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Lyanna Stark: A Gift from Old Gods

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In asoiaf, weirwood influences seem far less widespread than they are in some of GRRM's other tales (see A Song for Lya or And Seven Times Never Kill Man!). In this series, weirwood influences are far more subtle, and far more selective.

Rather than inhabit/control the conscious minds of every sentient being in proximity, in Westeros a weirwood might only indirectly influence the subconscious. Direct weirwood-influence comes, in asoiaf, only after one with the gift weds the trees. And "one with the gift" is astoundingly rare:

Quote

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer."

    - ADWD, Bran III


That provides us with some easy math.

    Skinchanger:Population
    1:1000

=  0.1% of men are skinchangers.

    Greenseer:Skinchanger-Population
    1:1000

=  0.1% of skinchangers are greenseers.

Thus, if we apply these proportions to how many men can be greenseers, we get:

    Greenseer:Population
    1:1,000,000

=  0.0001 % of men are greenseers.

That's one ten-thousandth of one percent of the population who are greenseers!

[side note: this ratio may mean that the population of Westeros is between 1 and 2 million people, as it currently yields between 1 and 2 greenseers]

So why did I do this math? In GRRM's other tales (listed above), such influence is far, far stronger. For example:

Spoiler

 

In ASTNKM, every clan has its "Talker" and every clan numbers 20-30, half of which are adults and half of which are children. Even if we include the children, that means 3.33% to 5% of Jaenshi are "Talkers".

In A Song for Lya, the influence is quite complete and absolute:

Quote

"The Greeshka takes everyone. And they go willingly. Like lemmings they march off to the caves to be eaten alive by those parasites. Every Shkeen is Joined at forty, and goes to Final Union before he's fifty."

If you've not read A Song for Lya, and do not understand the terms and phrases, I'll translate:

    Greeshka = Weirwood.

    Shkeen = cotf.

    Final Union = Bloodraven's current state of being.

 


That is a far more potent ratio of influence than we see in asoiaf.

Except for one glaring exception....

We have a GINORMOUS concentration of this influence in the current generation of youngsters from Winterfell. According to GRRM, 6/6 are wargs, although their "amount of control varies widely".

Still, a 6/6 concentration of warghood ain't bad.

Of the six, at least one is a bona fide greenseer. Considering the scarcity of the gift that Bloodraven described, that's pretty damned impressive.

Considering only two Starks in the previous generation were even said to have had "the wolf-blood," this certainly seems to suggest something occurred in the current generation to increase this concentration.

Enter the wolf pups.

It seems as though 100% of the Kings of Winter were also wargs, unless people were lying when sculpting all those dead Starks with direwolves at their feet. As it happens, I don't think those stonemasons were lying... at least, not until 200 years ago.

So, crackpot alert, I'm thinking Starks once had a far greater concentration of weirwood influence than other First Men families. I have a hunch that their Godswood was always and ever inhabited by a Stark Greenseer. And, I think that this is what the "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" mantra is all about.

To crack the pot further, I think Lyanna was the last Stark with the gift expressed in her blood, and, that it was incredibly strong. As in 1:1,000,000 kinda strong. (See A Song for Lya)

I don't think Lyanna lived long enough to take root beneath WF's godswood, but I do think she was able to send the kids those direwolf pups. (I believe the dead mother wolf in Bran I AGOT was hers... in spirit, if not in life.)

This is the reason she used her final breaths to get Ned's promise to bury her in Winterfell's crypts (which are under Winterfell's Godswood and Heart Tree). 

And, just to make sure this pot is thoroughly pounded back into clay, I believe it is Lyanna's consciousness that is beckoning Jon deeper and deeper into crypts in his dreams...

Not Ned. Not the weirnet. Not the Others. Not the cotf... It's his mom.

Lyanna sent her bastard the Ghost pup, because Jon is the Weirwood Ghost.

I have offered the alternative crackpot before that Lyanna is, like Bloodraven, residing in the roots of WF's heart tree... but I don't want to see her like that, and I don't think any of you want to either.

