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NBA 2017: Playoffs? Playoffs?!


Relic

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2 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I don't agree with this at all. One, as @DunderMifflin pointed out, if those players from the 80's had the same medicine, regimines, etc that they have now, they would benefit the same.

My argument is the league is different, therefore scoring is up and defensive aren't allowed to hand check and a host of other tactics that made scoring harder. Could you imagine the #'s Jordan would put up in his prime with the way the game is played today? And, can't buy into the argument that players are stronger and faster, if so, it's minimal. The only thing that has changed the game is the rule changes.

And if the players today got to use the rules from the '80s, their defense would also benefit. So its a wash there at worst. Can you imagine the blocks and steals LeBron and Kawhi Leonard would get under the old rules?

And the players are absolutely stronger and faster. Go back and watch some of the old games and compare them to today. Its the same thing going on in all pro sports; basketball isn't uniquely not affected by it. .

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11 hours ago, Relic said:

So, in your mind, does this change anything re: the MVP?

I loved those Knicks/Heat battles haha. I used to get tickets to all NYC sporting events back then, so I was actually at the Van Gundy leg game, and later LJ's 4 Point play (greatest sports moment of my life). Gotta respect the Bucks for scraping hard. 

Not massively because by season's end I was going to give it to Westbrook. :P Halfway through the season, thought it was definitely Harden...then his big efficiency lead over Westbrook tailed off and Russ went nuclear the last few weeks of the regular season. For me it was a virtual tie that I was giving to Westbrook because of all his cinematic game winners and games he singlehandedly willed OKC to victory. 

After 4 games of this series, it's not a tie for me anymore. I mean the corpse of Nene is now out there winning games on a day Harden can't make a 3.  

Not to mention Westbrook put up a 35/14/14 and was +14. Astoundingly Norris Cole, his backup PG, comes in for 9 minutes and is -18. 9 minutes! WTF?! This first round matchup was always going to be a verdict on the MVP race. Russ is almost definitely going to lose the series but in the process is going to convince many, like me, that he's the clear MVP. 

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59 minutes ago, Fez said:

And if the players today got to use the rules from the '80s, their defense would also benefit. So its a wash there at worst. Can you imagine the blocks and steals LeBron and Kawhi Leonard would get under the old rules?

And the players are absolutely stronger and faster. Go back and watch some of the old games and compare them to today. Its the same thing going on in all pro sports; basketball isn't uniquely not affected by it. .

Right, I agree it's a wash. Hell, you can make a case that the league is watered down today because of more team. But, my original argument stands. The league is not more talented than it was in the 80's and 90's. I'll give you that they might be bigger and stronger, but that's would be minimal. My point was if players such as Jordan, Bird, Magic, Isaiah (The original one) and many more could play in today's game there numbers would be inflated. Your telling me Jordan couldn't compete and be the most dominate player in today's game at his prime? I'd say he'd be virtually unstoppable. Hell, they had to revert to gang tactics to have a shot to beat him, and the fucked up thing is it was allowed. Nah, the league isn't more talented today, people just have a very short memory.

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4 hours ago, Jaime L said:

Not massively because by season's end I was going to give it to Westbrook. :P Halfway through the season, thought it was definitely Harden...then his big efficiency lead over Westbrook tailed off and Russ went nuclear the last few weeks of the regular season. For me it was a virtual tie that I was giving to Westbrook because of all his cinematic game winners and games he singlehandedly willed OKC to victory. 

After 4 games of this series, it's not a tie for me anymore. I mean the corpse of Nene is now out there winning games on a day Harden can't make a 3.  

Not to mention Westbrook put up a 35/14/14 and was +14. Astoundingly Norris Cole, his backup PG, comes in for 9 minutes and is -18. 9 minutes! WTF?! This first round matchup was always going to be a verdict on the MVP race. Russ is almost definitely going to lose the series but in the process is going to convince many, like me, that he's the clear MVP. 

 

In the game where Russ went for the 50 point triple double and was ripped on for his bad 4th quarter, Russ was +11 in the game. The backup PG in that game, Semaj Christon, went -15 in 7 minutes. It's just comical.

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15 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Right, I agree it's a wash. Hell, you can make a case that the league is watered down today because of more team. But, my original argument stands. The league is not more talented than it was in the 80's and 90's. I'll give you that they might be bigger and stronger, but that's would be minimal. My point was if players such as Jordan, Bird, Magic, Isaiah (The original one) and many more could play in today's game there numbers would be inflated. Your telling me Jordan couldn't compete and be the most dominate player in today's game at his prime? I'd say he'd be virtually unstoppable. Hell, they had to revert to gang tactics to have a shot to beat him, and the fucked up thing is it was allowed. Nah, the league isn't more talented today, people just have a very short memory.

If we assume that the stars of the 60s or 90s or whenever had access to modern training, nutrition, etc, then they would still be stars, that's true.  It's impossible to say whether Jordan, if he were born in 1985, would be more or less dominant than Lebron, you can make that argument both ways.

But you can't argue that the league was as athletic in the 60s or 80s as it is today.  Basketball is a much higher profile sport now, both nationally and internationally, compared to what it was back then.  The result is that virtually any young man over 6-4 in virtually any country in the world is going to give basketball a try, and if he's good he'll stick with it.  The league has more players who are taller and more athletic than it ever has before.  This isn't just improved training/nutrition, it is also just the result of casting a global net for basketball talent. 

