Bakker XLVIII - Selected to LEAD not to READ

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

I'LL DIE HISTORIC, ON THE SLOG OF SLOGS!

Nice.

 

[Kalbear]

5 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

When we was discussing it at SA, those sections in TWP also Kellhus talks a lot about how everything is connected, every soul that is. Reminds you a lot of Koringhus's so-called revelations. Makes me come to the conclusion that Kellhus deduced the same things as Koringhus. But, unlike Koringhus he wasn't absolved of sin, basically the JE is what spurred the Zero-God and Koringhus's "leap".

Mad Max, great movie. Never would have got the reference though.

Okay, that's cool. A bit hard to square with Kellhus' internal monologue in TGO, but that's cool.

What's with the calls to witness though?

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

Okay, that's cool. A bit hard to square with Kellhus' internal monologue in TGO, but that's cool.

What's with the calls to witness though?

Well a lot is contradictory I seem to think. Read that chapter in TWP and tell me it doesn't remind you of "Pick a point....any point" (borrowing that from another poster).

Well, when he talks with the soldier about the dead girl Kellhus explains how seeing is separate from witnessing. Paraphrasing here, but when one makes a judgement on what they see then that is witnessing. I'll see if I can find the quote.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Well a lot is contradictory I seem to think. Read that chapter in TWP and tell me it doesn't remind you of "Pick a point....any point" (borrowing that from another poster).

Right - the difference in my mind is what Kellhus says out loud vs. what he actually believes is true. I tend to think that what he says is never actually true and is said entirely for convenience, but what he thinks is what his actual beliefs are. 

So yeah, in TWP and TTT he says a lot about how all of us are part of the God and he shines more brightly, is all, but I figured that was simply him manipulating the tenets of Inrithism - not his actual belief. 

 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Right - the difference in my mind is what Kellhus says out loud vs. what he actually believes is true. I tend to think that what he says is never actually true and is said entirely for convenience, but what he thinks is what his actual beliefs are. 

So yeah, in TWP and TTT he says a lot about how all of us are part of the God and he shines more brightly, is all, but I figured that was simply him manipulating the tenets of Inrithism - not his actual belief. 

 

Well, yea that's a great point. But, I think we'll be surprised in TUC as to what Kellhus is actually after and how his thoughts are interpreted, more clearly.

Here's the quote I think is relevant to the teaser.

“I’m not asking you to see,” Kellhus said. “I’m asking you to witness.”

Blank face. Desolate eyes. The nameless knight blinked, and two tears silvered his cheek. Then he smiled, and nothing, it seemed, could be so glorious.
“To make myself …” His voice quavered, broke. “To m-make …”
“To be one with the world in which you dwell,” Kellhus said. “To make a covenant of your life.”

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Funny, that you say that what he says is false and what he thinks is true. That would align with my thoughts that emotions drive Kellhus. In his mind he think how if Esme would die, "His heart would crash to ruin..", in his convo with Moe. But, in WLW he tells Proyas that, "Love is for lesser souls." So, yea, by your line of thinking Kellhus truly did return to Momemn to save Esme and what else he could salvage.

[lokisnow]

2 hours ago, Hello World said:

So MG posted a 4th teaser for The Unholy Consult, 

No idea what this is about... 

I had a gigantic post on the impromptu somewhere in the last year or two. Not surprised it is coming up again.

it is kellhus sermon on the mount (in other words the keystone important most significant sermon) in warrior prophet and it establishes the baseline of watcher and watched rhetoric But with witness terminology

[Lies And Perfidy]

6 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Also, today on K6BD we have a good visual representation of the trip down into the depths of Ish. Complete with the clacking noise!

DELIGHTFUL. Have we ever gotten confirmation on whether Abaddon has read any Bakker?

[Hello World]

Hmm. So I just realized that there is a discrepancy in the What Comes Before sections of the Great Ordeal and previous books. In WLW and JE there is a line that Kellhus was plotting the conclusion of his father's Thousand Fold Thought, but in TGO the line is that he's plotting the "penultimate stage" Moe's TTT.

[Darth Richard II]

Aren't those sections considered unreliable?

[Hello World]

It still doesn't explain why this unreliable section went from saying that it was the final stage of TTT to penultimate.

I don't think this is some huge clue, by the way, just found it interesting.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

8 minutes ago, Hello World said:

It still doesn't explain why this unreliable section went from saying that it was the final stage of TTT to penultimate.

I don't think this is some huge clue, by the way, just found it interesting.

Just might point to a clue that the final stage will occur in TSTSNBN? Taking the Consult off the board could be the penultimate. Also, a clue that Bakker has got the go ahead for TSTSNBN from his publishers.

[Callan S.]

It's like Dragon Ball Z - it's so powerful, you think it's the final form. But then...!

[Kalbear]

And old devils have only one way of lookin' at the world - as meat.

[Callan S.]

Was just thinking, in the warrior prophet or TTT, there's a scene (I think after the fall of Shimeh) where Kellhus is alone and calls out something like "What would you have me tell them" and the only thing described in responce is grubs in trees, insects chirping, w/e.

Do you think he was talking to the zero god at that point?

[profgrape]

12 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Was just thinking, in the warrior prophet or TTT, there's a scene (I think after the fall of Shimeh) where Kellhus is alone and calls out something like "What would you have me tell them" and the only thing described in responce is grubs in trees, insects chirping, w/e.

Do you think he was talking to the zero god at that point?

This is during Kellhus' journey to Kyudea -- one of my favorite parts of TTT.  And there are a couple of points where he seems to be talking to *some* sort of higher power.  

This section has always made me wonder if this is the point where Kellhus has figured everything out, about damnation, the Gods, the Absolute/Zero-God.  That everything after this was just executing his plan.

 

[Corvinus85]

At the end of the Great Ordeal, when Kel cries for his mom, and screws up the WLW's motions, was it really Samarmas that spoke through him? Samarmas was the one that didn't want the WLW to succeed.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

39 minutes ago, profgrape said:

This is during Kellhus' journey to Kyudea -- one of my favorite parts of TTT.  And there are a couple of points where he seems to be talking to *some* sort of higher power.  

This section has always made me wonder if this is the point where Kellhus has figured everything out, about damnation, the Gods, the Absolute/Zero-God.  That everything after this was just executing his plan.

 

I agree that Kellhus has come to the same conclusions as Koringhus. Doesn't feel the same way about it, but knows that its th e God and it sleeps.

[profgrape]

58 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I agree that Kellhus has come to the same conclusions as Koringhus. Doesn't feel the same way about it, but knows that its th e God and it sleeps.

Koringhus' conclusions were no doubt influenced by The Judging Eye.  That probably crystalized things in a way that Kellhus couldn't grasp with the information he had.

[profgrape]

5 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

You're assuming that Kellhus doesn't know about the Eye. I find it very unlikely that he'd spend twenty years digging into the metaphysics of the Earwa and not be aware of it.

Right -- it's likely he knows about it now.  But not at the point in TTT where he's seemingly talking to the God.