 

 

TL;DR:  So, I've whittled this theory down to the essentials:  

1. Lyanna's consciousness connected to Winterfell's heart tree as its roots reached her crypt, as it had always reached all Starks.

2. The mother direwolf in Bran I AGOT was Lyanna's, and she sent it to reactivate A Gift from the Old Gods. (Ghost is the proof.)

3. This reactivated the gift in its entirety for the entire current generation of youngsters who carry the blood of Winterfell. (One might even be able to make a case for Theon also being influenced by this gift, but I'll save that for another day.)

And, this explains why they exhibit A Gift from Old Gods so completely and absolutely, while, for the rest of Westeros, the gift emerges in but 0.1% to 0.001% of the population (in Essos, I would argue the ratio of the population bearing A Gift from the Old Gods is zero percent).

Thanks for reading! I look forward to the conversation!  :cheers:

 

Original Thread: http://thelasthearth.com/thread/1440/lyanna-stark-gift-old-gods

 

 

Edited by Voice
typos from a Dornish Keyboard

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35 minutes ago, Voice said:

~~~

  Reveal hidden contents

 

In ASTNKM, every clan has its "Talker" and every clan numbers 20-30, half of which are adults and half of which are children. Even if we include the children, that means 3.33% to 5% of Jaenshi are "Talkers".

In A Song for Lya, the influence is quite complete and absolute:

If you've not read A Song for Lya, and do not understand the terms and phrases, I'll translate:

    Greeshka = Weirwood.

    Shkeen = cotf.

    Final Union = Bloodraven's current state of being.

 

 

1. Lyanna's consciousness connected to Winterfell's heart tree as its roots reached her crypt, as it had always reached all Starks.

~~~

Original Thread: http://thelasthearth.com/thread/1440/lyanna-stark-gift-old-gods

I always thought this was Lyanna, the Knight of the Laughing Tree, watching over the wedding of Ramsay to fArya, and Lyanna once again laughing because she knows what a farce this event is:

A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

"I take this man," the bride said in a whisper.
All around them lights glimmered through the mists, a hundred candles pale as shrouded stars. Theon stepped back, and Ramsay and his bride joined hands and knelt before the heart tree, bowing their heads in token of submission. The weirwood's carved red eyes stared down at them, its great red mouth open as if to laugh. In the branches overhead a raven quorked.

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Now that I think about it, Lya did "come back" and talk to Rob in ASFL. So in keeping with one of George's own themes he uses for his own stories, this would fit if it was a "Lyanna tree" watching and laughing at the wedding.

 

(I have read that story and a few others. Good stuff!)

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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This always bugged me about the direwolves. The mother being Lyanna makes perfect sense. And now I feel pretty stupid not having noticed it sooner :P

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17 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I always thought this was Lyanna, the Knight of the Laughing Tree, watching over the wedding of Ramsay to fArya, and Lyanna once again laughing because she knows what a farce this event is:

A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

"I take this man," the bride said in a whisper.
All around them lights glimmered through the mists, a hundred candles pale as shrouded stars. Theon stepped back, and Ramsay and his bride joined hands and knelt before the heart tree, bowing their heads in token of submission. The weirwood's carved red eyes stared down at them, its great red mouth open as if to laugh. In the branches overhead a raven quorked.

 

Indeed, and it would be hard to get it up while mom is watching...

 

Quote

When the dreams took him, he found himself back home once more, splashing in the hot pools beneath a huge white weirwood that had his father's face. Ygritte was with him, laughing at him, shedding her skins till she was naked as her name day, trying to kiss him, but he couldn't, not with his father watching. He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night's Watch. I will not father a bastard, he told her. I will not. I will not. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," she whispered, her skin dissolving in the hot water, the flesh beneath sloughing off her bones until only skull and skeleton remained, and the pool bubbled thick and red.

