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np1234

Do the three heads of the dragon have to be dragon riders?

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I know theres a lot of different opinions on who are the three heads of the dragon. I believe the three heads are Dany, Aegon and Jon as they are three targaryen's but is there any text to support the idea that they or whoever the three heads are have to be dragon riders? So far I havent been able to find any.

We know Dany is a dragon rider so who are the other two? From what iv read and interrupted I thought the other two would be Bran and Euron but I never thought they would be one of the heads of the dragon.

All the characters that want to control the dragons seem to want to conquer westeros but the three heads of the dragon would form some sort of prophecy to lead the fight in the battle for the Dawn. In essence the three heads of the dragon will fight for humanity and the dragon riders will fight for themselves. 

Am I wrong to think this and I have I missed something? 

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I think the wonderfullness is that the text, wily GRRM, only provides a some hints. It's wide open to interpretation. The fandom has blown the hints out of all proportion, making "facts" out of their interpretations.

There's enough in the text to support the "three heads of the dragon" idea. Off the top of my head:

1) The Targaryen sigil, three-headed dragon (modelled after Aegon the Conqueror and his two sisters)

2) Dany's HOTU vision, Rheagar telling her there must be a third one.

3) Dany has three dragons. She can only ride one, so...

Damn, I wanted to end my argument elegantly with three points. But I'll make some further ones. I agree that the prophecy (whatever it was, we don't know, and I suspect Maester Aemon, Rheagar etc. didn't know everything) probably refers to the coming apocalyptic winter/Others. Dragons can burn wights enmasse (we know even ordinary fire destroys wights because Jon Snow burned the wight seeking to attack Jeor Mormont), even if they can't burn the Others (this is nowhere confirmed, just conjecture.) We know dragonglass/obsidian kills an Others (Hello, Sam! Hello mr Puddles!) So, dragons are a very useful weapon but maybe not the gamechanger?

As to the three dragons, mayhaps three riders...It'd just be stupid to have two riderless dragons knocking about. Chekov's dragons demand the two will be ridden. Or maybe GRRM will surprise us and Rheagal and Viserion will never be tamed and ridden (Dany will ride Drogon.)

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I think we need to consider what qualities make someone a head of a dragon. There have been many dragon riders. Clearly not all of them are three heads of the dragon. What unites these three heads? Is it kinship? 

Basically why is it three heads of a dragon and not three dragons? 

Would not the being three heads of  a dragon imply some kind of unity (as they are not three dragons). So how will that unity be?

Some Options

1) By blood? Aegon, Visenya et all were brother sisters

2) By marriage? Aegon, Visenya etc were married to each other.

3) Or is a wild goose chase. As in the three heads mean something like wolf, human, dragon. I think this option is false because Grrm had mentioned that the third head may not be a Targ.

Because there is only one dragon, but three heads, I dont think this has to do with dragonriding, but on  having at least one dragon(targ) involved, though it can be more. (Not three dragons / hence dragon riders) . Ie the minimum no of Targaryens involved is 1 and the maximum is three. Though I doubt it would be 3 as Grrm said third head may not be a Targ.

As three dragon riders is different from a single dragon which has three heads, I dont think dragon riding has much role to play here.

So for now I am expecting relatives who intermarry to be three heads of a dragon as marriage is supposed to unify people symbolically (blood also does of course)

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Could I love Daario? What would it mean, if I took him into my bed? Would that make him one of the heads of the dragon? Ser Jorah would be angry, she knew, but he was the one who’d said she had to take two husbands. Perhaps I should marry them both and be done with it. 

Dany is also taking the marriage approach to three heads of the dragon thing. She could be wrong, but I think it defo makes more sense than dragonriding being a tool to decide who the three heads of a dragon are. As there are not three separate dragons , but a single dragon  and marriage can unify symbolically (As mentioned in more detail in my above comment)

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I think that the author has said that the three dragons won't necessarily have a rider that is a Targaryen. I think he meant they won't have the name Targaryen, but will have the blood.

