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Bakker XLVIII - Selected to LEAD not to READ


lokisnow

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Just finished The Great Ordeal. Now my soul is safe from spoilers... at least until the next book, if I fail to read it in time.

Really enjoyed it. Similar to the Prince of Nothing, trilogy, I felt that each book in this series was better than its predecessor. But I have a lot of questions, as once again, a bunch of stuff escaped me, mainly dealing with Kellhus.

No idea what he has become or is becoming. What was up with that "there is a head on a pole" thing? Is Kellhus able to see time as the gods can? Is that why he knew to show up in Momemn just in the nick of time to save the day? And how did he know about radiation poisoning? Still due to the time thing, unless it's something else, I guess.

I wish the Ishterebinth plot hadn't ended in such a cliffhanger. I liked it for the most part, even with the deus ex that is the introduction of the Tall. 

Why is Bakker not killing off Meppa? There might something there with that dude. I keep thinking he has a connection (blood connection perhaps) with Old Moe. And Fanayal got just as an inglorious end as Maithanet did in TWLW.

From both this book and TWLW, I got the implication that the gods are enemies of humanity, as well, and I would say bigger enemies than the Inchoroi. So maybe the Fanim are right to oppose them, but the Fanim, like the Inrithi, are just weak minded folk for the most part, and thus stand no chance to save themselves from damnation.

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59 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

 

I wish the Ishterebinth plot hadn't ended in such a cliffhanger. I liked it for the most part, even with the deus ex that is the introduction of the Tall. 

That was a bit annoying... happily, you only have to wait a little over two months for the resolution. 

Which reminds me that we waited 5 years for answers as to what was up with Ishual. Now that was a slog!

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1 minute ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

And then he made you guys sit through over a hundred pages before Achamian's first chapter lol.

Well, that whole chapter was given out for free a couple months before the book was released (I think April? May?), which means we hopefully will be getting our merest fraction from Pat or Three Pound Brain any day now.

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18 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Not as much as her "consenting" to Galian's rape just to keep the cherry off some Ciphrang's soul-sundae... It would surprise me if that was what the scene meant.

Why? He'd suffer that much more torture for eternity over it, otherwise.

We literally had a text just before it examining his good qualities (through the judging eye, no less), despite his slurry.

It's just another scene to bait the reader into judgement, then undercut it. More Bakker-bait.

 

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3 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Can you expound on this a little bit?

It's bait for the reader to just outgroup Galian - even despite the literally clinical analysis of some good traits in him just before, gleaned through the judging eye. Despite supposed objective morality and the objective eye picking up some good traits in Galian, how does the reader judge him?

So the idea of Mimara trying to do something to reduce his future torture ends up being some kind of moral non sequitur for a number of readers. Bakker baits the reader, so the reader basically advocates torture that is worse than Guantanimo bay for Galian, ostensibly by at least some readership that likes to see itself against Guantanimo.

Or that's my reading. Re read the text; I'm pretty sure she decides to consent to Galians attempted rape, IIRC. It's classic Bakker though - do something outrageous in the small picture that in a larger context possibly makes sense. That's how it was for the consult as well - absolute horror, then their larger context starts to be revealed. Do hope there are classes focusing on the books, in future.

 

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2 hours ago, Callan S. said:

It's bait for the reader to just outgroup Galian - even despite the literally clinical analysis of some good traits in him just before, gleaned through the judging eye. Despite supposed objective morality and the objective eye picking up some good traits in Galian, how does the reader judge him?

So the idea of Mimara trying to do something to reduce his future torture ends up being some kind of moral non sequitur for a number of readers. Bakker baits the reader, so the reader basically advocates torture that is worse than Guantanimo bay for Galian, ostensibly by at least some readership that likes to see itself against Guantanimo.

Or that's my reading. Re read the text; I'm pretty sure she decides to consent to Galians attempted rape, IIRC. It's classic Bakker though - do something outrageous in the small picture that in a larger context possibly makes sense. That's how it was for the consult as well - absolute horror, then their larger context starts to be revealed. Do hope there are classes focusing on the books, in future.

 

On the other hand to worship god is to advocate FOR damnation, per Bakker, so if Forgiveness comes from God (as channeled through Mimara), then there is no difference in Mimara trying to save him from damnation--from the consults perspective she's just maintaining and enabling a different aspect of the damnation system, her acquiescence in order to forgive makes her just another victim of the damnation system.

for what it's worth I don't really judge galian in That scene, I'm judging Bakker, who was choosing to make sure that all his female characters were raped on screen (just like he actively chose to coyly demur from having the viewer equally observe cnaiur raping conphas, criticism of this egregious discrepancy is probably why he didn't also cut away from kellhus raping Proyas, as he would probably prefer to have cut away and then had the readers guessing at it after reading Saubon and proyas post rape conversation. Funny how women have to be raped on screen to illustrate some crucial story point, but when a man is raped on screen it's somehow actively (thus far) pointless. :-/

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It would definitely problematize feminism if the central message is that women should get raped because the alternative is men suffering eternal damnation.

That's definitely a not over-the-top depiction of blue balls, assuredly.

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21 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Mimara granting him forgiveness that the reader doesn't believe he deserves plays on perspective in the same way. The issue that I have with your interpretation, with regards to the feminist critique, is that it puts the onus of the consequences of Galian's act on Mimara, his victim, rather than on Galian himself.

Well, yeah, because men aren't ever in control of themselves. Duh. 

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2 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Rape = bad.

WHAT ABOUT THE OPPOSING VIEW THOUGH

What if there was a world where rape...wasn't bad? But we saw it as bad because of our brainwashed ways? Imagine how the author could play on our viewpoints of rape being bad and not being able to accept rape not being bad - wouldn't that author be super clever! What if the rapers of thousands were the real heroes! 

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