Advanced Crackpottery 5 - Dragonsteel

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Before we begin, please allow me to apologize for my last thread. That one turned out far less crackpot than intended. It also had a ton of text references. I'll try not to let that happen too often, as the posts in this series should not stray too far from the series title. And now on to the theory...

Sam finds references to something called dragonsteel being used during the Long Night, and he and Jon immediately think of Valyrian Steel. Well of course they do. They think dragons and immediately also think Valyria. But there were dragons once all over Planetos according to GRRM, long before there was a Valyrian Freehold, or Valyrian Steel. I submit that while Valyrian Steel may very well be able to kill the Others, it is not what the Night's Watch records refer to as dragonsteel.

For one thing, Valyria didn't exist yet as anything other than a shepherding community. For another, there was no iron, let alone steel in Westeros, and if anyone had brought some in (say from Asshai) somebody in Westeros would have bought some like it or started an import business and made a fortune in the dragonsteel trade.

Now that THAT is out of the way, I can start advancing ye olde cracked pottery once more.

In AGoT, Tyrion II we learn about the properties of dragonbone.

Quote

On the eighteenth night of their journey, the wine was a rare sweet amber from the Summer Isles that he had brought all the way north from Casterly Rock, and the book a rumination on the history and properties of dragons. With Lord Eddard Stark's permission, Tyrion had borrowed a few rare volumes from the Winterfell library and packed them for the ride north.

He found a comfortable spot just beyond the noise of the camp, beside a swift-running stream with waters clear and cold as ice. A grotesquely ancient oak provided shelter from the biting wind. Tyrion curled up in his fur with his back against the trunk, took a sip of the wine, and began to read about the properties of dragonbone. Dragonbone is black because of its high iron content, the book told him. It is strong as steel, yet lighter and far more flexible, and of course utterly impervious to fire. Dragonbone bows are greatly prized by the Dothraki, and small wonder. An archer so armed can outrange any wooden bow.

I submit that dragonsteel refers to blades made out of dragonbone. Don't start throwing over-ripe fruit just yet. 

Dragonbone has a high iron content, and we all know that the Andals managed to kick ass when they showed up, in part because they had superior weapons...made of iron as opposed to the First Men's bronze.

Dragonbone is lighter than steel. This makes it highly portable, an excellent quality if you're tracking The Great Other, have to retreat but don't want to leave your weapons behind, or just prefer not to travel unarmed during Long Nights.

Dragonbone is impervious to flame, which makes any weapon made from it far more versatile. Sure you can kill a wight with just flame, and you can kill an Other with magic blades, but what if you had one weapon that could kill both? I know if I were fighting Others and wights I would find it terribly convenient to have one weapon that does the job of two. Why I would pay at least $49.95 plus tax and shipping for something like that! What about you, Puddles?

Puddles: Are you kidding me? I'm not touching that stuff. You said it might kill me!

Always so practical. That's why we love you, Puddles.

So aside, from the above, what is so special about dragonbone? It's rare. How rare, you ask? Let's go to TWOIAF for the answer:

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The World of Ice and Fire, Beyond the Free Cities: The Summer Isles

Nor can their bows be matched by common bows, for the princes of the isles have forbidden the export of goldenheart wood since the Slavers' Wars; only bows of dragonbone are known to surpass them, and those are exceedingly rare.

Goldenheart bows are, forgive the pun, the gold standard. So this dragonbone is pretty darned awesome stuff.

While dragons once lived all over Planetos, per the author, I would imagine it was always potentially hazardous to collect their bones. Even the ones who died in the wild probably died in areas of high dragon population. So unless one was in a place where there were no more living dragons, it would have taken a very careful and extraordinarily lucky person to successfully harvest those bones. Still, if a dragon crash-landed somewhere, it would be doable. 

Since the Doom of Valyria, dragonbone will undoubtedly have gotten more rare. And since the last Targaryen dragons died out, the price has doubtless skyrockted. How could we find out some current prices? Well we'd have to ask the only person in the cast who we know trades in dragonbone...that lovable Dothraki matchmaker himself, Magister Illyrio Mopatis. 

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AGoT, Dany I

Dany said nothing. Magister Illyrio was a dealer in spices, gemstones, dragonbone, and other, less savory things.

 That's right, Varys' friend, Dany's dragon egg source, and Pentos' most successful cheesemonger. Not to mention he's been putting his dragon eggs in more than one basket so to speak, which could be important because he could be called upon by one or both dragons to send all the dragonbone he can get his hands on, and send it fast. 

