James Fenimore Cooper XXII Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 The book is about the long night. The white walkers and the Starks made a pact. Whoever holds Winterfell will be spared by the white walkers. The Starks were good servants and sacrificed people to earn their exemption from the white walkers. They bought their safety like Craster did. Knowing this increased his motivation to kill the Starks and take Winterfell for himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walda Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 On 7/11/2018 at 8:02 AM, zionius said: Just came across explanation of GRRM: Thank you. Reading this has given me a new idea about Bolton's burnt book. It is still, from it's tome-like appearance, yellowing pages and so on, a copy of Malleon or at least, a genealogy book. He is burning it because it contains genealogical information (from three generations back) about the Freys, that is unhelpful to Roose's plan. Roose intends his son to become Lord of the Crossing by the simple expedient of killing everyone between him and Lord Walder in the line of succession. Although he started with Stevron, he isn't doing them in the order of succession. Still, he has a lot more to get through - everyone between Lord Walder and Lady Bolton, and they have to die before Lord Walder if he is to succeed. Lady Stoneheart's efforts play into his hand, in this scenario. I'm not sure if this ties in with Big Walder's ambition to be Lord of the Twins or not. It still seems suspicious to me that Big Walder's cape and gloves were splattered with blood when his cousin's corpse was frozen and covered in hoarfrost, and his blaming the White Harbor men seems a straight up lie. Anyway, because of Big Walder's ambitions, I've done what I think is the order of succession of the Freys, down to Big Walder. It is working a lot on what Big Walder claims ie. that it is first the sons then the sons of the sons, then the daughters in the line of succession (which I have taken to mean, that the daughters share the inheritance between them, when the sons of a particular line are exhausted.) 1. {Ser Stevron} Died after battle at Oxcross 2. {Ser Ryman} hanged at Fairmarket by Lady Stoneheart 3. Edwyn 4. Edwyn’s Walda* 5. Black Walder (refuses to marry, rumoured to have relations with wives of 3,6 *=suspect paternity due to this)6. {Petyr Pimple} hanged at Oldstones by Lady Stoneheart 7. Perra*8. {Aegon Jinglebell} murdered at Red Wedding Catelyn Stark 9. Walton 10. Steffon the Sweet 11. Bryan 12. Fair Walda13. {Maegelle} died in childbirth 14. Ser Emmon15. {Ser Cleos} killed by outlaws 16. Tywin 17. Willem 18. Ser Lyonel19. {Tion} murdered by Rickard Karstark at Riverrun 20. Red Walder21. {Ser Aenys} fell into a pit trap at Winterfell 22. Aegon Bloodborne (outlaw) 23. Rhaegar (envoy to White Harbor) 24. Robert, son of Rhaegar 25. Jonos 26. White Walda27. Ser Jared (envoy to White Harbor) 28. {Ser Tytos} slain Red Wedding, Sandor Clegane 29. Zachery (sworn to the faith, at Oldtown) 30. Zia31. Septon Luceon (in service at the Great Sept of Baelor) 32. Kyra Goodbrook 33. Ser Hosteen 34. Ser Arwood 35. Androw 36. Alyn 37. Ryella, Hostella38. Symond (envoy to White Harbor) 39. Alesander 40. Bradamer 41. Alyx 42. Ser Danwell43. {Merrett} hanged at Oldstones by Lady Stoneheart 44. {Little Walder} found dead at Winterfell 45. Amerei, Lady Bolton, Marissa46. {Ser Geremy Frey} drowned 47. Ser Raymund Frey 48. Robert son of Raymund, training at citadel 49. Malwyn son of Raymund, apprentice at Lys 50. Jaime Frey 51. Tywin Frey son of Raymund 52. Serra, Sarra, Cersei Frey daughters of Raymund 53. Lame Lothar 54. Tysane, Walda, Emberlei, Leana 55. Jammos Frey 56. Big Walder So, there are only 28 people to die before Lady Bolton inherits the Twins, along with her two sisters. 46 still to die if Big Walder is to inherit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zionius Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Walda said: Thank you. Reading this has given me a new idea about Bolton's burnt book. It is still, from it's tome-like appearance, yellowing pages and so on, a copy of Malleon or at least, a genealogy book. He is burning it because it contains genealogical information (from three generations back) about the Freys, that is unhelpful to Roose's plan. Roose intends his son to become Lord of the Crossing by the simple expedient of killing everyone between him and Lord Walder in the line of succession. Although he started with Stevron, he isn't doing them in the order of succession. Still, he has a lot more to get through - everyone between Lord Walder and Lady Bolton, and they have to die before Lord Walder if he is to succeed. Lady Stoneheart's efforts play into his hand, in this scenario. I'm not sure if this ties in with Big Walder's ambition to be Lord of the Twins or not. It still seems suspicious to me that Big Walder's cape and gloves were splattered with blood when his cousin's corpse was frozen and covered in hoarfrost, and his blaming the White Harbor men seems a straight up lie. Anyway, because of Big Walder's ambitions, I've done what I think is the order of succession of the Freys, down to Big Walder. It is working a lot on what Big Walder claims ie. that it is first the sons then the sons of the sons, then the daughters in the line of succession (which I have taken to mean, that the daughters share the inheritance between them, when the sons of a particular line are exhausted.) 