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Lyanna Stark: A Gift from Old Gods

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3 minutes ago, TheSeer27 said:

There was a foot of antler in the direwolves throat. No there wasn't a dead stag, but they didn't exactly look for one either. Also, I don't believe Gared could kill a Direwolf.

Yes, but was the antler a dagger like the one Val carried? Why was Gared allowed to escape from the blue-eyed lot? How did the she-wolf come through the Wall [the Black Gate?] and why was she killed at the just right time and right place to deliver the pups which the children of Winterfell were meant to have and brought out to receive by the killing of Gared?

Gared probably couldn't slay a full grown she-direwolf in a real fight, but a ritual sacrifice with a bone dagger is a different matter entirely.

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21 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Yes, but was the antler a dagger like the one Val carried? Why was Gared allowed to escape from the blue-eyed lot? How did the she-wolf come through the Wall [the Black Gate?] and why was she killed at the just right time and right place to deliver the pups which the children of Winterfell were meant to have and brought out to receive by the killing of Gared?

Gared probably couldn't slay a full grown she-direwolf in a real fight, but a ritual sacrifice with a bone dagger is a different matter entirely.

I was re-reading that passage and was struck by the fact that the tines had been snapped off the antler.  Why?  Fashioned as a weapon?

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33 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Yes, but was the antler a dagger like the one Val carried? Why was Gared allowed to escape from the blue-eyed lot? How did the she-wolf come through the Wall [the Black Gate?] and why was she killed at the just right time and right place to deliver the pups which the children of Winterfell were meant to have and brought out to receive by the killing of Gared?

Gared probably couldn't slay a full grown she-direwolf in a real fight, but a ritual sacrifice with a bone dagger is a different matter entirely.

So what are you saying? The Others spared Gared to kill the Direwolf?  I agree, who sent the direwolf and how Gared escaped the Others is what we've all been wondering for years lol. Although now thinking about it, the direwolf being pregnant would make it weaker so maybe Gared or someone/something else could have slain it.

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51 minutes ago, TheSeer27 said:

So what are you saying? The Others spared Gared to kill the Direwolf?  I agree, who sent the direwolf and how Gared escaped the Others is what we've all been wondering for years lol. Although now thinking about it, the direwolf being pregnant would make it weaker so maybe Gared or someone/something else could have slain it.

I'm not sure.  @Black Crow and @Voice like to drop provocative hints (subverting the 'accepted canonical wisdom', naturally) and let us figure out the implications...;)

If Jon like Ghost was truly 'born with the dead,' that means that Ghost -- because he was the first to open his eyes -- led the way out of the mother's dead body and into the world, with the other blind and relatively more helpless siblings following him.  I suspect Ghost will be performing the same 'midwife' function for Jon when he's stuck in the life-death limbo following his execution.

Edited by ravenous reader

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1 hour ago, TheSeer27 said:

So what are you saying? The Others spared Gared to kill the Direwolf?  I agree, who sent the direwolf and how Gared escaped the Others is what we've all been wondering for years lol. Although now thinking about it, the direwolf being pregnant would make it weaker so maybe Gared or someone/something else could have slain it.

 

My spin on this is a bit different than @Black Crow's.

I'm Team Antler, he's Team Dagger. And we've debated the merits of each for years. LOL

I see the foot of shattered antler as just that – no human hands forged it.

But, Gared was indeed the messenger (who was a crow sent by the Others to the Stark in Winterfell). I fleshed out this idea in a conversation with @TheButcherCrow, @pieceofgosa at The Last Hearth.

If that interests you, you can find that conversation here:

http://thelasthearth.com/post/53642/thread

Our Black Gate is always open. :D

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

I was re-reading that passage and was struck by the fact that the tines had been snapped off the antler.  Why?  Fashioned as a weapon?

That's one of the major clues that all aint what it seems here. If a foot of antler had simply snapped off - say as the stag first impaled and then tossed the she-wolf [some stag!] then you would expect it was described as a foot long tine, but the tines being snapped off before the she-wolf was stabbed implies something else entirely,

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On 3/27/2017 at 7:07 PM, Lord Lannister said:

I'll admit the notion of Lyanna being a warg trapped in the direwolf is an intriguing thought, but doesn't seem too practical.

