Heresy 197 the wit and wisdom of Old Nan

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

But why doesn't Dany realize or say that she was looking at Rhaegar twice, despite seeing the two visions only moments apart, and apparently seeing his face in both?

Because they are not the same face.  Dany doesn't know what Rhaegar looks like and in Martin's world there is no portraiture (other than the missing Targaryen tapestries). She has only ever seen Viserys.  As readers we know that the second vision of the dying prince with rubies spilling off his chest is Rhaegar.  We have an eye witness account from Eldar Brother. But I'm not sure that Dany has ever heard that account of the battle.  She does know hat Rhaegar named his son Aegon.  She doesn't know about Rhaegar's silver harp until Jorah tells her that he had one.  

In the first vision, Dany is making an assumption about his identity because of the harp and the baby's name.  We do get information about his eye and hair color.   The only person with dark indigo eyes in this story so far is fAegon as confirmed by Tyrion.  Because Dany makes the assumption that it is Rhaegar; the wiki also cites Rhaegar with dark indigo eyes and points to Dany's vision. 

I think fAegon is legit and the PWiP is meant to heal the realm in the aftermath of the wars to come.  That's not Rhaegar but his son and grandson.

 

[JNR]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Because they are not the same face.

Odds seem pretty fair of that, don't they?   It seems like either

1) They aren't the same face, or

2) The dying prince was wearing a helm, yet could be heard by Dany murmuring a woman's name in the middle of a pitched battle (which basically means: GRRM screwed up)

If GRRM screwed up, there's nothing much to figure out.  So let's suppose he did not.

If you look at the online art of this scene, Rhaegar is virtually always wearing a helm.  And of course we would expect him to be wearing a helm, fighting a monster warrior Robert, to protect his head -- surely! 

But we aren't told anything about Robert in this vision.  Or anything else about the setting or circumstances, so perhaps it's not what it seems.  All we're told is that this is a prince and he's taken a death blow such that rubies are flying from his chest and he murmurs a woman's name as he dies.

So perhaps this is a future vision (some of them are, we're told, after all).  Can we think of any ostensible prince who, in the future of the story, might have black armor created, with rubies forming the Targ sigil on the breastplate, as a PR move to make it easier for people to accept that he's a true Targ, and cash in on Rhaegar's powerful brand?  I can think of someone.

And if he's that guy, he's definitely not fighting Robert... he might not have been wearing a helm... his face might have been easily visible to Dany... and looking at it, she would have known immediately it wasn't the same as the face of the man with the silver-stringed harp.   And then what she says (and doesn't say) makes sense.

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

Odds seem pretty fair of that, don't they?   It seems like either

1) They aren't the same face, or

2) The dying prince was wearing a helm, yet could be heard by Dany murmuring a woman's name in the middle of a pitched battle (which basically means: GRRM screwed up)

If GRRM screwed up, there's nothing much to figure out.  So let's suppose he did not.

If you look at the online art of this scene, Rhaegar is virtually always wearing a helm.  And of course we would expect him to be wearing a helm, fighting a monster warrior Robert, to protect his head -- surely! 

But we aren't told anything about Robert in this vision.  Or anything else about the setting or circumstances, so perhaps it's not what it seems.  All we're told is that this is a prince and he's taken a death blow such that rubies are flying from his chest and he murmurs a woman's name as he dies.

So perhaps this is a future vision (some of them are, we're told, after all).  Can we think of any ostensible prince who, in the future of the story, might have black armor created, with rubies forming the Targ sigil on the breastplate, as a PR move to make it easier for people to accept that he's a true Targ, and cash in on Rhaegar's powerful brand?  I can think of someone.

And if he's that guy, he's definitely not fighting Robert... he might not have been wearing a helm... his face might have been easily visible to Dany... and looking at it, she would have known immediately it wasn't the same as the face of the man with the silver-stringed harp.   And then what she says (and doesn't say) makes sense.