If there is another symbolic three headed dragon, then it could be anyone, but why have that when all you need is dragons to conquer and rule?

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I began to suspect that the 3 heads may be different from the dragonriders at the end of Dance when Dany decided that she’s a conqueror and not a ruler. I now think the 3 heads refers more to a governing body. Dany would obviously be the enforcer in a governing body. But the other 2 will have to fill in the gaps.

Just for example: Tyrion would be a strong addition. He’s an excellent strategizer and very knowledgeable about a great many things. But Tyrion and the new fire-and-blood-dragons-plant-no-trees-Dany are not great diplomats. Jaime is starting to show exceptional skill with diplomacy and I’m dying to see if he can sweet-talk Stoneheart. I think he can.

The other 2 dragon riders may become Dany’s bloodriders and back-up enforcers. Since she’ll have to conqueror a huge area to truly eradicate the very unruly slavers, she’ll need backup enforcers since she can only be one place at once.

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1 hour ago, Arya-Jon said:

I think we need to consider what qualities make someone a head of a dragon. There have been many dragon riders. Clearly not all of them are three heads of the dragon. What unites these three heads? Is it kinship? 

Basically why is it three heads of a dragon and not three dragons? 

Would not the being three heads of  a dragon imply some kind of unity (as they are not three dragons). So how will that unity be?

Some Options

1) By blood? Aegon, Visenya et all were brother sisters

2) By marriage? Aegon, Visenya etc were married to each other.

3) Or is a wild goose chase. As in the three heads mean something like wolf, human, dragon. I think this option is false because Grrm had mentioned that the third head may not be a Targ.

Because there is only one dragon, but three heads, I dont think this has to do with dragonriding, but on  having at least one dragon(targ) involved, though it can be more. (Not three dragons / hence dragon riders) . Ie the minimum no of Targaryens involved is 1 and the maximum is three. Though I doubt it would be 3 as Grrm said third head may not be a Targ.

As three dragon riders is different from a single dragon which has three heads, I dont think dragon riding has much role to play here.

So for now I am expecting relatives who intermarry to be three heads of a dragon as marriage is supposed to unify people symbolically (blood also does of course)

Arya will either...

a) marry Dany

B) MARRY JON. (King in the North and rightful heir to the Iron Throne (assuming RLJ))

BOOM! Arya is a queen and dragonrider and the third head of the dragon! hahaha!

Sorry to be facetous, just teasing you a bit. ;-)

Anyway, I like your left-field thinking in that it's not necessarily 3 Targ siblings/cousins. It opens up possibilities that we should explore.

ATM, I still believe in the books expressed "fact" that you need a drop of dragonblood to befriend and perhaps ride a dragon. Think of Brown Ben Plum. Think of poor Quentyn, who was getting along just fine with Viserion before Rhaegal crisped him. Think of the "dragonseeds" during the Dance of the Dragons who claimed (untamed) dragons... Nettles maybe got her dragon by just being a good animal husbander.

You see where this is going, right? Tyrion. Not necessarily having any drops of Targ blood but knowledge of dragons, husbanding one? This would get us out of the A+J=T theories that I dislike. Tyrion clearly is foreshadowed as a dragon person since AGOT.

I like the idea of "unity" about the three heads of the dragon. However, in the books we're given ample evidence of three actual dragons making up that "unity". Three riders (Aegon/Balerion, Visenya/Vhagar, Rhaenys/Meraxes) but that doesn't mean it has to play out that way.

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1 minute ago, talvikorppi said:

Arya will either...

a) marry Dany

B) MARRY JON. (King in the North and rightful heir to the Iron Throne (assuming RLJ))

BOOM! Arya is a queen and dragonrider and the third head of the dragon! hahaha!

Sorry to be facetous, just teasing you a bit. ;-)

Anyway, I like your left-field thinking in that it's not necessarily 3 Targ siblings/cousins. It opens up possibilities that we should explore.

