Val is Jon’s true Queen. Four.

[Corvo the Crow]

Though not exactly on Val-Jon relationship, I believe it's still something relevant as it's relevant on Jon being a king for the wildlings.

 

This is Stannis acceptinng the Wildlings, making them swear fealty.

Quote

"Come," urged Melisandre. "Come to the light … or run back to the darkness." In the pit below her, the fire was crackling. "If you choose life, come to me."

And they came. Slowly at first, some limping or leaning on their fellows, the captives began to emerge from their rough-hewn pen. If you would eat, come to me, Jon thought. If you would not freeze or starve, submit. Hesitant, wary of some trap, the first few prisoners edged across the planks and through the ring of the stakes, toward Melisandre and the Wall. More followed, when they saw that no harm had come to those who went before. Then more, until it was a steady stream. Queen's men in studded jacks and halfhelms handed each passing man, woman, or child a piece of white weirwood: a stick, a splintered branch as pale as broken bone, a spray of blood-red leaves. A piece of the old gods to feed the new. Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand.

 

The heat from the fire pit was palpable even at a distance; for the wildlings, it had to be blistering. He saw men cringing as they neared the flames, heard children cry. A few turned for the forest. He watched a young woman stumble away with a child on either hand. Every few steps she looked back to make certain no one was coming after them, and when she neared the trees she broke into a run. One greybeard took the weirwood branch they handed him and used it as a weapon, laying about with it until the queen's men converged on him with spears. The others had to step around his body, until Ser Corliss had it thrown in the fire. More of the free folk chose the woods after that—one in ten, perhaps.

But most came on. Behind them was only cold and death. Ahead was hope. They came on, clutching their scraps of wood until the time came to feed them to the flames. R'hllor was a jealous deity, ever hungry. So the new god devoured the corpse of the old, and cast gigantic shadows of Stannis and Melisandre upon the Wall, black against the ruddy red reflections on the ice.

Sigorn was the first to kneel before the king. The new Magnar of Thenn was a younger, shorter version of his father—lean, balding, clad in bronze greaves and a leather shirt sewn with bronze scales. Next came Rattleshirt in clattering armor made of bones and boiled leather, his helm a giant's skull. Under the bones lurked a ruined and wretched creature with cracked brown teeth and a yellow tinge to the whites of his eyes. A small, malicious, treacherous man, as stupid as he is cruel. Jon did not believe for a moment that he would keep faith. He wondered what Val was feeling as she watched him kneel, forgiven.

Lesser leaders followed. Two clan chiefs of the Hornfoot men, whose feet were black and hard. An old wisewoman revered by the peoples of the Milkwater. A scrawny dark-eyed boy of two-and-ten, the son of Alfyn Crowkiller. Halleck, brother to Harma Dogshead, with her pigs. Each took a knee before the king.

It is too cold for this mummer's show, thought Jon. "The free folk despise kneelers," he had warned Stannis. "Let them keep their pride, and they will love you better." His Grace would not listen. He said, "It is swords I need from them, not kisses."

Having knelt, the wildlings shuffled past the ranks of the black brothers to the gate. Jon had detailed Horse and Satin and half a dozen others to lead them through the Wall with torches. On the far side, bowls of hot onion soup awaited them, and chunks of black bread and sausage. Clothes as well: cloaks, breeches, boots, tunics, good leather gloves. They would sleep on piles of clean straw, with fires blazing to keep the chill of night at bay. This king was nothing if not methodical. Soon or late, however, Tormund Giantsbane would assault the Wall again, and when that hour came Jon wondered whose side Stannis's new-made subjects would choose. You can give them land and mercy, but the free folk choose their own kings, and it was Mance they chose, not you.

 

Below we see how accepted the new religion is among the Wildlings.

Quote

The Lord Steward led the way. Jon rode a few yards back, Dolorous Edd Tollett at his side. Half a mile south of Castle Black, Edd urged his garron close to Jon's and said, "M'lord? Look up there. The big drunkard on the hill."