Yes, that makes sense as well.    I don't recall if fAegon has already been outfitted with a breastplate with rubies.  We'll have to wait and see.  So far, the only character showing up in the book with indigo colored eyes is fAegon.  If the vision is of fAegon and Sansa; it's fitting that she would wish her son to grow up as brave as a direwolf (Bran) and as proud as a lion (Jon).

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

Odds seem pretty fair of that, don't they?   It seems like either

1) They aren't the same face, or

2) The dying prince was wearing a helm, yet could be heard by Dany murmuring a woman's name in the middle of a pitched battle (which basically means: GRRM screwed up)

If GRRM screwed up, there's nothing much to figure out.  So let's suppose he did not.

If you look at the online art of this scene, Rhaegar is virtually always wearing a helm.  And of course we would expect him to be wearing a helm, fighting a monster warrior Robert, to protect his head -- surely! 

But we aren't told anything about Robert in this vision.  Or anything else about the setting or circumstances, so perhaps it's not what it seems.  All we're told is that this is a prince and he's taken a death blow such that rubies are flying from his chest and he murmurs a woman's name as he dies.

So perhaps this is a future vision (some of them are, we're told, after all).  Can we think of any ostensible prince who, in the future of the story, might have black armor created, with rubies forming the Targ sigil on the breastplate, as a PR move to make it easier for people to accept that he's a true Targ, and cash in on Rhaegar's powerful brand?  I can think of someone.

And if he's that guy, he's definitely not fighting Robert... he might not have been wearing a helm... his face might have been easily visible to Dany... and looking at it, she would have known immediately it wasn't the same as the face of the man with the silver-stringed harp.   And then what she says (and doesn't say) makes sense.

 

But then we're talking about visions [and perhaps who may have sent them] ad like dreams and prophecies these are rarely if ever literal

[JNR]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

So far, the only character showing up in the book with indigo colored eyes is fAegon.

Can you remind me when his eyes are called indigo?  I don't recall.

According to Connington, Rhaegar's eyes are supposed to be quite a dark purple:

Quote

"Your father's lands are beautiful," he said. His silvery hair was blowing in the wind, and his eyes were a deep purple, darker than this boy's.

Indigo is a deep purple.

Between this, the fact that the man has just had a son named Aegon, the references to that son being the PtwP (whom we know Rhaegar thought was Aegon), and the silver harp, I'm satisfied Dany saw Rhaegar in the baby vision.

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

like dreams and prophecies these are rarely if ever literal

Some of the visions do appear metaphorical, such as the blue rose growing from the chink in the ice wall... but this one?  Not so much.

Any way you slice it, whether it's a metaphor or not, the concept is that having perceived this vision, Dany knows the dying prince murmured a woman's name. 

How did that knowledge get into her head?

I can't really see how if we're talking about Rhaegar dying at the Trident, surrounded by fighting on all sides, and Rhaeegar wearing a helm to defend his head, and Rhaegar speaking softly (murmuring).

If he wasn't wearing a helm, she might conceivably have read his lips... but now we're picturing a Rhaegar so foolish, he didn't protect his head against one of the deadliest warriors in the realm, who wanted above all to kill him.  Seems improbable.

But GRRM is not infallible and perhaps he just didn't realize this when he wrote the chapter.  Or perhaps Rhaegar was originally wearing a helm but somehow it got knocked off prior to his death (though this brings us back to the problem that Dany should have commented that she saw Rhaegar twice).

If Aegon acquires a Rhaegarlike suit of armor in the next book, as a promotional gambit to pitch himself as the true heir to the Iron Throne, I am going to be amused.

[Brad Stark]

I don't understand how this could be anything other than a mistake by GRRM.  If you clearly heard what was said, you'd know the name of the woman.  If you didn't,  he could have murmured the name of his horse.

