Rhaegar wasn't polygamous, he was dumping Elia for Lyanna

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 minutes ago, velo-knight said:

Lyanna would not work to ally with Rickard, Cersei would be far better.

1. Less scandal - broken marriage, but not betrothal
2. Brings in another power bloc, specifically bound to Rhaegar
3. if Lyanna goes, the Stormlands leave Rhaegar's bloc.
    

Lyanna doesn't work as a political choice, because if Rhaegar was thinking politically, he might have observed that the lords were already allying, presumably in fear of his father, so he doesn't need to marry in. Instead he can promise for Cersei, spread the rumor that Jaime will be released from the KG, and ask Hoster to keep Lysa free "because he has an excellent prospect who will be ready to marry soon". That way, Rhaegar and Tywin buy into a bigger marriage alliance web, which contains cousin Robert and Tywin.

Rhaegar was not taking Lyanna to make her his new queen.

Tywin already hated Aerys. Why would Rhaegar have to marry Cersei to gain Tywin as an ally? If anything, he could suggest a marriage between Cersei and Ned to help solidify the Stark alliance. And you are ignoring the fact that Rhaegar also wanted Lyanna to fulfill prophecy, not just for politics.

[velo-knight]

2 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Tywin already hated Aerys. Why would Rhaegar have to marry Cersei to gain Tywin as an ally? If anything, he could suggest a marriage between Cersei and Ned to help solidify the Stark alliance. And you are ignoring the fact that Rhaegar also wanted Lyanna to fulfill prophecy, not just for politics.

As for Tywin, so he doesn't take his ball and go home - and so he doesn't try and maneuver some third outcome, which is not impossible for a player of the Game with his skill and resources.

As for Lyanna, I do not believe he did.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Divorce in Westeros is a very complicated thing. Rhaegar would need the High Septon's and the King's approval and a solid reason why he needed a divorce. Even if he was able to get both on board with the idea, which is unlikely, it would make his children with Elia bastards I believe.

Basically if Rhaegar was such a dick and wanted to marry Lyanna so much he'd just poison Elia and blame it on her failing health and marry Lyanna. It would be much quicker and easier, but he didn't go that route for a reason.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

10 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Divorce in Westeros is a very complicated thing. Rhaegar would need the High Septon's and the King's approval and a solid reason why he needed a divorce. Even if he was able to get both on board with the idea, which is unlikely, it would make his children with Elia bastards I believe.

Basically if Rhaegar was such a dick and wanted to marry Lyanna so much he'd just poison Elia and blame it on her failing health and marry Lyanna. It would be much quicker and easier, but he didn't go that route for a reason.

But that's the thing. He wouldn't necessarily need the High Septon's approval. The High Septon only holds sway over small folk who worship the Seven. He doesn't have an army. So while it might be nice to get the High Septon to grant a divorce, Rhaegar as king could just marry Lyanna and there isn't much the small folk can do about it. He could even marry her in front of a weirwood and abandon the Seven if he has a northern alliance. And yes, he would probably be declaring Elia's children bastards in the process.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

1 minute ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But that's the thing. He wouldn't necessarily need the High Septon's approval. The High Septon only holds sway over small folk who worship the Seven. He doesn't have an army. So while it might be nice to get the High Septon to grant a divorce, Rhaegar as king could just marry Lyanna and there isn't much the small folk can do about it. He could even marry her in front of a weirwood and abandon the Seven if he has a northern alliance. And yes, he would probably be declaring Elia's children bastards in the process.

Pissing off the faith of the seven and all the smallfolk and nobility that worship the seven is not usually a smart idea.

[Hodor the Articulate]

1 hour ago, Holley 4 Barrel said:

That actually makes better sense than the desperately complicated theories out there that attempt to explain his actions.  Rhaegar came to want Lyanna.  Maybe she loved him back, maybe she didn't.  It fits the main plot driver of this story, poor decisions lead to tragedy.  Bad decisions in terms of intimate relations lead to sorrow and tragedy for the many.  

Right. It's a recurring theme throughout the series. R + L is the "run away with your true love" trope, common in romance novels, turned on it's head.

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Because then we would have to ignore the super important fact that Rhaegar was largely motivated by prophecy. He thought his child or children would fulfill prophecy, so it only makes sense that breeding with Lyanna is also part of an attempt to fulfill prophecy. Did he fall in love? Maybe. But that is just speculation. We don't know if he was in love with Lyanna. We do know he was motivated by ancient prophecy.

