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Jon's Queen Consort

Val is Jon’s true Queen. Four.

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The fourth installment of the theory, since the third one arrived the 21rst page.

From another thread @The Fattest Leech mentioned

On 17/4/2017 at 7:42 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

One of Jon's last thoughts before the mutiny stabbing was the safety of Val. Even after all of the adult taunts and teases and flirting, he still is concerned about her in the end.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Horse and Rory fell in beside Jon as he left the Shieldhall. I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me. Then he heard the shouting … and a roar so loud it seemed to shake the Wall. "That come from Hardin's Tower, m'lord," Horse reported. He might have said more, but the scream cut him off.
Val, was Jon's first thought. But that was no woman's scream. That is a man in mortal agony. He broke into a run. Horse and Rory raced after him. "Is it wights?" asked Rory. Jon wondered. Could his corpses have escaped their chains?

 

The previous threads;

 

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Yeah!
Thanks for this.

I will get some good stuff to add to this soon, but in the meantime, have any of you read George's 1980 story Nightflyers??? I won't spoil too much (unless you want me to :leer:), but George set up a Jon/Val relationship almost verbatim over 37 years ago. So, just because we don't see Val until ASOS, that does not mean she was just "thrown in there."

p.s.- read the story, don't watch the movie unless you want a total, trippy, laugh-fest :lmao:. Not even George was happy with the movie.

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I was already thinking Mance was (or will) relinquish his role of King Beyond the Wall in favor of Jon. Because a NW deserter would not be accepted by North or South houses. But a son of the respected Ned taking responsibility for the Free Folk could make the difference. If, as I believe, Mance wished integration into the 7 kingdoms. And however Jon would deal with the conflict between leader of the Free Folk and Lord Commander of the NW.

But Jon asking Val to convince the Wildling to come to him. And Val doing it. Means she has engaged her credibility with the Free Folk. If they came to Jon, it would not be because Jon promised something. Not because they have no other choice. But because Val said "come", and they believed her. Given the independence spirit of the Free Folk, it must mean a great deal of confidence of Val for Jon, and the Free Folk for Val. And for them, people like Tormund, it means they expect Jon to marry one of them, to really care and be one of them. They accepted Jon initially in great part because of Ygritte. And Val is the most (if only) logical choice.

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I like this. If jon really become the king in the north we'll have finally peace between the North and the free folk. And the wall will serve it's real purpose defend the kingdom from the Others. Very nice.

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32 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I like this. If jon really become the king in the north we'll have finally peace between the North and the free folk. And the wall will serve it's real purpose defend the kingdom from the Others. Very nice.

Thanks.

Maybe the Free Folk will renew the NW, which became subordinated to the kings and Westeros politic. And is now destroyed. But in a different form. Not something for criminals and lordlings in search of glories.

Keeping the good parts of the oaths, keeping with the Free Folk spirit:  "hold no lands", "wear no crowns", "win no glory". "I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men".

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2 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Thanks.

Maybe the Free Folk will renew the NW, which became subordinated to the kings and Westeros politic. And is now destroyed. But in a different form. Not something for criminals and lordlings in search of glories.

Keeping the good parts of the oaths, keeping with the Free Folk spirit:  "hold no lands", "wear no crowns", "win no glory". "I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men".

Absolutely. I have been a long time believer that the words Sam says to open the black gate are either closer to, or are the actual real vows of the Nights Watch. They are much more simple and not overwrought by time and the meddling of the kids in Kings Landing. 

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10 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Maybe the Free Folk will renew the NW, which became subordinated to the kings and Westeros politic. And is now destroyed. But in a different form. Not something for criminals and lordlings in search of glories.

That would be cool. Because I really believe that the downfall of the Wall is a metaphorical one. Where the oaths and vows people make don't have any value and the NW itself isn't the same anymore. And that is why the Others have so much space to grow in numbers.

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I like this.

I wonder if Jons integration policy will bring more weddings between Wildings and Northmen.

 

Like Tormund and a Mormont seems likely.

but there are other female heirs in the north that could follow Alys Karsktar lead in this.

Jonelle Cerywn (house with axe sigil) for instance, marrying Soren Shieldbreker (big axe guy)

Eddara tallhart

Beth Cassel.

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Sorry if this has been discussed before on the other three parts.

For Val to be Jon's queen, he needs to be a king, but is he one?

Below is Jon's observations when he first encounters Mance:

Quote

The King-beyond-the-Wall looked nothing like a king, nor even much a wildling. He was of middling height, slender, sharp-faced, with shrewd brown eye brown eyes and long brown hair that had gone mostly to grey.  There was no crown on his head, no gold rings on his arms, no jewels at his throat, not even a gleam of silver. He wore wool and leather and his only garment of note was his ragged black wool cloak, its long tears patched with faded red silk.

