For the ones who dont like the idea of Arya ×gedry relationship

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

There are two ways Gendry could possibly become important.  One way would be to become some sort of military leader for the BwB or against the Others.  So far, though, I have seen little sign of any leadership abilities.  He is much more of a follower than a leader, and has consistently deferred to others to run things

Or he could become some sort of major smith.  However, when he left Tobho Mott's service he had yet to make a longsword out of ordinary steel, let alone work Valyrian Steel.  I find it very difficult that Tobho would train an apprentice in secrets such as the reworking of VS until he had shown a clear mastery of ordinary work, which he had yet to do.

My problem isn't with his birth, it's with his upbringing.   he has spent his life in Flea Bottom and a forge.  He has no education, no leadership training, no experience in a castle (outside of Harrenhal, which hardly counts).  His formative experiences are hugely different from Arya's.

As for getting anything because of his Baratheon birth, I doubt it.  I see no reason to give anyone anything based purely on birth, and that is all he has going for him at this point (and we're 5 books into a 7 book series, so I think much development has already happened).  If any Baratheon bastard is going to get anything, it will be Edric Storm, who has been acknowledged, brought up in a high lord's household, and has been shrink-wrapped and placed on a shelf for future use.  He is a known quantity,and is likely to be acceptable to the Storm Lords.

<snip

I take it you've never heard that you have to learn to follow before you can lead?

I didn't say Tobho had trained Gendry in reworking VS. Way to put words in my mouth there. If reworking VS needs to be done, Tobho is going to need help doing it.

He also has a shot at dragonriding, should he ever get the opportunity. He's got Targaryen blood and it's far more recent than what the Martells have.

Formative experiences do not dictate relationship success. People grow, people change, and the coming Long Night will be a great equalizer of sorts. 

You have been reading the series right? And you know it's set in a medieval society?

Technically, we're 4 books into a 6 book series, because 4 & 5 are one book split.

I like how you put that about the shrink-wrap and the shelf. But in this series anyone can die. Even Edric, who may end up on the throne, which would leave the Stormlands in need of another Baratheon. After fighting against the Others, the Stormlords and everyone else will have very different ideas about what and who is or is not acceptable. If Gendry steps up and helps save Westeros, he'll be accepted no matter his background.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

One thing I'd like to ask is; why do people think Gendry being a follower & not a leader is an obstacle to them having a romantic relationship?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

One thing I'd like to ask is; why do people think Gendry being a follower & not a leader is an obstacle to them having a romantic relationship?

I think there might be two reasons.

One, that Gendry himself, the character, seems to feel uncomfortable in such a position wrt Arya, mainly due to his social status, but still. It's notable that when he finds out who she is, there's a change of attitude from his part of the sort "a highborn lady shouldn't..." for things that apparently were just fine before (from funny stuff like pissing in front of her to more serious things). Readers often adopt the character's point of view, especially given that in their context it is the 'realistic' scenario.

Second, it might be the very uncomfortable yet not easily dismissable parallel that can be drawn with Nymeria's attitude, its significance in the behavioural model of wolf pack dynamics and its mythological association to Atalanta's myth, which suggest that there's a strong element of competition (for dominance) in a relationship, which must conclude in a certain way in order to pass to the next level, which is to create a family. In the books, the wildling custom of stealing the bride alludes to this myth. I hope, for apparent reasons, that GRRM does not plan too take that route with Arya.

 

ETA

Btw, Atalanta's myth (but with a different outcome) was also invoked in Brienne's story, where she successfully avoided marriage to the old idiot who threatened to "correct" her, by shaming him in the yard.

[blacken]

18 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The question was not why Gendry would save Arya, it's why would GRRM put them in that predicament. The same as why he is choosing to explore the class differential in these two characters. If you can't see the contrivances at play then there's really just no helping you.

GRRM said they'd meet again, that they were so young when they first met and that Arya will soon have her moonblood.

Not just replying to you but I couldn't be bothered to quote everyone

Honestly, part of my resistance to this narrative comes from having it shoved down my throat as a tomboy and a lesbian and as someone who generally thinks romance is shoehorned in to too many stories, it's entirely personal, but at least I recognize that my reading consists of what I bring to the table in addition to the text. It would be nice if other people acknowledged their own biases too. I'm not necessarily referring to you guys but a lot of fandom seem to just ignore that. YMMV is basically what I'm saying. Until its textual, I will happily ignore it.