The drunkard was an ash tree, twisted sideways by centuries of wind. And now it had a face. A solemn mouth, a broken branch for a nose, two eyes carved deep into the trunk, gazing north up the kingsroad, toward the castle and the Wall.

The wildlings brought their gods with them after all. Jon was not surprised. Men do not give up their gods so easily. The whole pageant that Lady Melisandre had orchestrated beyond the Wall suddenly seemed as empty as a mummer's farce. "Looks a bit like you, Edd," he said, trying to make light of it.

There are several more carved trees mentioned but this one example should be enough I believe.

 

Tormund's "assault" on the Wall and who the wildlings choose.

Quote

"You might have sent the women first," he said to Tormund. "The mothers and the maids."

The wildling gave him a shrewd look. "Aye, I might have. And you crows might decide to close that gate. A few fighters on t'other side, well, that way the gate stays open, don't it?" He grinned. "I bought your bloody horse, Jon Snow. Don't mean that we can't count his teeth. Now don't you go thinking me and mine don't trust you. We trust you just as much as you trust us." He snorted. "You wanted warriors, didn't you? Well, there they are. Every one worth six o' your black crows."

Jon had to smile. "So long as they save those weapons for our common foe, I am content."

"Gave you my word on it, didn't I? The word of Tormund Giantsbane. Strong as iron, 'tis." He turned and spat.

 

Amongst the stream of warriors were the fathers of many of Jon's hostages. Some stared with cold dead eyes as they went by, fingering their sword hilts. Others smiled at him like long-lost kin, though a few of those smiles discomfited Jon Snow more than any glare. None knelt, but many gave him their oaths. "What Tormund swore, I swear," declared black-haired Brogg, a man of few words. Soren Shieldbreaker bowed his head an inch and growled, "Soren's axe is yours, Jon Snow, if ever you have need of such." Red-bearded Gerrick Kingsblood brought three daughters. "They will make fine wives, and give their husbands strong sons of royal blood," he boasted. "Like their father, they are descended from Raymun Redbeard, who was King-Beyond-the-Wall."

Blood meant little and less amongst the free folk, Jon knew. Ygritte had taught him that. Gerrick's daughters shared her same flame-red hair, though hers had been a tangle of curls and theirs hung long and straight. Kissed by fire. "Three princesses, each lovelier than the last," he told their father. "I will see that they are presented to the queen." Selyse Baratheon would take to these three better than she had to Val, he suspected; they were younger and considerably more cowed. Sweet enough to look at them, though their father seems a fool.

Howd Wanderer swore his oath upon his sword, as nicked and pitted a piece of iron as Jon had ever seen. Devyn Sealskinner presented him with a sealskin hat, Harle the Huntsman with a bear-claw necklace. The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred. And on and on and on.

 

He doesn't force them to kneel to him and none of them do anyway, but many, including some of the fathers(and one mother) of boys taken as hostages, give him their oaths some even present gifts for him and all this they do freely.

 

Sorry the revive this with nothing directly on Val being Jon's queen, but Jon being a king of the wildlings.

[Lord Wraith]

15 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Sorry the revive this with nothing directly on Val being Jon's queen, but Jon being a king of the wildlings.

They may not be mutually exclusive but one will likely help lead into the other.

[Corvo the Crow]

On ‎23‎.‎01‎.‎2018 at 2:46 AM, Lord Wraith said:

They may not be mutually exclusive but one will likely help lead into the other.

Yes, and the reason behind my posting it here. Wish I could connect it more directly though.