Now, what mentions of dragonbone are there in the series outside of Tyrion's reading and the list of what Illyrio sells?
 
-there's Viserys fastening his hair with a dragonbone brooch. AGOT, Dany I
-Qotho giving Daenerys a double-curved dragonbone bow that's taller than she is. AGOT, Dany II
-A dragonbone bow that Dany places on Drogo's funeral pyre, which may have survived given that it's impervious to flame (note this is not the same as her bride gift, which she gave to Aggo) AGOT, Dany X
-the VS dagger used to try and kill Bran had a hilt of plain dragonbone. AGOT and ACOK, multiple
-"the harpy's fingers" whip that Kraznys mo Nakloz gives Dany when she purchases the Unsullied has an elaborately carved dragonbone handle inlaid with gold. ASOS, Dany III
-Jon Connington thinking about how only dragonbone bows can outrange those of goldenheart. He's got some goldenheart bowman with him but apparently no dragonbone ones. ADWD, The Griffin Reborn

Seven out of seventeen quotes refer to the assassin's dagger, and most of those I found unhelpful but one in particular caught my eye.

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AGoT, Ned XIII

"You forget," Ned told him. "You forget Jon Arryn. You forget Jory Cassel. And you forget this." He drew the dagger and laid it on the table between them; a length of dragonbone and Valyrian steel, as sharp as the difference between right and wrong, between true and false, between life and death.

Life and death. Thank you Ned for bringing me back to what's important.

The coming battle against the Others will be a life and death struggle, and whether or not Valyrian Steel will help in that struggle, there won't be enough of it to go around. They're going to need something more: dragonsteel. 

Getting back to the possibility of dragonsteel referring to weapons made of dragonbone, let's take a look at the largest source of dragonbone currently in Westeros...the skulls of Targaryen dragons, in the bowels of the Red Keep.

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AGoT, Tyrion II

Tyrion had a morbid fascination with dragons. When he had first come to King's Landing for his sister's wedding to Robert Baratheon, he had made it a point to seek out the dragon skulls that had hung on the walls of Targaryen's throne room. King Robert had replaced them with banners and tapestries, but Tyrion had persisted until he found the skulls in the dank cellar where they had been stored.

He had expected to find them impressive, perhaps even frightening. He had not thought to find them beautiful. Yet they were. As black as onyx, polished smooth, so the bone seemed to shimmer in the light of his torch. They liked the fire, he sensed. He'd thrust the torch into the mouth of one of the larger skulls and made the shadows leap and dance on the wall behind him. The teeth were long, curving knives of black diamond. The flame of the torch was nothing to them; they had bathed in the heat of far greater fires. When he had moved away, Tyrion could have sworn that the beast's empty eye sockets had watched him go.

There were nineteen skulls. The oldest was more than three thousand years old; the youngest a mere century and a half. The most recent were also the smallest; a matched pair no bigger than mastiff's skulls, and oddly misshapen, all that remained of the last two hatchlings born on Dragonstone. They were the last of the Targaryen dragons, perhaps the last dragons anywhere, and they had not lived very long.

From there the skulls ranged upward in size to the three great monsters of song and story, the dragons that Aegon Targaryen and his sisters had unleashed on the Seven Kingdoms of old. The singers had given them the names of gods: Balerion, Meraxes, Vhaghar. Tyrion had stood between their gaping jaws, wordless and awed. You could have ridden a horse down Vhaghar's gullet, although you would not have ridden it out again. Meraxes was even bigger. And the greatest of them, Balerion, the Black Dread, could have swallowed an aurochs whole, or even one of the hairy mammoths said to roam the cold wastes beyond the Port of Ibben.

That's a lot of bone there. Of particular interest to me though is Tyrion's feeling of the empty eye sockets watching him leave. Take that, and add a pinch of this....

AGoT, Arya III

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Arya got to her feet, moving warily. The heads were all around her. She touched one, curious, wondering if it was real. Her fingertips brushed a massive jaw. It felt real enough. The bone was smooth beneath her hand, cold and hard to the touch. She ran her fingers down a tooth, black and sharp, a dagger made of darkness. It made her shiver.

"It's dead," she said aloud. "It's just a skull, it can't hurt me." Yet somehow the monster seemed to know she was there. She could feel its empty eyes watching her through the gloom, and there was something in that dim, cavernous room that did not love her. She edged away from the skull and backed into a second, larger than the first. For an instant she could feel its teeth digging into her shoulder, as if it wanted a bite of her flesh. Arya whirled, felt leather catch and tear as a huge fang nipped at her jerkin, and then she was running. Another skull loomed ahead, the biggest monster of all, but Arya did not even slow. She leapt over a ridge of black teeth as tall as swords, dashed through hungry jaws, and threw herself against the door.

