Question for show watchers and book readers.

[crowcrow]

Just now, A Bong of Ice and Fire said:

At least thanks to GoT we will at least know in principle how ASoIaF might have ended.

same. but i think many peeps have already guessed the "principle" 

[SeaWitch]

....doesn't take six years to write a book?!

Not every author is Stephen King, who is some kind of inhuman.  The sheer complexity of this world and the number of plot lines being woven together, hell, yes, six years is entirely possible for a manuscript the size of these beasts.  Even once you have a first draft, there are likely extensive rewrites before an editor gets to it, and many toing and froings after.  And writing is bloody hard work.

 

 

[Cas Stark]

10 minutes ago, RevaM said:

 

tbh, i think all of the stark family was casted horribly. Is it so hard to find people with auburn hair and long face??? Aside from Sansa (But frankly speaking, i think Sophie Turner's "beauty" is really overrrated, like she's pretty. sure. but not drop dead gorgeous 10/10), none of the starks got to be played by actors that were like them.(except for Benjen)

isaac wright doesn't have the tully looks and neither does robb's and rickon's actors. 

Honestly, i think Robb, Bran, Rickon had to have red hair+Blue eye to contrast the difference between Jon and Arya, since both of them are outsiders/black sheep and that is a very important theme in their chapters and because of the poor casting choice the effect wasn't there.

Catelyn is too damn old...like seriously why....couldn't they find a younger actress

When i watch the show, i always wonder why D&D even considered him as Jon in the first place. Kit doesn't have the Stark features (He has black hair, brown eyes, round face while the real Jon has long face, brown hair and dark grey/almost black eyes). And after Jon's resurrection, Kit plays him more boring than ever. Like, i doubt the real Jon would get 100231783839% more emo than he already is after the so called "resurrection"

And i disagree about Sean Bean, yes, he is an excellent actor, but he is just not ned. He has blue eyes and dark blonde hair and an oval face instead of the classic stark look.

And as for Maisie....ah where should i start...she isn't beautiful, nor pretty or even cute (but that's subjective and purely my humble opinion) which is disappointing, since beauty is a very important theme in her chapters + she is supposed to be like her aunt right? I know she was a kid and nobody knew that puberty would be so cruel to her lol but still. there were 300 girls who wanted to play Arya and I'm sure there were some long faced girls that were somewhat similar to the real Arya.

And she is nothing like i imagined the real Arya would look like. even GRRM says so. he imagined arya to look more wolfish with pointy features and Maisie doesn't have that AT ALL. she has this round baby face and hazel?green? eyes. Like Sean, she is a good actress but she's simply not arya. And now she looks too old to play her (its obvious she isn't 14) and the show completely skipped her "flowering" moment. GAH.

Is the 'long face' really necessary?  I was upset they didn't put purple contacts on Dany and her brother, but the long face, that to me really is a nitpick.  Richard Madden did have an auburn tint to his hair, though yes, I guess they could have done a little more to make Bran and Rickon have the Tully look.  Maise's casting is another reason I think she dies.  If she was going to 'grow up' as a beauty and have a life as a beautiful woman they would have cast a pretty girl and played down her looks until the final season.

It's interesting that having so many great secondary actors that their picks for the two arguable leads...Kit and Emelia are quite limited in their range...I have never seen her in anything but GOT where she is good, Kit is at least servicable in his other roles..

[Sea Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Is the 'long face' really necessary?  I was upset they didn't put purple contacts on Dany and her brother, but the long face, that to me really is a nitpick.  Richard Madden did have an auburn tint to his hair, though yes, I guess they could have done a little more to make Bran and Rickon have the Tully look.  Maise's casting is another reason I think she dies.  If she was going to 'grow up' as a beauty and have a life as a beautiful woman they would have cast a pretty girl and played down her looks until the final season.

It's interesting that having so many great secondary actors that their picks for the two arguable leads...Kit and Emelia are quite limited in their range...I have never seen her in anything but GOT where she is good, Kit is at least servicable in his other roles..