ATM, I still believe in the books expressed "fact" that you need a drop of dragonblood to befriend and perhaps ride a dragon. Think of Brown Ben Plum. Think of poor Quentyn, who was getting along just fine with Viserion before Rhaegal crisped him. Think of the "dragonseeds" during the Dance of the Dragons who claimed (untamed) dragons... Nettles maybe got her dragon by just being a good animal husbander.

You see where this is going, right? Tyrion. Not necessarily having any drops of Targ blood but knowledge of dragons, husbanding one? This would get us out of the A+J=T theories that I dislike. Tyrion clearly is foreshadowed as a dragon person since AGOT.

I like the idea of "unity" about the three heads of the dragon. However, in the books we're given ample evidence of three actual dragons making up that "unity". Three riders (Aegon/Balerion, Visenya/Vhagar, Rhaenys/Meraxes) but that doesn't mean it has to play out that way.

I dont think Arya will be a dragon rider. If she rides anyone it will be Rhaegal (green bronze has some connection to Starks) If there are more than one dragon rider (other than Dany). Tyrion is certainly one of those.

Now there is mention of her wanting to fly or getting friendly with dragons. But that can just as well mean liking Dany. Flying could also mean many things

So I am sure about who two riders will be-Tyrion and Dany 

. Between Jon , Arya and Bran, I am not so sure. Though it should be Jon if blood is the criteria. But I dont know whether he is interested in flying (has had no flying dreams which I would expect). He seeks a dragon or 2 at the wall. But even there he does not visualize himself flying it.

But as I am not reliant on the belief that there have to be three dragon riders, one dragon could as well die midfight and no one will ride it. I just dont think dragon riding is a convincing explanation for being three heads of the dragon.

I also think that there will be some conflict between Dany and Tyrion where they will if I may use the word get estranged before the series ends. (Ie some situation of Tyrion being friend zoned/ignored may create conflict later as the series progresses)

So the idea of Tyrion as a head of a dragon is not something I believe. Though I do consider him a dragon rider (Much higher possibility than either Arya or Jon). Maybe taking the dragon would be at the route of the conlict. Quaithe had clearly warned against trusting the lion. Remember prophesy. Soon comes the pale mare.....

I know abt the sigil. But what came first , the sigil or the prophesy. Common sense dictates that three heads the dragon has is different from "there are three dragons/dragonriders"

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, np1234 said:

I know theres a lot of different opinions on who are the three heads of the dragon. I believe the three heads are Dany, Aegon and Jon as they are three targaryen's but is there any text to support the idea that they or whoever the three heads are have to be dragon riders? So far I havent been able to find any.

We know Dany is a dragon rider so who are the other two? From what iv read and interrupted I thought the other two would be Bran and Euron but I never thought they would be one of the heads of the dragon.

All the characters that want to control the dragons seem to want to conquer westeros but the three heads of the dragon would form some sort of prophecy to lead the fight in the battle for the Dawn. In essence the three heads of the dragon will fight for humanity and the dragon riders will fight for themselves. 

Am I wrong to think this and I have I missed something? 

"The dragon must have three heads" meant House Targaryen must have three leaders.  

Dragon - house Targaryen.  

Heads - leaders.

Rhaegar didn't envision the dragons ever coming back.  He was just interpreting the prophecies incorrectly.  He thought he was the special one who would bring his family back to their former glory.  

"He already has a song.  His is the song of ice and fire"

The above quote should tell us that Rhaegar believed he already had the song of ice and fire and it belonged to Aegon.  Fanciful talk from Rheagar basically.

All three of the leaders must be Targaryen, otherwise the term loses its meaning.  There are two possibilities as far as riding dragons is concerned.

  1. Daenerys, Targ 2, and Targ 3 are the riders.  Dany on Drogon, and the other two on Viserion and Rhaegal.  Do you believe Dany would allow anyone not loyal to House Targaryen to ride her dragons?  I don't.  
  2.  Targ 2 and Targ 3 will not ride but will be very valuable in rebuilding House Targaryen.  Each will have a role to play.  

I do not see how a non Targaryen can be one of the heads.  To use an example:  it makes no sense for Arriane Martell to be one of the dragon heads and be represented on the house banner.  