 

"Father's face" = "Lyanna's face"

 

17 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Now that I think about it, Lya did "come back" and talk to Rob in ASFL. So in keeping with one of George's own themes he uses for his own stories, this would fit if it was a "Lyanna tree" watching and laughing at the wedding.

 

(I have read that story and a few others. Good stuff!)

 

Indeed. I also think it was Lyanna who looked up at Bran, knowingly:

 

Quote

He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above, the castle walls just lines in the dirt. He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book. He saw his brother Robb, taller and stronger than he remembered him, practicing swordplay in the yard with real steel in his hand. He saw Hodor, the simple giant from the stables, carrying an anvil to Mikken's forge, hefting it onto his shoulder as easily as another man might heft a bale of hay. At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

 

Bran's wolf-blooded aunt, cognizant of her winged-wolf nephew.

 

2 hours ago, TheSeer27 said:

This always bugged me about the direwolves. The mother being Lyanna makes perfect sense. And now I feel pretty stupid not having noticed it sooner :P

 

LOL! Yes. And I'm glad it clicks into place so obviously in hindsight, as well as for your good humor. :)

GRRM is quite good at hiding answers in plain sight. Rather than write complicated mysteries, he writes obfuscated answers.

 

1 hour ago, TheSeer27 said:

What about the stag that killed the Direwolf?

 

Did the Stag kill the direwolf, or did the direwolf kill the Stag while attempting to consume it?

All a matter of perspective.  :smoking:

In the books, there was only a foot of shattered antler. Antlers are nature's crowns. So what was it then? What killed the she-wolf? A symbolic Robert Baratheon, sixteen years removed? Or the crown? B)

In my opinion, the she-wolf was killed by the king's justice. This is the reason we are introduced to the wolf pups immediately after Ned's lecture on paid executioners vs the old ways of the First Men.

This has severe implications for our beloved Lyanna which I do not think will be very popular. LOL

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51 minutes ago, Voice said:

Did the Stag kill the direwolf, or did the direwolf kill the Stag while attempting to consume it?

All a matter of perspective.  :smoking:

In the books, there was only a foot of shattered antler. Antlers are nature's crowns. So what was it then? What killed the she-wolf? A symbolic Robert Baratheon, sixteen years removed? Or the crown? B)

In my opinion, the she-wolf was killed by the king's justice. This is the reason we are introduced to the wolf pups immediately after Ned's lecture on paid executioners vs the old ways of the First Men.

This has severe implications for our beloved Lyanna which I do not think will be very popular. LOL

Sigh...Voice, you're up to your usual coy self-congratulatory allusive-elusive style from which no-one can really benefit.  ;)  It's a pity, because you have a lot of wisdom to impart, so:  Please explicate!

Are you referring to @LynnS 's favorite 'Schmobert' for Jon's paternity theory?  For those unfamiliar with Lynn's 'Schmobert theory' (the lucky ones...just kidding Lynn :wub:), this is the theory that posits Robert raped Lyanna, whereafter Littlefinger blamed her disappearance on Rhaegar, hoping to get his rival Brandon Stark killed, to great success.

How do you envision her being killed by the King's Justice?  Where?  Why?  It would fit symbolically with the direwolf 'Lady' (who is also one of Lyanna's echoes) being unfairly condemned to death by Robert, who defers the killing to his executioner, before Ned intervenes and does the treacherous deed himself.

Also, where geographically do you think the 'promise me, Ned' scene occurred?

 

Edited by ravenous reader

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47 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Sigh...Voice, you're up to your usual coy self-congratulatory allusive-elusive style from which no-one can really benefit.  ;)  It's a pity, because you have a lot of wisdom to impart, so:  Please explicate!

LOL! While admittedly allusive, was it coyly self-congratulating? Truly not my intent!