1. {Ser Stevron} Died after battle at Oxcross 2. {Ser Ryman} hanged at Fairmarket by Lady Stoneheart 3. Edwyn 4. Edwyn’s Walda* 5. Black Walder (refuses to marry, rumoured to have relations with wives of 3,6 *=suspect paternity due to this)6. {Petyr Pimple} hanged at Oldstones by Lady Stoneheart 7. Perra*8. {Aegon Jinglebell} murdered at Red Wedding Catelyn Stark 9. Walton 10. Steffon the Sweet 11. Bryan 12. Fair Walda13. {Maegelle} died in childbirth 14. Ser Emmon15. {Ser Cleos} killed by outlaws 16. Tywin 17. Willem 18. Ser Lyonel19. {Tion} murdered by Rickard Karstark at Riverrun 20. Red Walder21. {Ser Aenys} fell into a pit trap at Winterfell 22. Aegon Bloodborne (outlaw) 23. Rhaegar (envoy to White Harbor) 24. Robert, son of Rhaegar 25. Jonos 26. White Walda27. Ser Jared (envoy to White Harbor) 28. {Ser Tytos} slain Red Wedding, Sandor Clegane 29. Zachery (sworn to the faith, at Oldtown) 30. Zia31. Septon Luceon (in service at the Great Sept of Baelor) 32. Kyra Goodbrook 33. Ser Hosteen 34. Ser Arwood 35. Androw 36. Alyn 37. Ryella, Hostella38. Symond (envoy to White Harbor) 39. Alesander 40. Bradamer 41. Alyx 42. Ser Danwell43. {Merrett} hanged at Oldstones by Lady Stoneheart 44. {Little Walder} found dead at Winterfell 45. Amerei, Lady Bolton, Marissa46. {Ser Geremy Frey} drowned 47. Ser Raymund Frey 48. Robert son of Raymund, training at citadel 49. Malwyn son of Raymund, apprentice at Lys 50. Jaime Frey 51. Tywin Frey son of Raymund 52. Serra, Sarra, Cersei Frey daughters of Raymund 53. Lame Lothar 54. Tysane, Walda, Emberlei, Leana 55. Jammos Frey 56. Big Walder So, there are only 28 people to die before Lady Bolton inherits the Twins, along with her two sisters. 46 still to die if Big Walder is to inherit. There seems to be some errors in your order, Septon Luceon should be after his niece Kyra. Also you miss sons of the daughters. This one might be more accurate. And here's a complete list (in Chinese, but you can click on each name to visit their entries in the awoiaf wiki) including the dead, septons, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiemal Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 On 7/13/2018 at 11:34 AM, Walda said: Thank you. Reading this has given me a new idea about Bolton's burnt book. It is still, from it's tome-like appearance, yellowing pages and so on, a copy of Malleon or at least, a genealogy book. He is burning it because it contains genealogical information (from three generations back) about the Freys, that is unhelpful to Roose's plan. Roose intends his son to become Lord of the Crossing by the simple expedient of killing everyone between him and Lord Walder in the line of succession. Although he started with Stevron, he isn't doing them in the order of succession. Still, he has a lot more to get through - everyone between Lord Walder and Lady Bolton, and they have to die before Lord Walder if he is to succeed. Lady Stoneheart's efforts play into his hand, in this scenario. I'm not sure if this ties in with Big Walder's ambition to be Lord of the Twins or not. It still seems suspicious to me that Big Walder's cape and gloves were splattered with blood when his cousin's corpse was frozen and covered in hoarfrost, and his blaming the White Harbor men seems a straight up lie. Anyway, because of Big Walder's ambitions, I've done what I think is the order of succession of the Freys, down to Big Walder. It is working a lot on what Big Walder claims ie. that it is first the sons then the sons of the sons, then the daughters in the line of succession (which I have taken to mean, that the daughters share the inheritance between them, when the sons of a particular line are exhausted.) 