 

Anyway I feel like my first point is the most relevant, which is that them getting together later on is too neat, contrived and fairytale for GRRM!

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

@The Weirwoods Eyes  Just wanted to know I've been enjoying reading your posts!  

I don't really understand people seeing Arya making a very conformist, class-conscious match later in life.  Arya from the first book shows herself to be more at ease with common people than anyone else of her own social class.  She's very anti class boundaries and does not give a whit for crossing those lines.  She has enormous empathy for them and she defends them when she sees unfairness.  She also insists to her father that "the woman is important too."  Her ability to make connections with just about anyone is a hallmark of her personality and that doesn't really change throughout her arc.  I can't see her radically changing or submitting to a cold, traditional marriage in the end.  

I think you were right to point out the parallels between Arya and Sansa in their sexual and romantic development.  Romance is not just a Sansa thing and we shouldn't take Arya's balking at the traditional romantic things to mean she doesn't have a soft, romantic streak.  It just presents itself differently than her sister.  Arya is not just a girl that loves swords and horseback riding.  She's also a girl (from GoT) that loves flowers.  She loves them so much she doesn't mind getting dirty, bruised, or covered in a rash to collect them and give them to her father.  If that doesn't scream being a "forest lass" from the song I don't know what is.  I do think the story mostly points to a future romance with Gendry (how that turns out, I don't know) as someone she chooses for herself and someone who likes her just as she is, dirt and all.  He already does.  I think he is hanging around the orphanage because he's hoping eventually Arya will turn up there.  He's literally waiting at a crossroad.            

I think George is deconstructing the trope of women as prizes and marriage pawns, not romance itself.  He's just not into the juvenile portrayals of love and sex that tend to dominate fantasy.  He's doing that by not shying away from the process of transitioning from childhood to womanhood in both sisters.  Both of them are getting glimpses of things they are attracted to and neither of those things are what society says a highborn lady should want.  They are both rebelling against tradition in their own ways.          

[Sea Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes  Just wanted to know I've been enjoying reading your posts!  

I don't really understand people seeing Arya making a very conformist, class-conscious match later in life.  Arya from the first book shows herself to be more at ease with common people than anyone else of her own social class.  She's very anti class boundaries and does not give a whit for crossing those lines.  She has enormous empathy for them and she defends them when she sees unfairness.  She also insists to her father that "the woman is important too."  Her ability to make connections with just about anyone is a hallmark of her personality and that doesn't really change throughout her arc.  I can't see her radically changing or submitting to a cold, traditional marriage in the end.  

I think you were right to point out the parallels between Arya and Sansa in their sexual and romantic development.  Romance is not just a Sansa thing and we shouldn't take Arya's balking at the traditional romantic things to mean she doesn't have a soft, romantic streak.  It just presents itself differently than her sister.  Arya is not just a girl that loves swords and horseback riding.  She's also a girl (from GoT) that loves flowers.  She loves them so much she doesn't mind getting dirty, bruised, or covered in a rash to collect them and give them to her father.  If that doesn't scream being a "forest lass" from the song I don't know what is.  I do think the story mostly points to a future romance with Gendry (how that turns out, I don't know) as someone she chooses for herself and someone who likes her just as she is, dirt and all.  He already does.  I think he is hanging around the orphanage because he's hoping eventually Arya will turn up there.  He's literally waiting at a crossroad.            

I think George is deconstructing the trope of women as prizes and marriage pawns, not romance itself.  He's just not into the juvenile portrayals of love and sex that tend to dominate fantasy.  He's doing that by not shying away from the process of transitioning from childhood to womanhood in both sisters.  Both of them are getting glimpses of things they are attracted to and neither of those things are what society says a highborn lady should want.  They are both rebelling against tradition in their own ways.          

I agree. Arya does not see class boundaries and Gendry was just raised to a knight, and they have the song together (a huge theme of the books), and Gendry was brave enough to take down the fake Hound when he saved Brienne at the orphanage. And the BWB are looking out for Arya in the RIverlands, so you know their paths will cross again soon. 

