consults with Dunk. He and the Elder Brother/Lewyn both have “shrewd” eyes. His overall scheming seems an apt fit for a proto-Martell. A widow’s peak [like Oberyn's] suggests receding hair; the two often go hand in hand. The relevant Oberyn quote: Quote His face was lined and saturnine, with thin arched brows above large eyes as black and shiny as pools of coal oil. Only a few streaks of silver marred the lustrous black hair that receded from his brow in a widow’s peak as sharply pointed as his nose. (SOS Tyr V) Some of the points make more sense in the context (i.e. after I've hammered that all the Martells, known and secret, are wine drinkers [or dry drunks, in the case of Marwyn].) Anyway, good catches on the hippocras and the slugs. Huh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 1 hour ago, M_Tootles said: I spent a long time a while back trying to match Uthor to modern characters. I remember the name connection to with the Boltons, but didn't think much else added up. I guess the mild manner... The snail-leech connection and the hippocras connection I completely missed. Anyway, I came up with this (from my mega-tinfoil essay part 1 https://asongoficeandtootles.wordpress.com/2016/03/13/mega-tinfoil-essay-part-1-the-elder-brother-of-the-quiet-isle/) Distant relation refers to the Martells. BONUS SHIT-FOIL: I wonder whether we meet a distant relation in The Mystery Knight: [Uthor Underleaf] was a sallow man, saturnine, clad in grey and green. His eyes were small and shrewd, set close together beneath thin arching brows. A neat black beard framed his mouth, to make up for his receding hair…. Uthor describes himself as a “round-shouldered old man”, which gels with Quentyn and Doran’s “slumped” shoulders. “Saturnine” identifies him with Oberyn; “sallow” (i.e. unhealhty complexion) with Elia and Doran. He drinks wine while he counts his winnings and consults with Dunk. He and the Elder Brother/Lewyn both have “shrewd” eyes. His overall scheming seems an apt fit for a proto-Martell. A widow’s peak [like Oberyn's] suggests receding hair; the two often go hand in hand. The relevant Oberyn quote: Some of the points make more sense in the context (i.e. after I've hammered that all the Martells, known and secret, are wine drinkers [or dry drunks, in the case of Marwyn].) Anyway, good catches on the hippocras and the slugs. Huh. Maybe another connection... Quote "For the moment. I had another, once. Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first." Reek III, Dance 32 Uthor was an ass-kicking jouster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereticent Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: ....There are only two other Uthors in ASOIAF. One is not relevant... How dare you suppose that Uthor of the High Tower--ahem, Uthor O'High--::KOF:: Azor Ahai is irrelevant! Joking, of course, but I will say that mToots's suspicion of UU's familial relation to Oberyn made me think that perhaps "Uthor" is an homage to our Hightower hero in honor of the Citadel that Oberyn (and maybe his ancestors) so cherished. Tooty may have a point. I personally prefer your Bolton connection. No reason both can't be true. Likely we'll never know, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 7 hours ago, thereticent said: How dare you suppose that Uthor of the High Tower--ahem, Uthor O'High--::KOF:: Azor Ahai is irrelevant! Joking, of course, but I will say that mToots's suspicion of UU's familial relation to Oberyn made me think that perhaps "Uthor" is an homage to our Hightower hero in honor of the Citadel that Oberyn (and maybe his ancestors) so cherished. Tooty may have a point. I personally prefer your Bolton connection. No reason both can't be true. Likely we'll never know, right? Right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 On 3/17/2017 at 5:17 PM, Lord Varys said: Uthor sharing certain character traits and tastes with Roose could be George's comment that these were similarly dangerous men. It does not have to be indicate genetic kinship. I could also see Uthor being an ancestor of Littlefinger's, but that would most likely mean that he would make a very bad match. I get a very strong Littlefinger vibe from both the appearance and behavior of Uthor Underleaf. Uthor's sigil is grey and green; Petyr's eyes are grey and green. Wiki: Uthor had small, shrewd, close-set eyes with thin, arching eyebrows. He kept his black beard neat and had a receding hairline. Petyr has sharp features, a small pointed beard on his chin, and dark hair with threads of grey running through it. Uthor's attempt to recruit Dunk into his elaborate tourney scam and his use of bribes to manipulate officials and opponents seems like stuff Littlefinger would do. He is also more interested in wealth than in renown but what he really wants a dragon egg. There may be something to Uthor's anger that his squire accepted "traitor's gold," a Blackfyre gold dragon as payment for a debt. At the end of the story, Egg persuades Brynden Rivers to pay Dunk's debt to Uthor so, in a way, Uthor ultimately does obtain a Targaryen "dragon" (if the debt is paid in gold). Symbolic of both obtaining a "dragon" and of becoming a master of coin. 18 hours ago, thereticent said: No reason both can't be true. Likely we'll never know, right? I haven't examined the Hightowers in detail, but I would love to see a Martell-Littlefinger connection. Maybe Littlefinger is the secret friend of the Martells at the court. We are told that Baelish's grandfather had been a sellsword from Braavos. What if Uthor took his wealth over to Braavos when people started to get suspicious of his tournament record? Or maybe he aged out of the tournament business and found employment with House Corbray, inventing the Braavos story. If he married someone with a Martell connection (Rogare?) that could be the link. I don't think the leeches and snail are a very close match. The snail carries its house and/or its armor on its back, which would be a good symbol for a knight who travels from tourney to tourney. (I think the lobster and crab shell references in the books may refer to armor, for what that's worth.) There is also a reference to the trail of slime that a snail leaves behind. Leeches suck blood and, aside from living in water and being squishy if you step on them, don't seem much like snails at all. There has been discussion in the forum of worms, leeches and dragons as related symbols - based on medieval references to dragons as wyrms, I think. But who knows? Uthor is an interesting character. I'm glad there is a thread about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereticent Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 While we have a thread going... I had a vague memory of a character saying something about finding...something under every rock and leaf. Turns out it was this: Quote "She was the only one he loved." "He must have found that bastard under a cabbage leaf, then," Gendry said behind them. Arya wished she had another crabapple to bounce off his face. "My father had honor," she said angrily. "And we weren't talking to you anyway. Why don't you go back to Stoney Sept and ring that girl's stupid bells?" -ASOS Arya VIII At the time, Arya was speaking with Ned Dayne, who told her that Ned had loved Ashara. Snails are a threat to cabbage leaves. I'm not going anywhere with this, but I do think it's interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 @Seams Uthor certainly is (somewhat) as shrewd a character as Littlefinger but on other levels he is hopelessly naive. He doesn't realize in what company he is in Whitewalls, after all, suggesting that he is actually a rather small man. Still, if it turned out that Uthor comes from the Fingers or ends up in service to Lord Corbray it might be that he is one of Littlefinger's ancestors. But since we have as yet no indication of that it must remain conjecture. By the way, I'm reasonably positive that Littlefinger's great-grandfather - the Braavosi sellsword who entered the service of Lord Corbray - is going to show up eventually in a Dunk & Egg story. Perhaps Dunk & Egg will eventually tour the Vale in a story, spending some time at Heart's Home. If not, then the Third Blackfyre Rebellion could feature some Corbray men. Since Alys Arryn is the wife of Prince Rhaegel we can be reasonably positive that the Vale will stand staunchly at Aerys I's side during that war. Later on could even Littlefinger's grandfather show up - the hedge knight who took the Titan of Braavos as his sigil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted June 22, 2017 Author Share Posted June 22, 2017 I was out and about the other day, and I kid you not, I heard a father call his little boy Ramsay. I felt very sorry for the boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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