That's not a fact at all. We don't even know if the prophecy mentions the need for "three heads" or if that's just something Maester Aemon speculates on. Even if it were true, it makes no sense that Rhaegar would need to marry Lyanna. Hell, why does it even need to be Lyanna? If he just needed a vessel for his ice-and-fire baby, there's a whole host of Northern girls that'd happily bear a crown prince's child, no political strife necessary.

Anyway, there's far more evidence that he loved Lyanna, and vice versa. In fact, it's flat out stated by at least two characters.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Pissing off the faith of the seven and all the smallfolk and nobility that worship the seven is not usually a smart idea.

Agreed. But if he thinks the Long Night 2.0 is coming, he may be willing to make drastic political moves, like say, crowning Lyanna at Harrenhal.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 minute ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Right. It's a recurring theme throughout the series. R + L is the "run away with your true love" trope, common in romance novels, turned on it's head.

That's not a fact at all. We don't even know if the prophecy mentions the need for "three heads" or if that's just something Maester Aemon speculates on. Even if it were true, it makes no sense that Rhaegar would need to marry Lyanna. Hell, why does it even need to be Lyanna? If he just needed a vessel for his ice-and-fire baby, there's a whole host of Northern girls that'd happily bear a crown prince's child, no political strife necessary.

There's far more evidence that he loved Lyanna, and vice versa. In fact, it's flat out stated by at least two characters.

OK, I'll concede it is not technically a fact that Rhaegar was motivated by prophecy. It is only super heavily implied. Rhaegar in the HOTU vision also mentions there must be a third child, which corroborates Aemon's comments. It needs to be Lyanna because she is a skinchanger, not just some random northern girl. Her blood makes her special. And if he wanted Lyanna to have his kids, it then makes a lot of sense to just make her queen and gain the Starks as allies.

[Hodor the Articulate]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

OK, I'll concede it is not technically a fact that Rhaegar was motivated by prophecy. It is only super heavily implied. Rhaegar in the HOTU vision also mentions there must be a third child, which corroborates Aemon's comments. It needs to be Lyanna because she is a skinchanger, not just some random northern girl. Her blood makes her special. And if he wanted Lyanna to have his kids, it then makes a lot of sense to just make her queen and gain the Starks as allies.

I'm not sure which of Aemon's comments you're referring to, but I maintain that the HotU vision was suspect. You'll notice that the "dragon has three heads" etc part seems almost separate from from the rest of the vision. And during that little "intermission", he looks straight at Dany. It's weird, and so I think it's a vision!Rhaegar speaking those lines, not the real Rhaegar.

Re: Lyanna, there's nothing that suggests she's a skinchanger, or that a skinchanger is required for the prophecy.

Marriages are used to seal alliances that have already been agreed upon. You can't just marry and then expect your families to go along with it. It doesn't work like that. Moreover, as others have noted, divorce would be extremely difficult to come by. You'd need approval from the HS and the King. It would be easy for the Starks to claim the marriage between R and L was invalid, on the grounds that he still had a wife, and boom! Alliance gone!

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

6 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

This has probably been discussed somewhere before, but I wanted to post a short topic

Liar

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Liar

LOL I meant short compared to my long ass grand theory posts. this is as short as I can possibly express an asoiaf-related thought  

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I'm not sure which of Aemon's comments you're referring to, but I maintain that the HotU vision was suspect. You'll notice that the "dragon has three heads" etc part seems almost separate from from the rest of the vision. And during that little "intermission", he looks straight at Dany. It's weird, and so I think it's a vision!Rhaegar speaking those lines, not the real Rhaegar.

Re: Lyanna, there's nothing that suggests she's a skinchanger, or that a skinchanger is required for the prophecy.

Marriages are used to seal alliances that have already been agreed upon. You can't just marry and then expect your families to go along with it. It doesn't work like that. Moreover, as others have noted, divorce would be extremely difficult to come by. You'd need approval from the HS and the King. It would be easy for the Starks to claim the marriage between R and L was invalid, on the grounds that he still had a wife, and boom! Alliance gone!

Yes the HOTU visions are all suspect, but the fact remains that we have multiple references to the "dragon having 3 heads" with regards to the PtwP prophecy. I think we can safely say that some version of the prophecy, at least the version Aemon and Rhaegar have read, indicated 3 people with the right blood being involved in fulfilling the prophecy. And we also know that Rhaegar at some point became convinced that his child, not he, would be the PtwP.

Lyanna and Brandon were "a pair of centaurs" according to Lady Dustin, and Ned told Arya back in AGOT: "Ah Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave."