1. {Ser Stevron} Died after battle at Oxcross 2. {Ser Ryman} hanged at Fairmarket by Lady Stoneheart 3. Edwyn 4. Edwyn’s Walda* 5. Black Walder (refuses to marry, rumoured to have relations with wives of 3,6 *=suspect paternity due to this)6. {Petyr Pimple} hanged at Oldstones by Lady Stoneheart 7. Perra*8. {Aegon Jinglebell} murdered at Red Wedding Catelyn Stark 9. Walton 10. Steffon the Sweet 11. Bryan 12. Fair Walda13. {Maegelle} died in childbirth 14. Ser Emmon15. {Ser Cleos} killed by outlaws 16. Tywin 17. Willem 18. Ser Lyonel19. {Tion} murdered by Rickard Karstark at Riverrun 20. Red Walder21. {Ser Aenys} fell into a pit trap at Winterfell 22. Aegon Bloodborne (outlaw) 23. Rhaegar (envoy to White Harbor) 24. Robert, son of Rhaegar 25. Jonos 26. White Walda27. Ser Jared (envoy to White Harbor) 28. {Ser Tytos} slain Red Wedding, Sandor Clegane 29. Zachery (sworn to the faith, at Oldtown) 30. Zia31. Septon Luceon (in service at the Great Sept of Baelor) 32. Kyra Goodbrook 33. Ser Hosteen 34. Ser Arwood 35. Androw 36. Alyn 37. Ryella, Hostella38. Symond (envoy to White Harbor) 39. Alesander 40. Bradamer 41. Alyx 42. Ser Danwell43. {Merrett} hanged at Oldstones by Lady Stoneheart 44. {Little Walder} found dead at Winterfell 45. Amerei, Lady Bolton, Marissa46. {Ser Geremy Frey} drowned 47. Ser Raymund Frey 48. Robert son of Raymund, training at citadel 49. Malwyn son of Raymund, apprentice at Lys 50. Jaime Frey 51. Tywin Frey son of Raymund 52. Serra, Sarra, Cersei Frey daughters of Raymund 53. Lame Lothar 54. Tysane, Walda, Emberlei, Leana 55. Jammos Frey 56. Big Walder So, there are only 28 people to die before Lady Bolton inherits the Twins, along with her two sisters. 46 still to die if Big Walder is to inherit. That's compellingly plausible. Love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus Snow Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 On 3/11/2018 at 6:17 PM, Seams said: It also interests me that Ned did not have singers come to Winterfell. I'm not sure where Sansa discovered her love of music without visiting singers, either. This is simply not true: Quote A Feast for Crows - Sansa I Once, when she was just a little girl, a wandering singer had stayed with them at Winterfell for half a year. An old man he was, with white hair and windburnt cheeks, but he sang of knights and quests and ladies fair, and Sansa had cried bitter tears when he left them, and begged her father not to let him go. "The man has played us every song he knows thrice over," Lord Eddard told her gently. "I cannot keep him here against his will. You need not weep, though. I promise you, other singers will come." They hadn't, though, not for a year or more. Sansa had prayed to the Seven in their sept and old gods of the heart tree, asking them to bring the old man back, or better still to send another singer, young and handsome. But the gods never answered, and the halls of Winterfell stayed silent. On 3/11/2018 at 7:54 PM, Seams said: And Ned would have been born generations after that singer's visit. And again, nope. @Nowy Tends had that right. On 7/10/2018 at 11:02 PM, zionius said: Just came across explanation of GRRM: Yeah, that was pretty much as I read the passage, because Roose was just casually flicking through the book, not reading it intently with a deeply meaningful expression on his face. It was little and less to him, so as much as I've enjoyed everyone's speculations about the book, it remains just that: speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus Snow Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 On 7/13/2018 at 5:57 PM, zionius said: 1. {Ser Stevron} Died after battle at Oxcross 2. {Ser Ryman} hanged at Fairmarket by Lady Stoneheart 3. Edwyn4. Edwyn’s Walda* 5. Black Walder (refuses to marry, rumoured to have relations with wives of 3,6 *=suspect paternity due to this)6. {Petyr Pimple} hanged at Oldstones by Lady Stoneheart7. Perra*8. {Aegon Jinglebell} murdered at Red Wedding Catelyn Stark 9. Walton 10. Steffon the Sweet 11. Bryan12. Fair Walda13. {Maegelle} died in childbirth 14. Ser Emmon15. {Ser Cleos} killed by outlaws 16. Tywin 17. Willem 18. Ser Lyonel19. {Tion} murdered by Rickard Karstark at Riverrun 20. Red Walder21. {Ser Aenys} fell into a pit trap at Winterfell 22. Aegon Bloodborne (outlaw) 23. Rhaegar (envoy to White Harbor) 24. Robert, son of Rhaegar 25. Jonos26. White Walda27. Ser Jared (envoy to White Harbor) 28. {Ser Tytos} slain Red Wedding, Sandor Clegane 29. Zachery (sworn to the faith, at Oldtown)30. Zia31. Septon Luceon (in service at the Great Sept of Baelor)32. Kyra Goodbrook 33. Ser Hosteen 34. Ser Arwood 35. Androw 36. Alyn37. Ryella, Hostella38. Symond (envoy to White Harbor) 39. Alesander 40. Bradamer 41. Alyx 42. Ser Danwell43. {Merrett} hanged at Oldstones by Lady Stoneheart 44. {Little Walder} found dead at Winterfell45. Amerei, Lady Bolton, Marissa46. {Ser Geremy Frey} drowned 47. Ser Raymund Frey 48. Robert son of Raymund, training at citadel 49. Malwyn son of Raymund, apprentice at Lys 50. Jaime Frey 51. Tywin Frey son of Raymund52. Serra, Sarra, Cersei Frey daughters of Raymund 53. Lame Lothar54. Tysane, Walda, Emberlei, Leana 55. Jammos Frey 56. Big Walder So, there are only 28 people to die before Lady Bolton inherits the Twins, along with her two sisters. 