[Tagganaro]

What I've found interesting as far as their relationship goes is how Jon describes Val's moods and banter, as Jon keeps using "playful" to describe Val.  Val clearly enjoys flirting with Jon, and it brings out smiles from Jon which happens rarely.  It's interesting to see how Val and Jon's interactions almost seamlessly switch from serious conversation to playful flirting back and forth.  When Jon sends her to go get Tormund, she starts off playful, almost seeming like she's offering to kiss Jon for thanks (Jon literally pulls back from her when she gets too close to him), then gets serious asking about Jarl.  When Jon gives Val the answer she wanted that the Wall killed Jarl:

Quote

"This is farewell, then," she said, almost playfully

This pattern is repeated when she returns with Tormund.  Val banters with Jon and Tormund, essentially inviting Jon to try and steal her (although also promising to geld him), then sincerely and seriously offers to help any way she can with the wildlings and Selyse.  

Val jokes about laughing in front of Selyse, Jon tells her this is serious, then:

Quote

Val's playful smile died.

Shortly after that, Val watches and listens as Jon commands various NW brothers to do various things.  Then Jon requests her presence with Selyse.

Quote

"The crow commands, the captive must obey."  Her tone was playful.

Then Val makes Jon laugh twice on the way to see Selyse, making fun of Selyse's mustache and then completely destroying and belittling Ser Patrek by treating him like a dog.

I don't know if any of this is important, but it's something that stuck out to me that Jon describes Val as playful 3 different times in a short period.

[Light a wight tonight]

The situation between the Wildlings and the North can go a couple of ways, mostly dependent on the Wildlings giving up raiding and other antisocial activities. There don't seem to be all that many Wildlings if they could pass through one gate in the Wall in a day, so they could be settled in the essentially depopulated Gift fairly easily. The rest of the North is also pretty empty, but a good move would be to have them colonize the west coast as a barrier against the Ironborn.

First order of business would be Winter and the invasion by the White Walkers.

But Jon and Val? I don't see this. He's repelled by her attitude toward Shireen, which is a warning that they don't share a lot of social values.

[Lord Wraith]

On 1/29/2018 at 8:51 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Yes, and the reason behind my posting it here. Wish I could connect it more directly though.

Are you familiar with Bran Vras theory on the issue? It might help.

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Queen.html

[Sensenmenn]

On 1/30/2018 at 3:03 PM, Light a wight tonight said:

Jon and Val? I don't see this. He's repelled by her attitude toward Shireen, which is a warning that they don't share a lot of social values.

Social values? No, jon just doesn't understand the dangers of greyscale. Shireen should have been put down she is a danger to everyone around her. They brought a magical plague to one of the most magic rich places in the world. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Jon also puts more trust in Val then just about any other man in Westeros puts in his wife. He obviously thinks very highly of her, on top of being attracted to her. 

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, Sensenmenn said:

Social values? No, jon just doesn't understand the dangers of greyscale. Shireen should have been put down she is a danger to everyone around her. They brought a magical plague to one of the most magic rich places in the world. 

I read this passage differently than yourself I think. It felt like Jon really suspected deep down that Val was right. I read Jon's reaction being more about Val's harshness and lack of feeling for Shireen who's a very sweet child and for her family. I wasn't really shocked by what she said but was quite put off by the way she said it. Not only no acknowledgment of the tragedy of the situation, but cold harshness. 

[Corvo the Crow]

9 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Are you familiar with Bran Vras theory on the issue? It might help.

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Queen.html

I have read it before, yes, but I've taken a quick look at it again since you have so kindly provided the link and something struck me, though again not directly relevant to a relationship between Val and Jon.

 

Quote

3. Mance and Rhaegar

The sight of Val makes a strong impression on Jon Snow.

Her breath was white as well ... but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

(Jon XI, ADwD)

Perhaps Dalla wore these very clothes when she met Mance, and we can believe that the King-beyond-the-Wall was equally struck.

If the apparition of the Knight of the Laughing Tree decided Rhaegar to elope with Lyanna, it would seem that Mance followed a similar course by wedding Dalla and her weirwood sigil.

            We have no proof that Mance's ability as a singer appealed to Dalla, but it seems likely. Here are Dalla and Mance's colors.

