Bakker XLVIII - Selected to LEAD not to READ

[lokisnow]

(hattip to the Simpsons movie, presciently anticipating our current president)

 

This is the perpetual thread devoted to the works of R. Scott Bakker, primarily the books in The Second Apocalypse series, the first novel is The Darkness that Comes Before, the seventh novel will be published on July 4, 2017 and is The Unholy Consult.  It is currently available for preorder.

This thread is for the series through The Great Ordeal and contains spoilers through that novel.

The series is called The Second Apocalypse and is currently comprised of two sub-series, a trilogy and a quartet. Potentially, there will be a third series, although the author has stated that the quartet completes his original vision for the story. 

The first trilogy of books is subtitled The Prince of Nothing these three books are:

1. The Darkness that Comes Before
2. The Warrior Prophet
3. The Thousandfold Thought

The second quartet of books is subtitled The Aspect Emperor, these four books are:

1. The Judging Eye
2. The White-Luck Warrior
3. The Great Ordeal
4. The Unholy Consult (2017).

 

The Unholy Consult will also include an expanded Appendix/Encyclopedic Glossary. The original Glossary exists currently only at the end of the third book, The Thousandfold Thought. 

Additionally, Bakker has published three short stories, The False Sun and The Four Revelations of Cinial'jin on Bakker's Blog Three Pound Brain and The Knife of Many Hands, which is available for purchase. This thread contains spoilers for these publications. The False Sun is the most discussed work of these three shorts.

Since Bakker's writing uses layers of revelation, newcomers are strongly advised to finish the books before coming here; otherwise the spoilers will rot your soul. Eternally.

Of potential interest, Bakker did stop by the board shortly after the release of The Great Ordeal and did answer several questions.  That discussion can be found here.. 

Most denizens of this thread have also read Bakker's non-fantasy novels Neuropath and Disciple of the Dog, but the spoiler policy is unclear. You are advised to hide crucial plot points in those novels.

Hat tip to Happy Ent for the intro to the thread.

[lokisnow]

I'm willing to change it to Bakker XLVIII - Bakker-roo Banzai

[Gronzag]

I just read this old quote from Bakker:

Quote

A better way to think of the No-God is as a philosophical zombie (p-zombie), of a piece with all the other soulless instruments of the Inchoroi. A perfectly unconscious god, and so in that respect, entirely at one with material reality, continuous with it, and so an agency invisible to the Outside.

  To me that almost confirms that Khellus plans to insert himself as Mog Parau's consciousness. If we are our consciousness, then he wouldn't really lose anything in the process. Also, if Khellus becomes the No-God, does it still mean the end of life in Erawa? And, why didn't Aurang or Shaeonanra try to merge with him themselves?

  Also, if No-God is not conscious, than who (or what) is it that tells Khellus "My war is with God, not with Men"?

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

2 hours ago, Gronzag said:

Also, if No-God is not conscious, than who (or what) is it that tells Khellus "My war is with God, not with Men"?

The No-God as an unensouled mind is sapient but not sentient; it possessing the syntax of consciousness (the 'I' of 'I CANNOT SEE') but despite (or because*) its capacity for indefinite recursive analysis of data it cannot reflectively gather these impressions to form the projection of an ego.

 

*Assuming, along with Blind Brain Theory, that the projection of a self is a product of neglect, and therefore that an entity that can truly apprehend the grounds of its own thought cannot sustain this illusion. Therefore, if the soul in Earwa is necessary for possession of a self, perhaps it operates by blinding cognition to its own grounds. 

 

EDIT: more thoughts - the self-moving soul as the self-negating soul, the circle as its perfect form (form also of the soul trap). God is a circle. Within the circle, all is as in death until doing is struck from the hip of being and the circle is broken. God is a broken circle. The Dunyain aim to become the circle and so become God. The No-God is the circle without soul, the simulation of self-apprehension without apprehension.

[.H.]

3 hours ago, Gronzag said:

Also, if No-God is not conscious, than who (or what) is it that tells Khellus "My war is with God, not with Men"?

It's been my theory since TGO, that the Voice Kellhus hears and the man who looks like him in his visions (sitting under the tree) is Kellhus himself, a la, Saubon reaching back to himself in death.  Recall also that the ciphrang in the "head on a pole" scene tell Kellhus that he has been there before, which would make sense if he precedes himself.  My guess has been that Kellhus directs the Thousandfold Thought from the future.

[Callan S.]

4 hours ago, Gronzag said:

And, why didn't Aurang or Shaeonanra try to merge with him themselves?

That'd probably remove the anti natal effect

[redeagl]

@Darth Richard II that's a manger who have a very good taste! I am surprised.

@Triskan that's my new favourite theory. Pulled into an Inchoroi ark.