I think Emilia is aweful in the show. Maybe it is the directing? I have seen her in other movies and she seems much better and more like a real, emotive person.

Kit is another one that I think maybe it is the directing that is making him so dull. I'm not crazy about the show anyway.

[Cas Stark]

Just now, Sea Dragon said:

I think Emilia is aweful in the show. Maybe it is the directing? I have seen her in other movies and she seems much better and more like a real, emotive person.

Kit is another one that I think maybe it is the directing that is making him so dull. I'm not crazy about the show anyway.

She has moments in the show of being straight up cringe worthy...but everything else I've seen her in, I have thought 'bad actress with no screen presence' somehow at least GOT manages to give her a presence.  I think at least Kit has improved.  Emilia is the same as she ever was to me.

[crowcrow]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

She has moments in the show of being straight up cringe worthy...but everything else I've seen her in, I have thought 'bad actress with no screen presence' somehow at least GOT manages to give her a presence.  I think at least Kit has improved.  Emilia is the same as she ever was to me.

i agree, she conveys no emotions when she talks, and she just acts like a flawless white haired queen....nooo not a queen...a khalesi....not a khaleesi, a POLTICEN!...not a- 

[crowcrow]

On May 9, 2017 at 11:47 PM, Cas Stark said:

Is the 'long face' really necessary?  I was upset they didn't put purple contacts on Dany and her brother, but the long face, that to me really is a nitpick.  Richard Madden did have an auburn tint to his hair, though yes, I guess they could have done a little more to make Bran and Rickon have the Tully look.  Maise's casting is another reason I think she dies.  If she was going to 'grow up' as a beauty and have a life as a beautiful woman they would have cast a pretty girl and played down her looks until the final season.

It's interesting that having so many great secondary actors that their picks for the two arguable leads...Kit and Emelia are quite limited in their range...I have never seen her in anything but GOT where she is good, Kit is at least servicable in his other roles..

yes i think long face was necessary bc arya was made fun of her long horsey face...but then again, thats just me...they could have at least gotten some parts of the looks right...

and yeah the purple eyes thing bugs me a lot. they could afford those luxurious targaryen wigs but apparently not the purple lenses...

AND what makes you think she's gonna die???martin had ALWAYS intended her to live, she was part of the original 5 survivors from the outline, martin said it many times that he had always known arya's arc. there are many foreshadowings of her being a queen!

 maisie was a kid when she was casted, they didnt know how she'd look like in a few years. and as you have mentioned before, the same goes for Bran. they couldn't have possible predicted that puberty would be so cruel to them.

[Cas Stark]

Just now, RevaM said:

yes i think long face was necessary bc arya was made fun of her long horsey face...but then again, thats just me...they could have at least gotten some parts of the looks right...

and yeah the purple eyes thing bugs me a lot. they could afford those luxurious targaryen wigs but apparently not the purple lenses...

AND what makes you think she's gonna die???martin had ALWAYS intended her to live, she was part of the original 5 survivors from the outline, martin said it many times that he had always known arya's arc. there are many foreshadowings of her being a queen!

 maisie was kid when she was casted, they didnt know how she'd look like in a few years.

I think she will die because (1) Martin likes to kill Starks, (2) her story is pretty much about death....if she does die, anyone going back to do a reread is going to say 'oh, it was so obvious she would die....'  like on a reread it's obvious that Robb is going to die.  

[StepStark]

1 hour ago, RhaenysB said:

Yes. Exactly. What was he supposed to do? Get shit done. There's always room for improvement, a piece of writing is never ever ready, you can always change things and always improve things. At some point (like a night before the deadline your editor gives you), you have to let it go in the knowledge that it's good enough even if you could spend another ten days (years, in case of GRRM) improving it. 

asoiaf is a good story, but who are we kidding, it's not some sort of unworldly perfection that has to be crafted for six years. It's a book. It's a fictional fantasy story. The kind of which other authors publish six in six years, instead of one (or zero). Don't rush it, don't get on a tight schedule, but I'm not buying that any book needs six years to be written, if it does, something is wrong. 