Agreed. And thankfully, that isn't my argument. :D

Rather than be a warg trapped in that mother-wolf's body, I mean to suggest that Lyanna's consciousness is now a part of Winterfell's heart tree.

From her weirwood presence, she was able to send her son, Jon Snow, a weirwood-colored direwolf. In order for that direwolf to be delivered to Jon Snow, a female direwolf south of the Wall was required. A difficult task to be sure, but one that a She-Stark with wolf-blood was able to accomplish.

I see the other wolves as important, but peripheral to this motive. And, I see this act as opening the floodgates of House Stark's power (which were closed 200 years ago).

 

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For Lyanna to warg into a direwolf, it would've had to have been around during her death, which means Ned would have recognized it.

Not so.

Varamyr Sixskins was not near his wolf One-Eye when he died. Nor was Varamyr ever, in life, bonded with earthworms, squirrels, oak trees, hares, or sparrows.

He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that's in it, he thought, exulting.

 

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Which means Ned's notion to kill the pups would be quite puzzling.

Isn't this puzzling regardless?

Thankfully, Jon got the message Lyanna sent, and found the words to make Ned's face change from Ned the Lord to Ned the Father.

 

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Furthermore it wouldn't explain how the "gift" passed from aunt to her brother's children.

But it does.

The "gift," I argue, is already in House Stark. This is why they now exhibit a far higher ratio of the gift than the rest of humanity: 6/6, vs 0.1-0.0001 percent.

All Lyanna's weir-influence need do is reintroduce House Stark to the stimuli that activates this inherent blood gift.

Enter the direwolves.

I say "reintroduce," because until 200 years ago, it seems that House Stark was always under the influence of wolf blood.

Edited by Voice
Dornish Keyboard

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20 hours ago, Voice said:

Agree regarding name and identity, but it seems like quite a stretch to name driving a car as slipping into another skin. Dying of the Light is a great book, but is pretty devoid of skinchanger behavior. The closest we get is the whisper jewel, but even that is a stretch.

For bona fide warg-behavior, check out Dark, Dark Were the Tunnels and Tuf's cat in Tuf Voyaging

 

Somehow I missed this top part??? :dunno:

As far as the aircars, well, Dirk goes down into the dark, dark garage (or whatever) and he tries to "slip" into the other cars, but he can't. It is only when he gets to the white and silver enameled car that is a literal shape of a wolf that he can get inside. And once in, he remembers that it has red laser beams on the outside, and he has a slightly exhilarating experience when he describes "being able to see through the wolf's eyes". He then gets back out, but he doesn't lock the car because he wants to use it again later. But then he is caught.

I do like Dark, Dark, even if it was a little short. And honestly, I need to go back to that one because it has been a while. Tuf I have not gotten to yet... but it is on my list along with Fortress.

Now I have to go play "the game of mind";), and figure out what everyone wants for dinner. :lol:

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On 2017-03-27 at 2:35 PM, ravenous reader said:

Sigh...Voice, you're up to your usual coy self-congratulatory allusive-elusive style from which no-one can really benefit.  ;)  It's a pity, because you have a lot of wisdom to impart, so:  Please explicate!

Are you referring to @LynnS 's favorite 'Schmobert' for Jon's paternity theory?  For those unfamiliar with Lynn's 'Schmobert theory' (the lucky ones...just kidding Lynn :wub:), this is the theory that posits Robert raped Lyanna, whereafter Littlefinger blamed her disappearance on Rhaegar, hoping to get his rival Brandon Stark killed, to great success.

How do you envision her being killed by the King's Justice?  Where?  Why?  It would fit symbolically with the direwolf 'Lady' (who is also one of Lyanna's echoes) being unfairly condemned to death by Robert, who defers the killing to his executioner, before Ned intervenes and does the treacherous deed himself.

Also, where geographically do you think the 'promise me, Ned' scene occurred?

 

Just to be clear, Wolfmaid has convinced me that Schmobert did the deed.  Ned does act as the King's Justice in place of Robert and he is ultimately the cause of her death although he blames it on her wolf blood.  A reference to her behavior at the Tourney of Harrenhall where it begins.   

