"Friend Zone" as Rape Culture and the Alpha\Beta Dichotomy

[DunderMifflin]

8 minutes ago, Tyria said:

Wow. Yeah, like this case. He was found with the woman half naked and passed out in the back of his cab, he had his pants down, had her DNA on him, had a history of complaints against him, and he was still found not guilty, because "the Crown failed to produce any evidence of lack of consent at any time" (she might have said yes before she passed out!).

Oh, if you didn't read the article, he was found with the woman by a police officer. And he still got away with it. That's some super serious justice right there.

Again, how is any other crime different? You can l ways find examples that are Like -wow they got away and there was all that evidence in that case- for any crime

[Week]

24 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Rape kits exist and they are allowed to be used in the conviction(as they should be)

As opposed to deeming rape kits as inadmissable, which would be closer to not taking it seriously.

http://www.endthebacklog.org/backlog/what-rape-kit-backlog

http://www.endthebacklog.org/backlog/where-backlog-exists-and-whats-happening-end-it (Many states with thousands untested)

You're welcome.

[DunderMifflin]

6 minutes ago, Week said:

http://www.endthebacklog.org/backlog/what-rape-kit-backlog

http://www.endthebacklog.org/backlog/where-backlog-exists-and-whats-happening-end-it (Many states with thousands untested)

You're welcome.

Already read both those before you even posted them. Me think though doth expect too much praise for spamming a couple of links.

[Week]

9 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Already read both those before you even posted them. Me think though doth expect too much praise for spamming a couple of links.

Already read them and came to this conclusion:

44 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Rape kits exist and they are allowed to be used in the conviction(as they should be)

As opposed to deeming rape kits as inadmissable, which would be closer to not taking it seriously.

Thousands of untested kits is not taking the problem seriously. 

(No praise requested and no praise (or decency) expected from you - thanks!)

[DunderMifflin]

Quote

 

I mean there are indeed serious problems within law enforcement about priorities. For example, the amount of resources spent on catching drug dealers make all other crimes including rape suffer from lack of resources.
I don't see how that makes it a distinctly an issue of not taking rape seriously

[The Anti-Targ]

4 hours ago, butterbumps! said:

I think the term "friendzone" is coded with an underlying idea of entitlement.   As I understand it, one uses that term to suggest that a party, usually male, was owed affection back by another party, usually female. 

Not every situation where one's affection goes unreturned is "friendzoning."   It's reserved for situations where it is presupposed that one of the parties should be returning the other's affections, that the other is entitled to it.   So presupposition of entitlement has everything to do with that particular term, as I understand.

Perhaps I've missed something in situations where I've observed it irl (which isn't often), but I've never got the sense that there is always or even typically a sense of entitlement associated with being in the friend zone. And I can't say seeing it in movies / TV shows clearly comes with that attitude on the part of the besotted one.

 

 

[The Anti-Targ]

45 minutes ago, Tyria said:

Wow. Yeah, like this case. He was found with the woman half naked and passed out in the back of his cab, he had his pants down, had her DNA on him, had a history of complaints against him, and he was still found not guilty, because "the Crown failed to produce any evidence of lack of consent at any time" (she might have said yes before she passed out!).

Oh, if you didn't read the article, he was found with the woman by a police officer. And he still got away with it. That's some super serious justice right there.

That's a law problem which creates a justice problem. The law should require that for sex not to be rape the victim needs to be in a continuous state of being able to give consent. If a person is passed out then consent should no longer be assumed, even if 1 minute prior the person said yes please.

It's that cup of tea situation, it still applies. You offer an extremely drunk woman a cup of tea, she says yes. You go to make the cup of tea, but by the time you are back with the cup of tea she is passed out. Do you force the tea down her throat because she said yes, or do you pour the tea down the kitchen sink. Clearly the answer is that you pour the tea down the kitchen sink.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 hours ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

Sorry as being unclear. I was just saying that nobody reacts to being rejected with as much dignity and grace as Scott suggests people should.

WWTR,

It hurts to be rejected.  I'm well aware.  I'm saying that looking back upon my experiences I think my life would have been much more satisfying if I hadn't placed so much of my self worth into the hands of other people.  I recognize the anger, because I felt it.  What I'm saying is it is a very selfish anger and acting upon it is unjustifiable.  People throwing out "friend zone" memes and complaining about women "manipulating them" are completely and utterly in the wrong.  

They control their actions even if they can't control their emotions.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

That's a law problem which creates a justice problem. The law should require that for sex not to be rape the victim needs to be in a continuous state of being able to give consent. If a person is passed out then consent should no longer be assumed, even if 1 minute prior the person said yes please.

It's that cup of tea situation, it still applies. You offer an extremely drunk woman a cup of tea, she says yes. You go to make the cup of tea, but by the time you are back with the cup of tea she is passed out. Do you force the tea down her throat because she said yes, or do you pour the tea down the kitchen sink. Clearly the answer is that you pour the tea down the kitchen sink.

Exactly.  

[Kalbear]

21 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Who here is denying the existence of Rape Culture?

Well, you certainly were denying actual evidence of it.

And to be really clear, defending Brock Turner's dad from defending his son makes zero sense when his claims are not that Turner is innocent, or that Turner is even a good kid - it's that what he did 'was just a few minutes of action'. The problem isn't that he's defending his son; the problem is that he equates rape with just getting off. 