I only meant that it leads down a very uncomfortable road –– one which, might cause some uproar around these parts. In my experience, some parts of the fandom are quite sensitive and defensive of preferred narratives. I have no wish to tread upon those sensitivities. I didn't want to stray too far from the main path, but I guess it isn't exactly off-topic, so I'll explicate. :cheers:

 

47 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Are you referring to @LynnS 's favorite 'Schmobert' for Jon's paternity theory?  For those unfamiliar with Lynn's 'Schmobert theory' (the lucky ones...just kidding Lynn :wub:), this is the theory that posits Robert raped Lyanna, whereafter Littlefinger blamed her disappearance on Rhaegar, hoping to get his rival Brandon Stark killed, to great success.

No, I wasn't referring to her 'Schmobert' theory, but I can see how the stag antler could be interpreted as a vorpal phallic symbol for a Robert+Lyanna argument. I've offered that interp to @wolfmaid7 for her essay on the subject as well. I think the Robert-angle has merit, if one considers the 1993 letter and the first 13 chapters of AGOT in a vacuum.

But beyond that vacuum, timelines and Lyanna's protestations/iron underneath make me doubt Robert as the vorpal blade that left Lyanna in her bed of blood.

 

47 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

How do you envision her being killed by the King's Justice?  Where?  Why?  It would fit symbolically with the direwolf 'Lady' (who is also one of Lyanna's echoes) being unfairly condemned to death by Robert, who defers the killing to his executioner, before Ned intervenes and does the treacherous deed himself.

See? The answer is right there, you need only reach out and take it. I'll elucidate:

 

"How do you envision her being killed by the King's Justice?"

To answer this, we must first ask ourselves the question of who was the King's Justice at the time/place of Lyanna's death.

Ned told us that Robert kept a headsman as the Targaryen kings did before him. So we know Aerys had a headsman, or at least that the precedent existed for the Mad King to keep an executioner under his employ. Rhaegar died before Aerys, and so, Rhaegar was never king. Thus the King's Justice would not have been Rhaegar's (although I've argued there is cause to believe Rhae did begin to act as king and usurp his father before his death).

In any case, we do not know who Aerys' headsman was, and Aerys was probably dead long before Lyanna gave up her hold on life.

Cersei told us that when Ned claimed the Iron Throne from Jaime, her brother-lover, that there was no middle ground. He could only win, or die. Ned attempted a place between, and was caught in that limbo for the next 14 years. Victory was e'er bitter in his mouth, because he was a dead man walking.

Eventually, the King's Justice found Lyanna's dearest Ned, but the quiet wolf's sentence was decided long before that:

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

This passage, for me, reads like an image from a thermal camera. Literary chiaroscuro would be an understatement. In it, I see the blue eyes of death coming for Ned in the year of the Red Comet ("blood-streaked sky"). And, I see them coming for Ned because he killed the Sword of the Morning.

The last time there was A Battle for Dawn, the Night's Watch caused the Others to retreat and the Long Night ended. It seems that when Ned battled for Dawn, a King of Winter defeating a Sword of the Morning, he undid that balance and paved the way for his house words to come true, for winter to come, and for the Others to return.

So, the King's Justice that ended Lyanna's tremulous hold on life might have been one of ancient origin. I speak, of course, of Brandon the Builder (good deeds praised in histories as the Last Hero...bad deeds obfuscated in histories as the Night's King).

But, Brandon the Builder was of course not there, and far away, beyond the curtain of star-wind and electromagnetism in the far north we call "the northern lights" . . . assuming he remains at all.

So, who was king when Lyanna died?

Well, unless Lyanna died prior to the sack of King's Landing, Robert was of course the king of the realm. The "King's Justice" was Robert's Justice.

. . . and that man was not Ser Ilyn Payne in the year of Lyanna's death.

Ilyn Payne was not appointed King's Justice until the year 285 AC. (source)

And, Ned likely sat by Lyanna's bed of blood 283-284 AC.

So, who was King Robert Baratheon's "Justice" in 283-284 AC, at the place and time of Lyanna's death?

Bran I:

His father peeled off his gloves and handed them to Jory Cassel, the captain of his household guard. He took hold of Ice with both hands and said, "In the name of Robert of the House Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, by the word of Eddard of the House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, I do sentence you to die." He lifted the greatsword high above his head.