A little girl's fear? Sure. But Tyrion is no little girl, and he isn't afraid. I believe there's magic lurking yet in those dragon skulls. And magic could be the key to making dragonbone into  a dual-purpose ice zombie fighting tool.

I was also struck by the definition of the tooth as a "dagger made of darkness." Nice reference to night there. Dare I suggest a...long night?  I've long pondered the possibility that the Night's Watch wears black so that they can blend into the shadows the better to fight against the Others. Would sure be nice to have a weapon that blended into the shadows too. 

So dragonbone fits a number of pretty awesome criteria for what you'd think First Men might need for fighting Others and Wights. 

That's all well and good, I hear someone preparing to type, but what about when King's Landing gets blown up with wildfire?  No problem! Dragonbone is impervious to flame! The worst the wildfire is likely to do is melt the skulls down, which might make it easier to make weapons out of them. But it's magic flame, you protest! Okay, let's say the worst happens, and something in the chemical makeup or the magical makeup of the wildfire causes the dragon skulls to be destroyed. Then what?

Wait. What about Illyrio? We can just order dragonbone from him! But what if something happens to Illyrio? The Tattered Prince wants Pentos. What happens if he gets Pentos? Will he have any grudges against anyone still there? Maybe the people who offered him the dangerous job of prince. Maybe a certain magister was in on that. Or maybe he wasn't but trade will get disrupted big time. Getting good quantities of dragonbone to Westeros  in a timely fashion could be difficult. Well then we're just screwed, aren't we?

Or maybe not. We have three dragons. I'm not suggesting killing all of them, by the way. But should it come down to a choice of saving Westeros or not, Dany might have to make a sacrifice of one. Most likely that would be the one who would yield the most bone...the biggest dragon...Drogon. And while the preferred method of dragon killing is usually a crossbow quarrel or an arrow through the eye, a sword into the heart might do. In plunging a sword into the heart of the dragon she named after her first love, she would in essence be reinacting the scene between Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa. Perhaps the heat and the magic from the heart of a dragon would transform her sword into something special, something red and burning, something that...oh, I don't know...brings light?

Bonus: if Dany is holding Widow's Wail, after Tobho Mott so helpfully added dye, she would literally have a "red sword of heroes." Then she can go to town on the Others and others. Not quite the wailing Joff was intending when he named the sword, but after all Dany is a widow, so it fits.

But you know that whole bit about the red sword doesn't say hero, it says heroes. Good thing Widow's Wail has a twin, huh? It's just possible that because Ice had been originally forged with magic...dare I say fire and blood...Oathkeeper could be affected by anything that happens to Widow's Wail. These swords could be cosmically linked. Now Mel's use of the plural makes more sense, doesn't it?

And who do you think should wield the twin sword to Dany's? Someone who has Targaryen blood and keeps his oath to protect the realms of men? 

Potentially more than one option, but like Mel, I'm only seeing Snow. 

[LynnS]

Very nice!  I've always thought that dragon's teeth would make effective weapons for all the reasons stated. I do think dragonbone and dragonsteel are the same thing.  I suspect that Dragonbinder and the Horn of Winter  are also black dragon's horn.  While the Dawn Sword might also be the rarest dragonsteel yet.
 

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

Summed up like that, his life seemed a rather scant and mingy thing. Ser Barristan could have recorded a few of his other tourney victories, at least. And Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he'd performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner's life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he'd held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

 

 

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three. "And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

 

I don't think we're talking about an ice dragon specifically, so much as an albino dragon. 

Along with the high iron content, there is a certain magical quality that can only be seen in the white blade. I suspect that it's the addition of finely crushed dragonbone that gives Valyrian steel it's special quality.  It also seems more likely to me that dragon binding horns are actually dragon horn. 

So I doubt that the black great horn found by Mance is Joramun's horn but rather a dragon binding horn of the type in Euron's possession and not something that Melisandre is likely to have destroyed with fire when she burned Rattleshirt.

An albino dragon that could potentially have blue eyes and blue flame.   

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Dragonsteel . From a time were there is no dragons and steel haven't been invented yet . Crackpot / Tinfoil theory  . I am probably wrong but dragonsteel maybe another term for the Mesoamerican weapon Macuahuitl ( a wooden sword with a obsidian blades ).

