Royce as first family to be named meaningless or foreshadowing?

[Prof. Cecily]

17 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I really wouldn't hold anything at all in anything the show has done. As they have zero respect for the source material. 

Do you think you could translate the heraldry from the Wiki here? 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Royce

Of course the runes of the artwork may just be gobbeldy gook but still have significance in book.

 

6 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

MREEENBYON S? ILZ (but upside down) ST S? S?GGFN

theS'sare question marked as they are orientated differently to the very quick rune search I made.  And the Z is upside down. several of the runes on the shield seem to be from different sources. So unless my very quick google is totally off it seems the artwork is just some random runes. I wouldn't place any faith in it being truly representative of the runes in world or having significance. I suspect whoever put together the show version was just having a laugh. 

Very good points-the artist's conception may be very different to the original intention of GRRM and the runes yet are important to the plot.

added: I took the post I quoted earlier and used the online rune translator (set to elder futhark) for a phonetic spelling of the motto "Run before your blood runs" 

At the end of the day, you people have been discussing this and many other aspects of this tremendous saga for years. I joined here recently and don't presume to  re-invent the wheel. Just learn and have a good time.

And yes, I do love runes.

[GloubieBoulga]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

ETA:  Did you see @Pain killer Jane's wonderful catch regarding Tyrion -- the greenseer-figure  in your example -- having to stand on the back of a fool in order to cloak Sansa?  That's analogous to Bran riding on Hodor's back and then later more perfidiously 'mounting' him (note the sexual language used for skinchanging/greenseeing) by taking up residence in the virtual basket, nest, or birdcage inside Hodor's body and mind, tantamount to rape, really.  Also, I'm reminded that on Tyrion and Sansa's wedding night, he tells her that in the dark she won't be able to tell the difference between him and the 'Knight of Flowers', which is along the same lines -- and also an echo of his tricksy ancestor Lann impregnating the women without their knowledge (and then the Mockingbird with his telltale 'grey-green' eyes standing on Dontos's back figuratively, in order to get into Sansa's head and knickers)!  I'm sure there are many further examples we could find.

 

Good catch ! I had read this post but I had forgot it. And after my post, I have remembered another troubling episode about a possible "skinchanging", which concerns Daenerys : 

Quote

That night her cooks roasted her a kid with dates and carrots, but Dany could only eat a bite of it. The prospect of wrestling with Meereen once more left her feeling weary. Sleep came hard, even when Daario came back, so drunk that he could hardly stand. Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice. She sat up with her hair disheveled and the bedclothes atangle. Her captain slept beside her, yet she was alone. She wanted to shake him, wake him, make him hold her, fuck her, help her forget, but she knew that if she did, he would only smile and yawn and say, "It was just a dream, my queen. Go back to sleep."(Daenerys VII, ADWD)

One of the french forumers suggested once that it was Euron (the blue lips) penetrating Daenerys' dreams with glasscandle. But perhaps it goes farther than that. 

 

Coming back to the Royce, I suspect a story "à la Lancel Lannister"/"a la Hugh of the Vale"/"a la Jaime" : a lover of the queen who kills/helps to kill the king and whom children are officially the king's children and heirs. Royce's silence would be pay with a runic armour (I don't no if there is a wordplay here, but each time I read "armour", I read the french "amour" who significate "love" and that the english kept in the word "paramour")

 

By the way, GRRM is like a musician who composes some motives/themes and declines them on many variations and combinations. The game for the reader is to find the original theme ^^ 

[The Fattest Leech]

31 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Well, I've come back to find lots of very intriguing ideas being discussed. I'm going to employ the get shitfaced on vodka cos it's Friday and see what my brain does overnight tactic. Hopefully tomorrow I have some ideas. 

I await those drunken lullabies 

[LmL]

14 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

By the way, GRRM is like a musician who composes some motives/themes and declines them on many variations and combinations. The game for the reader is to find the original theme ^^ 

Could not have said it better myself... that's fantastic. It's a fractal story, but there are original templates, archetypes, and actions. @Kingmonkey was always someone who really has a great grasp on this. 

I'll be sure to go back and read your OP, I've been off working and writing for a bit. 

[Isobel Harper]

On 3/24/2017 at 5:13 AM, Leo of House Cartel said:

Any chance the people of Thenn may have some connection to the runes? Magnar Styr weilded a weirwood spear topped with an ornate bronze head, and even more peculiarly wore a suit bronze scaled armour.  Let's not forget, the Magnars of Thenn are considered to be closer to gods than men by their people, which for some reason makes me think of the runes of Royce. If we think of Thenn as "Then", the place and people signify the past - Thenns use bronze weaponry, bronze armour and keep the Old Tongue. These practices draw to mind the four main gimmicks of House Royce - The words "We Remember", bronze armour, First Men Runes and the lost Valyrian sword "Lamentation" - all traits which brings the "past" to mind. If we put these together, the people of Thenn and Runestone each have several parallels drawing upon images of a time gone by.