 

And below is the wildlings' tribute to Jon:

Quote

Howd Wanderer swore his oath upon his sword, as nicked and pitted a piece of iron as Jon had ever seen. Devyn Sealskinner presented him  with a sealskin hat, Harle the Huntsman with a bear-claw necklace. The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred. And on and on and on.

As they passed, each warrior stripped off his treasures and tossed them into one of the carts that the stewards had placed before the gate. Amber pendants, golden torques, jeweled daggers, silver brooches set with gemstones, bracelets, rings, niello cups and golden goblets, warhorns and drinking horns, a green jade comb, a necklace of freshwater pearls … all yielded up and noted down by Bowen Marsh. One man surrendered a shirt of silver scales that had surely been made for some great lord. Another produced a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt.

And there were queerer things: a toy mammoth made of actual mammoth hair, an ivory phallus, a helm made from a unicorn's head, complete with horn.

A bear-claw necklace is not a jewel no more than a sealskin hat is a crown, but as they pass gifts become more worthy of a king. Jon got gold rings for his arms from Tormund (not quoted here), he has an amber pendant and a freshwater pearl necklace for his throat, silver in the form of brooches and a shirt made of silver scales. But he has no crown. Can a unicorn's head be thought of as a crown?

Skagosi have unicorns, it is believed, and Jon dreams of shaggydog fighting what appears to be a unicorn in his first ADWD chapter. Skagosi is portrayed as closer to their way of life in wildlings than most other northern lords, can we consider them wildlings and by this relation, and a unicorn helmet a crown fit for a KTBW?

Val wore a "crown" but it was a simple bronze circlet, more suitable for a Queen of Winter, if a Queen of Winters' crown is anything like the King of Winters' crown, than for a QBTW, I believe.

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Jon is a poor choice for king.  It wouldn't make sense for him to attain such a lofty office so I do not believe Val can be his queen.  The only domain he's qualified to rule over is Craster's Keep.  I would like a story where Jon and Val take over Craster's Keep  and live their lives away from civilization.

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2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Sorry if this has been discussed before on the other three parts.

For Val to be Jon's queen, he needs to be a king, but is he one?

 

Val wore a "crown" but it was a simple bronze circlet, more suitable for a Queen of Winter, if a Queen of Winters' crown is anything like the King of Winters' crown, than for a QBTW, I believe.

Hey there. Good stuff.

As far as the crown situation, a few things really, but I think one of the most important parts to remember is Robb's will and then we later see Stoneheart with Robb's "King in the North" crown. It could be something, or not, but either way there are a ton of chips lining up for Jon.

  • A trestle table had been set up across the cave, in a cleft in the rock. Behind it sat a woman all in grey, cloaked and hooded. In her hands was a crown, a bronze circlet ringed by iron swords. She was studying it, her fingers stroking the blades as if to test their sharpness. Her eyes glimmered under her hood.
    Grey was the color of the silent sisters, the handmaidens of the Stranger. Brienne felt a shiver climb her spine. Stoneheart.
Now, how this all plays out after Jon is healed and the Long Noght reeks major havoc in Westeros, and then what the humans realize matter the most, is another (future) matter.

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11 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hey there. Good stuff.

As far as the crown situation, a few things really, but I think one of the most important parts to remember is Robb's will and then we later see Stoneheart with Robb's "King in the North" crown. It could be something, or not, but either way there are a ton of chips lining up for Jon.

  • A trestle table had been set up across the cave, in a cleft in the rock. Behind it sat a woman all in grey, cloaked and hooded. In her hands was a crown, a bronze circlet ringed by iron swords. She was studying it, her fingers stroking the blades as if to test their sharpness. Her eyes glimmered under her hood.
    Grey was the color of the silent sisters, the handmaidens of the Stranger. Brienne felt a shiver climb her spine. Stoneheart.
Now, how this all plays out after Jon is healed and the Long Noght reeks major havoc in Westeros, and then what the humans realize matter the most, is another (future) matter.

Does that mean she's pondering over Robb's will? Then unicorn helmet is no crown for him but he's just waiting for Robb's crown.

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7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Does that mean she's pondering over Robb's will? Then unicorn helmet is no crown for him but he's just waiting for Robb's crown.

Many readers think it is very possible that Jon will be presented with Robb's crown later in the story. However, I love, love, love the idea that the unicorn helmet as a crown!!! Now, will Jon accept it? Will it be "required" for Jon to be king since it seems he has already been chosen by many  to be their leader? Don't know yet, but it seems to be pointing that way.

