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14 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

And second, can someone who has it confirm what it says about Lyanna? I read in one of the threads that she rode at rings. 

I can't answer the first question, but as to the second:

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Lyanna proved to be a strong-willed girl who grew into a slender beauty. She was a skilled horsewoman, and practised at tilting at rings.

Interesting that she's described as "slender", which might have something to do with why she died in/after childbirth. Elia was also described as "slender" and was warned not to give birth again after Aegon.

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46 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

Interesting that she's described as "slender", which might have something to do with why she died in/after childbirth. Elia was also described as "slender" and was warned not to give birth again after Aegon.

Thank you! (would it be too much of a bother to ask about Rhaegar, please?)

I don't know if Lyanna being slender had anything to do with her death. Elia was sickly and frail and she managed to give birth to two healthy children and survive both times. I don't think she would have survived given birth in a tower in the middle of nowhere. All in all though, my understanding is that it's the fever that ultimately did her in, not the birth itself. 

But the reason I was asking about Lyanna being practiced at riding at rings is with regard to her father. If he didn't allow her to carry a sword, would he have allowed her to practice riding at rings? In Bran's trip through time, when we get a glimpse of Lyanna and Benjen playing at swords and she sends Ben splashing in the pools, she wants him to be quiet because if Old Nan hears them, she will run to her father and tell. 

If Rickard didn't allow her to carry a sword and she had to practice in hiding, then the odds of him letting her ride at rings aren't all that high, no? How well could she have hidden that from him?

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2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Two questions;

First, is the app considered canon?

And second, can someone who has it confirm what it says about Lyanna? I read in one of the threads that she rode at rings. 

My understanding is that ASOIAF canon consists of the Five published novels, theTales of Dunk and Egg, and the three published histories from the Blood of the Dragon, including the Princess and the Queen, The Rogue Prince, and The Sons of the Dragon. 

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2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Thank you! (would it be too much of a bother to ask about Rhaegar, please?)

I don't know if Lyanna being slender had anything to do with her death. Elia was sickly and frail and she managed to give birth to two healthy children and survive both times. I don't think she would have survived given birth in a tower in the middle of nowhere. All in all though, my understanding is that it's the fever that ultimately did her in, not the birth itself. 

But the reason I was asking about Lyanna being practiced at riding at rings is with regard to her father. If he didn't allow her to carry a sword, would he have allowed her to practice riding at rings? In Bran's trip through time, when we get a glimpse of Lyanna and Benjen playing at swords and she sends Ben splashing in the pools, she wants him to be quiet because if Old Nan hears them, she will run to her father and tell. 

If Rickard didn't allow her to carry a sword and she had to practice in hiding, then the odds of him letting her ride at rings aren't all that high, no? How well could she have hidden that from him?

Lyanna is said (I think by multiple people, but certainly Lady Dustin) to have been a highly skilled rider. I seem to recall the line being something about riding all over...blah blah...half centaur...blah blah... If she did want to ride at rings without her father knowing, I don’t imagine it would be much more difficult to do so than it was to practice swordplay, since she was clearly allowed to ride around the North and Benjen would be a suitable chaperone for such an activity. Ride out to so,ethereal quiet, set things up, simple. Not to say she necessarily did, but her father’s displeasure would not need to be a barrier 

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6 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

First, is the app considered canon?

From Ran:

"It is semi-canon. It contains material contributions from GRRM, and its text was reviewed by him. That said, it is not fully canon because GRRM reserves the right to change details noted in the app when he actually sits down to publish the details in the course of the novels. As a notable example,, his vision of the relationship of Bloodraven to what happened in Maekar's reign changed substantially when he sat down and wrote his contributions for the world book, and we'll be getting the app corrected in that regard."

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/34958-the-asoiaf-wiki-thread/&page=50#comment-7061843

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15 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Lyanna is said (I think by multiple people, but certainly Lady Dustin) to have been a highly skilled rider. I seem to recall the line being something about riding all over...blah blah...half centaur...blah blah... If she did want to ride at rings without her father knowing, I don’t imagine it would be much more difficult to do so than it was to practice swordplay, since she was clearly allowed to ride around the North and Benjen would be a suitable chaperone for such an activity. Ride out to so,ethereal quiet, set things up, simple. Not to say she necessarily did, but her father’s displeasure would not need to be a barrier 

No, I'm aware of all that. I'm just wondering if she wouldn't have to take guards with her whenever she goes riding. She is the daughter of an important man. This is kind of the trail of thought that I'm following, that if Old Nan tattled, then other people might do the same if they saw something.

12 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

From Ran:

"It is semi-canon. It contains material contributions from GRRM, and its text was reviewed by him. That said, it is not fully canon because GRRM reserves the right to change details noted in the app when he actually sits down to publish the details in the course of the novels. As a notable example,, his vision of the relationship of Bloodraven to what happened in Maekar's reign changed substantially when he sat down and wrote his contributions for the world book, and we'll be getting the app corrected in that regard."

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/34958-the-asoiaf-wiki-thread/&page=50#comment-7061843

Thanks for this.