A pregnant woman stood over a brazier cooking a brace of hens, while a grey-haired man in a tattered cloak of black and red sat cross-legged on a pillow, playing a lute and singing.

 

Lyanna is thought to be the Knight of the Laughing Weirwood. If it's true, Dalla, the previous owner of Val's Weirwood brooch died in the same way as Lyanna, another bearer of the Weirwood sigil; They both died during childbirth or complications related to it. Moreover considering how close Rhaegar was with Maester Aemon, who was brother to Rhaegar's great grandfather Aegon and since Rhaegar already has a son with the favorite Targaryen name, "Aegon", Jon's real (or intended) name is most likely Aemon as well and guess who else is going to be named Aemon? Dalla's child.

 

For some time I thought that Jon and Val would be together but it will not last since Val will eventually die (and Jon will end up with Sansa in the end). Seeing this two ladies of the Weirwood die of childbirth, it makes me think Val may die in the same way as well;

Quote

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

 

ASOS Jon XII

 

....

"Do you blame me, my lord? Such a prize is not easily won. A nubile girl, I hear, and not hard to look upon. Good hips, good breasts, well made for whelping children."

"Who would father these children? Ser Patrek? You?"

"Who better? We Florents have the blood of the old Gardener kings in our veins. Lady Melisandre could perform the rites, as she did for Lady Alys and the Magnar."

"All you are lacking is a bride."

"Easily remedied." Florent's smile was so false that it looked painful. "Where is she, Lord Snow? Have you moved her to one of your other castles? Greyguard or the Shadow Tower? Whore's Burrow, with t'other wenches?" He leaned close. "Some say you have her tucked away for your own pleasure. It makes no matter to me, so long as she is not with child. I'll get my own sons on her. If you've broken her to saddle, well … we are both men of the world, are we not?"

Jon had heard enough. "Ser Axell, if you are truly the Queen's Hand, I pity Her Grace."

Florent's face grew flushed with anger. "So it is true. You mean to keep her for yourself, I see it now. The bastard wants his father's seat."

The bastard refused his father's seat. If the bastard had wanted Val, all he had to do was ask for her. "You must excuse me, ser," he said. "I need a breath of fresh air." It stinks in here. His head turned. "That was a horn."

ADWD JON X

 

....

 

What had that oaf Axell Florent said of Val? "A nubile girl, not hard to look upon. Good hips, good breasts, well made for whelping children." All true enough, but the wildling woman was so much more. She had proved that by finding Tormund where seasoned rangers of the Watch had failed. She may not be a princess, but she would make a worthy wife for any lord.

ADWD JON XI

...

Why not? thought Jon. They are all convinced she is a princess. Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her. "I must inform the queen of this agreement," he said. "You are welcome to come meet her, if you can find it in yourself to bend a knee." It would never do to offend Her Grace before he even opened his mouth.

ADWD JON XI

 

Edit: Another similarity between Lyanna and Dalla is both of their "husband"s wear black and red and have rubies.

Jon also wears black but so far no red and no rubies for him so no childbirth death for Val... yet.

[Corvo the Crow]

While examples of Jon stealing Val were given before(including myself) I think this one was never given before.

Quote

The king's men were much in evidence in the yards of Castle Black. They stopped as Jon went by, and gaped at him. None of them had ever seen a direwolf before, he realized, and Ghost was twice as large as the common wolves that prowled their southron greenwoods. As he walked toward the armory, Jon chanced to look up and saw Val standing in her tower window. I'm sorry, he thought. I'm not the man to steal you out of there.

ASOS Jon XII

He says he's not the one to steal her out of there, but as soon as Stannis leave, he sends her to find Tormund, stealing her out of that tower.

Quote

"He may not heed your words, but he will hear them." Val kissed him lightly on the cheek. "You have my thanks, Lord Snow. For the half-blind horse, the salt cod, the free air. For hope."

 

[Light a wight tonight]

18 hours ago, Sensenmenn said:

Social values? No, jon just doesn't understand the dangers of greyscale. Shireen should have been put down she is a danger to everyone around her. They brought a magical plague to one of the most magic rich places in the world. 

