Bakker XLVIII - Selected to LEAD not to READ

[Hello World]

Didn't someone once say that Bakker originally flirted with the idea of making the non-Norsirai races like the Kianene and Zeumi metaphysically inferior? What if that's in there and we haven't noticed it yet?

It just occurred to me that if that was his initial idea maybe it has something to do with why/how the Kianene came up with Fanimry. Assuming that they did and it wasn't some Consult plot or whatever...

[Darth Richard II]

44 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

WHAT ABOUT THE OPPOSING VIEW THOUGH

What if there was a world where rape...wasn't bad? But we saw it as bad because of our brainwashed ways? Imagine how the author could play on our viewpoints of rape being bad and not being able to accept rape not being bad - wouldn't that author be super clever! What if the rapers of thousands were the real heroes! 

Lol, I needed that today man. Thank you.

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Hello World said:

Didn't someone once say that Bakker originally flirted with the idea of making the non-Norsirai races like the Kianene and Zeumi metaphysically inferior? What if that's in there and we haven't noticed it yet?

It just occurred to me that if that was his initial idea maybe it has something to do with why/how the Kianene came up with Fanimry. Assuming that they did and it wasn't some Consult plot or whatever...

Yes, originally he says he thought about making it other colors of skin that were inferior, but he said it was unpublishable. 

Which is depressing in its own right - that it's socially acceptable enough to write about a fictional world where women are spiritually deemed inferior, but it is not acceptable to do so with race. 

In any case, I don't think that's likely the case - to my knowledge Titirga wasn't Kianene, for instance, nor was Shae, and Mimara definitely isn't - but it's a possibility. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I think the Zeum might be the only nation that isn't damned. If we go by Serwe is a cipher for the series, look at who she worshiped as a slave of the Patridomos, their ancestor list. Zeumi do not worship the 100 and their magic involves using totems to give their user power, sounds shamanic in nature, no? I wondered why Kellhus took such an interest in Malowebi's chalice. Also, I believe it's why we only get a cursory glance at Zeum. 

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I think the Zeum might be the only nation that isn't damned. If we go by Serwe is a cipher for the series, look at who she worshiped as a slave of the Patridomos, their ancestor list. Zeumi do not worship the 100 and their magic involves using totems to give their user power, sounds shamanic in nature, no? I wondered why Kellhus took such an interest in Malowebi's chalice. Also, I believe it's why we only get a cursory glance at Zeum. 

Why wouldn't they be damned though?

They don't worship the 100 - neither do the Fanim - but they use ancestor worship so that they can be rescued by their ancestors in the Outside. They still go to the same place - the Outside - and if they aren't rescued, they're buttfloss for the other things there. 

It's not like the shamans weren't damned either. They just weren't Marked and they weren't damned for their use of sorcery. Sorcery ain't the only thing that damns, after all. 

[Kalbear]

Another way to put it is this: there is no indication that who you worship has anything to do with your status as being damned or saved. Mimara is the most holy, for instance, and it's not even clear she's Inrithi, or she thinks Kellhus is god. Damnation appears to be largely dictated by what you do and being judged for it. 

So unless what the Zeumi do is somehow more holy or valued and what they're doing is, uh, special compared to others, they're still going to be damned. And point of fact, their entire religion revolves around believing they will be damned and then being rescued by ancestors; if they aren't damned that basically destroys their entire faith. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Bakker did say there was a right way to believe or worship, so to say. And the whole nations would be damned, I figured the one would have it right. Zeum worship their ancestors as a way to avoid the 100 altogether. And true, I do believe that the magic damna them, but they don't use it as a means of power. It's like Zeum has stayed hidden from everything. I'm sure I'm wrong, it's just a thought relating to Serqe being a cipher. 

[Callan S.]

11 hours ago, lokisnow said:

for what it's worth I don't really judge galian in That scene, I'm judging Bakker, who was choosing to make sure that all his female characters were raped on screen (just like he actively chose to coyly demur from having the viewer equally observe cnaiur raping conphas, criticism of this egregious discrepancy is probably why he didn't also cut away from kellhus raping Proyas, as he would probably prefer to have cut away and then had the readers guessing at it after reading Saubon and proyas post rape conversation. Funny how women have to be raped on screen to illustrate some crucial story point, but when a man is raped on screen it's somehow actively (thus far) pointless. :-/

Just looking at the on screen part for now, how much is it on screen? The text certainly goes into Serwe's feelings on her overall terrible predicament, as one example. But how much more does it give in detail? When those soldiers find Serwe in the forest, granted there's some boob scene - but I think just about as much text is given toward her stabbing and killing one of those soldiers moments latter. I recall Conphas having his face smashed into the table - maybe also his pants being undone (maybe I'm just remembering it that way) and then cut out. Not the sort of text I'd want to go back and hunt down to do a word count on, I grant. But I wonder about the on screen part.