Ned III:

They were all staring at him, but it was Sansa's look that cut. "She is of the north. She deserves better than a butcher."

He left the room with his eyes burning and his daughter's wails echoing in his ears, and found the direwolf pup where they chained her. Ned sat beside her for a while. "Lady," he said, tasting the name. He had never paid much attention to the names the children had picked, but looking at her now, he knew that Sansa had chosen well. She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur.

Shortly, Jory brought him Ice.

Ned IV:

He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

 

"Where do you envision her being killed by the King's Justice?" 

Starfall. The southron arc of our Winterfell ouroboros. The place where Dawn brings the rising son.

 

"Why do you envision her being killed by the King's Justice?"

In Ned's mind, I think Lyanna's death protected the honor of the north; something that is important to him. Regret for this clings to Ned like a woman's perfume.

But, I think Lyanna had to die for her power to take root. Like the wolf pups in their snowy bed of blood, it was meant for Jon to be born with the dead.

 

47 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Also, where geographically do you think the 'promise me, Ned' scene occurred?

Starfall.

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47 minutes ago, prcxfo said:

The pot is so cracked we will need a new one. Imo Lyanna Stark gets way too much attention.

I pity your wife. ;)

There are few things more worthwhile in this world than giving a woman your full attention.

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So what I got from the OP is that they are implying that GRRM is endlessly plagiarizing himself again and again (like Rob Liefeld but less bad) to the point where we can glean info on (supposed) hidden mysteries in ASoIaF from his various other works. 

And somehow this makes Lyanna a super-special-awesome Greenseer who hands out Direwolf puppies to Starks in need.

Serious mode: Yes, an author can have favourite tropes and themes, but skilled writers are capable of using those tropes in different ways that don't necessarily interconnect their works or make them mirror images of one another.

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That's actually quite brilliant, @Voice!  It's the best thing I've read re: the mysteries of ASOIAF all year.

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day.

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

But that tale is too well-known to warrant repeating here.

 

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Coming of the Rhoynar

The Martells ruled their modest domains for hundreds of years before Princess Nymeria and her ten thousand ships made landfall on the coast of Dorne, near to the place where the castle Sunspear and its shadow city now stand.

The story of how Nymeria took Mors Martell as her lord husband, burning her ships and binding her Rhoynar to his house, heart and hand and honor, has been told elsewhere. We need not tell it again here. Nor will we repeat the old familiar tales of battles won and lost, alliances made and broken.

It turns out GRRM is just as 'coyly self-congratulatory' as you, so you're in good company..!  :P

I've identified the catchphrase 'not worth telling' and/or 'not worthy repeating' as a flag for the reader that what we've been told about these three 'well-known' tales is a lie, and contrary to GRRM's coy protestations, each of these three stories is essential to understand in full.  They're also archetypal, therefore have been literally 'repeated' by GRRM himself throughout the narrative in various forms.

P.S.  So, who is Jon's father then?

29 minutes ago, Voice said:

There are few things more worthwhile in this world than giving a woman your full attention.

You're a romantic after all!  :)

Edited by ravenous reader

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1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

So what I got from the OP is that they are implying that GRRM is endlessly plagiarizing himself again and again (like Rob Liefeld but less bad) to the point where we can glean info on (supposed) hidden mysteries in ASoIaF from his various other works. 

And somehow this makes Lyanna a super-special-awesome Greenseer who hands out Direwolf puppies to Starks in need.

Serious mode: Yes, an author can have favourite tropes and themes, but skilled writers are capable of using those tropes in different ways that don't necessarily interconnect their works or make them mirror images of one another.

Spoken like someone who is not incredibly familiar with GRRM's writing outside of ASOIAF, yet has placed him in a very unique display case anyway.

 

54 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

That's actually quite brilliant, @Voice!  It's the best thing I've read re: the mysteries of ASOIAF all year.