Yes it's entirely possible, but why on god's earth would anybody want to do that? and what's the guarantee that there'll even be a reward? Like 35 year old me will say ah, right, this poor author never got to finish his amazing novels I read when I was 18... but hey, wasn't there a show made, like a decade ago, maybe I can watch that and see if what happened? Why is this good for me? Come on.  

I don't think I'm kidding anyone, least of all myself, when I say that ASOIAF is masterclass of storytelling. Not just fantasy or any other genre, but storytelling in general, period. I would be kidding myself if you were to think that writing ASOIAF is as easy as writing Harry Potter. Eventually, ASOIAF may fall prey to GRRM's ambitions, maybe he did bit more than he could chew (so far nothing indicates that, but it is a theoretical possibility), but there is no denying that GRRM's ambitions are far bigger and more serious than ambitions of Rowling and such. With all the meticulously created and written characters, ASOIAF is certainly not just "a fictional fantasy story" because typical fantasy stories are usually cursed with poor characterization. There is a reason why no genre story has a character as complex and layered as Jaime Lannister for example. So I'm perfectly fine with genre authors publishing million books a year: I'm not interested in them, because I like my stories complex and intelligent. If TWOW and ADOS are going to be as intelligent and complex as previous five books, I'm fine with GRRM taking all the time he needs. Just like I'm fine with D&D giving whatever simplistic and ridiculous rendition of the same story they can handle, to those who aren't patient or maybe even interested in ASOIAF and its goods. To each their own.

[crowcrow]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

I think she will die because (1) Martin likes to kill Starks, (2) her story is pretty much about death....if she does die, anyone going back to do a reread is going to say 'oh, it was so obvious she would die....'  like on a reread it's obvious that Robb is going to die.  

ummm...nnoooo???...like wow....its obvious you haven't read ANYTHING about arya and her fate....but since this thread isn't about that, I'm not going to bother debating on that. but i just want you to know that its not that obvious as robb's (who didn't have a POV to begin with), her story isn't pretty much about death, she has bajillion of foreshadowings of her becoming a queen, and martin had always intended her to live along with bran, jon, tyrion, and dany. 

[crowcrow]

Just now, StepStark said:

I don't think I'm kidding anyone, least of all myself, when I say that ASOIAF is masterclass of storytelling. Not just fantasy or any other genre, but storytelling in general, period. I would be kidding myself if you were to think that writing ASOIAF is as easy as writing Harry Potter. Eventually, ASOIAF may fall prey to GRRM's ambitions, maybe he did bit more than he could chew (so far nothing indicates that, but it is a theoretical possibility), but there is no denying that GRRM's ambitions are far bigger and more serious than ambitions of Rowling and such. With all the meticulously created and written characters, ASOIAF is certainly not just "a fictional fantasy story" because typical fantasy stories are usually cursed with poor characterization. There is a reason why no genre story has a character as complex and layered as Jaime Lannister for example. So I'm perfectly fine with genre authors publishing million books a year: I'm not interested in them, because I like my stories complex and intelligent. If TWOW and ADOS are going to be as intelligent and complex as previous five books, I'm fine with GRRM taking all the time he needs. Just like I'm fine with D&D giving whatever simplistic and ridiculous rendition of the same story they can handle, to those who aren't patient or maybe even interested in ASOIAF and its goods. To each their own.

THIS!

[StepStark]

51 minutes ago, RevaM said:

tbh, i think all of the stark family was casted horribly.

Not only that, but some of the actors, while miscasts, are capable actors, and yet they weren't given the chance to play interesting characters. Michelle Fairly is a good example: I think she'd be very good if given the material from the books, where Cat was a well-rounded and multilayered character, but sadly she was treated horribly in the show and eventually relegated to someone who has less screen-time than Shae if I remember right.