Consider the location of Thenn, nestled deep in a valley in The Frostfangs, the home of The Magnar and his people lies geographically closest to The Land of Always Winter. 

 

Thenn probably stems from the Norse "þenngill" which means lord or king.  Just my two cents.

ETA: I used to think that the etymology of Royce had something to do with "king."  (Roy means king; it stems from the French roi.)  But it's actually a medieval variant of "rose." https://surnames.behindthename.com/name/royce

[Seams]

On 3/24/2017 at 0:16 PM, Leo of House Cartel said:

I'm on board with your proposals, especially the various Kings trying to assimilate the magical bloodlines into one. ...

Could the Nine Kings represented by The Winter Crown perhaps be: Winter, Red, Marsh, Storm, Bronze, Barrow, Blackwood, Gardener and Hightower?

I'm reading up on each of your suggested members of the nine magic kings. So far, I definitely agree with Winter, Red, Marsh, Bronze, Barrow and Blackwood. The World book even refers to "runic records" backing up the Blackwood claim to have ruled most of the wolfswood. Any reference to runes probably confirms that they were part of the magic group.

But it might be difficult to narrow down the list to nine Houses, I'm finding. For instance, the description of House Royce refers to this rivalry with House Shett:

These ancient [Royce] kings, also known as the Bronze Kings of Runestone waged many wars against fellow First Men kings, such as House Shett, who were vaingloriously titled King of the True Men. King Yorwyck VI had claimed the Runic Crown when his sire died in battle and proved to be a most redoubtable foe, defeating the Shetts and driving them back inside their town walls of Gulltown. (TWOIAF, The Vale)

Did the Royces have the power and the royal bloodline, or did they take it from the Shetts? Maybe it doesn't matter how the Royces came by their magic/runes, only that they had some unique royal power that was coveted by other kings.

The Storm, Gardener and Hightower kings may very well round out the group. I was thinking that we would probably find one or two of the clans in the area that is now Beyond the Wall, however, or maybe Skagos (the Crowl family "passes for nobility" there) or the Iron Islands. Maybe the Thenns from the Frostfangs. Or maybe there is a royal line that comes down through the female line, and has come to be known through the corpse queen of the Night's King (although she has a rumored Barrow King association). That thousand-year war between Winterfell and the Eyrie over possession of the Three Sisters also makes me suspect there was some magic there, but maybe it wasn't the royal, blood magic that could explain the nine spikes on the crown.

We might gain some insight from examining the members of the Ninepenny Kings. That's the other clear use of the number nine in a royal context. They were a mix of pirates and other outlaw types, as I recall, which might be a good match for the ancient, battling, bloodthirsty kings I have in mind.

Of course, it's really all just speculation unless we get a chance to buy GRRM a beer at some point and get him talking about the ancient history.

[Kingmonkey]

On 24/03/2017 at 5:06 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

MREEENBYON S? ILZ (but upside down) ST S? S?GGFN

theS'sare question marked as they are orientated differently to the very quick rune search I made.  And the Z is upside down. several of the runes on the shield seem to be from different sources. So unless my very quick google is totally off it seems the artwork is just some random runes. I wouldn't place any faith in it being truly representative of the runes in world or having significance. I suspect whoever put together the show version was just having a laugh. 

There were many different variant runic alphabets. This one seems to use characters all present in the Cotton Domitian A.ix late (11th Century) Anglo-Saxon 33-character alphabet. So the artist probably used a single source, but I suspect still just picked random letters. I get:

(clockwise from top left corner) 

M R Ng E N B Y A N Kw I L K St Eo S Dj g Oe N

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Yes seems to have just been random choice. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I wonder about the various magics a lot, As I said I did a thread back when the world book came out about it.  I don't think the magics are only accessible by certain bloodlines. but rather that there is an ability in certain people to perform magic and that various families and sects etc specialised in various magics. 

I think GRRM actually told us this right back in Game, with the introduction of MMD. Who is of the Lamb people but who has trained with many different peoples and learnt skills both magical and practical. Travelling far and wide to do so. She demonstrates that she can heal with herblore, and I believe the poultice was genuine. The names of the plants chosen for it imply that she was actually trying to heal the wound. Firepod sounds like something that would raise the temperature of the skin. And so I think it likely is akin to a mustard plaster. Which raises the skins temperature and dilates blood vessels in the area. Causing pain relief and it is believed draws toxins out. Also raising the body temperature helps the immune system to fight off some infections, hence why we get fevers.  So it could have been being used to both relieve pain from the wound and prevent infection from setting in. Sting-me-not sounds like it might be akin to stinging nettles which can be used as a poultice to stop bleeding.  But MMD demonstrates more than just herblore, she has travelled to Asshai and learnt shadowbinding And I think she shows us some shadow binding in the tent later on when shadows of wolf and a man wreathed in flame. She knows the birthing songs of the moonsingers. The Moonsingers can prophesize and we know that this ability is strongly associated with magic in series. So I think their birthing songs may have a magical aspect also. And we know she studied under Marwyn. Who himself has also learnt a lot of different magics again including shadowbinding and he can light the glass candles. MMD uses the fear powder mentioned by Melisandre and she says that there is much healing power in flame. Hinting she can do the same magic as Moqorro uses on Victarion. She is one of the few people in story who have raised a person from the dead, despite his vegetative state Drogo was indeed alive. And I believe she used the fire kiss to do it, she calls for a brazier prior to driving everyone from the tent and I think the stallion and only death can pay for life was all smoke & mirrors. She demonstrates lots of different skills and magics and I think that implies that it can all be learnt by those who have the ability. 