[Lady Blizzardborn]

5 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Dragonsteel . From a time were there is no dragons and steel haven't been invented yet . Crackpot / Tinfoil theory  . I am probably wrong but dragonsteel maybe another term for the Mesoamerican weapon Macuahuitl ( a wooden sword with a obsidian blades ).

First, look at the series title. Then look at me. Now back to the title. Now back to me. If it were easily proven fact, I would not have included it in a series called Advanced Crackpottery. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

We actually don't know whether there were dragons living during the Long Night or not. Dragons existed before the Valyrian empire began, and according to GRRM they once lived all over the world. Even if they weren't living in Westeros there may have been dragon bones left over from the time when they did roam all of Planetos.

You make a fair point for Macuahuitl, but then why would someone writing it down centuries later not just say wooden swords with dragonglass blades? Why add the term steel? Maybe trying to make it sound better?

 

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

Very nice!  I've always thought that dragon's teeth would make effective weapons for all the reasons stated. I do think dragonbone and dragonsteel are the same thing.  I suspect that Dragonbinder and the Horn of Winter  are also black dragon's horn.  While the Dawn Sword might also be the rarest dragonsteel yet.
 

 

I don't think we're talking about an ice dragon specifically, so much as an albino dragon. 

Along with the high iron content, there is a certain magical quality that can only be seen in the white blade. I suspect that it's the addition of finely crushed dragonbone that gives Valyrian steel it's special quality.  It also seems more likely to me that dragon binding horns are actually dragon horn. 

So I doubt that the black great horn found by Mance is Joramun's horn but rather a dragon binding horn of the type in Euron's possession and not something that Melisandre is likely to have destroyed with fire when she burned Rattleshirt.

An albino dragon that could potentially have blue eyes and blue flame.   

Thank you, Lynn S.

I don't think Dawn is made of dragonbone, unless it's dragonbone that was majorly altered (so much so that it changed color) by magic. Even an albino dragon would still have black bones if the iron content was the same in them.

GRRM has said that dragonbone is not used in Valyrian Steel.

We know that the horn Mance found wasn't Joramun's. Tormund said so. But the possibility of it being a dragon binding horn is definitely intriguing. I wonder whether Jon would recognize Valyrian glyphs or if he would just think they were standard First Men runes. The gold bands should have been his first clue that it wasn't the Horn of Winter, which would have bronze bands.

[Damon_Tor]

11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I submit that dragonsteel refers to blades made out of dragonbone.

I've always felt that dragonbone was likely the source of Valyrian steel to begin with. Start with a dragonbone and super-heat it by some now unknown process then hammer it into a blade.

[Lady Flandrensis]

8 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Dragonsteel . From a time were there is no dragons and steel haven't been invented yet . Crackpot / Tinfoil theory  . I am probably wrong but dragonsteel maybe another term for the Mesoamerican weapon Macuahuitl ( a wooden sword with a obsidian blades ).

I don't think it's crackpottery at all. That would be very GRRM. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

I've always felt that dragonbone was likely the source of Valyrian steel to begin with. Start with a dragonbone and super-heat it by some now unknown process then hammer it into a blade.

Unfortunately, GRRM has said there is no dragonbone in Valyrian Steel. What makes VS special is the magic that goes into it, fire and blood and being forged with spells. But there was no Valyria, and no VS during the Long Night. So dragonsteel is most likely to refer to something else. 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

23 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Before we begin, please allow me to apologize for my last thread. That one turned out far less crackpot than intended. It also had a ton of text references. I'll try not to let that happen too often, as the posts in this series should not stray too far from the series title. And now on to the theory...

...

Now that THAT is out of the way, I can start advancing ye olde cracked pottery once more.

Uum, when can we start calling your last piece of crackpottery thrown at us as more of a really possible theory???