Despite his son being found in the act by two witnesses who forcibly removed him.

The idea that rape is just a bit of fucking that went a little too far is part of the deal here.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

19 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Well, you certainly were denying actual evidence of it.

And to be really clear, defending Brock Turner's dad from defending his son makes zero sense when his claims are not that Turner is innocent, or that Turner is even a good kid - it's that what he did 'was just a few minutes of action'. The problem isn't that he's defending his son; the problem is that he equates rape with just getting off. 

Despite his son being found in the act by two witnesses who forcibly removed him.

The idea that rape is just a bit of fucking that went a little too far is part of the deal here.

No, I was pushing back against a couple of criticisms that I felt were a bit extreme. Turner's father's statement for example. I never denied that his statement was an example of Rape Culture, it clearly is. I just suggested that criticism of his position should be tempered given the circumstance. Parse it anyway you like, this is a parent who is attempting in some small way to defend his child. Again I'd say the real outrage here should be saved for the judge. If there is a larger example of Rape Culture in this particular case than a judge handing down a ridiculously light sentence, I don't see it. 

[Kalbear]

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Parse it anyway you like, this is a parent who is attempting in some small way to defend his child. 

By making rape seem like not a big deal. 

Imagine him saying that about a murder, or a kidnapping. Imagine him saying that about defrauding people out of a few million bucks. He didn't even say that what Turner did was wrong. 

Really, read this and tell me how this comes off. There is almost no mention of the victim, there's no stating that it's even rape at all, just 'the events of', and how this has wrecked his son's life and how bad that is. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

By making rape seem like not a big deal. 

Imagine him saying that about a murder, or a kidnapping. Imagine him saying that about defrauding people out of a few million bucks. He didn't even say that what Turner did was wrong. 

Really, read this and tell me how this comes off. There is almost no mention of the victim, there's no stating that it's even rape at all, just 'the events of', and how this has wrecked his son's life and how bad that is. 

Yeah, it doesn't sound good. I'm not defending the statement. I'm saying perhaps some small measure of understanding might be extended to him given the circumstance. I don't know about you, but in my book this sort of situation is on my Top Ten list of potential parental nightmares. To provide an anecdotal example that is nowhere near as extreme, I have a 16 year old son who is failing High School. He is a bright kid. Funny, sensitive, giving, a good kid by just about any standard you'd care to apply to a 16 year old. That said, he has driven me to near insanity with his lack of effort in regards to school. We've hired tutors, I've spent hours with him trying to insure that homework is done and he's on top of his projects. We've employed every measure of reward and punishment. We've spent money we don't have putting him in Slyvan programs, consulted with teachers and guidance counselors. I've even taken him on a tour of the local droput school, in an attempt to provide a Scared Straight sort of moment for him. As trying as all of this has been, throughout this whole process (and this really began in Junior High) I've made excuses for him. I've given him the benefit of the doubt way more times than was reasonable or constructive (in fact I'm sure my reactions have been part of the problem). I feel like I've failed him, despite the fact that he is at an age where he really needs to be held responsible for his own lack of effort. 

 This is what parents do. That it flies in the face of logic at times is practically guaranteed. 

[Kalbear]

I draw the line at attempting to excuse my son's rape when he was caught in the act. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

10 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I draw the line at attempting to excuse my son's rape when he was caught in the act. 

Walk a mile in a man's shoes, and all that.

I'd like to think that I'd jump in front of a train for my children, but one can never be sure until they are directly faced with that circumstance. 

[DunderMifflin]

15 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I draw the line at attempting to excuse my son's rape when he was caught in the act. 

Hopefully youll never have the chance to back that up.
Are you going to campaign to have your son punished to the fullest extent of the law?, or push for even harsher punishment?, or just be quiet and let justice take over? Because anything short of the same attitude for your kid as any other kid charged with rape can just as easily be accused of not caring enough about rape and contributing to rape culture.

[Swordfish]

49 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

By making rape seem like not a big deal. 

Imagine him saying that about a murder, or a kidnapping. Imagine him saying that about defrauding people out of a few million bucks. 

I think that's exactly the concern though.  because the same kind of defenses DO happen in those types of crimes as well.

I don't think you'd argue that we have a 'murder culture' or a 'fraud culture' or a 'kidnapping culture'?  Maybe you would.

So how do you differentiate what's part of the 'rape culture' and what's part of 'human nature when it comes to not wanting to get convicted of something'.

 

[Kalbear]

15 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Walk a mile in a man's shoes, and all that.

I'd like to think that I'd jump in front of a train for my children, but one can never be sure until they are directly faced with that circumstance. 

And you assume I haven't.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

16 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

And you assume I haven't.

I think it very likely that you are an exemplary parent, and I imagine you go to great lengths for your children. That said, are you saying you've dealt with a similar circumstance? If so, I would love to hear that story if you were willing to tell it.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I think it very likely that you are an exemplary parent, and I imagine you go to great lengths for your children. That said, are you saying you've dealt with a similar circumstance? If so, I would love to hear that story if you were willing to tell it.

I haven't dealt with any of my children committing a felony. Yet. The day ain't over.

I did deal with my best friend and his father committing felony kidnapping of a child, though. And his father didn't try to defend his son's actions or claim that they should give him leniency because he was a promising physicist in a grad program. Nor did I.