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There are only 3 Targs that we know of: Dany, Jon and Aegon (sort-of), and only 3 who are set up to have a big impact on the story, unless you consider secret Targs.

It's highly unlikely that Dany, Jon, and Aegon all make it to the end of the series alive, so all 3 heads being Targ seems quite unlikely for the long-term unless there's a major character (or 2, or 3) who is a secret Targ who will play back-up to any who don't survive.

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5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

There are only 3 Targs that we know of: Dany, Jon and Aegon (sort-of), and only 3 who are set up to have a big impact on the story, unless you consider secret Targs.

It's highly unlikely that Dany, Jon, and Aegon all make it to the end of the series alive, so all 3 heads being Targ seems quite unlikely for the long-term unless there's a major character (or 2, or 3) who is a secret Targ who will play back-up to any who don't survive.

One of the boys will die.  I will bet it's the boy riding Rhaegal.   Just as Aegon lost one of his girls, Dany will lose one of her boys.  She's the lead dragon riding Drogon.  Drogon is the physical reincarnation of Balerion. 

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HAVE to? No. But it's likely that they will be. 

And remember kids, that dragonriders can die while the dragons live on. So while there are only three heads of the dragon, we could see more than three dragonriders.

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Why not King Stannis? If the dragons liked Brown Ben Plumm because he had a "drop" of dragon's blood then why can't one of the dragons take to Stannis who has way more then "a drop" a  Targaryen/dragon's blood? Orys was half Targayen and Stannis' grandmother was a Targaryen. Other Targaryen Princesses married into the Baratheon line and if you subscribe to the theory that Targaryen women have a stronger chance of passing the dragon riding gene then the men of House Targaryen do then why can't Stannis have enough dragon's blood to ride a dragon? Also their is some foreshadowing Stannis may ride a dragon who is injured and has trouble flying like his goshawk "Proudwing."  Perhaps Viserion will get injured and Stannis will tend to him then becomes it's rider. I bet Robert would really spin in his grave if that happens.

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1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Why not King Stannis? If the dragons liked Brown Ben Plumm because he had a "drop" of dragon's blood then why can't one of the dragons take to Stannis who has way more then "a drop" a  Targaryen/dragon's blood? Orys was half Targayen and Stannis' grandmother was a Targaryen. Other Targaryen Princesses married into the Baratheon line and if you subscribe to the theory that Targaryen women have a stronger chance of passing the dragon riding gene then the men of House Targaryen do then why can't Stannis have enough dragon's blood to ride a dragon? Also their is some foreshadowing Stannis may ride a dragon who is injured and has trouble flying like his goshawk "Proudwing."  Perhaps Viserion will get injured and Stannis will tend to him then becomes it's rider. I bet Robert would really spin in his grave if that happens.

We dont know about Orys. That was a rumor. So let's leave it out. Besides which he's so many generations back it would hardly matter.

Rhaelle on the other hand is Stannis' grandma. THAT is important. I think most people think Stannis will be dead before the dragons arrive.

But...we also have Robert's bastards. Of them Mya and Gendry are most likely to try and ride the dragons. Bella wouldn't try it, and Edric is probably not going to get the chance. I could absolutely see Mya giving it a go if someone tells her Robert was her father. And I could see Gendry trying it and being a modern Hugh Hammer type guy, but without the vile betrayal part.

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Responding to the title of the topic, I think good arguments can be made either way. I prefer the arguments suggesting that riding a dragon is not the same thing as being one of the three heads heads of the dragon that the vision of Rhaegar told Daenerys about. 

Rhaegar's statement, "His is the song of ice and fire," hinted that his son (actually Jon, not Aegon) is the prince that was promised, his statement, "The dragon has three heads," hinted that two more Targaryens would be revealed, Aegon (who is actually a Blackfyre, not a Targaryen), and Jon who is yet to be revealed.

Quote

Three-headed Trios has that tower with three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don’t know what the middle head’s supposed to do.

Daenerys (the Targaren babe on the black dragon) was the first head. Aegon (like the leader of the greens who tried to steal the last Targaryen queen regnant's throne) is the second. Jon (a blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice) will be the third. 