23 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

~~~

That's all well and good, I hear someone preparing to type, but what about when King's Landing gets blown up with wildfire?  No problem! Dragonbone is impervious to flame!

I always wondered about that, too. That and what happens to the iron throne if the wildfire plot happens.

23 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The worst the wildfire is likely to do is melt the skulls down, which might make it easier to make weapons out of them. But it's magic flame, you protest! Okay, let's say the worst happens, and something in the chemical makeup or the magical makeup of the wildfire causes the dragon skulls to be destroyed. Then what?

Wait. What about Illyrio? We can just order dragonbone from him! But what if something happens to Illyrio? The Tattered Prince wants Pentos. What happens if he gets Pentos? Will he have any grudges against anyone still there? Maybe the people who offered him the dangerous job of prince. Maybe a certain magister was in on that. Or maybe he wasn't but trade will get disrupted big time. Getting good quantities of dragonbone to Westeros  in a timely fashion could be difficult. Well then we're just screwed, aren't we?

Or maybe not. We have three dragons. I'm not suggesting killing all of them, by the way. But should it come down to a choice of saving Westeros or not, Dany might have to make a sacrifice of one. Most likely that would be the one who would yield the most bone...the biggest dragon...Drogon. And while the preferred method of dragon killing is usually a crossbow quarrel or an arrow through the eye, a sword into the heart might do. In plunging a sword into the heart of the dragon she named after her first love, she would in essence be reinacting the scene between Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa. Perhaps the heat and the magic from the heart of a dragon would transform her sword into something special, something red and burning, something that...oh, I don't know...brings light?

Bonus: if Dany is holding Widow's Wail, after Tobho Mott so helpfully added dye, she would literally have a "red sword of heroes." Then she can go to town on the Others and others. Not quite the wailing Joff was intending when he named the sword, but after all Dany is a widow, so it fits.

But you know that whole bit about the red sword doesn't say hero, it says heroes. Good thing Widow's Wail has a twin, huh? It's just possible that because Ice had been originally forged with magic...dare I say fire and blood...Oathkeeper could be affected by anything that happens to Widow's Wail. These swords could be cosmically linked. Now Mel's use of the plural makes more sense, doesn't it?

And who do you think should wield the twin sword to Dany's? Someone who has Targaryen blood and keeps his oath to protect the realms of men? 

Potentially more than one option, but like Mel, I'm only seeing Snow. 

This is an awesome piece of clay you are throwing here for your crackpot. I can see the potential of at least some of this coming true in a way.

I especially love the Widoes Wail and Oathkeeper aspect. One of the best I've read so far. Heroes is correct.

6 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Unfortunately, GRRM has said there is no dragonbone in Valyrian Steel. What makes VS special is the magic that goes into it, fire and blood and being forged with spells. But there was no Valyria, and no VS during the Long Night. So dragonsteel is most likely to refer to something else. 

 

I had a very teeny, tiny crackpot of my own once that it was more of a "prophecy" type of steel, and that it was the weilder/owner that made it dragonsteel since it seems to be different from Valyrian steel, as you pointed out. So, more the person makes the steel, as opposed to the sword makes the person.

This is another excellent example of well thought out crackpottery. (yours, not mine)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

26 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Uum, when can we start calling your last piece of crackpottery thrown at us as more of a really possible theory???

I always wondered about that, too. That and what happens to the iron throne if the wildfire plot happens.

This is an awesome piece of clay you are throwing here for your crackpot. I can see the potential of at least some of this coming true in a way.

I especially love the Widoes Wail and Oathkeeper aspect. One of the best I've read so far. Heroes is correct.

I had a very teeny, tiny crackpot of my own once that it was more of a "prophecy" type of steel, and that it was the weilder/owner that made it dragonsteel since it seems to be different from Valyrian steel, as you pointed out. So, more the person makes the steel, as opposed to the sword makes the person.

This is another excellent example of well thought out crackpottery. (yours, not mine)

Not sure about that. Maybe we should take a poll?

Thank you. 

Yeah, that singular vs plural thing has been bugging me for a while. Glad I found a way to fix that.

Given that the Azor Ahai legend has the person literally making the sword, that's actually kind of deep. 

Thanks. I try.

 

[LynnS]

17 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I don't think Dawn is made of dragonbone, unless it's dragonbone that was majorly altered (so much so that it changed color) by magic. Even an albino dragon would still have black bones if the iron content was the same in them.

GRRM has said that dragonbone is not used in Valyrian Steel.

We know that the horn Mance found wasn't Joramun's. Tormund said so. But the possibility of it being a dragon binding horn is definitely intriguing. I wonder whether Jon would recognize Valyrian glyphs or if he would just think they were standard First Men runes. The gold bands should have been his first clue that it wasn't the Horn of Winter, which would have bronze bands.

