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np1234

Gendry and the forging of a new lightbringer

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57 minutes ago, zandru said:

Sorry; too much tinfoil for me. That Gendry is preoccupied this one time that Brienne stops by doesn't mean he has given up eating; no chance that he's being nourished by looking at flames like Melisandre thinks she is. That he's busy out at the forge is more likely to mean the Brotherhood w/o Banners needs a lot of weapons and armor work done, he's their only smith, and possibly that they're continuing to expand their membership, not that Gentry's off forging himself a magical sword. And I'm constantly repelled by the obsession people have with slaughtering an innocent unsuspecting woman as a quenching vat.

Plus, Arya is Gendry's "great love"?? Come on. He regards her as both a little kid and a great lady. They get along, but he's not on her level in any sense of the word. You may have to come up with another way of killing her off.

I hope this is not judged "unsupportive" and thus unacceptable. Think of it as another opinion. And seriously - we need that next book!! (hear that, George??)

I know its unlikely. I thought a saw an interesting connection and decided to give share the idea. I actually thought the Jaime part would be the more tinfoily part. 

Iv always felt Arya will die in the story or at least have a very pessimistic fate. A child can't go through all she has been and go back to being the tomboy she once was. 

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3 minutes ago, np1234 said:

Iv always felt Arya will die in the story or at least have a very pessimistic fate. A child can't go through all she has been and go back to being the tomboy she once was. 

LOL, I'm genuinely impressed by the polarity of the expectations regarding Arya's future. As if, there's nothing in between, or alternative "bad"/sad endings - like, is there a reason why a child of Arya's experiences could not become a bitter misanthrope and still survive and even perhaps thrive at being such (sort of like Tywin did, or to a lesser extend, Barbrey Dustin)? Is there a rule saying that, in the end, only the good / "undamaged" people will remain and no new baddies will arise?

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24 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

s there a rule saying that, in the end, only the good / "undamaged" people will remain and no new baddies will arise?

The text so far suggests that it's the "damaged" people who are left to carry on. Which increases my optimism for Arya! (sigh)

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23 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

LOL, I'm genuinely impressed by the polarity of the expectations regarding Arya's future. As if, there's nothing in between, or alternative "bad"/sad endings - like, is there a reason why a child of Arya's experiences could not become a bitter misanthrope and still survive and even perhaps thrive at being such (sort of like Tywin did, or to a lesser extend, Barbrey Dustin)? Is there a rule saying that, in the end, only the good / "undamaged" people will remain and no new baddies will arise?

No I think many broken characters to put it will survive. I count Tyrion will survive, Sam will survive, Jon will survive (Even though he is dead at the moment) and the hound survive their journey's. I dont believe arya is safe just because she is a big 5 character as it is put.

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28 minutes ago, np1234 said:

[...] I dont believe arya is safe just because she is a big 5 character as it is put.

As a matter of fact, I don't believe that any of the big characters are guaranteed to survive past the series' end - they are safe until the final climax, but I believe we can count on the deaths of some of them, plural. I think Arya's ending is open to either direction. I just don't agree with the arguments that support the opinon that she *must* be one of them, or, worse, that death is the only bitter end a character can suffer.

 

ETA, the thing with her being a big character is not that she *must* survive in the end, but that her death *can't* serve to propel a minor character into protagonist out of leftfield. Because she's a big character, her death must be about her.

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Random thoughts with respect to deaths of the "big" characters...

Ned Stark's execution came as a real shock to me (and apparently several others). But it really set in motion the War of the 5 Kings, and has been a driving force in the plotline ever since.

Jon Snow's apparent death (last we saw, he was bleeding out in the snow) should have similar continent-wide repercussions, as Jon was the bridge between the wildlings and Westerosi, the one who truly comprehended the mortal threat of the Others not only humanity but also the giants and any remaining children of the forest. And we've guessed Jon's also Rhaegar's last surviving son (questions remain about Young Griff/Aegon). If Jon is gone, chances are that Arya learns of it before Sansa does, and Arya, unlike Sansa, is in a position to move and take action - violent, effective, highly trained action. Then there's the Night's Watch. The Boltons. Stannis. All a result of a major character being killed off.

Getting back to Gendry (who??) ... if ever there were a need for a new Azor Ahai or Prince that was Promised or whatever, this is it. Maybe some kind of "magic sword" is called for. But from the text, it seems less a matter of one hero with a wife-quenched blade than as many folks armed with Valerian steel and dragonglass: spears, arrows, even Aztec-type obsidian-studded wooden swords. Gendry's blacksmithing probably didn't prepare him to make stone-age stone weapons. And he's not yet that good in a fight; zero knight training, in spite of his honorific "ser."