[Callan S.]

3 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Mimara granting him forgiveness that the reader doesn't believe he deserves plays on perspective in the same way. The issue that I have with your interpretation, with regards to the feminist critique, is that it puts the onus of the consequences of Galian's act on Mimara, his victim, rather than on Galian himself.

Why? Mimara seems a living character to me - I could imagine someone forgiving in that way.

I think you're looking at it like it is the execution of a set of morality rules as to who concedes to whom on what.

When Mimara is gaming the rules, not just a cog in an execution of a morality. Kind of like a sorcerer games the rules of Earwan meaning to create their effects.

It's not like an Aesop's fable where the grasshoppers fate shows you should work and store the fruit of your labors like the ant. The text isn't conveying a fable of who has to bear consequences of whom.

Instead, Mimara is writing the story to go the way she wants. Because she's not into torture. She's not just a subject of the story. Possibly why she's in present tense generally, rather than past tense.

 

 

[Kalbear]

Sure, there's a right WAY to worship - but that doesn't mean there's a right person to worship. What's telling to me is that every person that we've seen as damned is damned not because of how they think but how they act and the actions that they personally take. 

Been thinking a bit about the gates comments too - that Mimara is the one who guards the gates, of the gods baying at the gates hungrily. One possible interpretation of this is that the gate is a gate of Judgment, much like the Egyptian version of the afterlife. Mimara isn't just a guard of the gates letting things from the Outside come through (or not), she is also the guardian of those who would go through to the Outside from Earwa. She judges and chooses and takes those who go - or don't. That is the function of the gate, not as a blocker but as a sieve of souls, a logical gate that judges and redirects. 

Right now, the gates are open. No one watches either side. All souls go to damnation. Nothing judges. 

[Kalbear]

Also, today on K6BD we have a good visual representation of the trip down into the depths of Ish. Complete with the clacking noise!

[Darth Richard II]

22 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Yes, originally he says he thought about making it other colors of skin that were inferior, but he said it was unpublishable. 

Which is depressing in its own right - that it's socially acceptable enough to write about a fictional world where women are spiritually deemed inferior, but it is not acceptable to do so with race. 

In any case, I don't think that's likely the case - to my knowledge Titirga wasn't Kianene, for instance, nor was Shae, and Mimara definitely isn't - but it's a possibility. 

Oh please, Calista House would publish that in a heartbeat.

[Hello World]

So MG posted a 4th teaser for The Unholy Consult, 

No idea what this is about... 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

There is a lot in TWP, I think chapter 10 about how witnessing is different than seeing. Kellhus has a convo with Akka and a soldier who seen a dead girl and it bothered him. Also, the Imprompta is the collections of sermons gave during the Holy War by Kellhus.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

There is a lot in TWP, I think chapter 10 about how witnessing is different than seeing. Kellhus has a convo with Akka and a soldier who seen a dead girl and it bothered him. Also, the Imprompta is the collections of sermons gave during the Holy War.

WITNESS ME AURANG! WITNESS

[Hello World]

Whoops... I don't remember much of the early books, hopefully no one takes that comment as 'ridicule'...

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Just now, Kalbear said:

WITNESS ME AURANG! WITNESS

? I'm not getting the reference.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Hello World said:

Whoops... I don't remember much of the early books, hopefully no one takes that comment as 'ridicule'...

To be fair this is the sort of teaser that I did actually request he did, so I'm happy. Even though I know nothing about what it is about.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

? I'm not getting the reference.

For shame, man - one of the best movies in a generation.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

When we was discussing it at SA, those sections in TWP also Kellhus talks a lot about how everything is connected, every soul that is. Reminds you a lot of Koringhus's so-called revelations. Makes me come to the conclusion that Kellhus deduced the same things as Koringhus. But, unlike Koringhus he wasn't absolved of sin, basically the JE is what spurred the Zero-God and Koringhus's "leap".

Mad Max, great movie. Never would have got the reference though.