Lyanna and Brandon, like Arya, were skinchangers. And you are correct that there is nothing directly stating a skinchanger is  required, but the PtwP prophecy seems to be dependent on said prince at least having the right blood to be a "head of the dragon" which probably means a dragon-rider. And skinchanging genes may be able effectively interchangeable with dragon-riding genes.

Yes, obviously the normal diplomatic way to go about things is to agree to an alliance first and seal it with a marriage. My whole point was that Rhaegar was trying to force Rickard's hand by impregnating Lyanna, making it so she could no longer marry Robert. The Starks would want the marriage to stay valid because it would mean Lyanna becoming queen, and otherwise Lyanna would be basically worthless. It would have been a total dick move by Rhaegar.

[Tralalala]

9 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Thoughts?  

Doesn't much matter,but Rhaegar is exactly the one to blame,he broke his vow for no good reason and had an heir apparent and a spare in his brother(Viserys) trying to set Ellia's children aside without killing them or wall and silent sisters is just inpossible they will always be claimants and Aegon looks valyrian while Jon assuming of course the he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son looks like a northern savage little above a wildling. Even if Lyanna was the knight of the laughing tree,Rhaegar had no buissness even crowning her with Ellia present at the tourney let alone eloping on some madman's prophecy crusade.

I agree Brandon Stark's a fool but he may not have known how mad Aerys is and quite frankly if it was Aegon(egg from dunk and egg) he wouldn't be executed and the situation most likely resolved somewhat peacefully.

Rhaegar was a coward and i don't mean afraid of a battle i mean afraid of his father,if he was truly such a wonderful prince why didn't he do a surprise coup? No need for extra planning just bring enough men to the red keep(As Ned tried to do) and sway the kingsguard or as you have enough men fight them? Imprison his father and declare himself regent,but no he goes after a prophecy and goes to abbandon his own children for the young love he shares with Lyanna(bleh) or in the words of lord Walder "The young remember nothing when they see a pretty face and a nice firm pair of teats, isn’t that so"

[Hodor the Articulate]

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Yes the HOTU visions are all suspect, but the fact remains that we have multiple references to the "dragon having 3 heads" with regards to the PtwP prophecy. I think we can safely say that some version of the prophecy, at least the version Aemon and Rhaegar have read, indicated 3 people with the right blood being involved in fulfilling the prophecy. And we also know that Rhaegar at some point became convinced that his child, not he, would be the PtwP.

Lyanna and Brandon were "a pair of centaurs" according to Lady Dustin, and Ned told Arya back in AGOT: "Ah Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave."

Lyanna and Brandon, like Arya, were skinchangers. And you are correct that there is nothing directly stating a skinchanger is  required, but the PtwP prophecy seems to be dependent on said prince at least having the right blood to be a "head of the dragon" which probably means a dragon-rider. And skinchanging genes may be able effectively interchangeable with dragon-riding genes.

Yes, obviously the normal diplomatic way to go about things is to agree to an alliance first and seal it with a marriage. My whole point was that Rhaegar was trying to force Rickard's hand by impregnating Lyanna, making it so she could no longer marry Robert. The Starks would want the marriage to stay valid because it would mean Lyanna becoming queen, and otherwise Lyanna would be basically worthless. It would have been a total dick move by Rhaegar.

That Rhaegar vision wasn't just suspect, the way it was written suggests the "three heads" bit was not something that was actually said. We can't count on that as solid evidence that he was looking to gain three heads through his offspring. We also can't assume "three heads" is actually written into in the prophecy. We can't know for sure if it is, or if it's just something Aemon felt was necessary because of the symbolic weight it held for his family.

The quote you provided regarding Lyanna and Brandon says nothing about them being skinchangers. They are described as having "wolf-blood" because they were a wild hot-blooded pair, not because they could skinchange. Are we to believe that Dany is a skinchanger for having "blood of the dragon"?

Like I said, you can't force an alliance by marriage, or even through pregnancy. It won't end well - just look at what happened to Robb and Jeyne. Agreeing to the alliance makes the Starks powerful enemies in Dorne and Storm's End, and it sends the message that they are Rhaegar's bitches. There's not even a guarantee that they'd win the war. Why deal with that headache, when they could just lop off head Rhaegar's head as soon as they get Lyanna back? They might even still be able to keep the betrothal to Robert by claiming Lyanna was forcibly taken by Rhaegar. Otherwise, she'd still be relatively easy to pawn off, just as Lysa was. So it wouldn't be just a dick move, it'd be incredibly stupid as well.