[PrettyPig]

14 hours ago, JNR said:

1) They aren't the same face, or

2) The dying prince was wearing a helm, yet could be heard by Dany murmuring a woman's name in the middle of a pitched battle

 

14 hours ago, JNR said:

and looking at it, she would have known immediately it wasn't the same as the face of the man with the silver-stringed harp. 

I'll also point out here that in addition to not recognizing the face in the vision, Dany didn't recognize the name either.   A bit odd, considering that she grew up with Viserys spitting all kinds of poison in her ear about the Usurper and his dogs, and the northern slut that was taken by Rhaegar at swordpoint, etc.   I find it hard to believe she wouldn't know the names of all the Rebellion players - yet, she hears this murmured 'woman's name' and it doesn't resonate at all.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Indigo is a deep purple.

I believe that Indigo is dark-blue purple, the color of Aegon's eyes.

Quote

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

Another use of indigo:

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Through the indigo murk, she could make out the wizened features of the Undying One to her right, an old old man, wrinkled and hairless. His flesh was a ripe violet-blue, his lips and nails bluer still, so dark they were almost black. Even the whites of his eyes were blue. They stared unseeing at the ancient woman on the opposite side of the table, whose gown of pale silk had rotted on her body. One withered breast was left bare in the Qartheen manner, to show a pointed blue nipple hard as leather.

 

Tyrion's description of young Griff:
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV

The bacon turned crisp, the biscuits golden brown. Young Griff stumbled up onto deck yawning. "Good morrow, all." The lad was shorter than Duck, but his lanky build suggested that he had not yet come into his full growth. This beardless boy could have any maiden in the Seven Kingdoms, blue hair or no. Those eyes of his would melt them. Like his sire, Young Griff had blue eyes, but where the father's eyes were pale, the son's were dark. By lamplight they turned black, and in the light of dusk they seemed purple. His eyelashes were as long as any woman's.

 

Indigo by definition is deep blue but with a range into the violet spectrum.  I suppose Rhaegar could have indigo eyes.  I'm undecided.

 

[Matthew.]

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 

But then we're talking about visions [and perhaps who may have sent them] ad like dreams and prophecies these are rarely if ever literal

This is how I feel about that vision as well, with the whole "woman's name on his lips" part specifically--Dany does not/cannot identify what word she has "heard," she simply understands (through dream logic, or whatever) that a woman's name has been said. The vision might be less metaphorical than some of the others, but I still think it's meant to have that dreamlike quality, rather than literally represent Rhaegar's death as it happened.

More cynically, we might say that that passage (and most others in that chapter, for that matter) are written with the reader as the target audience, which is why that passage might come off as a bit inelegant, or have questionable logic--whether a man who has just had his chest caved in by a hammer could speak dying words, or whether he could be heard through a helmet (if he's wearing one), and other such details were secondary to what GRRM intended to convey, and he was probably just taking it on faith that most people would view these scenes through the dream/vision context.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

This is how I feel about that vision as well, with the whole "woman's name on his lips" part specifically--Dany does not/cannot identify what word she has "heard," she simply understands (through dream logic, or whatever) that a woman's name has been said. The vision might be less metaphorical than some of the others, but I still think it's meant to have that dreamlike quality, rather than literally represent Rhaegar's death as it happened.

More cynically, we might say that that passage (and most others in that chapter, for that matter) are written with the reader as the target audience, which is why that passage might come off as a bit inelegant, or have questionable logic--whether a man who has just had his chest caved in by a hammer could speak dying words, or whether he could be heard through a helmet (if he's wearing one), and other such details were secondary to what GRRM intended to convey, and he was probably just taking it on faith that most people would view these scenes through the dream/vision context.

This is why I interjected that comment "and perhaps who may have sent them"; Dany is not watching it happen in real time. I don't think it infeasible that she is being manipulated by Quaithe or whoever else might come to her in dreams, and being told that Rhaegar died for love.

The whole thing sounds like one of those ballads Trouserless Bob complained about. 