The curious thing about iron ore is that it can be red, yellow, black or something called blue dust which is closer to white.

As for the horn that comes in Melisandre's possession; well, she knows all the tricks. For something as dangerous as the Horn of Winter; it's curious that she would claim the power to destroy it given her dependence on her powders and tricks of the trade.  But rather, she puts on quite a show with Stannis' sword and the horn; to made the claim that the horn was THE horn to impress the wildlings;  that she herself or her god is powerful enough to destroy it.  Nobody actually sees the horn destroyed; it's thrown into the fire almost immediately once she's finished with her pyroctechnic display.   A dragon binding horn at Castle Black might come in handy at some point.  

[Leo of House Cartel]

Nice work @Lady Blizzardborn, Im pretty sold on Dragon Bone being Dragon Steel.

Illyrio's status as a Dragon Bone dealer is intresting and I wonder how much he has studied the properties of his own product. If he can be considered a "dealer" then he must have, or once had, a decent amount of the stuff. Where did he get it from and why did he start this particular venture? I imagine other rich, fat cat types would happily pay a high price for such antiques, so there is the financial aspect. However considering Illyrio has spent years trying to restore a Dragon Dynasty, once had three Dragon Eggs,  and has a tearful fondness for the silver haired Aegon,  his connection to Dragon Bone could signify something altogether more magical.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

The curious thing about iron ore is that it can be red, yellow, black or something called blue dust which is closer to white.

As for the horn that comes in Melisandre's possession; well, she knows all the tricks. For something as dangerous as the Horn of Winter; it's curious that she would claim the power to destroy it given her dependence on her powders and tricks of the trade.  But rather, she puts on quite a show with Stannis' sword and the horn; to made the claim that the horn was THE horn to impress the wildlings;  that she herself or her god is powerful enough to destroy it.  Nobody actually sees the horn destroyed; it's thrown into the fire almost immediately once she's finished with her pyroctechnic display.   A dragon binding horn at Castle Black might come in handy at some point.  

I didn't know that about iron ore. I wonder if GRRM is aware of it. It's certainly been suggested that that the fallen star was actually a dragon, and thus Dawn was formed from a dragon's heart. Bones would work as well though considering we're 10,000 years down the road and the story has likely been "improved" since the original version.

Mel must not have known that some of the Wildlings knew it wasn't the real horn. If Tormund had that figured out, one or two others should have known, Val for instance. Most of them probably did think it was the real deal though. There seems to be differing levels of understanding and/or education in the Wildlings. Not a class system exactly, but definite differences between say Dalla and Osha.

Yes if dragon binding horns actually bind dragons, they could definitely use one at CB in the future.

3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Nice work @Lady Blizzardborn, Im pretty sold on Dragon Bone being Dragon Steel.

Illyrio's status as a Dragon Bone dealer is intresting and I wonder how much he has studied the properties of his own product. If he can be considered a "dealer" then he must have, or once had, a decent amount of the stuff. Where did he get it from and why did he start this particular venture? I imagine other rich, fat cat types would happily pay a high price for such antiques, so there is the financial aspect. However considering Illyrio has spent years trying to restore a Dragon Dynasty, once had three Dragon Eggs,  and has a tearful fondness for the silver haired Aegon,  his connection to Dragon Bone could signify something altogether more magical.

 

Thanks, Leo. It's not just the antique angle but the potential for residual magic as well. What else would make dragonbone bows better than goldenheart bows? The Dothraki in particular place high value on dragonbone bows. 

Illyrio definitely has more to him than is apparent on the surface. 

[hiemal]

You're not very good at this, are you?

You promise me crackpottery and offer rational and plausible theories.

Or is just that I already half agreed with this one, thinking of folks re-working dragonbone like the Daynes did their fallen star ever since I heard that GRRM had spake that dragonbone was not an ingredient in Valyrian steel?

[LynnS]

39 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I didn't know that about iron ore. I wonder if GRRM is aware of it. It's certainly been suggested that that the fallen star was actually a dragon, and thus Dawn was formed from a dragon's heart. Bones would work as well though considering we're 10,000 years down the road and the story has likely been "improved" since the original version.

Mel must not have known that some of the Wildlings knew it wasn't the real horn. If Tormund had that figured out, one or two others should have known, Val for instance. Most of them probably did think it was the real deal though. There seems to be differing levels of understanding and/or education in the Wildlings. Not a class system exactly, but definite differences between say Dalla and Osha.

Yes if dragon binding horns actually bind dragons, they could definitely use one at CB in the future.