 

 

[Rhaegar Frey]

What I find strange about Rhaegar is that it seems like he was a really good guy. So it is hard to believe he would break his bond of marriage with Elia just because he loved another woman. I think it has more to do with the "Ice and Fire" prophecy rather than just love. It would seem very douchy just to leave Elia because he fell in love with Lyanna.

[Wm Portnoy]

27 minutes ago, Rhaegar Frey said:

What I find strange about Rhaegar is that it seems like he was a really good guy. So it is hard to believe he would break his bond of marriage with Elia just because he loved another woman. I think it has more to do with the "Ice and Fire" prophecy rather than just love. It would seem very douchy just to leave Elia because he fell in love with Lyanna.

He may have been a good buy but he still gave in to his heart's desire.  Robb was not such a bad guy but his heart led him to break his oath to an important ally during the middle of war.  Jon is not such a bad guy but he betrayed his office and his men in order to help the girl that he loved in Arya.  Rhaegar, Robb, and Jon followed their hearts and allowed their love for a girl to compromise their judgement.  All three betrayed their loyal followers and all for only their love of a girl.  Those three died because they were not fit to rule. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Short answer: we don't know.

Long answer: we really don't know.

Short of reading about what was going on in Rhaegar's head and what his actions and intentions were in the books, we cannot know. GRRM has said we'll get the whole story, so hopefully he'll be clearing up a lot of the misconceptions in either direction about Rhaegar.

[Lord Varys]

Rhaegar would have needed the permission of his royal father and the High Septon to set aside Elia and take another wife. He would have never gotten the permission from either of that. Elia had been a faithful and fertile wife, giving Rhaegar a healthy daughter and son, making it exceedingly unlikely that anybody would have accepted or approved of him setting her aside.

Kings can do whatever the hell they want to and with their (sister-)wives but princes are stuck with whoever they are married to.

And from a political point of view Rickard Stark's support would essentially be worth effectively nothing. Rickard was a lord without much power. An alliance between Rhaegar and Tywin and a Cersei-Rhaegar marriage could have made a difference, or a marriage between Rhaegar and a sister of Mace Tyrell. But Rhaegar-Lyanna were worth nothing on the political field.

Lord Lyonel Baratheon crowned himself the new Storm King because Prince Duncan spurned his daughter. Lord Robert Baratheon was Aegon V's great-grandson just as Rhaegar was. It is very unlikely that he needed Aerys' command to kill him to remember his love for Lyanna, the stain on his honor, and his royal ancestry.

The prophecy may have played into Rhaegar's actions but since the Lyanna thing was just madness and stupidity from any rational political viewpoint we can safely say that it would have played a very small role, especially in light of the fact that Rhaegar obviously believed a son of Elia Martell was the promised prince whose song was the Song of Ice and Fire even after he had met Lyanna Stark at Harrenhal.

The deciding factor there would have been Rhaegar's mad love - or perhaps even madness and love. You have to be mad to actually believe a prophecy compels you to abduct a woman like Lyanna who essentially sits at the heart of a very intricate net of political connections.

The prophecy may have meant Rhaegar needed a second wife or a woman to give him another son but that doesn't mean that woman has to be a 14-15-year-old maiden named Lyanna Stark.

[purple-eyes]

Actually it seems like GRRM is on the track to make Elia set aside by Rhaegar therefore he can make Rhaegar be single again therefore give a flawless pure royal background for Jon Snowflake. How come a bastard be the ultimate hero? it has to be a trueborn prince. 

 

 

[Rosetta Stone]

47 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Actually it seems like GRRM is on the track to make Elia set aside by Rhaegar therefore he can make Rhaegar be single again therefore give a flawless pure royal background for Jon Snowflake. How come a bastard be the ultimate hero? it has to be a trueborn prince. 

 

 

GRRM has said nothing of the sort.  Besides, Jon Snowflake is the main screw-up in the novels, not the ultimate hero.  George will want to stay consistent with the internal logic already set in the story.   That is, Rhaegar was just a prince and he never had the authority to divorce Elia.  Any byproduct of his relationship with Lyanna is a bastard. 

Was it Rhaegar's intentions to eventually divorce Elia?  The short and the long answer is, it doesn't matter.  He could divorce Elia if and when he becomes king.  But we know he never became the king.  King Aerys was still alive when Robert's war hammer turned off poor Rhaegar's life switch.  Intentions really do not matter because Rhaegar was never in a position to carry out those plans.