Quote

“Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black,” Patchface sang somewhere."

 

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Even I don't believe that the 3 headed dragon is three different people I will try to answer it.

I think a more importand question from who the dragon riders will be is how many dragon riders will be. There is a very big chance that at least one dragon will die in Essos and another one before the Battle for the Dawn 2.0.

19 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Drogon is the physical reincarnation of Balerion. 

There is no proof about that. People have called him that but doesn't mean that it is true.

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On 4/5/2017 at 6:21 AM, np1234 said:

I know theres a lot of different opinions on who are the three heads of the dragon. I believe the three heads are Dany, Aegon and Jon as they are three targaryen's but is there any text to support the idea that they or whoever the three heads are have to be dragon riders? So far I havent been able to find any.

We know Dany is a dragon rider so who are the other two? From what iv read and interrupted I thought the other two would be Bran and Euron but I never thought they would be one of the heads of the dragon.

All the characters that want to control the dragons seem to want to conquer westeros but the three heads of the dragon would form some sort of prophecy to lead the fight in the battle for the Dawn. In essence the three heads of the dragon will fight for humanity and the dragon riders will fight for themselves. 

Am I wrong to think this and I have I missed something? 

I am sure that I am not the first person to think of this. I like your point about the heads being plural and the dragon being singular. The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler. The Valyrian Sphinx is two parts; usually a dragon body and human head. What does that mean? Dragon thinking like a man? Man acting like a dragon? Is that one head or two? How could that be three?

I think it is important to note that Aegon the Conqueror was not the prince that was promised. But he and his sisters are a red herring for the three-headed dragon. Rhaegar was wrong, but at lease he was interpreting something. He knew of the Song of Ice and Fire.

Now, multiple heads on a single dragon. If you consider a dragon; you’ve got your wings, your feet, your tail, your body, your head. Great. That’s one. If you toss a person on top of that living doom of a creature, then you are looking at a second head. Hooray. That’s two. If you add a person into that dragon’s head (not the stomach), then Bob’s your uncle because you’ve got yourself three heads.

If it’s all related to this story they call the Song of Ice and Fire, then you would think that you’ve got a sort of spectrum. Hot, cold, goldilocks. A dragon is pretty clearly fire, a Stark would be a good representation of ice, and if R+L=J then R+L=G(oldilocks). So, we’ve got a demon beast of destruction, an omnipotent kid underground, and that just right combination of the two riding around as the face man for the troops. I promise, I would name that face a prince and follow him and his wargon.

 

I think if someone would ever tell Sam or Tyrion to look into the Song of Ice and Fire we would find out much more. Tyrion is my current favorite to discover the song and its meaning.

 

Please note, this is all just a theory. Additionally, I do not believe riding a dragon necessarily has any influence on being part of the three (hence, Dany).

 

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14 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

We dont know about Orys. That was a rumor. So let's leave it out. Besides which he's so many generations back it would hardly matter.

Rhaelle on the other hand is Stannis' grandma. THAT is important. I think most people think Stannis will be dead before the dragons arrive.

But...we also have Robert's bastards. Of them Mya and Gendry are most likely to try and ride the dragons. Bella wouldn't try it, and Edric is probably not going to get the chance. I could absolutely see Mya giving it a go if someone tells her Robert was her father. And I could see Gendry trying it and being a modern Hugh Hammer type guy, but without the vile betrayal part.

So Stannis gets cheated out of Storm's End, arguably the Iron Throne and a dragon? If Stannis or Shireen can't have a dragon then I hope none of the Baratheon bastards will.

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2 minutes ago, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

R+L=G(oldilocks).

If you mean that Dany was Rhaegar and Lyanna's daughter is impossible since by the time of Dany's birth Lyanna was already dead for more than 7-8 months.

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I'm pretty sure Bran is going to skinchange a dragon.  It's also the ultimate unification of fire and ice.  My bittersweet ending:  Bran and Drogon the naughty boys going out together in a blaze of glory.

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