[JNR]

5 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't understand how this could be anything other than a mistake by GRRM.  If you clearly heard what was said, you'd know the name of the woman.  If you didn't,  he could have murmured the name of his horse.

You'd think.  And you're echoed:

5 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

I'll also point out here that in addition to not recognizing the face in the vision, Dany didn't recognize the name either.

A good point made by these two fine contributors.  Now, Matthew's reading provides a possible answer:

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

she simply understands (through dream logic, or whatever) that a woman's name has been said

If I follow, Dany does not know the name, did not hear the name... but only understands abstractly, through dream logic (though this isn't a dream!) that it was a name.   And more specifically, a woman's name.

So basically, Dany's sense of sight was in play to see the prince, and the rubies fly off his chest as he's dying... but her sense of hearing was not in play, re the murmuring.

OK.  Weird things happen in dreams (though this isn't a dream).  But the problem is, she still shows no sign of thinking that guy is Rhaegar.  And yet as PrettyPig reminds us,

5 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

she grew up with Viserys spitting all kinds of poison in her ear about the Usurper and his dogs, and the northern slut that was taken by Rhaegar at swordpoint

More specifically, from the previous book AGOT:

Quote

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved.

Quote

She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.

Quote

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor.

So I am confident that Dany absolutely, positively should have had no doubt in her head about who this man is:

Quote

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name

But despite this, she shows no sign of recognizing him.  And she does not say "I saw Rhaegar twice," does not even mention the dying prince vision to Jorah, but instead, only says she saw Rhaegar in the baby vision.

[PrettyPig]

If we're going to dive into abstract metaphorical dream logic, I'll put forward that this:

Quote

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince

is actually the part that should be viewed through such a lens.  In the vein of "A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky", this is the hallucinatory part of the vision, and is in fact an allegory for the actual scenario, which is someone taking a mortal would to the chest.  (The vision being mostly symbolic shouldn't be a surprise, as this entire passage qualifies:  great stone beasts taking wing, blue flowers in a wall of ice, etc...should all of this be taken literally?  of course not.)   

GRRM has linked blood with rubies on multiple occasions, and in my opinion this scene is one of those occasions - one which should be viewed in the reverse (e.g. blood flying like rubies).    George, however, is a tricksy bird -  and as he has given us a historical scenario of an actual prince with actual rubies on his breastplate dying in a river, so of course the reader mind automatically goes there.

However, when you factor in Dany's lack of recognition of either face or name (while still managing to mostly identify her dead brother, her dead son, and her dead father), it seems clear to me that the man in the vision is NOT Rhaegar....and in fact, given the lack of mention of any clear and defining features such as silver hair, is probably not even a TARGARYEN.

 

When thinking about this scene and what purpose it may have had in Dany's vision if the person portrayed was not a family member, I look to GRRM's clever use of mimicry in parallel scenarios in the current world...and oddly enough, this vision has one.

Quote

She had seen men practice at their swordplay near every day of her life, had viewed half a hundred tourneys in her time, but this was something different and deadlier: a dance where the smallest misstep meant death. And as she watched, the memory of another duel in another time came back to Catelyn Stark, as vivid as if it had been yesterday.
They met in the lower bailey of Riverrun. When Brandon saw that Petyr wore only helm and breastplate and mail, he took off most of his armor. Petyr had begged her for a favor he might wear, but she had turned him away. Her lord father promised her to Brandon Stark, and so it was to him that she gave her token, a pale blue handscarf she had embroidered with the leaping trout of Riverrun. As she pressed it into his hand, she pleaded with him. "He is only a foolish boy, but I have loved him like a brother. It would grieve me to see him die." And her betrothed looked at her with the cool grey eyes of a Stark and promised to spare the boy who loved her.
That fight was over almost as soon as it began. Brandon was a man grown, and he drove Littlefinger all the way across the bailey and down the water stair, raining steel on him with every step, until the boy was staggering and bleeding from a dozen wounds. "Yield!" he called, more than once, but Petyr would only shake his head and fight on, grimly. When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr's rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. He looked at her as he fell and murmured "Cat" as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers. She thought she had forgotten that.