I'm wondering about the whole forging business.  I'm inclined to think that forging a sword in the heart of something or someone is metaphor rather than literal. For example, forging a sword in the heart of a lion, might mean someone with strength, courage etc, worthy to to become the instrument or the sword. "I am the sword..." etc. etc.  Jon is the true sword and R'hllor's instrument. So I'm not sure that it's just about the actual sword that one has in their possession.  A Fallen Star might not be literally a fallen star but someone who qualifies as such.  Brienne of Evenfall for example or Jaime, or Tyrion.  A dragon could even be considered a red sword  for example and it's rider is the one wielding the sword/dragon. 

But yes, a dragon could be described that way as well.   I can't help thinking that the dawn sword is dragonbone and what's a dragonbinding horn doing beyond the Wall dug up from under a glacier no less?       

[ThePrinceThatKnewNothing]

This doesn't seem crackpot at all, I think you've sold me on dragonbone! Now if you could point me to anymore of your theories! 

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 3/31/2017 at 6:42 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I submit that dragonsteel refers to blades made out of dragonbone.

Possible, also, if the Iron in the steel came directly from dragon bones it would work to 

On 3/31/2017 at 11:40 PM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Dragonsteel . From a time were there is no dragons and steel haven't been invented yet . Crackpot / Tinfoil theory  . I am probably wrong but dragonsteel maybe another term for the Mesoamerican weapon Macuahuitl ( a wooden sword with a obsidian blades ).

Not dragonsteel, but lightbringer (if it ever was a real weapon) could have been made from dragonglass 

On 4/1/2017 at 6:53 AM, Damon_Tor said:

I've always felt that dragonbone was likely the source of Valyrian steel to begin with. Start with a dragonbone and super-heat it by some now unknown process then hammer it into a blade.

This

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

I'm not saying your theory is impossible, but in real life, it would not be practical to use a sword made out of bone to fight someone. Dragonbone may be "as strong" as steel, whatever the hell that means (we have no idea what specific metric they are going by). But barring magical properties (which it could admittedly have), bone cannot hold an edge. It may not crack or break, but it will become dull and dented fast. Additionally, as you pointed out, dragonbone is far more flexible than steel. This would actually be bad for a sword. You need a sword to have a certain amount of rigidity to be able to thrust through armor. Of course, if the sword had magical properties, that could all be irrelevant.

More importantly, I think the biggest crack in your pot is the whole idea of sacrificing a dragon for its bones. I love the idea in terms of what it would mean for Dany's character, and I think it is totally something GRRM would do, but I just can't see any good reason why a dragon's bones would ever be more useful in combat than the dragon itself.

[The Fattest Leech]

58 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I'm not saying your theory is impossible, but in real life, it would not be practical to use a sword made out of bone to fight someone. Dragonbone may be "as strong" as steel, whatever the hell that means (we have no idea what specific metric they are going by). But barring magical properties (which it could admittedly have), bone cannot hold an edge. It may not crack or break, but it will become dull and dented fast. Additionally, as you pointed out, dragonbone is far more flexible than steel. This would actually be bad for a sword. You need a sword to have a certain amount of rigidity to be able to thrust through armor. Of course, if the sword had magical properties, that could all be irrelevant.

More importantly, I think the biggest crack in your pot is the whole idea of sacrificing a dragon for its bones. I love the idea in terms of what it would mean for Dany's character, and I think it is totally something GRRM would do, but I just can't see any good reason why a dragon's bones would ever be more useful in combat than the dragon itself.

Apparently not

Spoiler

http://hellogiggles.com/this-gif-of-jon-snows-rubber-sword-on-game-of-thrones-will-ruin-you-for-life/

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

37 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Apparently not

  Reveal hidden contents

http://hellogiggles.com/this-gif-of-jon-snows-rubber-sword-on-game-of-thrones-will-ruin-you-for-life/

 

lol

personally, I think the term dragonsteel probably comes from the fact that he rode a dragon  

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 4/2/2017 at 1:32 PM, LynnS said:

I'm wondering about the whole forging business.  I'm inclined to think that forging a sword in the heart of something or someone is metaphor rather than literal. For example, forging a sword in the heart of a lion, might mean someone with strength, courage etc, worthy to to become the instrument or the sword. "I am the sword..." etc. etc.  Jon is the true sword and R'hllor's instrument. So I'm not sure that it's just about the actual sword that one has in their possession.  A Fallen Star might not be literally a fallen star but someone who qualifies as such.  Brienne of Evenfall for example or Jaime, or Tyrion.  A dragon could even be considered a red sword  for example and it's rider is the one wielding the sword/dragon. 