Considering you haven't joined the Last Hearth, I'm not surprised. B) LOL I'm kidding of course.

And thank you! I very much appreciate the compliment. There's a lot more where that came from, though.

 

Quote

It turns out GRRM is just as 'coyly self-congratulatory' as you, so you're in good company..!  :P

LOL! Yes, GRRM definitely fits that bill.

 

Quote

I've identified the catchphrase 'not worth telling' and/or 'not worthy repeating' as a flag for the reader that what we've been told about these three 'well-known' tales is a lie, and contrary to GRRM's coy protestations, each of these three stories is essential to understand in full.  They're also archetypal, therefore have been literally 'repeated' by GRRM himself throughout the narrative in various forms.

Oh most definitely. You're not alone in that identification. GRRM likes to use interruptions as well. Those damned en dashes!

He also likes to hide truths in the mouths of fools and cowards, while wise and brave men dismiss them:

"Will saw them," Gared said. "If he says they are dead, that's proof enough for me."

Will had known they would drag him into the quarrel sooner or later. He wished it had been later rather than sooner. "My mother told me that dead men sing no songs," he put in.

"My wet nurse said the same thing, Will," Royce replied. "Never believe anything you hear at a woman's tit. There are things to be learned even from the dead." His voice echoed, too loud in the twilit forest.

 

"Never believe anything you hear at a woman's tit." So spake Ser Waymar Royce shortly before the Others came out of Old Nan's wetnurse tales and turned him into a wight.

Gotta love how GRRM uses the warhammer of hubris to crush the life out of ambitious lordlings.

 

Quote

P.S.  So, who is Jon's father then?

A topic for another thread, surely. This OP is not intended to be a parentage theory. It is only to draw attention to the statistical scarcity of people with gifts from the Old Gods, and how the current generation of youth from Winterfell are an exception to that scarcity.

 

Quote

You're a romantic after all!  :)

Big time. :)

Edited by Voice
Dornish keyboard

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3 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

So what I got from the OP is that they are implying that GRRM is endlessly plagiarizing himself again and again (like Rob Liefeld but less bad) to the point where we can glean info on (supposed) hidden mysteries in ASoIaF from his various other works. 

No. George may do that within his 1,000 worlds universe, but ASOIAF is not part of that universe so nothing translates 1:1 from that one to this one. He does, undoubtedly, use very similar themes and objects in very similar ways... but he does change it depending on which world it is on. For instance, in Dying of the Light, the main guy and his girlfriend "steal" aircars that look like giant wolves. They "slip" in to them as well. In ASOIAF world that would be warging. Those types of things object-wise (over and over). GRRM does use the idea of genetic mutations, blood "purity" and how it ends in failure, the constant need to know one's own name = identity, discovering what oaths and honor truly mean, religious extremism, nature .vs. nurture, loneliness and  broken promises, and the like in all of his books.

3 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

And somehow this makes Lyanna a super-special-awesome Greenseer who hands out Direwolf puppies to Starks in need.

Serious mode: Yes, an author can have favourite tropes and themes, but skilled writers are capable of using those tropes in different ways that don't necessarily interconnect their works or make them mirror images of one another.

I know you are being a little cheeky here (love it:wub:), but I am always a little confused when other posters who are not being cheeky at all poo-poo the idea that a writer has an inherit theme within himself that he is trying to tell. And funnily enough, it seems to be many of the other posters that want to analyze the life out of ASOIAF using things like Greek and Norse mythology, or the Catholic church, or the War of the Roses, or the Black Dinner, or Zoroastrianism, etc, but get angry at the idea that George uses his own mind to write his own story. Write what you know, right?

Sorry, I did not mean to use your post as a catalyst for a rant that I did not even realize I had in me. Let me buy the next round to make up for it :cheers:

Oh, and speaking for myself, I can't say that I agree with the ideas of Lyanna being a greenseer or pup mother. I would need more discussion on that to be convinced.