Again Marwyn shows you don't have to be from certain bloodlines to do magic and it certainly does not come from some god. 

Mellisandre again knows more than the R'hhlorists standard bag of tricks. And again she went to Asshai and learnt shadowbinding, we know shadowbinders are a specific sect as we meet Quaith. Who again can do magic. And Maggy the frog is not Targaryen yet she performs a form of blood magic on Cersei by reading her future through ingesting her blood. 

Alys Rivers shows us that you do not have to be a red priest to read flames, because she reads fires and stormclouds and puddles on the ground. She is simply a bastard girl from the riverlands, though I suspect a Blackwood one. And this I think is a tell that Blackwoods are a magical family, we have Bloodraven also who weaves magics. He uses the same glamour magic as Mellisandre utilising a Moonstone rather than a ruby.  And whilst all the Stark kids are wargs, we meet Skinchangers as well. But then it turns out that skinchanging and warging are not seperate, but just that people differentiate the ability to skinchange a wolf as warging. Bran of course skinchanges Hodor as well as Summer & the ravens and Arya skinchanges the cat in Braavos on two occasions, she even has a cat dream.  We hear of a family that skinchange seals, and then we have the Mormonts who many think are bear skinchangers. but I suspect that just like our Starks these families could slip the skin of any animal if they learnt to do so. And in the world book we hear a lot of surprising bits of magic being used. historically by all manor of peoples. 

So these 9 families may not be separate bloodlines who can only do one specific thing, but rather people with the right blood who think they can only do a specific thing. Which makes the thought of so much warring over it seem a bit ironic. 

Because as we see, some characters manage to do a lot more than the magic traditionally associated with their blood line. 

So Royce's have harnessed some runic magic which in some way protects the wearer but not from steel swords. So I think the runes pertain to the Others as others have suggested. And that it will come into play later on. maybe ancient Royce's could cast spells with runes. We have not come across any other examples in book of people using written spellcraft. But it most certainly is in our own world a traditional magic form.  

[Aegon VII]

Great topic. I have always viewed the fact that Mance is introduced first in the first chapter of the book as a sign that he is very important. Based on my logic, it does seem that Royce should have some significance being mentioned first in the prologue. 

[Seams]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I wonder about the various magics a lot, As I said I did a thread back when the world book came out about it.  I don't think the magics are only accessible by certain bloodlines. but rather that there is an ability in certain people to perform magic and that various families and sects etc specialised in various magics. 

...

So these 9 families may not be separate bloodlines who can only do one specific thing, but rather people with the right blood who think they can only do a specific thing. Which makes the thought of so much warring over it seem a bit ironic. 

Because as we see, some characters manage to do a lot more than the magic traditionally associated with their blood line. 

So Royce's have harnessed some runic magic which in some way protects the wearer but not from steel swords. So I think the runes pertain to the Others as others have suggested. And that it will come into play later on. maybe ancient Royce's could cast spells with runes. We have not come across any other examples in book of people using written spellcraft. But it most certainly is in our own world a traditional magic form.  

This fits with what I am seeing, too. I am enjoying a close reading of ACoK for the direwolf re-read, and just finished the Jon V and Catelyn VI chapters.

The Jon chapter is when Qhorin Halfhand meets Jon and immediately talks about knowing Rickard and Eddard Stark, the old gods of the Starks, that the Starks are the only ones who can defend against the threat beyond the Wall, Jon's direwolf, and the need to fight wildling wargs. He then picks Jon to be part of his elite ranging party. The emphasis seems to be entirely on the Stark magic and heritage and unique relationship with the old gods.

Then the Catelyn chapter contradicts all of Qhorin's apparent beliefs in unique bloodlines by discussing the widely-varied responses by fathers and non-fathers (Ser Cortney Penrose with Edric Storm) to bastards; family characteristics that are very much dependent on one's point of view, such as "all Lannisters are liars"; and the truth that hair color of King Robert's bastards would convince those who are predisposed to oppose Joffrey and be downplayed by those who want to support Joffrey.

I think GRRM is trying to show us that some of the things that have been built up in the "it is known" category will end up being exposed as baseless assumptions. The "dragon seed" dragon riders were a major hint about this, I suspect. The in-world explanation for these small folk who stepped up to become dragon riders was that they must be Targaryen bastard descendants with the circular proof being that they could ride dragons. But there were known Targ descendants who could not ride dragons, so doubt should have been sown from that.