But yes, a dragon could be described that way as well.   I can't help thinking that the dawn sword is dragonbone and what's a dragonbinding horn doing beyond the Wall dug up from under a glacier no less?       

I think it's important to distinguish between forging and tempering. The tempering is part of the process but by the time you hit that, most of the forging work is done. Tempering a blade in water is par for the course. Tempering it in the heart of a lion is unique. Tempering it in the heart of your true love is...well the stuff of fantasy.

Dawn was said to be forged from the heart of a fallen star, not tempered in it. And since the equivalent would be a meteorite, there could well have been some kind of magical metal in the "heart" of it. I'm hoping the composition of Dawn will be revealed in the series.

Given that some of the Free Cities do end up going north of the Wall, for trading, slaving, etc, and that one Asshai'i cog was wrecked on the frozen shore, it's not entirely strange that something Valyrian could have ended up that far north. Of course it's far more fun if the dragonhorns predate Valyria and one was used during the Long Night. 

On 4/2/2017 at 1:49 PM, ThePrinceThatKnewNothing said:

This doesn't seem crackpot at all, I think you've sold me on dragonbone! Now if you could point me to anymore of your theories! 

Thank you, TPTKN. I'll be happy to send you links to my other theories. The first three are archived, and I'll be updating the Mance one this spring.

On 4/2/2017 at 2:37 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Possible, also, if the Iron in the steel came directly from dragon bones it would work to 

Not dragonsteel, but lightbringer (if it ever was a real weapon) could have been made from dragonglass 

This

Yes, but the First Men didn't know a thing about iron or steel. They used bronze for their weapons. Of course if Azor Ahai/Last Hero wasn't Westerosi, that opens up a lot of options but it also brings up more questions such as why didn't the First Men start importing iron or steel once they found out about it during the Long Night? It would have allowed them to give the Andals more of a fight later on.

Thanks Dorian Martell's son.

6 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I'm not saying your theory is impossible, but in real life, it would not be practical to use a sword made out of bone to fight someone. Dragonbone may be "as strong" as steel, whatever the hell that means (we have no idea what specific metric they are going by). But barring magical properties (which it could admittedly have), bone cannot hold an edge. It may not crack or break, but it will become dull and dented fast. Additionally, as you pointed out, dragonbone is far more flexible than steel. This would actually be bad for a sword. You need a sword to have a certain amount of rigidity to be able to thrust through armor. Of course, if the sword had magical properties, that could all be irrelevant.

More importantly, I think the biggest crack in your pot is the whole idea of sacrificing a dragon for its bones. I love the idea in terms of what it would mean for Dany's character, and I think it is totally something GRRM would do, but I just can't see any good reason why a dragon's bones would ever be more useful in combat than the dragon itself.

Yes, in real life it wouldn't work. But in real life we don't have dragons or Others. Real life bones don't have a high iron content and they're certainly not impervious to flame. The main reason I started thinking about this was having read that all the main mysteries of the series are set up in the first book. I just can't think of another reason for GRRM going to the trouble of mentioning all of this about dragonbone if it's not important, and since we know it's not an ingredient in VS, it's got to be something else.

I suppose the flexibility issue depends on how flexible the dragonbone is. If it's a matter of being somewhere between Stannis the iron and Renly the...what was he again?...it could still potentially work as a weapon.

The dragon sacrifice is more of a sub-theory really. At this point we don't know if dragons will be useful for fighting the Others. There's no question that they will be a massive advantage against the wights, but would they need all three for that? Also on the list of what we don't know is a ton about Lightbringer. We don't know if there ever was one, if there was if it was actually a sword, if so whether it still exists, if it still exists whether it will need to be reforged for reactivated somehow. On these subjects all we can do is guess.

Thank you for reading and commenting, 40 Thousand Skeletons.

On 4/2/2017 at 1:30 PM, hiemal said:

You're not very good at this, are you?

You promise me crackpottery and offer rational and plausible theories.

Or is just that I already half agreed with this one, thinking of folks re-working dragonbone like the Daynes did their fallen star ever since I heard that GRRM had spake that dragonbone was not an ingredient in Valyrian steel?

I almost missed this comment. No, sadly I am not as good at this as I used to be. This is sort of a pattern of mine. I once had a series of bad poetry written from the POV of Mr. Bingley from Pride & Prejudice, and I had to stop because people told me he was getting to be a good poet.

On the plus side, I've got some far less likely ideas, and some tiny ones that I probably won't develop much. Maybe those can help me got my crackpotting mojo back.

Yeah, could be that last part there. Thanks, hiemal.

5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Apparently not

  Hide contents

http://hellogiggles.com/this-gif-of-jon-snows-rubber-sword-on-game-of-thrones-will-ruin-you-for-life/

 

Wow. I hope they edited that out. Haven't seen Season 6 yet, but I'll be watching for that now.