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4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

No. George may do that within his 1,000 worlds universe, but ASOIAF is not part of that universe so nothing translates 1:1 from that one to this one. He does, undoubtedly, use very similar themes and objects in very similar ways... but he does change it depending on which world it is on. For instance, in Dying of the Light, the main guy and his girlfriend "steal" aircars that look like giant wolves. They "slip" in to them as well. In ASOIAF world that would be warging. Those types of things object-wise (over and over). GRRM does use the idea of genetic mutations, blood "purity" and how it ends in failure, the constant need to know one's own name = identity, discovering what oaths and honor truly mean, religious extremism, nature .vs. nurture, loneliness and  broken promises, and the like in all of his books.

Agree regarding name and identity, but it seems like quite a stretch to name driving a car as slipping into another skin. Dying of the Light is a great book, but is pretty devoid of skinchanger behavior. The closest we get is the whisper jewel, but even that is a stretch.

For bona fide warg-behavior, check out Dark, Dark Were the Tunnels and Tuf's cat in Tuf Voyaging

 

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I know you are being a little cheeky here (love it:wub:), but I am always a little confused when other posters who are not being cheeky at all poo-poo the idea that a writer has an inherit theme within himself that he is trying to tell. And funnily enough, it seems to be many of the other posters that want to analyze the life out of ASOIAF using things like Greek and Norse mythology, or the Catholic church, or the War of the Roses, or the Black Dinner, or Zoroastrianism, etc, but get angry at the idea that George uses his own mind to write his own story. Write what you know, right?

LOL! Quite true.

I find resistance to the idea mainly comes from those who have not bothered to read GRRM's other works. Without being able to make a direct comparison for themselves, the only argument they can provide is one that attempts to devalue the effort to become familiar with GRRM's great body of work (of which, asoiaf is but one very small fraction).

Those who have read them (particularly the 1000 worlds short stories) see the parallels immediately. Varys, Littlefinger, Lyanna, Jon... these are all characters he's written before. At times, they even bear the same names.

 

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Oh, and speaking for myself, I can't say that I agree with the ideas of Lyanna being a greenseer or pup mother. I would need more discussion on that to be convinced.

I'm not arguing that Lyanna was a greenseer, nor that she birthed the pups herself. LOL

What I arguing is that House Stark itself is a keg for the brew known as the Awakening Old Powers. But, that keg has been shelved and aged for many generations.

I propose that Lyanna was the one that finally tapped that keg. Ghost is the result of that tapping.

It cannot be denied that the current generation of Winterfell youth is far more like the sculptures in the crypts than the generation before them. Each one of them, 6/6, had a direwolf at their feet.

This is far more than is normal for Westeros. Bloodraven, a reliable narrator on the subject, gave us the ratios I detailed in the OP:

0.1% of men are skinchangers, yet 100% of Winterfell's current generation are.

0.0001% of men are greenseers, yet at least 17% of Winterfell's current generation has the gift of greenseeing (1/6 = Bran).

Either the current generation is an anomaly, whose receptivity to the Old Powers has been augmented (by direwolves), or, the current generation is a return to the norm, whose receptivity to the Old Powers has been repaired (by direwolves). I have a feeling most people here will lean towards the former.

I lean towards the latter, and believe that until 200 years ago, it was quite standard, or at least, common, for Starks to have direwolves in tow. As Bloodraven said, Bran's blood is what makes him a greenseer.

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7 minutes ago, Voice said:

Agree regarding name and identity, but it seems like quite a stretch to name driving a car as slipping into another skin. Dying of the Light is a great book, but is pretty devoid of skinchanger behavior. The closest we get is the whisper jewel, but even that is a stretch.

For bona fide warg-behavior, check out Dark, Dark Were the Tunnels and Tuf's cat in Tuf Voyaging

 

LOL! Quite true.

I find resistance to the idea mainly comes from those who have not bothered to read GRRM's other works. Without being able to make a direct comparison for themselves, the only argument they can provide is one that attempts to devalue the effort to become familiar with GRRM's great body of work (of which, asoiaf is but one very small fraction).