Similarly, Ser Waymar's death may have been a major clue about this. On the first reading of that prologue, we see that the Night's Watch men thought he was a pompous ass. So the reader adopts the same perspective on him; we shake our heads at his apparent ignorance as he walks into the site of the attack and into the midst of the Others. But my most recent re-read leads me to think that he knew what he was doing; there are some lines that show he has some smarts about reading signs along the trail, and that his order not to build a fire was deliberate (maybe because he wanted to encounter the Others). He may have known some things about the Others, thought that his Royce blood protected him, and he walked into the situation willingly. Like Qhorin, he thought there was something magical about the blood of the First Men. So GRRM may have been showing us that the magic is NOT in the blood, contrary to popular beliefs. Ser Waymar would only have been protected if he had been wearing the magical runes.

I think the Royce / Bolton connection is correct. Maybe the Red and Bronze kings represent only one of the nine swords in the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter, or maybe the swords represent nine types of magic, with "skin appropriation" being a single category. In other words, we are probably being given a clue that the special Royce rune-covered armor originated with another family but, like the cloaks the Boltons made from flayed Starks, was taken and used by the Royces.

If GRRM advised the artist about the message in the Royce runes, per @Prof. Cecily's discovery of the reddit post "Run before your blood runs," that seems entirely consistent with the theme he seems to be building around writing as a defense or as an alternative to bloodshed. The Royce defense is in their runes and, to paraphrase this coded phrase, in avoiding fighting altogether. The Puns & Wordplay thread considered a runes / ruins pun, but I wonder now whether there is a triple pun on runes / ruins and RUNS. Qhorin Halfhand's first words to Jon are, "It is said that a direwolf runs with you.” Maybe that is GRRM hinting to the reader that the magic in the direwolf is not in the blood but in the running / runes - the words that people use to tell stories, write books and spread magic.

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

very interesting Seams. 

I've just been and re read my OP from my magic thread and I can see that at that time I had categorised the magics as

Earth:

• Jojen swallows mud and gets a fever which leaves him with green dreams. 
• Trees are of course connected to the earth, they grow out of it and take their nourishment from it.and the weirwoods of course enable the greenseers to see, Bran has to physically be in connection to a tree to see through its eyes and he has to consume the sap or its seed. BR is physically entwined with the tree. 
• it is said some crannog men can breathe mud

Air:

• Alys Rivers in the princes and the queen sees visions in Storm clouds. 
• in the world book we are told it was said the children of the forest could call upon the air to fight on their behalf
• Aeromancers, whatever these are. A form of magic practised still in Asshai. Certainly sounds like Air magic.

Fire: 

• Healing, MMD tells Dany there is great healing power in Fire magic, though she doesn't demonstrate it to Dany, she seems to imply she knows how to do it. 
• Moqorro does heal Victarion's arm using Fire magic and he sings in an undulating voice whilst doing it
• Daenerys survives the Pyre, and some theories say she does this because MMD is casting a protection spell, a spell to protect from the effects of fire, She is singing in a high undulating voice. Much like Moqorro healing Vics arm. 
• MMD casts a powder into the fire which sends people running in fear from the tent. the powder is seemingly activated by the fire, Mel later tells us in her POV chapter that red priests use such powders. 
• Of course, the Red Priests use flames to see visions. 
• Alys Rivers again uses cook fires to see much and more according to Aemond Targaryen 
• Thoros brings Beric back to life with a special prayer (or spell) and breaths a flame into him, which rouses him to life
• Beric (not a red priest) simply breathes this flame into the lifeless body of Catelyn Stark, she rises and he dies, implying it is the fire itself doing the work, not the act of the priest (ie not through a god) or the words of the spell/prayer, though sure enough the prayer or spell could be necessary to create this very special flame?
• Dragons certainly seem to be magical and are undoubtedly connected to fire, they are described as fire made flesh in fact.
• Mel burns the eagle out of the sky.
• in Asshai there are Pyromancers listed, separately to Red Priests.
• wildfire

Water:

• the hammer of the waters, the children of the forest apparently called up the sea itself in order to smash the arm of Dorne and halt the passage of the first men. 
• the neck, again they children called upon the water element to sever the north, it did not fully work. 
• the crannog men, apparently have the ability to run in water.
• the Rhoynish we learn in the world book could magically manipulate the waters of the Rhoyne to fight the Valyrians. They seemingly had great powerful water magic. 
• the crannog men have a castle/castles which float about and disappear on the waters of the neck
• the great silver sea which existed where there is now the great grass sea was home to the fisher Queens whose palace floated continually about the shoreline of the huge lake. 
• Alys again see's stuff in puddles, so that adds water to her list

Blood & Shadow magic:

• There are Bloodmaeges in Asshai, and MMD tells Dany that what she is going to use to raise Drogo she learnt from a bloodmaege. She cuts the horse with an ancient looking glyph covered beaten copper blade and scares everyone out with the fire activated powder, she kills the stallion, but we know Rhaego dies as well, we do not know for certain if he dies directly due to the acts of MMD. ( I have since become more and more convinced that killing the stallion is just for show and in fact "Only death can pay for life is utter bollocks.)
• obviously, as I mentioned Bloodmaeges exist, they seem to be expert in blood magic.
• Valyrians seem to have used a combination of fire magic and blood magic, the Targaryens used this as their house words once they passed from a Valyian family to being a Westerosi house.
• The Dragon Binding horn seems to be a combo of fire and blood magic as it kills by burning the blowers inside/lungs out and one assumes the death/blood is what binds the Dragon to the owner. We are still unclear as to if and how this horn actually works. !!This is actually another example of Runic/Glyph magic such as we see in the Royce's armour.!!! as well as being fire and blood-related. I think that only a Fire Wight can blow the horn. Fire for blood-Mel speaks of the fire inside her and we see with Beric that there is an actual flame he passes to cat.
• The blood magic MMD performs to raise Drogo seems to use shadows too, so I have combined these two magic's, maybe she was using two forms of magic to raise him, maybe the shadows where a separate spell, one to murder Rhaego in his mothers womb (have grown to believe the shadows area separate magic, performed to awe and add to the sense of boding and fear she is conjuring, and that MMD didn't kill Rhaego, but that he, in fact, died because he was a "dragon baby" we see several such births in the stories and none of them live beyond their births. One manages an hour. But it seems pretty clear these Targ Dragon Babies can't survive outside the womb. perhaps. Maybe MMD conjured the shadows via the sperm of the Dothraki who raped her? or are they really the dead as she seems to tell Dany, either way it seems the raising of Drogo may involve both fire & blood and shadow. Or as I now suspect just fire magic (just the fire kiss in fact, but she isn't that great at it and she loses his consciousness.) and she's utilising her other skills to make her look even more impressive and dangerous. We are told of the powder(proof she's bluffing imo), the braziers burn too, though of course they do, but the way it is noted makes me think they serve a purpose in the spell, and it's not just that there are fires in the tent to warm it. MMD sings in an Ululating voice. Quite a lot of the magics in world seem to involve singing. and shadows are seen dancing in the tent. some do not seem human, so obviously some do, one is a great wolf (obviously brings the Starks to mind, though I'm not sure there is a connection) and a burning man, no sigil is a burning man as far as I know. The shadows dance around the bloody tent and we are told several times that there is fire during this chapter, which all contributes to a sense of rising mania, fire, singing which sounds inhuman, shadows dancing blood everywhere and fighting outside, Dany's labour pains are described in violent language and she dreads being taken into the tent and seems to know instinctively that the spell is killing her baby. (Again, I don't think the spell did kill him anymore, but certainly dany in this instance thinks there is truly danger in her entering the tent against MMD's instructions.)
• Shadow babies, it seems that Melisandre who travelled to Asshai and learnt shadow binding there. When Stannis is going to fight Renly she has sex with him, and using his sperm draws his life force from him and gestates a shadow, which she births and which assassinates Renly for them, She repeats this magic to kill Cortney Penrose at Storms end. 
• Shadow binders are a group of magic practitioners in Ashai,  Quaithe is a Shadow Binder, she wears the red lacquered mask which distinguishes her as one, MMD and Melisandre are not shadow Binders but both have learnt and can utilise their learning in order to use the magics of shadow. Quithe also seems to use the glass candles which were of Valyrian origin, as can archmaester Marwyn. Who we know taught MMD and has been to Asshai himself. & who also says he has learnt shadowbinding.
• Glass candles, no one knows what makes these work, but I have included them here as they are a Valyrian artefact, maybe the candles use blood magic to work, or shadow magic perhaps? 
• Maybe shadow magic is related to blood magic? it seems the shadows Melisandre births are created using Stannis's life force through his semen, when Dany has her house of the undying vision she see's a king with no shadow, which we widely interpret as being stannis after Mel has taken his life force to create the assassins, she tells Jon he would give her great strong powerful ingredients with which to make magic, (sorry I was avoiding using any language which made it sound like she thinks Jon has super spunk.lol) Maybe shadow magic isn't to do with blood magic maybe it is to do with the black stone? Maybe the black stone is a separate kind of magic altogether, maybe the black stone is the moon which shattered releasing the Dragons into the world?