But the family that is cast the worst has to be Baratheons. Did they get anyone of them even remotely right?

[crowcrow]

Just now, StepStark said:

Not only that, but some of the actors, while miscasts, are capable actors, and yet they weren't given the chance to play interesting characters. Michelle Fairly is a good example: I think she'd be very good if given the material from the books, where Cat was a well-rounded and multilayered character, but sadly she was treated horribly in the show and eventually relegated to someone who has less screen-time than Shae if I remember right.

But the family that is cast the worst has to be Baratheons. Did they get anyone of them even remotely right?

Robert? he seemed pretty accurate to me...but i guess he isn't tall enough

other than that stannis maybe, but he doesn't have the blue eyes...

so yeah that's it i guess. 

[StepStark]

Just now, RevaM said:

Robert? he seemed pretty accurate to me...but i guess he isn't tall enough

Exactly, not tall enough. He just didn't look like one of the most fearsome warriors in the world, which Robert in the books actually is.

2 minutes ago, RevaM said:

other than that stannis maybe, but he doesn't have the blue eyes...

The same: he just doesn't look like a famous military commander. Dellane looked more like a philosopher than like a guy who's dead set on winning the throne beyond the sword. When the casting news for season two were out, I remember comments that Davos and Stannis actors should switch, and to this day I completely agree with that.

[crowcrow]

Just now, StepStark said:

I remember comments that Davos and Stannis actors should switch, and to this day I completely agree with that.

saaammmee

[RhaenysBee]

5 minutes ago, StepStark said:

I don't think I'm kidding anyone, least of all myself, when I say that ASOIAF is masterclass of storytelling. Not just fantasy or any other genre, but storytelling in general, period. I would be kidding myself if you were to think that writing ASOIAF is as easy as writing Harry Potter. Eventually, ASOIAF may fall prey to GRRM's ambitions, maybe he did bit more than he could chew (so far nothing indicates that, but it is a theoretical possibility), but there is no denying that GRRM's ambitions are far bigger and more serious than ambitions of Rowling and such. With all the meticulously created and written characters, ASOIAF is certainly not just "a fictional fantasy story" because typical fantasy stories are usually cursed with poor characterization. There is a reason why no genre story has a character as complex and layered as Jaime Lannister for example. So I'm perfectly fine with genre authors publishing million books a year: I'm not interested in them, because I like my stories complex and intelligent. If TWOW and ADOS are going to be as intelligent and complex as previous five books, I'm fine with GRRM taking all the time he needs. Just like I'm fine with D&D giving whatever simplistic and ridiculous rendition of the same story they can handle, to those who aren't patient or maybe even interested in ASOIAF and its goods. To each their own.

I kinda understand your point and absolutely respect it. My approach is fundamentally different so I don't think we'll ever come to an agreement. While I think you slightly overrate the books, I agree it's more complicated storytelling than Harry Potter and I agree that takes more time. I still don't think that justifies the 6-year wait. I definitely think he bit way more than he can chew and I do think there are signs indicating that. I also think it was absolutely unnecessary to take on writing that massive amount of plot. Risking that you'll never talk to me again, if it were up to me, at least half of asoiaf would have been edited out. While I respect the quality characters and storytelling, I read this series for leisure and entertainment, basically the core storyline. I could have done with half the material and still enjoyed it. In fact, I would probably have enjoyed it more. If I want deep and layered storytelling and characters, this isn't the genre or length I'll go for. But just like you said, each to their own. 

Bsck on track, back on track. 

48 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

I think Emilia is aweful in the show. Maybe it is the directing? I have seen her in other movies and she seems much better and more like a real, emotive person.

Kit is another one that I think maybe it is the directing that is making him so dull. I'm not crazy about the show anyway.