Geographically, she died on the Quiet Isle (where noble ladies sometimes go to give birth)  with Walys Halfmaester and Ned in attendance on the day that Robert celebrated his victories over the Battles of Summerhall; on his way from the Vale to Winterfell.  The day that Jon is born in other words.  They found him with her... the Silent Brothers. 

Edited by LynnS

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22 hours ago, Black Crow said:

That's one of the major clues that all aint what it seems here. If a foot of antler had simply snapped off - say as the stag first impaled and then tossed the she-wolf [some stag!] then you would expect it was described as a foot long tine, but the tines being snapped off before the she-wolf was stabbed implies something else entirely,

Is it representative of the Baratheons or the Horned Lord?

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22 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Somehow I missed this top part??? :dunno:

As far as the aircars, well, Dirk goes down into the dark, dark garage (or whatever) and he tries to "slip" into the other cars, but he can't. It is only when he gets to the white and silver enameled car that is a literal shape of a wolf that he can get inside. And once in, he remembers that it has red laser beams on the outside, and he has a slightly exhilarating experience when he describes "being able to see through the wolf's eyes". He then gets back out, but he doesn't lock the car because he wants to use it again later. But then he is caught.

I totally dig it, I'm just saying that we have some other comparisons that are apples to apples examples of skinchangers.

 

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I do like Dark, Dark, even if it was a little short. And honestly, I need to go back to that one because it has been a while. Tuf I have not gotten to yet... but it is on my list along with Fortress.

Dark Dark is amazing. I've added it to my reread prerequisites. LOL

It falls in line with the AGOT Prologue far better than the Dunk and Egg novellas, and is far more relevant (and I say that as a great fan of D&E).

Tuf is notable for several reasons. First, while I didn't realize it when I was writing it, it strongly supports this OP. Tuf is not a skinchanger, but the connection is awakened in him by a telepathic cat. Don't worry, I'm not giving anything away. This isn't the focus of the Tuf Voyaging stories.

Another reason why Tuf is notable, is that Tuf uses his cat-bond to solve real world problems and to see the truths that people try to hide. If that sounds familiar, that's because Jon does the same:

Jon had noticed that too. A bastard had to learn to notice things, to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes. His father was observing all the courtesies, but there was tightness in him that Jon had seldom seen before. He said little, looking out over the hall with hooded eyes, seeing nothing. Two seats away, the king had been drinking heavily all night. His broad face was flushed behind his great black beard. He made many a toast, laughed loudly at every jest, and attacked each dish like a starving man, but beside him the queen seemed as cold as an ice sculpture. "The queen is angry too," Jon told his uncle in a low, quiet voice. "Father took the king down to the crypts this afternoon. The queen didn't want him to go."

Benjen gave Jon a careful, measuring look. "You don't miss much, do you, Jon? We could use a man like you on the Wall."

 

And I think this is the real power of wolf blood. Or, at least one of them. I think Jon's wolf blooded spirit-mom sent him a lens through which he might better see the weir-world.

When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.

Jon?

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only . . .

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

And suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow as he stood upon the edge of a great precipice. Before him the Skirling Pass opened up into airy emptiness, and a long vee-shaped valley lay spread beneath him like a quilt, awash in all the colors of an autumn afternoon.

A vast blue-white wall plugged one end of the vale, squeezing between the mountains as if it had shouldered them aside, and for a moment he thought he had dreamed himself back to Castle Black. Then he realized he was looking at a river of ice several thousand feet high. Under that glittering cold cliff was a great lake, its deep cobalt waters reflecting the snowcapped peaks that ringed it. There were men down in the valley, he saw now; many men, thousands, a huge host. Some were tearing great holes in the half-frozen ground, while others trained for war. He watched as a swarming mass of riders charged a shield wall, astride horses no larger than ants. The sound of their mock battle was a rustling of steel leaves, drifting faintly on the wind. Their encampment had no plan to it; he saw no ditches, no sharpened stakes, no neat rows of horse lines. Everywhere crude earthen shelters and hide tents sprouted haphazardly, like a pox on the face of the earth. He spied untidy mounds of hay, smelled goats and sheep, horses and pigs, dogs in great profusion. Tendrils of dark smoke rose from a thousand cookfires.