Those who have read them (particularly the 1000 worlds short stories) see the parallels immediately. Varys, Littlefinger, Lyanna, Jon... these are all characters he's written before. At times, they even bear the same names.

Yeah, I have read several of the 1,000 world stories, and even two of his three truly time travel stories (one is out of print and near impossible to find), and even in those stories he uses the same types of inner struggles, going to a dark place to find yourself, weird dreams, etc motif. I think to try and make more concrete predictions about future ASOIAF plotlines, it could be helpful to read GRRM's other stories to see which dots connect. It is not required, but it helps. Same with the Dunk & Egg, the Princess and the Queen, and Rogue Prince. They are helpful (and fun) but not really required for the main series. Just my thoughts, of course.

7 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

I'm not arguing that Lyanna was a greenseer, nor that she birthed the pups herself. LOL

Yeah, looking back I may have been conflating some info from a few threads in my head that just today has similar content.

7 minutes ago, Voice said:

What I arguing is that House Stark itself is a keg for the brew known as the Awakening Old Powers. But, that keg has been shelved and aged for many generations.

I propose that Lyanna was the one that finally tapped that keg. Ghost is the result of that tapping.

Anything in particular? Why Lyanna? Not to say she wasn't worthy of such honors, just that I am drawing a blank.

7 minutes ago, Voice said:

It cannot be denied that the current generation of Winterfell youth is far more like the sculptures in the crypts than the generation before them. Each one of them, 6/6, had a direwolf at their feet.

I agree with this. Good points.

7 minutes ago, Voice said:

This is far more than is normal for Westeros. Bloodraven, a reliable narrator on the subject, gave us the ratios I detailed in the OP:

0.1% of men are skinchangers, yet 100% of Winterfell's current generation are.

0.0001% of men are greenseers, yet at least 17% of Winterfell's current generation has the gift of greenseeing (1/6 = Bran).

Either the current generation is an anomaly, whose receptivity to the Old Powers has been augmented (by direwolves), or, the current generation is a return to the norm, whose receptivity to the Old Powers has been repaired (by direwolves). I have a feeling most people here will lean towards the former.

I lean towards the latter, and believe that until 200 years ago, it was quite standard, or at least, common, for Starks to have direwolves in tow. As Bloodraven said, Bran's blood is what makes him a greenseer.

I am not sure what the 200 years ago link it (yet, I will read it), but if it has anything to do with "Good" Queen Alysanne and Jaehaerys...:angry2:... then yeah, those two wrecked the north for some sort of gain, fear of magic, cutting off magic, tricking the NW and norhern people, money and undeserved power. I think the fact that George literally named someone as "Good" should be a massive, skyscraper sized red flag to pay attention because the opposite is actually true.

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I'll admit the notion of Lyanna being a warg trapped in the direwolf is an intriguing thought, but doesn't seem too practical. For Lyanna to warg into a direwolf, it would've had to have been around during her death, which means Ned would have recognized it. Which means Ned's notion to kill the pups would be quite puzzling. Furthermore it wouldn't explain how the "gift" passed from aunt to her brother's children.

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15 hours ago, TheSeer27 said:

What about the stag that killed the Direwolf?

Or was it Gared with a bone dagger? There is no dead stag in the book.

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9 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

So what I got from the OP is that they are implying that GRRM is endlessly plagiarizing himself again and again (like Rob Liefeld but less bad) to the point where we can glean info on (supposed) hidden mysteries in ASoIaF from his various other works. 

Plagiarism is stealing/copying the work of others. In ASoIF GRRM is developing some of his own earlier ideas and work - a very different matter

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11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Or was it Gared with a bone dagger? There is no dead stag in the book.

There was a foot of antler in the direwolves throat. No there wasn't a dead stag, but they didn't exactly look for one either. Also, I don't believe Gared could kill a Direwolf.

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