 

Skinchanging/Wargs:

• We first meet the Starks, who once they receive the Direwolf pups begin to form a bond with them each child seems to influence their pup to be like themselves and each wolf we know becomes part of the warg too, as GRRM has said in SSM's. We meet the starks and find this animal is their house sigil, and that the kings and lords in their crypt are depicted with a direwolf at his feet. Were Starks historically wargs? have they always had the abillity, with the direwolf itself being needed to awaken the ability? could Starks have connected to other animals too, were Lyanna and Brandon really half a horse themselves? A couple of Centaurs? were they warging their horses? 
• we quickly find out the Starks are not alone in their abillity we meet Orrel a Wildling who skinchanges an eagle
• Varamyr six skins who has various different animals, and through whom we learn a warg goes into his familliar after death
• Hagon who we do not meet but who taught Varymyr the rules of skinchanging and lived on in his old one eyed wolf
• Borraq, with his great boar
• we also learn from the Wildlings that Skinchangers are more frequent north of the wall, where the first men blood is strong, or is it just where magic is still strong? is the wall really made of that black stone? and just coated in ice? 
• Children of the forest were said to be able to call beasts to fight for them, and this hints that they were indeed skinchangers
• and in Asshai, again, we hear of shapechangers?
• Bran of course begins using Ravens once he meets BR, and can slip hodor, whom he knows well and has a good bond with
• Bloodraven obviously wargs Raven's and being as he is a Blackwood descendent from Raven tree hall, it seems probable or possible at least that Blackwood blood leans towards Ravens as their natural familiar, but likewise Bloodraven seems to have used many animals to slip over his years.
• Arya of course slips a cat, whom she has been around a lot, which I think shows a bond is needed in order to inhabit an animal the first time. 
• Sansa seems to be headed towards slipping a bird, and may have already at the Eyrie when she "see's" Marliion in the sky cell. 

So, I'm now suspecting that people who can Skinchange can basically slip any animals, but that various families have aligned themselves with different animals.

And I'll add my newer Bolton Skin reading magic into the Blood magic section I think. As it is necessary to spill blood to use it, and if it is a thing, and is basically the same as the FM's face wearing then I'd say given the info we get via Arya on that that it is blood magic.

Another thing worthy of note is the Magic of Woodswitches; another thing I keep meaning to start a thread on. Again I think they're/were just using various magic forms. The one which strikes me is Nimble Dick telling Brienne that the wife of his folk here (have forgotten his name) would kiss the decapitated heads of her husband's foes and place the now re-animated heads in a cave at the Whispers-giving it its name. Again I suspect this is the same kiss Thoros uses on Beric but without the religious claims.   

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I also think on reflection that I ought to have given the categories Blood & shadow their own listings. As I think really they are separate now that I have thought on it more.  I also think the Black Oily stone may in itself be an element of magic. As I said above I think it may be bits of the second moon? 

[Seams]

This is terrific, @The Weirwoods Eyes. It helps to lay out the categories in order to create a framework. My guess is that you are right in identifying certain rituals as a combination of powers; a lot of the magic will be a hybrid, drawing on two or more of the original categories.

For instance, I think smiths and singers are magical. Smiths use fire and melted metal to create weapons, some of which are more magical than others. But the weapons they create are sometimes described in terms of shadows. So their "magic" will be a hybrid of fire and shadow - and possibly blood, if theories are correct about the nature of Valyrian steel. This makes sense, as shadows are cast when a source of light is blocked by something 3-D - I think there may even be a passage where Melisandre says that light creates shadows. (This may raise an interesting question about Lightbringer and/or Dawn - if a sword IS a source of light, will it have a shadow?)

If singers are magical, what is their goal? My guess is that they make truths - the people and events in their songs become immortal, but only in the sense that the singers choose to portray. We already see Robb Stark being turned into a magical, legendary wolf beast through the songs that are written about him, not at all following the things we have seen and heard about him in POVs.

You don't describe a category for words, but I suspect that singers use words and music together to create magic. Runes would also be in this category. I bet that scene where Sam Tarly stays up all night reading in the Castle Black library would tell us a little more about the nature of magic words - the mouse seems to survive by eating words (pages of books), for instance.

But I think that skinchanging may also turn out to be a subset of blood magic. Aside from the possible rivalry between the Stark wargs and the Bolton flaying tradition (and possibly the Royce armor), there is the whole Faceless Men aspect and a lot of references to people wearing hides and skins and leather and gloves that may represent symbolic skinchanging. The Kindly Man explains that several things are at work when a Faceless Man changes his appearance with the use of a dead person's face. And we know that Melisandre uses a jewel to control Mance and apparently combines it with the shirt of bones to create his disguise. Would that be an earth (jewel), skinchange / blood combination? Could she create a glamor without fire?

To complicate things further, there may be a difference in two types of water magic: rivers / freshwater and salt water. Tullys vs. Greyjoys. Maybe the Manderly family will bridge the gap because they started out on a river and moved to a harbor. Maybe hot springs will turn out to be a separate water category, too. (And then the Martells have their water gardens, where they learn as children how to pair up and fight. Might not be magical, but it might be part of the symbolism that helps to explain the water magic.)

Maybe I'm watering down the definition of magic, though. If we start examining every song and water source, there would be no beginning and no end to the possible sources of magic.

[ravenous reader]

4 minutes ago, Seams said:

light creates shadows. (This may raise an interesting question about Lightbringer and/or Dawn - if a sword IS a source of light, will it have a shadow?)