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Well, I never mentioned the 60's, I don't think there is an argument to be made there. In my mind, and you don't have to agree with me, the talent level from the 80's to now isn't that different. I argue that rules changes have aides in higher scoring and if those rule changes never came about, Steph would be getting hand checked at half court. The game was more physical back then, there is no denying it. Only with the rule changes has the athleticism been able to shine, hence increase in scoring and a multitude of other things. If you don't think Jordan would be as dominate, or even more so in today's game, I say you have a short memory. Or, never watched Jordan when he was a freak athlete on par with any of the freaks of today's game. Your fooling yourself. 

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43 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Well, I never mentioned the 60's, I don't think there is an argument to be made there. In my mind, and you don't have to agree with me, the talent level from the 80's to now isn't that different. I argue that rules changes have aides in higher scoring and if those rule changes never came about, Steph would be getting hand checked at half court. The game was more physical back then, there is no denying it. Only with the rule changes has the athleticism been able to shine, hence increase in scoring and a multitude of other things. If you don't think Jordan would be as dominate, or even more so in today's game, I say you have a short memory. Or, never watched Jordan when he was a freak athlete on par with any of the freaks of today's game. Your fooling yourself. 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1987.html

 

Scoring was MUCH higher in the 1980s than it is today. The decrease in scoring came in the late 90s, early 2000s, when the talent level in the league was way down. The talent level is up again, and that's why you're seeing an increase in scoring again.

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3 hours ago, sperry said:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1987.html

 

Scoring was MUCH higher in the 1980s than it is today. The decrease in scoring came in the late 90s, early 2000s, when the talent level in the league was way down. The talent level is up again, and that's why you're seeing an increase in scoring again.

The differences are mostly due to the changes in pace and the much higher use of 3 pointers these days.

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Was worried about mental lapses from the Wizards against a team like Atlanta that will never stop grinding. Coming back home for a must win game 5 will be a great test of this team's mental toughness. This team has yet to win a playoff series where they couldn't just overwhelm an opponent with shock and awe. They still have more top level talent. Time to see how far they've come. 

Unrelated, I can't decide who I loathe the most: Schroeder, Millsap or Calderon. Probably that little preening POS Calderon. If Gortat were to clothesline him, show me the ref who'd call a flagrant? 

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13 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

Unrelated, I can't decide who I loathe the most: Schroeder, Millsap or Calderon. Probably that little preening POS Calderon. If Gortat were to clothesline him, show me the ref who'd call a flagrant? 

If he had money on the game? THIS GUY.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Donaghy

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If you guys are going to assess how different players would do in different eras, it's important that you factor in everything that's been brought up and in more detail. All the benefits of sports science, i.e. advances in medicine and surgeries, nutrition, strength and conditioning, custom orthotics and equipment, then how the new rules totally changed the game and how the new math of the NBA over values the three pointer. There's little benefit in trying to isolate just one of these things to guess how different players would do in different eras.

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19 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

If you guys are going to assess how different players would do in different eras, it's important that you factor in everything that's been brought up and in more detail. All the benefits of sports science, i.e. advances in medicine and surgeries, nutrition, strength and conditioning, custom orthotics and equipment, then how the new rules totally changed the game and how the new math of the NBA over values the three pointer. There's little benefit in trying to isolate just one of these things to guess how different players would do in different eras.

That was never my intention though. My point is merely that this current era is the most talented in NBA history, for a wide variety of factors. Yes, those factors would benefit players from other eras if they had access to them; but that only further serves the point. And on top of that, the current players (who know how to play defense at least) would be even better than they are now if they access to the rules from earlier eras. They benefit on both ends from the comparison.

This doesn't change the fact that Jordan is the GOAT, or the historical rankings of the other all-timers. It speaks to how truly great they were that they were able to overcome the limitations of the era. However, the average-to-good player in the past was not nearly as good as the current average-to-good player. And its more than just that; there are more starter-on-a-championship-team quality point guards in the league than there are positions for them, and its been that way for several years now.

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25 minutes ago, Fez said:

This doesn't change the fact that Jordan is the GOAT, or the historical rankings of the other all-timers. It speaks to how truly great they were that they were able to overcome the limitations of the era. However, the average-to-good player in the past was not nearly as good as the current average-to-good player. And its more than just that; there are more starter-on-a-championship-team quality point guards in the league than there are positions for them, and its been that way for several years now.

I agree with this, and it ties into my point which is that the depth of talent in the NBA has never been better.  Virtually every team in the NBA has at least one, if not several, international players starting.  That wasn't the case in the 90s and earlier.  There are a lot of guys that would be starters in the NBA in the 80s or 90s that are riding the pine now.

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Theres a rabbit hole of infinite factors when comparing eras. Not only training, personal wealth of the players, and rule changes. But awareness. Each generation learns from the previous one and almost always set a new standard and a higher bar. It's like in anything else, once one person does a new trick it's amazing for a while but then others quickly realize they can do the trick too. If you judge any activity that spans generations strictly by physical and technical skill then whatever is happening right now is always going to be the greatest thing that's ever happened.

 

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