The people south of the Wall believe that Greyscale survivors are non-carriers, and they've been dealing with the disease for centuries or millennia. The Wildlings disagree. You are assuming that the Wildlings are right, based on what? And why do you say that the disease is magical? Again, evidence?

[Sensenmenn]

30 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

The people south of the Wall believe that Greyscale survivors are non-carriers, and they've been dealing with the disease for centuries or millennia. The Wildlings disagree. You are assuming that the Wildlings are right, based on what? And why do you say that the disease is magical? Again, evidence?

Why do i think its magical? Oh I don't know maybe because people are literally turning to stone. And before you try and claim its a calcified coating to the skin its not. Its hard and heavy like stone when you scrape steel across it it produces sparks. Given enough time it will turn your skin, flesh, blood, bones, and organs to stone. Then there is Garins curse whch is lliterally just that. 

[Corvo the Crow]

Some more food for thought;

Some months ago I asked in this thread that could the unicorn's head helmet be considered a crown of sorts and @The Fattest Leech told me of the belief that Jon may get Robb's crown. It just occured to me today we have a King Beyond the Wall named "Horned Lord". We know that Joramun had his horn which woke the giants but we are never told why the Horned Lord is called as such. Could it be because he was wearing a horned helm, say, like a unicorn helm? If so, among other "kingly stuff" he received (and Mance lacked), he has also received his crown.

 

 

We see Jon as being accepted by the wildlings as their new king, in all but name, If the Unicorn Helmet is also a crown (of the Wildlings), does that mean Jon will get two crowns, Crown of Winter and Crown of the Wildlings, being both the King of the North and Beyond the Wall, merging the two kingdoms? I am very eager to see the two crowns combined like the crowns of Egypt.

 

During "Mance"s execution, we see her crowned with a simple bronze circlet, reminiscent of Robb's crown, a bronze circlet with nine iron spikes. With Val being speculated(by branvras) to have relations to Lyanna through the female line and the fact that in Stannis' eye whoever gets to marry Val gets to become lord of Winterfell could it be that the ancient rulers of the area of Winterfell were a matrilineal line with a simple bronze circlet as their crown with the 9 spikes added much later?

What then, could those 9 spikes mean? Could it be 9 of the larger kingdoms or regions of the North?

My possible candidates for regions and defeated kingdoms would then be: 1. Mountains(Flints of Breakstone hill), 2.Wolfswood (Glover and Blackwood), 3.Stony Shore(Fisher), 4.Rills(Ryders), 5.Barrowlands(Barrow Kings), 6.Marshes(Marsh Kings), 7. The region between White Knife and Hornwood (Lockes, possibly Slates) 8. The region between Hornwood and Last River & Lonely Hills (Red Kings/Boltons) 9. Lonely Hills and lands North of Last River (Umbers).

Just for fun, also comes to my mind, 9 "regions" of Westeros, each a kingdom on their own;

Dorne, Stormlands, Reach, Westerlands, Iron Islands, Riverlands, Vale, North, Beyond the Wall

Use of iron as the swords would also makes sense then, since usage of iron seems to have come after the Andal Invasion, so the iron spikes on bronze circlet must not predate the Andal Invasions.

[The Fattest Leech]

Very interesting stuff here @Corvo the Crow and always good to have more input. Let me get home so I can reply a little better later. 

[Fire Eater]

On 1/29/2018 at 0:17 PM, Tagganaro said:

What I've found interesting as far as their relationship goes is how Jon describes Val's moods and banter, as Jon keeps using "playful" to describe Val.  Val clearly enjoys flirting with Jon, and it brings out smiles from Jon which happens rarely.  It's interesting to see how Val and Jon's interactions almost seamlessly switch from serious conversation to playful flirting back and forth.  When Jon sends her to go get Tormund, she starts off playful, almost seeming like she's offering to kiss Jon for thanks (Jon literally pulls back from her when she gets too close to him), then gets serious asking about Jarl.  When Jon gives Val the answer she wanted that the Wall killed Jarl:

This pattern is repeated when she returns with Tormund.  Val banters with Jon and Tormund, essentially inviting Jon to try and steal her (although also promising to geld him), then sincerely and seriously offers to help any way she can with the wildlings and Selyse.  