Who knows, Jon may get it and in a final gesture from him to Robb and Greywind, Jon may put the crown in the Winterfell crypts to honor his Stark brother once all is said and done??? :dunno:

I have actually dreamed and prayed and hoped many times over that Rickon will come riding atop Shaggydog back from Skagos while wearing a unicorn skull helmet. (kinda like the feral kids from Mad Max)...But I digress ^_^.

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3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Does that mean she's pondering over Robb's will? Then unicorn helmet is no crown for him but he's just waiting for Robb's crown.

I still thinks she plans to crown Sansa or at least wants to. She never agreed with Robb's will. To be sure I have no doubt she will crown Jon or Sansa before this is over.

Also part of me likes the idea of her crowning Jon and giving him the kiss of life that Beric gave her. 

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I've noticed something in the trailer, which raised a question

Spoiler

In one scene there are thirteen men in black, waiting in a circle with weapons raised in snowy weather.

Though show and the book plots have diverged now, and before that the show merged characters/storylines or omitted them entirely but some of the major stuff would be there still in one form or the other, right? Assuming this is correct;

There were theories that Planetos history is repeating cycles of sorts. Could Jon be the Last Hero, went to seek the COTF with twelve companions, his horse and dog and  founded the Night's Watch and also the Night's King, thirteenth lord commander, who married an "otherworldly" woman, come again? Would Val be the Queen of the Night of a sorts? 

We also know Brandon the Breaker handled the Night's King but the only Brandon we have now is Brandon the Broken, opposite of Breaker. Jon is also the opposite of Night's King, would that also make Val and the story this time around opposites of the other?

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I'm not convinced Jon will need a crown. I would like the "wear no crowns" to still apply. Jon to be a king like Mance. To be followed because people believe he is their best chance. Not because they can't have the choice of their boss.

But whether he is king, emperor, lord, god on earth, commander or chief or whatever title, Val will be his woman.

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It seems like whenever Jon and Val work together they accomplish what they set out to do. Jon trusts Val and she trusts him which is usually the best start for a long term relationship. Also Jon seems very taken with her, not just her beauty but the way she carries herself.

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On 23/5/2017 at 3:39 AM, Lame Lothar Frey said:

Jon is a poor choice for king.  It wouldn't make sense for him to attain such a lofty office so I do not believe Val can be his queen.  The only domain he's qualified to rule over is Craster's Keep.  I would like a story where Jon and Val take over Craster's Keep  and live their lives away from civilization.

This is not a thread about Jon being the King.

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Some food for thought

 

Quotes on Val and Ghost and Jon

Quote

Gods, wolf, where have you been?” Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. “I thought you'd died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I've had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams." The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon's face with a tongue but he licked Jon's face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

He had his answer then.

 

Quote

When he finally put the quill down, the room was dim and chilly, and he could feel its walls closing in. Perched above the window, the Old Bear's raven peered down at him with shrewd black eyes. My last friend, Jon thought ruefully. And I had best outlive you, or you'll eat my face as well. Ghost did not count. Ghost was part of him.

ADWD Jon III

 

 

Quote

Did you follow me as well?” Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. “Snow,” it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

"Have you been trying to steal my wolf?" he asked her.

ADWD Jon IX

 

Quotes on Wall and Jarl and Jon

 

Quote

The Wall is mine.

ASOS  Jon VIII, IX,  ADWD Jon I, II, III, XI, XIII

 

Quote

It was warm within. A small fire burned beneath the smoke holes, and a brazier smouldered near the pile of furs where dalla lay, pale and sweating. Her sister was holding her hand. Val, Jon remembered. "I was sorry when Jarl fell" he told her.

ASOS Jon X, Jarl falls in ASOS JON IV

 

Quote

"Before I go, one question, did you kill Jarl, my lord?"

"The Wall killed Jarl"

"So I'd heard." But I had to be sure."

"You have my word I did not kill him." Though I might have if things had göne otherwise.

ADWD Jon VIII

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I definitely think GRRM is building up to a romance between Jon and Val. It follows the general pacing of the other relationships in the books, in which the pair first meet in one book but do not become romantically involved until a few books later (Jon/Ygritte, Sam/Gilly, Dany/Daario, possibly Jaime/Brienne). I'm also under the impression that she was essentially replaced by Dany in this regard on the show. Even though I'm leaning towards the likelihood of there being an eighth book, it will still take Dany a full book to make it to Westeros, and then probably another book for her fight against Aegon. That doesn't really leave much time for a relationship between her and Jon, even if it's solely a political one. Show fans want JonxDany though, so that's probably what we'll get. In the books, however, I think we're heading in a different direction, and I'm very excited to see that come to fruition. 

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