This is no army, no more than it is a town. This is a whole people come together.

Across the long lake, one of the mounds moved. He watched it more closely and saw that it was not dirt at all, but alive, a shaggy lumbering beast with a snake for a nose and tusks larger than those of the greatest boar that had ever lived. And the thing riding it was huge as well, and his shape was wrong, too thick in the leg and hips to be a man.

Then a sudden gust of cold made his fur stand up, and the air thrilled to the sound of wings. As he lifted his eyes to the ice-white mountain heights above, a shadow plummeted out of the sky. A shrill scream split the air. He glimpsed blue-grey pinions spread wide, shutting out the sun . . .

 

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Now I have to go play "the game of mind";), and figure out what everyone wants for dinner. :lol:

Oooh, I dig The Glass Flower reference. Very nice. :D

 

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Is it representative of the Baratheons or the Horned Lord?

I'm implying that the tines were snapped off prior to its being used as a dagger in order to ensure that it penetrated deeply enough to kill the beast. If they were retained they would have stopped it going in so far.

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1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

I'm implying that the tines were snapped off prior to its being used as a dagger in order to ensure that it penetrated deeply enough to kill the beast. If they were retained they would have stopped it going in so far.

Yes, i agree.  I think they were snapped off and this wasn't a fight between a direwolf and a stag.  I think the direwolf came with Gared, why would he be spared otherwise.  It's seems more of a sacrifice.  But rather than being symbolic of the Baratheons killing the Starks; I relate it to the Horned Lord.

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

But rather than being symbolic of the Baratheons killing the Starks; I relate it to the Horned Lord.

Wow, this would never have occurred to me, but it seems awfully apt if one

1) Believes that the pregnant direwolf passed the Wall, coming from the Haunted Forest somehow

2) Recalls this passage from the World book:

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The Horned Lord would follow them, a thousand years after (or perhaps two). His name is lost to history, but he was said to have used sorcery to pass the Wall.

 

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33 minutes ago, JNR said:

Wow, this would never have occurred to me, but it seems awfully apt if one

1) Believes that the pregnant direwolf passed the Wall, coming from the Haunted Forest somehow

2) Recalls this passage from the World book:

 

I wonder if Mance Rayder goes by any secret titles.  B)  You need a man of the Watch to open the Black Gate and there is that second door down a sinkhole somewhere.  Val is another to keep your eyes on.  She is the one who tells Jon about the Horned Lord's warning concerning sorcery and someone who casually walked off with Ghost at one point.   

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9 hours ago, LynnS said:

 But rather than being symbolic of the Baratheons killing the Starks; I relate it to the Horned Lord.

But are the two necessarily incompatible. I believe the Baratheon stag comes from the Storm Lord side of the family

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6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

But are the two necessarily incompatible. I believe the Baratheon stag comes from the Storm Lord side of the family

Oh yes indeed! In fact, that's even better, mirrors of Lyanna/Jon and Direwolf/Ghost.  The pup survives and the mother is sacrificed.  To my way of thinking Jon is a Baratheon and the Snow-Storm to use the bastard parlance.  I think two of Aegon V bloodlines have consequence through Jaehaerys and Rhaelle; producing the the true dragon (Dany) and the true sword (Jon).  And so we have the serpent and the sword symbolism of the Wall itself as well as the red comet, the red sword with a serpent's tail.  Conveniently we also have a mashup of two prophecies both involving salt and smoke with some variations.

In the end, there is too much horned lord/storm lord symbolism around Jon to dismiss.  

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16 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, i agree.  I think they were snapped off and this wasn't a fight between a direwolf and a stag.  I think the direwolf came with Gared, why would he be spared otherwise.  It's seems more of a sacrifice.  But rather than being symbolic of the Baratheons killing the Starks; I relate it to the Horned Lord.