 

2 hours ago, .H. said:

It's been my theory since TGO, that the Voice Kellhus hears and the man who looks like him in his visions (sitting under the tree) is Kellhus himself, a la, Saubon reaching back to himself in death.  Recall also that the ciphrang in the "head on a pole" scene tell Kellhus that he has been there before, which would make sense if he precedes himself.  My guess has been that Kellhus directs the Thousandfold Thought from the future.

Mind=blown.

[profgrape]

8 hours ago, .H. said:

It's been my theory since TGO, that the Voice Kellhus hears and the man who looks like him in his visions (sitting under the tree) is Kellhus himself, a la, Saubon reaching back to himself in death.  Recall also that the ciphrang in the "head on a pole" scene tell Kellhus that he has been there before, which would make sense if he precedes himself.  My guess has been that Kellhus directs the Thousandfold Thought from the future.

I'm thinking along similar lines except that I don't think it's the future, per-se, rather, a state of existence that exists outside of time or even, encompasses all of time simultaneously.  The "head-on-a-pole" section in TGO left me thinking that time isn't really a thing in the Outside.

[.H.]

31 minutes ago, profgrape said:

I'm thinking along similar lines except that I don't think it's the future, per-se, rather, a state of existence that exists outside of time or even, encompasses all of time simultaneously.  The "head-on-a-pole" section in TGO left me thinking that time isn't really a thing in the Outside.

Right, that is true.  I think "future" is probably a misnomer, because that Kellhus is a-temporal.  He is both past-Kellhus and future-Kellhus, while also not either one.  Nor is it present Kellhus, who is just another cog in the wheel of TTT.  Present-Kellhus is a meat-sack no different than any other.  It's the a-temporal Kellhus that is the key.

[Corvinus85]

@Werthead

Quote

Negative. The Nail has been around forever, but it flared three years before the Inchoroi arrived. It may be a standing stargate of some kind, or the arrival of the Ark may have caused the flaring through some kind of spatial distortion.

So is the Nail still at the same luminosity level since it 'flared up'?

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

14 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

@Werthead

So is the Nail still at the same luminosity level since it 'flared up'?

No, it went back to its original intensity, I believe. Somewhere it's talked about waxing and waning..

[Werthead]

Interestingly the Nonmen do call the star Imburil, "Newborn", suggesting that at some point earlier it did not exist at all, but it had been around a while by the time of Arkfall.

[kuenjato]

Amazing to think we're 2.5 months away from the release. About 100 pages into TJE at the moment. I've never done a proper re-read of the second series, so it should be interesting to see how the first two books flow into TGO.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

45 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

I've never done a proper re-read of the second series, so it should be interesting to see how the first two books flow into TGO.

Very well, imo. Every reread ive done, I've always picked up on new things and things that weren't clear the first time, come to light from info you gain in the later books. I'm gonna start a full reread in a couple weeks.

[unJon]

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

Interestingly the Nonmen do call the star Imburil, "Newborn", suggesting that at some point earlier it did not exist at all, but it had been around a while by the time of Arkfall.

Was just coming here to post this.  Definietely think it appeared at some point in the not too distant past (whatever that means from a long-lived nonman perspective). 

[Darth Richard II]

OK, now I want Ah-nold to do the audio version for all the books.

[Darth Richard II]

MY EYES!

THE GOOGLES DO NOTHING!

[lokisnow]

The soul that encounters him passes no further.

saubons soul passes no further.

so when did he encounter the nogod?

The plains of mengedda? Seems weak, implying wvery soldier that crossed the plains with him is doomed to the same fate. On the other hand he has encountered kellhus a lot.

So possible point in favor of the kellhus is the no god theory 

[Pino Proxy]

Sorry for the endless barrage of questions, but in TTT, when Achamian says "so you speak of an apocalypse" in response to Kellhus saying "the old world is dead," what does he mean by that (Akka, I'm referring to)? I can't wrap my head around it. Is he saying that by calling the old world dead, Kellhus is dismissing the relevance of the first apocalypse?

Also, I almost cried when Cnaiur and Moenghus embraced, even if it was completely fake on Moenghus's part.  

[LuckyCharms]

48 minutes ago, YoungBoulheim said:

Sorry for the endless barrage of questions, but in TTT, when Achamian says "so you speak of an apocalypse" in response to Kellhus saying "the old world is dead," what does he mean by that (Akka, I'm referring to)? I can't wrap my head around it. Is he saying that by calling the old world dead, Kellhus is dismissing the relevance of the first apocalypse?

Also, I almost cried when Cnaiur and Moenghus embraced, even if it was completely fake on Moenghus's part.  

Despite it's present vernacular meaning, apokalypsis means "great unveiling" in Ancient Greek. So the apocalypse in question is Kellhus's discarding of the old ways, parables etc. etc. and the heralding of the new era.

An Apocalypse is the assertion of some great truth or revelation, though Bakker has commented that the meaning of apocalypse in this series is always jointly a cataclysmic event/destruction and the assertion of some truth.