[Chris Mormont]

On 4/3/2017 at 1:56 PM, Chris Mormont said:

She looks upon Gendry as her equal in all things

When I said this, I did not mean to say they were or weren't equal, I meant it as the way Arya perceives people.  She does not determine a person's worth based on their family name or titles, she does not judge a book by it's cover. So for her she sees no difference between herself and Gendry, and she respects him because of what he has done along side her. She would have no respect for someone like Tommen because he has been so sheltered.  It is probably also why she gravitates towards Jon instead of Robb.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

21 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

When I said this, I did not mean to say they were or weren't equal, I meant it as the way Arya perceives people.  She does not determine a person's worth based on their family name or titles, she does not judge a book by it's cover. So for her she sees no difference between herself and Gendry, and she respects him because of what he has done along side her. She would have no respect for someone like Tommen because he has been so sheltered.  It is probably also why she gravitates towards Jon instead of Robb.

I disagree with both bolded claims.

First, she might think of Tommen as a child (that he is), as someone who knows less of life's realities than her, yes, because it's true after all, but to not respect him, because of what, living more of a normal child's life (well not exactly normal life, but normal comparatively to hers)? I don't think she's that shallow, no. I would expect her to have feelings similar to Sansa's wrt Margaery's cousins, "pity him, envy him". (ETA - she thinks "I was nine" about her first kill when Ned Dayne explains that he didn't kill anyone in the battle that he participated, as he is "only twelve", but we do not see her disrespect him for it or think less of him - she propably thinks less of herself and of what her parents would think of her...)

Second, where the hell does this come from? Jon was just as sheltered as Robb and it showed painfully at his first experiences at the Wall. The only thing that differenciated them in their upbringing was that Robb might feel the entitlement of the heir (still pretty grounded, I'd say) while Jon was well aware of his bastard status (though he was not aware of his privilege). No,it were other things that brought them together, like their common feeling of being outcast and, simply, the chemistry one may have with some person instead of another.

[Meera of Tarth]

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

@The Weirwoods Eyes  Just wanted to know I've been enjoying reading your posts!  

I don't really understand people seeing Arya making a very conformist, class-conscious match later in life.  Arya from the first book shows herself to be more at ease with common people than anyone else of her own social class.  She's very anti class boundaries and does not give a whit for crossing those lines.  She has enormous empathy for them and she defends them when she sees unfairness.  She also insists to her father that "the woman is important too."  Her ability to make connections with just about anyone is a hallmark of her personality and that doesn't really change throughout her arc.  I can't see her radically changing or submitting to a cold, traditional marriage in the end.  

I think you were right to point out the parallels between Arya and Sansa in their sexual and romantic development.  Romance is not just a Sansa thing and we shouldn't take Arya's balking at the traditional romantic things to mean she doesn't have a soft, romantic streak.  It just presents itself differently than her sister.  Arya is not just a girl that loves swords and horseback riding.  She's also a girl (from GoT) that loves flowers.  She loves them so much she doesn't mind getting dirty, bruised, or covered in a rash to collect them and give them to her father.  If that doesn't scream being a "forest lass" from the song I don't know what is.  I do think the story mostly points to a future romance with Gendry (how that turns out, I don't know) as someone she chooses for herself and someone who likes her just as she is, dirt and all.  He already does.  I think he is hanging around the orphanage because he's hoping eventually Arya will turn up there.  He's literally waiting at a crossroad.            

I think George is deconstructing the trope of women as prizes and marriage pawns, not romance itself.  He's just not into the juvenile portrayals of love and sex that tend to dominate fantasy.  He's doing that by not shying away from the process of transitioning from childhood to womanhood in both sisters.  Both of them are getting glimpses of things they are attracted to and neither of those things are what society says a highborn lady should want.  They are both rebelling against tradition in their own ways.          

I completely agree with your points.

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

First, she might think of Tommen as a child (that he is), as someone who knows less of life's realities than her, yes, because it's true after all, but to not respect him, because of what, living more of a normal child's life (well not exactly normal life, but normal comparatively to hers)? I don't think she's that shallow, no. I would expect her to have feelings similar to Sansa's wrt Margaery's cousins, "pity him, envy him". (ETA - she thinks "I was nine" about her first kill when Ned Dayne explains that he didn't kill anyone in the battle that he participated, as he is "only twelve", but we do not see her disrespect him for it or think less of him - she propably thinks less of herself and of what her parents would think of her...)