I don't think it would have a shadow per se, although it would still be able to cast shadows. That's what happens during a solar eclipse.  The sun (a source of light, analogous to the sword) casts a shadow on the earth when the moon intervenes between the sun and the earth.  The moon's shadow is created by the sun, as is its light.

11 minutes ago, Seams said:

You don't describe a category for words, but I suspect that singers use words and music together to create magic. Runes would also be in this category. I bet that scene where Sam Tarly stays up all night reading in the Castle Black library would tell us a little more about the nature of magic words - the mouse seems to survive by eating words (pages of books), for instance.

There ought to be a category for words -- at the very top of the list (even before fire).  In fact, I've found your word/sword pun essential to conceptualizing GRRM's poetic vision.

The relationship between the mouse and the book is quite fraught with complexity -- remember the book is almost used as a weapon to kill the poor thing, before Sam relents!

Words nourish; words kill.

So engrossed is he in 'leafing' through his 'folios' (note the connection to 'leaves' and 'foliage' and therefore weirwood trees), Sam forgets to eat other food (he's like Bran subsisting on weirwood bole).  He's a bookworm or mouse himself.  All of them unlikely victors, but each in his own way a  'slayer' nonetheless.

There's a reason Martin inserts himself into the prologue via the marten coat.  The trio of rangers and the wight one of them becomes are all writers.  Wielders of words.

[Prof. Cecily]

On 3/26/2017 at 5:25 PM, Seams said:

...If GRRM advised the artist about the message in the Royce runes, per @Prof. Cecily's discovery of the reddit post "Run before your blood runs," that seems entirely consistent with the theme he seems to be building around writing as a defense or as an alternative to bloodshed. The Royce defense is in their runes and, to paraphrase this coded phrase, in avoiding fighting altogether. The Puns & Wordplay thread considered a runes / ruins pun, but I wonder now whether there is a triple pun on runes / ruins and RUNS. Qhorin Halfhand's first words to Jon are, "It is said that a direwolf runs with you.” Maybe that is GRRM hinting to the reader that the magic in the direwolf is not in the blood but in the running / runes - the words that people use to tell stories, write books and spread magic.

 

 

If my searchings have served to inspire your posts,I am well content. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

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On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 1:24 PM, Seams said:

I'm reading up on each of your suggested members of the nine magic kings. So far, I definitely agree with Winter, Red, Marsh, Bronze, Barrow and Blackwood. The World book even refers to "runic records" backing up the Blackwood claim to have ruled most of the wolfswood. Any reference to runes probably confirms that they were part of the magic group.

But it might be difficult to narrow down the list to nine Houses, I'm finding. For instance, the description of House Royce refers to this rivalry with House Shett:

These ancient [Royce] kings, also known as the Bronze Kings of Runestone waged many wars against fellow First Men kings, such as House Shett, who were vaingloriously titled King of the True Men. King Yorwyck VI had claimed the Runic Crown when his sire died in battle and proved to be a most redoubtable foe, defeating the Shetts and driving them back inside their town walls of Gulltown. (TWOIAF, The Vale)

Did the Royces have the power and the royal bloodline, or did they take it from the Shetts? Maybe it doesn't matter how the Royces came by their magic/runes, only that they had some unique royal power that was coveted by other kings.

The Storm, Gardener and Hightower kings may very well round out the group. I was thinking that we would probably find one or two of the clans in the area that is now Beyond the Wall, however, or maybe Skagos (the Crowl family "passes for nobility" there) or the Iron Islands. Maybe the Thenns from the Frostfangs. Or maybe there is a royal line that comes down through the female line, and has come to be known through the corpse queen of the Night's King (although she has a rumored Barrow King association). That thousand-year war between Winterfell and the Eyrie over possession of the Three Sisters also makes me suspect there was some magic there, but maybe it wasn't the royal, blood magic that could explain the nine spikes on the crown.

We might gain some insight from examining the members of the Ninepenny Kings. That's the other clear use of the number nine in a royal context. They were a mix of pirates and other outlaw types, as I recall, which might be a good match for the ancient, battling, bloodthirsty kings I have in mind.

Of course, it's really all just speculation unless we get a chance to buy GRRM a beer at some point and get him talking about the ancient history.

The King in the buried in the Barrowlands is Garth the Green, so Barrow King = Gardener King.  I would think House Tarth and Dayne would be excellent contenders in addition to your list.  The thing we have to be very careful with when looking at that crown and assigning houses to each spike is the fact that the Red Kings may not have been fighting on the same side as House Stark during the Long Night, so whatever the Starks were doing during the Long Night, they were also fighting the Red Kings 

The enmity between the Starks and Boltons went back to the Long Night itself, it is claimed. The wars between these two ancient families were legion, and not all ended in victory for House Stark. King Royce Bolton, Second of His Name, is said to have taken and burned Winterfell itself; his namesake and descendant Royce IV (remembered by history as Royce Redarm, for his habit of plunging his arm into the bellies of captive foes to pull out their entrails with his bare hand) did the same three centuries later. Other Red Kings were reputed to wear cloaks made from the skins of Stark princes they had captured and flayed.