Val jokes about laughing in front of Selyse, Jon tells her this is serious, then:

Shortly after that, Val watches and listens as Jon commands various NW brothers to do various things.  Then Jon requests her presence with Selyse.

Then Val makes Jon laugh twice on the way to see Selyse, making fun of Selyse's mustache and then completely destroying and belittling Ser Patrek by treating him like a dog.

I don't know if any of this is important, but it's something that stuck out to me that Jon describes Val as playful 3 different times in a short period.

Anyone who knows people can tell that she clearly likes him. Of course, Jon currently has the same problem as another Lord Commander, Jaime, has with his tough, blue-eyed blonde that he sent off to find someone, Brienne. Jaime deep inside likes Brienne, but he doesn't know it or admit it. He hits Ser Ronnet Connington for insulting Brienne, and he has what Sam would call a "rising" when in a tub with her. He has trouble coming to terms with it partly because of his loyalty to Cersei, and another is that Brienne doesn't fit his image of an ideal partner. Jon, OTOH, admits that Val is an attractive girl, and "she would make a worthy wife for any lord." She manages to make him smile even though "he knew he should not smile, but he did." He has trouble coming to terms with his feelings for Val mainly because of his loyalty to his vows. 

[Corvo the Crow]

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Very interesting stuff here @Corvo the Crow and always good to have more input. Let me get home so I can reply a little better later. 

Thanks! I'm eager to have your thoughts on it.

[The Fattest Leech]

On 2/3/2018 at 0:42 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Some more food for thought;

Some months ago I asked in this thread that could the unicorn's head helmet be considered a crown of sorts and @The Fattest Leech told me of the belief that Jon may get Robb's crown. It just occured to me today we have a King Beyond the Wall named "Horned Lord". We know that Joramun had his horn which woke the giants but we are never told why the Horned Lord is called as such. Could it be because he was wearing a horned helm, say, like a unicorn helm? If so, among other "kingly stuff" he received (and Mance lacked), he has also received his crown.

 

 

We see Jon as being accepted by the wildlings as their new king, in all but name, If the Unicorn Helmet is also a crown (of the Wildlings), does that mean Jon will get two crowns, Crown of Winter and Crown of the Wildlings, being both the King of the North and Beyond the Wall, merging the two kingdoms? I am very eager to see the two crowns combined like the crowns of Egypt.

 

During "Mance"s execution, we see her crowned with a simple bronze circlet, reminiscent of Robb's crown, a bronze circlet with nine iron spikes. With Val being speculated(by branvras) to have relations to Lyanna through the female line and the fact that in Stannis' eye whoever gets to marry Val gets to become lord of Winterfell could it be that the ancient rulers of the area of Winterfell were a matrilineal line with a simple bronze circlet as their crown with the 9 spikes added much later?

What then, could those 9 spikes mean? Could it be 9 of the larger kingdoms or regions of the North?

My possible candidates for regions and defeated kingdoms would then be: 1. Mountains(Flints of Breakstone hill), 2.Wolfswood (Glover and Blackwood), 3.Stony Shore(Fisher), 4.Rills(Ryders), 5.Barrowlands(Barrow Kings), 6.Marshes(Marsh Kings), 7. The region between White Knife and Hornwood (Lockes, possibly Slates) 8. The region between Hornwood and Last River & Lonely Hills (Red Kings/Boltons) 9. Lonely Hills and lands North of Last River (Umbers).