46 still to die if Big Walder is to inherit. I disagree with your calculations here - outside Dorne ALL female claims come after ALL male-line claims are extinguished, so all of Old Walder's sons, grandsons and great-grandsons (in unbroken male lines) would have to go before Fat Walda got a look in. Unjust as it may be to our modern 21st century metrosexual thinking, Big Walder is a LONG way ahead of Fat Walda. Quote It is working a lot on what Big Walder claims ie. that it is first the sons then the sons of the sons, then the daughters in the line of succession (which I have taken to mean, that the daughters share the inheritance between them, when the sons of a particular line are exhausted.) It gets even more complicated with more wives, because the son of second wife comes before the daughter of first wife, again just cos he's male.... and nothing is ever shared, there's always one who has the prior claim. If it comes down to daughters, it's still the oldest who inherits. You are not going to have a regnant Lady of the Crossing without an absolute bloodbath, as things stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 3 hours ago, Rufus Snow said: I disagree with your calculations here - outside Dorne ALL female claims come after ALL male-line claims are extinguished, so all of Old Walder's sons, grandsons and great-grandsons (in unbroken male lines) would have to go before Fat Walda got a look in. Unjust as it may be to our modern 21st century metrosexual thinking, Big Walder is a LONG way ahead of Fat Walda. It gets even more complicated with more wives, because the son of second wife comes before the daughter of first wife, again just cos he's male.... and nothing is ever shared, there's always one who has the prior claim. If it comes down to daughters, it's still the oldest who inherits. You are not going to have a regnant Lady of the Crossing without an absolute bloodbath, as things stand. That is not how it works. Remember the Karstark situation where Jon reminds people that a daughter comes before a brother. In truth the situation depends on who has the most swords backing them, but legally it go's first son and on down the line, then first daughter and on down the line. That is why Tyryion was being married to Sansa and why Ramsay was being married to Arya, they didn't go looking for some distant male cousins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus Snow Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 6 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: That is not how it works. Remember the Karstark situation where Jon reminds people that a daughter comes before a brother. In truth the situation depends on who has the most swords backing them, but legally it go's first son and on down the line, then first daughter and on down the line. That is why Tyryion was being married to Sansa and why Ramsay was being married to Arya, they didn't go looking for some distant male cousins. The Karstack pickle is irrelevant in this case because a brother is not a son... (you have to be clear whose brother Jon means). It would have been more accurate for Jon to have told Alys et al that a 'child comes before a sibling', because given that situation the gender was irrelevant. Alys Karstark has no brothers now - the 'brother' she precedes is her father's brother, ie her uncle (who is therefore not in the direct line of descent of her father). Fat Walda doesn't have an uncle - but shedloads of brothers who ALL precede her, as do all of her brothers' sons. It doesn't go down any daughter's line unless all the sons are dead (and their male lines) - and I was referring to the case where all claims are the children of the previous incumbent as was the case at the Twins. It would only go sideways to a 'brother' (ie uncle) if the previous incumbent had no surviving children (in which case Fat Walda disappears in a puff of logic anyway!). Anyway, I absolutely agree with you on the most important point : sword-point is the ultimate decider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 4 hours ago, Rufus Snow said: The Karstack pickle is irrelevant in this case because a brother is not a son... (you have to be clear whose brother Jon means). It would have been more accurate for Jon to have told Alys et al that a 'child comes before a sibling', because given that situation the gender was irrelevant. Alys Karstark has no brothers now - the 'brother' she precedes is her father's brother, ie her uncle (who is therefore not in the direct line of descent of her father). Fat Walda doesn't have an uncle - but shedloads of brothers who ALL precede her, as do all of her brothers' sons. It doesn't go down any daughter's line unless all the sons are dead (and their male lines) - and I was referring to the case where all claims are the children of the previous incumbent as was the case at the Twins. It would only go sideways to a 'brother' (ie uncle) if the previous incumbent had no surviving children (in which case Fat Walda disappears in a puff of logic anyway!). Anyway, I absolutely agree with you on the most important point : sword-point is the ultimate decider I believe I misunderstood what you were saying a bit originally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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