I think the Stark crown is reminiscent of the "runic crown" of the Bronze Kings.  We see in the story, each crown is pretty unique and provides it's own symbolism.  The crown may actually be a combination of more than one crown kind of like the crowns of upper and lower Egypt combining.  It is obvious there was iron during the long Night as there are stories about the Others hating iron, but it is also pretty certain the First Men were still predominately bronze users, or maybe had not iron at all as we see with House Thenn.  I believe the Stark Crown is reminiscent of taking the crowns of two different peoples and bringing the two together which is why we see a bronze runic crown with iron spikes.  I have been seeing the number nine for quite a white now, and what I can tell you, is it is symbolizing something primordial and hints at the Harpy, the Gods Eye and Ironborn among other things

[Seams]

57 minutes ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

The King in the buried in the Barrowlands is Garth the Green, so Barrow King = Gardener King.  I would think House Tarth and Dayne would be excellent contenders in addition to your list.  The thing we have to be very careful with when looking at that crown and assigning houses to each spike is the fact that the Red Kings may not have been fighting on the same side as House Stark during the Long Night, so whatever the Starks were doing during the Long Night, they were also fighting the Red Kings 

The enmity between the Starks and Boltons went back to the Long Night itself, it is claimed. The wars between these two ancient families were legion, and not all ended in victory for House Stark. King Royce Bolton, Second of His Name, is said to have taken and burned Winterfell itself; his namesake and descendant Royce IV (remembered by history as Royce Redarm, for his habit of plunging his arm into the bellies of captive foes to pull out their entrails with his bare hand) did the same three centuries later. Other Red Kings were reputed to wear cloaks made from the skins of Stark princes they had captured and flayed.

I think the Stark crown is reminiscent of the "runic crown" of the Bronze Kings.  We see in the story, each crown is pretty unique and provides it's own symbolism.  The crown may actually be a combination of more than one crown kind of like the crowns of upper and lower Egypt combining.  It is obvious there was iron during the long Night as there are stories about the Others hating iron, but it is also pretty certain the First Men were still predominately bronze users, or maybe had not iron at all as we see with House Thenn.  I believe the Stark Crown is reminiscent of taking the crowns of two different peoples and bringing the two together which is why we see a bronze runic crown with iron spikes.  I have been seeing the number nine for quite a white now, and what I can tell you, is it is symbolizing something primordial and hints at the Harpy, the Gods Eye and Ironborn among other things

I didn't realize Garth the Green was in the Barrowlands. With the corpse queen of the Night's King also rumored to be connected to the Barrow Kings, that seems to be the focus of some interesting magic.

It does seem as if there are too many potential magic kings to fit the nine spikes on the crown.

Would you start a thread about the number nine? Or maybe for "One through Twelve"? I have been trying to look for nines because of the crown and because this passage with Theon and Asha caught my eye:

“I liked you better when you were Esgred,” he told her accusingly. She laughed. “That's fair. I liked you better when you were nine.”

Maybe there are groups of elements for each number similar to the "primordial" group you are seeing for the number nine.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

 

50 minutes ago, Seams said:

I didn't realize Garth the Green was in the Barrowlands. With the corpse queen of the Night's King also rumored to be connected to the Barrow Kings, that seems to be the focus of some interesting magic.

It does seem as if there are too many potential magic kings to fit the nine spikes on the crown.

Would you start a thread about the number nine? Or maybe for "One through Twelve"? I have been trying to look for nines because of the crown and because this passage with Theon and Asha caught my eye:

“I liked you better when you were Esgred,” he told her accusingly. She laughed. “That's fair. I liked you better when you were nine.”

Maybe there are groups of elements for each number similar to the "primordial" group you are seeing for the number nine.

I will give you a tag on the Garth OP.  I have something that would need to be overhauled, but the sad thing about numbers it that it is a very ambitious task and difficult to pinpoint the concepts.  I know the number nine and the number three are significant when it comes to the Long Night plot arch.  The crown, the weirwood circle, the steps hewn into Nagga's hill it is all very something and the crown does seem to be the most iconic purveyor of this concept, yet other passages are harder to piece together into something that is not grasping or forced.   

[Seams]

10 minutes ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

I will give you a tag on the Garth OP.  I have something that would need to be overhauled, but the sad thing about numbers it that it is a very ambitious task and difficult to pinpoint the concepts.  I know the number nine and the number three are significant when it comes to the Long Night plot arch.  The crown, the weirwood circle, the steps hewn into Nagga's hill it is all very something and the crown does seem to be the most iconic purveyor of this concept, yet other passages are harder to piece together into something that is not grasping or forced.   

Maybe we could narrow things down on the numbers if we set it up for discussion. But I respect your process, if you prefer to get your thoughts worked out before everyone dives in. It seems like something fresh and it might lead to some new insights from the forum.