The implied recurring theme through the novels is men forsaking duty and honor for the sake of love, or for revenge against love lost, with disastrous consequences for the realm.   When I read the above passage and put it in context of Dany's vision, I can't help but think that George is trying to tell us something about responsibility for the Rebellion...and more importantly, that we have a case of mistaken 'target'.

[JNR]

Where's the Like button in this place?

OK, offhand, we have accounted for

1. The water

2. The deadly blow to the chest

3. The rubies -- this time, actual drops of blood, if this is what Dany saw

4. The falling to the knees in the water

5. The murmuring of a woman's name

6. The reason Dany didn't show any sign of recognizing him -- she's never seen Littlefinger

7. The reason the murmur could be heard -- it's not the Trident, ergo no competing noise

There are some issues, too: Littlefinger is not really a prince, he isn't actually dying or taking his last breath, and the vision specifies rubies flying like blood, rather than blood flying like rubies. 

But one could argue that after years of hearing the tale of Rhaegar's death at the Trident, from Viserys, Dany is psychologically primed to interpret a scene such as this as featuring a dying prince, and the blood as rubies.  Exactly as we are primed, by the narrative, to read about it and instantly think it obviously must be Rhaegar (but we can't see the man, unlike Dany).

It seems a reasonable leap given her background, and she wouldn't have had a great deal of time to interpret this scene either -- mere seconds, it sounds like, not minutes, before she jumps to the next vision.  So overall, a pretty impressive fit IMO.

[Ninerings]

On 5/6/2017 at 11:08 PM, JNR said:

 

Don't know how to just write in the thread without quoting.

Anyway,

Wasn't it also said how people forgot the battle and started going through the water to find the rubies? Doesn't sound allegorical to me at all.

 

 

[Matthew.]

PrettyPig's alternative interpretation is really great, probably the most convincing I've heard, and I wouldn't be surprised if GRRM goes in that direction.

Nonetheless, as JNR notes, Dany designates the figure she's viewing as a "dying prince." This is another odd specification (just like her hearing what she identifies as a "woman's name," without specifically identifying what name she heard), and I'm content to accept it as dream logic because, while what she's experiencing is not a dream in the most literal sense, we have some additional context of what it's like to use Shade of the Evening from The Forsaken chapter GRRM read last year--it's like psychedelics meet magic.

Furthermore, I'm inclined to look at the vision in the broader context of the surrounding visions:

 

Quote

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

It seems to me that these visions are being presented as sets of three, each related by a theme. In the "daughter of death" set, the first is obviously Viserys, and the tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair seems likely to represent the Rhaego that would have been. Given that the first two visions are of dead family members with personal significance to Dany, I don't believe it follows thematically for the third vision to be of the still living Littlefinger, and I'd be truly impressed if someone can come up with a character that fits that vision better than either Rhaegar or Littlefinger.

Edit: "Phantoms shivering through the murk, images in indigo" are also descriptors that suggest we shouldn't treat these visions, nor Dany's subjective experience, as overly literal or overly lucid.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Ninerings said:

Don't know how to just write in the thread without quoting.

Anyway,

Wasn't it also said how people forgot the battle and started going through the water to find the rubies? Doesn't sound allegorical to me at all.

 

 

Oh there's no doubt that he had rubies on his breastplate and they got knocked off, what's really at issue here is that Dany's vision is not a newsreel or video recording showing exactly what happened

[Black Crow]

50 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

PrettyPig's alternative interpretation is really great, probably the most convincing I've heard, and I wouldn't be surprised if GRRM goes in that direction.

Nonetheless, as JNR notes, Dany designates the figure she's viewing as a "dying prince." This is another odd specification (just like her hearing what she identifies as a "woman's name," without specifically identifying what name she heard), and I'm content to accept it as dream logic because, while what she's experiencing is not a dream in the most literal sense, we have some additional context of what it's like to use Shade of the Evening from The Forsaken chapter GRRM read last year--it's like psychedelics meet magic.