So whatever Gendry is forging, it's most likely purely for local use in the Riverlands, against purely mortal foes. And it's totally incomprehensible that he would get a crazy, dumb idea of using a human being to quench a blade. That's just insane, as well as perverted and vicious.

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While I find it interesting that Gendry will forge Lightbringer 2.0, I can't help but wonder why everyone thinks that Arya will be Nissa Nissa.

Arya and Gendry were close, but they knew one another for just a few months and were not at all THAT close. I believe Arya thought of Gendry as more of a brother, specifically like Jon, who used to play with her and understood her better than any of her siblings. Gendry was similar to him.

To top it all off, Arya was only around 9-10 years old during this time. Arya was, and still is, a child and most likely doesn't understand the concept of True Love or even romantic love. At best, she understands small crushes and I don't think she had a crush on Gendry, because, again, she saw him as more of a brother.

 

Besides, we don't know what Gendry has been up to during the time we haven't seen him. He has been with the Brotherhood Without Banners, which is sheltering many people, including women and children. Who's to say that Gendry hasn't met a girl and fallen in love with her and she will be his Nissa Nissa? What if Gendry had sex with Bella and they've fallen in love now and Bella will be Nissa Nissa (again with the incest...)?

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21 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

we don't know what Gendry has been up to during the time we haven't seen him.

Indeed. Traveling with the Brotherhood, some of whom are notorious for their ... shall we say exploitation of women? ... and not above patronizing prostitutes, and being a young man, it's unlikely Gendry has remained virginal. Or "romantically" inclined. More love 'em and leave 'em, typical for the time and the signature of his (unknown) father. So much for the idea that Gendry has a "true love".

And what kind of "love" would it be when the dude will willingly and deliberately plunge a red-hot sword into her heart, simply to quench the steel?! Come on! The whole "Nissa Nissa" schtick is an offense, and I have difficulty believing that George RR is putting it out as a good model, much less some kind of necessity. It's more a tale of the depravity of tales of the old magic from Assha'i.

At the risk of being repetitively boring, I don't think one (1) single, individual man-hero and his one lone magic sword will solve the mortal threat of the Others.

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Why does everyone get offended that it could be a woman sacrifice to ignite lightbringer? Would it be less horrific if it was an innocent man?

My theory is that Dany will die as jons nissa Nissa but she'll have to trick him to kill her with gendrys reforged ICE. Then her last betrayal has her as the betrayer for love. 

I think thats exactly what will be needed, a single magic blade. I think the nights king will get his hands on something to level the playing field against the valyrian steel blades and one magic sword will be needed to finish him off.

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17 hours ago, Nezza86 said:

Why does everyone get offended that it could be a woman sacrifice to ignite lightbringer?

Far as I know, I'm the only one. Apparently, I'm pretty loud. For what it's worth, quenching a blade with ANY life is questionable, whether woman, man, or newborn babe that can be picked up in the bazaar for a few coppers. But apparently this "magic" thing is pretty ugly. No Harry Potters here!

Speculations about the Others and Night's King - yeah, there's a lot we don't know. We know nothing, Jon Snow. On the other hand, the whole concept of the One Big Hero is less true than an oversimplification, a conceit by the Great Singer-Industrial Complex whose goal is to flatter the winners; in this case, the top dog on the winning side. Witness "Robert's War" of which he seems to be an incidental cog, and the idea that rebellion against King Aerys Targaryon was driven entirely by Robert's great love for Lyanna and justifiable rage that she would elope --er, sorry, BE KIDNAPPED -- and raped; gotta add that one! -- by Aerys's son and heir. Romance! Revenge! That always sells.

So the story of Azor Ahai is probably in a similar vein, is my point. There was no One Big Hero; and if this dude actually quenched his blade in his "dear" wife's heart, it was most likely because she came out to the smithy one too many time to ask him why he was wasting so much time on just that one sword, and would he mind mucking out the stables for a change?

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18 hours ago, Nezza86 said:

Why does everyone get offended that it could be a woman sacrifice to ignite lightbringer?

For me it's not about genders, it's about a Big Five dying so a nobody becoming the ultimate hero.

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On 4/1/2017 at 1:41 PM, zandru said:

I've long thought that Dark Sister might be a good match with Arya. It was, after all, originally a woman's sword. Not that I expect it to happen; it would be too neat and sensible.