Just for fun, also comes to my mind, 9 "regions" of Westeros, each a kingdom on their own;

Dorne, Stormlands, Reach, Westerlands, Iron Islands, Riverlands, Vale, North, Beyond the Wall

Use of iron as the swords would also makes sense then, since usage of iron seems to have come after the Andal Invasion, so the iron spikes on bronze circlet must not predate the Andal Invasions.

Bumping this to reread and respond to, especially with the renewed Rickon/Skagos information in mind.

[The Fattest Leech]

On 2/3/2018 at 0:42 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Some more food for thought;

Some months ago I asked in this thread that could the unicorn's head helmet be considered a crown of sorts and @The Fattest Leech told me of the belief that Jon may get Robb's crown. It just occured to me today we have a King Beyond the Wall named "Horned Lord". We know that Joramun had his horn which woke the giants but we are never told why the Horned Lord is called as such. Could it be because he was wearing a horned helm, say, like a unicorn helm? If so, among other "kingly stuff" he received (and Mance lacked), he has also received his crown.

Mance is a little funny (don't we all know ).

His personal headgear is a winged helm. Now, does this signify he is symbolic messenger, escape artist, or Odin-y dude? It does not seem to be anything her inherited from anyone. At this point I lean towards #2- escape artist. He escapes the Night's Watch, escapes his death with the Rattleshirt switch, he escapes his captivity by convincing Melisandre that the the girl in grey was near Long Lake, but instead he takes off on his own mission to Winterfell. Who knows how long Mance can keep escaping

The other thing is that we see Mance as a "king" when he is set up in a rather "kingly" site. When we first meet Mance, Jon is taken to a white snow bear tent that has a set of antlers atop the doorway. My slight crackpot is that one day Jon may have to slay Mance (if he is still alive), and in doing so, Jon once again wins the faith and following of the free folk... even though they are already bowing to Jon like a king and have paid him homage as they passed through the wall.

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

There was no doubting which tent was the king's. It was thrice the size of the next largest he'd seen, and he could hear music drifting from within. Like many of the lesser tents it was made of sewn hides with the fur still on, but Mance Rayder's hides were the shaggy white pelts of snow bears. The peaked roof was crowned with a huge set of antlers from one of the giant elks that had once roamed freely throughout the Seven Kingdoms, in the times of the First Men.

Here at least they found defenders; two guards at the flap of the tent, leaning on tall spears with round leather shields strapped to their arms. When they caught sight of Ghost, one of them lowered his spearpoint and said, "That beast stays here."

 

And I say that the snow bear pelts are "royal" in the eyes of the free folk because of Val's description of her new garments when she returns leading the free folk back to the wall with Tormund.

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"That sounds more like me," said Tormund. "Well met, Jon Snow. I am fond o' wargs, as it happens, though not o' Starks."

"The good woman at the brazier," Mance Rayder went on, "is Dalla." The pregnant woman smiled shyly. "Treat her like you would any queen, she is carrying my child." He turned to the last two. "This beauty is her sister Val. Young Jarl beside her is her latest pet."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

"Did you follow me as well?" Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. "Snow," it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

"Have you been trying to steal my wolf?" he asked her.

...

Jon considered. "No. Ask them to join me atop the Wall at sunset." He turned to Val. "My lady. With me, if you please."

"The crow commands, the captive must obey." Her tone was playful. "This queen of yours must be fierce if the legs of grown men give out beneath them when they meet her. Should I have dressed in mail instead of wool and fur? These clothes were given to me by Dalla, I would sooner not get bloodstains all over them."

 

Sidenote: That weirwood pin!!! It is not a brooch as they are often called, but a pin. Jon at one point says Ghost is of the Old Gods, and he and are Ghost are one, so Jon is of the Old Gods.... have any of you read GRRM's story dying of the light??? Do you remember the significance of the "pinning" custom? Goood stuff!