She seemed to get along and connect pretty well with Ned Dayne, in fact.  Tbh, I have an easier time imagining her with Ned Dayne or someone like him long-term than I do with Gendry.  I think they have more in common with respect to upbringing, education, general knowledge, and overall life experiences that Arya and Gendry have, as well as being closer in age.  In fact, the only thing Arya and Gendry have in common is their time in the Riverlands  and Harrenhal, and while that may be sufficient short-term, I have doubts that it would be the basis for any long-term connection.  

[ShadowCat Rivers]

15 minutes ago, Nevets said:

She seemed to get along and connect pretty well with Ned Dayne, in fact.  Tbh, I have an easier time imagining her with Ned Dayne or someone like him long-term than I do with Gendry.  I think they have more in common with respect to upbringing, education, general knowledge, and overall life experiences that Arya and Gendry have, as well as being closer in age.  In fact, the only thing Arya and Gendry have in common is their time in the Riverlands  and Harrenhal, and while that may be sufficient short-term, I have doubts that it would be the basis for any long-term connection.  

Well, for me long-term is very difficult to imagine for any of these kids, because, for one, kids do not really think long term when they fall in love (they may be mad in love for like two months and then nothing) and second, because too much depends on what mindset and situation the "ever after" time finds them. 

[Nevets]

4 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Well, for me long-term is very difficult to imagine for any of these kids, because, for one, kids do not really think long term when they fall in love (they may be mad in love for like two months and then nothing) and second, because too much depends on what mindset and situation the "ever after" time finds them. 

When I say long-term, I mean more than a few months and/or marriage.  I have a hard time seeing anything with Gendry being all that durable.  As for short-term, Gendry is one possibility among many, imo.  I have an easier time imagining Arya in a casual romantic relationship, that I do Sansa, for example.  I think she is sufficiently passionate and headstrong to do something like that without necessarily considering the potential consequences.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

28 minutes ago, Nevets said:

When I say long-term, I mean more than a few months and/or marriage.  I have a hard time seeing anything with Gendry being all that durable.  As for short-term, Gendry is one possibility among many, imo.  I have an easier time imagining Arya in a casual romantic relationship, that I do Sansa, for example.  I think she is sufficiently passionate and headstrong to do something like that without necessarily considering the potential consequences.

While I agree very much with the bolded, I'm not sure about the Arya, Sansa and casual relationships idea. For examble, Sansa was ready to accept that her mother loved someone else before her father and that such things are normal, love may end and people move on, while Arya was so upset by the idea that her father had another love interest before even meeting her mother, that she makes a fitting backstory for Cat of the Canals in Braavos. I think Arya has the setup for the two extremes, she'll be either entirely monogamous or all playful and I don't think it's settled which one she will be. (Though the direwolf imagery, if it's valid in this aspect, would point more to the monogamous sort.)

However, whatever it is, the good thing is that it will be entirely of her own choice. She'll take "you must" and "you mustn't" from no one. There will ne no authority over her.

[Nevets]

54 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

While I agree very much with the bolded, I'm not sure about the Arya, Sansa and casual relationships idea. For examble, Sansa was ready to accept that her mother loved someone else before her father and that such things are normal, love may end and people move on, while Arya was so upset by the idea that her father had another love interest before even meeting her mother, that she makes a fitting backstory for Cat of the Canals in Braavos. I think Arya has the setup for the two extremes, she'll be either entirely monogamous or all playful and I don't think it's settled which one she will be. (Though the direwolf imagery, if it's valid in this aspect, would point more to the monogamous sort.)

However, whatever it is, the good thing is that it will be entirely of her own choice. She'll take "you must" and "you mustn't" from no one. There will ne no authority over her.

I see Sansa as more thoughtful and deliberate in her actions, so that if she goes into something like a premarital relationship, it will be more of a deliberate choice, instead of something impulsive.  With regards to Arya, it is interesting to note that in the preview chapter

she seems to be exploring her sexuality and how to use it to her advantage.  

 Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it is interesting to note.

I absolutely agree that any such relationship will be entirely her choice and probably at her own initiative.  As for being told what to do, I think Jon is the only one who could tell her she needs to do something and even that would probably be in the form of a request and would be tailored to her sense of duty to family or Westeros as a whole.  And even then it would be her choice whether to go along or not.  Arya is her own person and will do things because she wants to or thinks it best.

[a black swan]

6 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I see Sansa as more thoughtful and deliberate in her actions, so that if she goes into something like a premarital relationship, it will be more of a deliberate choice, instead of something impulsive.  With regards to Arya, it is interesting to note that in the preview chapter

  Reveal hidden contents

she seems to be exploring her sexuality and how to use it to her advantage.  

 Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it is interesting to note.

I absolutely agree that any such relationship will be entirely her choice and probably at her own initiative.  As for being told what to do, I think Jon is the only one who could tell her she needs to do something and even that would probably be in the form of a request and would be tailored to her sense of duty to family or Westeros as a whole.  And even then it would be her choice whether to go along or not.  Arya is her own person and will do things because she wants to or thinks it best.

Do you think she capable of sacrificing her wants for a good enough reason? If it meant something to Jon or her wider family? 

[Nevets]

6 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

Do you think she capable of sacrificing her wants for a good enough reason? If it meant something to Jon or her wider family? 

I think it would very much depend on the request and the circumstances.   She seems to follow very much in her mother's footsteps, and remember that the Tully words are "Family, Duty, Honor".  While I can't imagine her, for example, marrying someone she dislikes or knows nothing about (or Jon telling her to in the first place), I can see her marrying someone who isn't her first choice, but still likes and respects, or perhaps giving up a pet project to do something more important.  

I am often reminded of Aemon's words to Jon : "kill the boy, and let the man be born." In Arya's case, that would be: "kill the girl, and let the lady be born."   She is still a girl now.  When she grows up, her priorities could easily change.

[chrisdaw]

17 hours ago, blacken said:

Anyway I feel like my first point is the most relevant, which is that them getting together later on is too neat, contrived and fairytale for GRRM!

It is the pinnacle of a point he has been harping on since the beginning of the text, a theme that has been intricately woven through Arya's arc.

The highborn are privilidged but for this privilidge comes sacrifices in the name of duty. The most prominent of these sacrifices is being unable to marry for love. Where the high marry for love the low generally suffer. Women very rarely are able to choose their husband.

Arya turned her nose up at the sacrifices and duty required of her privileged station. Arya has been victim and beared witness to atrocities which have at their root cause Cersei's refusal to sacrifice her love and do her duty.

In order to stop from reoccurring those atrocities Arya witnessed and fell victim to in the WOT5Ks Arya will need to do what Cersei did not, and sacrifice that which she holds dearest, which will be her freedom and love of Gendry.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

11 hours ago, DutchArya said:

Do you think she capable of sacrificing her wants for a good enough reason? If it meant something to Jon or her wider family? 

No, I think not. Arya has a very healthy sense of individuality, and while she'd put herself in all sorts of danger for those she loves, she wouldn't chose lifelong prison for their whim. Because yes, if people are not able to do what is beneficial for everyone, or make agreements and keep to them without fucking over a girl's (or a boy's) life then that's a whim of the worst kind.

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

No, I think not. Arya has a very healthy sense of individuality, and while she'd put herself in all sorts of danger for those she loves, she wouldn't chose lifelong prison for their whim. Because yes, if people are not able to do what is beneficial for everyone, or make agreements and keep to them without fucking over a girl's (or a boy's) life then that's a whim of the worst kind.

I agree, I don't think a whim would be enough for her to do what I described.

But if there was something of high importance, that she could rationalise as being vital to helping her family or people she cares about - she would do it, wouldn't you agree? Her own happiness is something she is willing to sacrifice if she has a bigger goal worth achieving.

That's what I think her arc is building up towards. Making her into someone who can survive living a life she would otherwise never want. Her ability to live a duality is something the KM sees in her and Arya does as well. Couple this with the fact that George is going to flip things on the head and will give the Stark kids a fate they never expected or wanted.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

38 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

I agree, I don't think a whim would be enough for her to do what I described.

But if there was something of high importance, that she could rationalise as being vital to helping her family or people she cares about - she would do it, wouldn't you agree? Her own happiness is something she is willing to sacrifice if she has a bigger goal worth achieving.

That's what I think her arc is building up towards. Making her into someone who can survive living a life she would otherwise never want. Her ability to live a duality is something the KM sees in her and Arya does as well. Couple this with the fact that George is going to flip things on the head and will give the Stark kids a fate they never expected or wanted.

I'm not sure I agree. What would be of higher importance than her father's, her sister's and her own life and freedom, both for themselves and for House Stark? Yet, I cannot ever imagine her agree or even tolerate the betrothal to Elmar Frey. And I'm not thinking of 10-year-old Arya, I'm thinking of any age Arya.