Furthermore, I'm inclined to look at the vision in the broader context of the surrounding visions:

 

It seems to me that these visions are being presented as sets of three, each related by a theme. In the "daughter of death" set, the first is obviously Viserys, and the tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair seems likely to represent the Rhaego that would have been. Given that the first two visions are of dead family members with personal significance to Dany, I don't believe it follows thematically for the third vision to be of the still living Littlefinger, and I'd be truly impressed if someone can come up with a character that fits that vision better than either Rhaegar or Littlefinger.

Edit: "Phantoms shivering through the murk, images in indigo" are also descriptors that suggest we shouldn't treat these visions, nor Dany's subjective experience, as overly literal or overly lucid.

I agree and would also suggest that these are not only to a degree allegorical but second-hand; some of them are stories retold as visions

[Prof. Cecily]

I've never known how seriously  to take those visions of Daenerys, induced by that potion proffered her.

Anyway, I have an extremely minor niggle.

On 5/7/2017 at 0:24 AM, LynnS said:

Because they are not the same face.  Dany doesn't know what Rhaegar looks like and in Martin's world there is no portraiture (other than the missing Targaryen tapestries). ...

In fact, we have two references to minature protraits in the saga:

 

Quote

Ned was not sure what to make of Renly, with all his friendly ways and easy smiles. A few days past, he had taken Ned aside to show him an exquisite rose gold locklet. Inside was a miniature painted in the vivid Myrish style, of a lovely young girl with doe's eyes and a cascade of soft brown hair. Renly had seemed anxious to know if the girl reminded him of anyone, and when Ned had no answer but a shrug, he had seemed disappointed. The maid was Loras Tyrell's sister Margaery, he'd confessed, but there were those who said she looked like Lyanna. "No," Ned had told him, bemused. Could it be that Lord Renly, who looked so like a young Robert, had conceived a passion for a girl he fancied to be a young Lyanna? That struck him as more than passing queer.

Game of Thrones, Eddard VI.

And

Quote

 

Spoiler

Inside, Pate had found a bag of silver stags, a lock of yellow hair tied up in a ribbon, a painted miniature of a woman who resembled Walgrave (even to her mustache), and a knight's gauntlet made of lobstered steel. The gauntlet had belonged to a prince, Walgrave claimed, though he could no longer seem to recall which one. When Pate shook it, the key fell out onto the floor.

 

A Feast for Crows, Prologue

 

I was struck by by these references in the saga, because they seemed to be anachronisms. But then, I'm struck by references to sequoias and squash, too. Yet another case of someone who accepts fire-breathing dragons without thinking twice about it and ponders over the presence of redwoods in Westeros.

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, JNR said:

So overall, a pretty impressive fit IMO.

Yes it is!  Much better, I like it.  Especially when the line preceding the murky visions is this:

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

 

"I don't . . ." Her voice was no more than a whisper, almost as faint as theirs. What was happening to her? "I don't understand," she said, more loudly. Why was it so hard to talk here? "Help me. Show me."

. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .

 

It's reminiscent of the pledge that Littlefinger makes to help Catelyn and Ned; the mocking manner of it, the truth within lies.

2 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

was struck by by these references in the saga, because they seemed to be anachronisms. But then, I'm struck by references to sequoias and squash, too. Yet another case of someone who accepts fire-breathing dragons without thinking twice about it and ponders over the presence of redwoods in Westeros.

Hah! Very good Professor!  I forgot about the miniatures. I'm very curious about the anachronisms as well.

[Prof. Cecily]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

...Hah! Very good Professor!  I forgot about the miniatures. I'm very curious about the anachronisms as well.

There are actually very very few.

So few, I can accept they are deliberately put there.

Again, with WW and TCOTF, who am I to quibble over how the Westerosi ate their salads?