We have no evidence that Gared saw the Others. He could have took a horse and left them there when they went to explore the village. Also, how could the Others convince Gared to do this for him. They can't just talk to him. We can't assume he was spared. Being on horseback, its conceivable he glimpsed them from afar and just rode south. The direwolf either could have already been in the Wolfswood, or it could have made its way south on its own (guided by Bloodraven, or the COTF.) The tines being snapped on the antler is definitely peculiar. But we just have no evidence it was Gared. Why would he sacrifice the direwolf then stick around long enough to be caught, just to get beheaded and die anyway?

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29 minutes ago, TheSeer27 said:

We have no evidence that Gared saw the Others. He could have took a horse and left them there when they went to explore the village. Also, how could the Others convince Gared to do this for him. They can't just talk to him. We can't assume he was spared. Being on horseback, its conceivable he glimpsed them from afar and just rode south. The direwolf either could have already been in the Wolfswood, or it could have made its way south on its own (guided by Bloodraven, or the COTF.) The tines being snapped on the antler is definitely peculiar. But we just have no evidence it was Gared. Why would he sacrifice the direwolf then stick around long enough to be caught, just to get beheaded and die anyway?

I find it unlikely that Gared would have escaped the WW's at all, given their speed and abilities.  We next see him at his execution babbling madness that unsettles everyone but not something they are willing to give credence.  We're never told exactly what he tells Ned although Benjen confirms that men are going missing.  As the reader, we've been shown what he saw.  Ned blames it on Mance and he might not be far off.  There might be a twist to Mance after all.

Gared, a Night'swatchan, man and boy, fled instead of going back to Castle Black.  Why?  What caused him to be so terrified.  How did he get beyond the Wall unseen?  How do we find direwolves beyond the Wall that have not been seen south of the Wall in 200 years?   It's quite possible that Gared wasn't alone coming past the Wall and someone else killed the She-wolf.  That would be someone who knows how to bypass the wall and someone who can control a direwolf.  Someone with warging or skinchanging ability.  In that case Gared was used as bait; to get the Starks to the place of execution; where the pups were most likely to be found.  That doesn't require a greenseer or the CotF.  It might only require some wildlings with special skills and knowledge.  Someone who easily disguises himself and can easily infiltrate and gather information, in the capacity of a bard.

What is so special about Mance?  Why did the Watch take an infant from a common wildling woman. That's out of character for the Watch. Unless Mance really does have king's blood and the red and black cloak he is given means something.  Blackfyre colors rather than Targ colors. Is he Bloodraven's get?   Is he just King-Beyond-the-Wall or something that has more weight and authority with the wildlings. Perhaps he is the Horned Lord beyond the Wall.  

    

 

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9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I find it unlikely that Gared would have escaped the WW's at all, given their speed and abilities.  We next see him at his execution babbling madness that unsettles everyone but not something they are willing to give credence.  We're never told exactly what he tells Ned although Benjen confirms that men are going missing.  As the reader, we've been shown what he saw.  Ned blames it on Mance and he might not be far off.  There might be a twist to Mance after all.

Gared, a Night'swatchan, man and boy, fled instead of going back to Castle Black.  Why?  What caused him to be so terrified.  How did he get beyond the Wall unseen?  How do we find direwolves beyond the Wall that have not been seen south of the Wall in 200 years?   It's quite possible that Gared wasn't alone coming past the Wall and someone else killed the She-wolf.  That would be someone who knows how to bypass the wall and someone who can control a direwolf.  Someone with warging or skinchanging ability.  In that case Gared was used as bait; to get the Starks to the place of execution; where the pups were most likely to be found.  That doesn't require a greenseer or the CotF.  It might only require some wildlings with special skills and knowledge.  Someone who easily disguises himself and can easily infiltrate and gather information, in the capacity of a bard.

What is so special about Mance?  Why did the Watch take an infant from a common wildling woman. That's out of character for the Watch. Unless Mance really does have king's blood and the red and black cloak he is given means something.  Blackfyre colors rather than Targ colors. Is he Bloodraven's get?   Is he just King-Beyond-the-Wall or something that has more weight and authority with the wildlings. Perhaps he is the Horned Lord beyond the Wall.  

    

 

So Mance killed the direwolf? For what reasoning?

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