 

On 2/3/2018 at 0:42 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

 

 

We see Jon as being accepted by the wildlings as their new king, in all but name, If the Unicorn Helmet is also a crown (of the Wildlings), does that mean Jon will get two crowns, Crown of Winter and Crown of the Wildlings, being both the King of the North and Beyond the Wall, merging the two kingdoms? I am very eager to see the two crowns combined like the crowns of Egypt.

Ok, slightly new thought in this which was sparked by the recent Rickon/Skagos thread.

What if this is to show that Jon will, indeed, after some tough times and trials, Jon is the one who is able to bring Skagos back in to the fold and protection of the north proper? Eh? Eh? He gets the metaphorical unicorn crown. Or, I don't know, maybe he gets a real one that is ceremonial. All speculation, of course.

On 2/3/2018 at 0:42 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

 

During "Mance"s execution, we see her crowned with a simple bronze circlet, reminiscent of Robb's crown, a bronze circlet with nine iron spikes. With Val being speculated(by branvras) to have relations to Lyanna through the female line and the fact that in Stannis' eye whoever gets to marry Val gets to become lord of Winterfell could it be that the ancient rulers of the area of Winterfell were a matrilineal line with a simple bronze circlet as their crown with the 9 spikes added much later?

One thing we do know for sure is what Catelyn points out about the metals of winter. I tend to think that the phrase "Winter is Coming" means the King of Winter is returning (a different leader than who sits at Winterfell) and I believe this KoW is Jon, and this is the announcement of his return.

I think I have read a little bit of BranVras, but I don't know that I have about Val, or maybe I forgot (sometimes that happens). I see that you mention a theory of his that Val having a relation to Lyanna? I will check that out. I will say that I found plenty of other clues, hints, parallels, whatever between Val and Lyanna myself, so now I am really curious what BranVras says.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn I

Her son's crown was fresh from the forge, and it seemed to Catelyn Stark that the weight of it pressed heavy on Robb's head.

The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say. Lord Hoster's smith had done his work well, and Robb's crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold.

On 2/3/2018 at 0:42 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

What then, could those 9 spikes mean? Could it be 9 of the larger kingdoms or regions of the North?

My possible candidates for regions and defeated kingdoms would then be: 1. Mountains(Flints of Breakstone hill), 2.Wolfswood (Glover and Blackwood), 3.Stony Shore(Fisher), 4.Rills(Ryders), 5.Barrowlands(Barrow Kings), 6.Marshes(Marsh Kings), 7. The region between White Knife and Hornwood (Lockes, possibly Slates) 8. The region between Hornwood and Last River & Lonely Hills (Red Kings/Boltons) 9. Lonely Hills and lands North of Last River (Umbers).

Nice. I can see this.

I don't know that Jon will ever be king of Westeros because he has shown no desire for such a power grab. I am not even so fully convinced that Westeros is going to stand in one piece when things blow over. So to me, this nine regions of the north makes sense.

(For what it's worth to those curious, the ASOAIF north does follow a Norse path, and in Norse myth there are nine worlds)

On 2/3/2018 at 0:42 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Just for fun, also comes to my mind, 9 "regions" of Westeros, each a kingdom on their own;

Dorne, Stormlands, Reach, Westerlands, Iron Islands, Riverlands, Vale, North, Beyond the Wall

Use of iron as the swords would also makes sense then, since usage of iron seems to have come after the Andal Invasion, so the iron spikes on bronze circlet must not predate the Andal Invasions.

I want to say, rather cautiously, that the World book gives some info that maybe iron was around before the Andals, but the mention is small and easy to read past... don't quote me on this yet.

However, I think we also see that the Rhoynar (Nymeria) also had the knowledge of iron before most other people did... which would be another connection to Jon and Val together as the new Nymeria figure.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎4‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 1:43 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

The fourth installment of the theory, since the third one arrived the 21rst page.

From another thread @The Fattest Leech mentioned

 

The previous threads;

 

It was a flimsy capture , but Jon did capture her and since Val did not try to escape or try to kill him nor did any of her relatives tried to retrieve her , so under wildling law they are married .