They are both terrible. Kit was terrible from day one and is still terrible. Emilia was pretty good in season 1, she channeled emotions through her facial expressions, her voice, her eyes, she could portray internal conflicts and she had chemistry with Jason. Season two was okay-ish but that was when they started pushing the "badass female character" profile which is massively overdone both by the writers and the directors. It also doesn't help that the cast around her is generally terrible. Missandei, Grey worm, the Daarios... literally no chemistry in that group. Some very measured amount with Ian Glen but really Peter Dinklage was the first actor she had a dynamic with since Jason or Harry Lloyd. (In fact this sort of applies to Kit too, because his acting is almost decent around John Bradley and Rose). And I keep getting the feeling that she cant relate to this stage of show-Daenerys at all (and I kinda can't blame her for that). 

[Cas Stark]

I can't agree there.  Dillane was to me a perfect Stannis.  The fact that he managed to be a perfect Stannis doing it all on instinct is pretty amazing.  Sadly, the showrunners didn't give him much to do as the years went on.  I think Davos would be a terrible Stannis.

I also don't get the objections over Mark Addy's height, that to me is another nitpick.  Renly should have been more handsome though, but that's not a huge issue either.

[RhaenysBee]

23 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Not only that, but some of the actors, while miscasts, are capable actors, and yet they weren't given the chance to play interesting characters. Michelle Fairly is a good example: I think she'd be very good if given the material from the books, where Cat was a well-rounded and multilayered character, but sadly she was treated horribly in the show and eventually relegated to someone who has less screen-time than Shae if I remember right.

But the family that is cast the worst has to be Baratheons. Did they get anyone of them even remotely right?

I thought Michelle Fairly was okay. Sean Bean was a terrible casting choice, bless him, and I generally have negative feelings about show Ned (and book Ned. I just don't like Ned. I know. Shame, shame, shame). Richard Madden was okay, Isaac was a very cute baby Bran, puberty did him no favor though. Same with Maisie, she was a great child actor, now she is okay-ish. Season 3 and 4 were the low points of her acting imho. Art Parkinson is like a green canvas, he is just there in the back ground and he is perfect for that. Sophie is a terrible actor. 

Robert is pretty great. Renly is nothing like Renly is supposed to be, but okay. I can't stand Stannis, so the casting makes little to no difference but yeah, the actor didn't go out of his ways to bring the character to life. Selyse is nothing like show Selyse, Kerry Ingram was a very cute person. Past tense. I even unfollowed here instagram. 

The most painful miscast was Mance, imo. It was so terrible it broke my heart. 

[StepStark]

4 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

Risking that you'll never talk to me again

Please... Not that talking with me is necessarily a good thing, but it takes more than an honest disagreement to make me not talk with someone.

7 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

I definitely think he bit way more than he can chew and I do think there are signs indicating that. I also think it was absolutely unnecessary to take on writing that massive amount of plot.

I don't think we can know that for sure before he actually finishes the story. On the other hand, if he doesn't finish it for whatever reason, then by definition it'll become "bit more than he could chew" situation.

9 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

If I want deep and layered storytelling and characters, this isn't the genre or length I'll go for.

This is where I think our basic disagreement exists. ASOIAF is not a genre piece. It doesn't look like one, and it's way more complex and rewarding than one. That's my firm opinion based on years of analyzing it (including reading essays on this site and other ASOIAF sites) and comparing it to other works of fiction, be it genre pieces or more respected literature. And yes, maybe I'm overrating the books, but on the other hand, maybe you're underrating them.

[StepStark]

If an actor doesn't look anything like the character in the books, and yet he's supposed to leave the same impression as the character in the books, then I'm pretty sure he/she is miscast. Mark Addy was simply miscast. He'd be equally miscast as Victarion Greyjoy for example, who is also a fearsome individual like Robert is supposed to be. Addy is a good actor, but that has nothing to do with him being miscast.

Dillane was not really good as Stannis, but that's hardly his fault. He didn't read the books and only had the scripts to work with, and D&D never had any idea what to do with Stannis. So it makes sense when Dillane admitted that he never understood the appeal of the character he was playing. But when an actor admits he didn't even understand the character he was playing, he definitely couldn't be any good in the role, not even by chance.