I like the Idea of Val ending up with Dark Sister. She is a younger sister and a mysterious "Dark" women know for her knowledge as a possible woods witch. especially if dark sister ended up in the north with Bloodraven

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Perhaps relevant to this topic:

If Gendry's parentage were known and acknowledged (perhaps via some paperwork Ned had Robert sign on the sly, as is sometimes suggested) his surname would be "Waters".

That said, I'm skeptical about Lightbringer as a literal sword. I generally prefer the idea that Lightbringer is (for some reason) Jaime Lannister himself. The three forgings of Lightbringer are the three sacrifices he needs to make, three things he needs to let go of: his children (again, their proper surname would also be "Waters") his identity as a Lannister and his love for his sister. This ties nicely with the linguistic clue:

Quote

The Valyrian words for gold and hand are aeksion and ondos, respectively. The Valyrian words for lord and light are aeksio and onos, respectively.

That's right - the Valyrian translations for Goldenhand and Lord of Light are nearly identical.

But then again, I have no idea what that even means. It's fully in keeping with GRRM's themes though.

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1 hour ago, House Beaudreau said:

I like the Idea of Val ending up with Dark Sister. She is a younger sister and a mysterious "Dark" women know for her knowledge as a possible woods witch. especially if dark sister ended up in the north with Bloodraven

There's no ruling out Val, but there is really no dark imagery associated with her (she has honey-blonde hair, she wears all white on at least one occasion, she is seen in the snow, etc.), and Visenya was actually an older sister, not younger.

 

As far as a Nissa Nissa-type sacrifice - frankly I find it difficult to expect any good to come of anything that requires the "hero" to give the life of someone else in advance. So Hero is "sacrificing" his/her greatest love? Why is this person's life Hero's to give?

To me, Nissa Nissa rings far too much like the Unsullied requirement of killing their puppies. It's not about creating Excalibur. It's about proving that you will do whatever your master requires of you. And that suggests that any Azor Ahai 2.0 is not such a good thing.

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27 minutes ago, Therae said:

There's no ruling out Val, but there is really no dark imagery associated with her (she has honey-blonde hair, she wears all white on at least one occasion, she is seen in the snow, etc.), and Visenya was actually an older sister, not younger.

 

good call on the younger sister, I was more implying that Val for the most part is defined as the sister.  We meet her as Dalla's sister, Jon identifies her as this for a while.

And the "Dark" thing more relates to her having some sort of Wildling Knowledge maybe woods witch stuff.   

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16 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Perhaps relevant to this topic:

If Gendry's parentage were known and acknowledged (perhaps via some paperwork Ned had Robert sign on the sly, as is sometimes suggested) his surname would be "Waters".

That said, I'm skeptical about Lightbringer as a literal sword. I generally prefer the idea that Lightbringer is (for some reason) Jaime Lannister himself. The three forgings of Lightbringer are the three sacrifices he needs to make, three things he needs to let go of: his children (again, their proper surname would also be "Waters") his identity as a Lannister and his love for his sister. This ties nicely with the linguistic clue:

But then again, I have no idea what that even means. It's fully in keeping with GRRM's themes though.

I like your take on Jaimes sacrifices, very clever. Id never thought of that actually. But I find it hard to rule out the flaming sword given that Beric Dondarrion fought the hound with one that he set on fire by cutting himself. And the fact that the story has a rare fireproof steel. But i agree that the Water-Lion-Nissa Nissa theme is present throughout the story without us realising it.

I think that they represent peoples deaths, water is Ned killed by Ice. The lion is Cersei and/orJaime killed by Oath Keeper and Widows Wail. Then once Sam Mel and Gendry get together to reforge OK and WW Jon will kill Dany with the reforged blade, or more accurately Dany will trick Jon into killing her partly so she can be with Drogo and partly because shell work out that Jon is Azor Ahai Reborn and not her.

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On 2.4.2017 at 10:47 PM, zandru said:

And what kind of "love" would it be when the dude will willingly and deliberately plunge a red-hot sword into her heart, simply to quench the steel?! Come on! The whole "Nissa Nissa" schtick is an offense, and I have difficulty believing that George RR is putting it out as a good model, much less some kind of necessity. It's more a tale of the depravity of tales of the old magic from Assha'i.

I always thought it fits in rather nicely with Maester Aemon's words to Jon:

So they will not love," the old man answered, "for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty. - AGOT Jon VIII

You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born. - ADWD Jon II

Not that I don't find it disgusting myself.

 

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