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14 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

It is semi-canon. It contains material contributions from GRRM, and its text was reviewed by him.

It also contains numerous documented mistakes (example: Melisandre's place of origin being Asshai).

GRRM's "material contributions" were, according to his minion on LJ, rendered without much interest on his part while he ate lunch.

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I made him do it while he ate lunch. Yes, he complains when I make him work during lunch.

Notice that the testimony to the app given on that blog entry doesn't even come from GRRM, but from "the most iPhone-literate person in our office."

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  • 2 weeks later...

Melisandre's origin being given as "Asshai" is not an error. The app does walk something of a line when it comes to spoiling things that are not really revealed as of yet. That's one of a number of entries where there was some discussion about how to approach it.

Re: Lyanna riding at rings, that's actually one of the many questions we sent to George which he went through. Question #53 on the list, in fact. @Widow's Watch, my guess is that in GRRM's view swordplay was too masculine and dangerous a skill for Lord Stark to countenance his daughter trying her hand at it, whereas riding at rings is something that doesn't have that same implication because it's not combative (you're not jousting another person) and the risks of injury are relatively minimal.

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3 hours ago, Ran said:

Melisandre's origin being given as "Asshai" is not an error. The app does walk something of a line when it comes to spoiling things that are not really revealed as of yet. That's one of a number of entries where there was some discussion about how to approach it.

Re: Lyanna riding at rings, that's actually one of the many questions we sent to George which he went through. Question #53 on the list, in fact. @Widow's Watch, my guess is that in GRRM's view swordplay was too masculine and dangerous a skill for Lord Stark to countenance his daughter trying her hand at it, whereas riding at rings is something that doesn't have that same implication because it's not combative (you're not jousting another person) and the risks of injury are relatively minimal.

If House Dayne's words are included in our next compendium, I'll buy it.

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9 hours ago, Ran said:

Re: Lyanna riding at rings, that's actually one of the many questions we sent to George which he went through. Question #53 on the list, in fact. @Widow's Watch, my guess is that in GRRM's view swordplay was too masculine and dangerous a skill for Lord Stark to countenance his daughter trying her hand at it, whereas riding at rings is something that doesn't have that same implication because it's not combative (you're not jousting another person) and the risks of injury are relatively minimal

Thank you for confirmation. I've saved the link to this post for future reference.

Besides... now I'm imagining Lyanna pestering Rickard about swords

 "But Da, why can't I try swordplay when I can joust?"

"That's too combative."

"But so is jousting..."

"That's different, you're not combating a person. Besides, it's dangerous."

"But so is jousting..."

"Grrr... /should have forbidden the jousting thing from the get go/"

And I would pay in gold to see Ned and Brandon's faces when they realized who the mystery knight was.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ran said:

Just to clarify, riding at rings is a person riding down a track with a spear or lance to catch rings, as below. Very much a display of horsemanship

 

I know, but thanks for the video. I'll save the link, too, so that I don't have to fish for it next time someone claims that Lyanna absolutely couldn't have possessed the skill :-)

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Riding is never portrayed as something women aren't allowed to do in the Seven Kingdoms. The whole stuff about women losing their maidenhead on horseback also pretty much confirmed that noble ladies don't use a sidesaddle. Lyanna is hardly exceptional in her fondness of riding, if we compare her to Margaery and her cousins. And Daena the Defiant rode at rings, too. It may not have been the most common of recreations for noble ladies, but it seems to have been still within the framework of the spectrum of things that were tolerated.

However, the idea a woman could enter the male arena of a tourney - or actually train at arms, making her equal to men - seems to be seen pretty much as an abomination if we consider the example of Brienne. The only other 'female knight' we encounter is Visenya Targaryen, and she is not exactly seen as a shining example of womanhood. Far to the contrary, actually. And even she didn't ride in tourneys.

The idea that being a dragonrider freed women from the confines of their gender roles turned out to be pretty much nonsense. Most of the female dragonriders turned out to be rather conventional women, especially Rhaenyra and Laena Velaryon.

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Speaking of Rhaegar, despite Aerys supposedly disinheriting Rhaegar of his place as heir to the throne in favor of Viserys, was it ever mentioned as to why he did this, outside of Aerys growing suspicion of his first born plotting his downfall, so to speak? And was this ever put in stone, and made official? Because in multiple chapters throughout the books, Rhaegar is still mentioned in others POV's as the "rightful heir to the Iron Throne". Latest example of this that I've come across , is in ASOS during Jaimie's fever dream. After he's met with Brienne, who appears to be his ally during the dream, Jaimie is opposed by Aerys Kingsguard, Jaimie recognizes them as "his brothers", after they appear, Rhaegar appears, atop horseback with a cloud of mist and grief, with his long hair streaming behind him. And even hereJaimie remembers him as Prince Of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Makes me think that even if Aerys did what its said he did, that his decision would not have been widely recognized and in worse case the realm would have rebelled in favor of Rhaegar over Aerys and Viserys, the beggar king.

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We have to differentiate there between Rhaegar's status after Duskendale - still the heir, but suspected to plot against the king with the help of Tywin and later the Starks -, Rhaegar at the beginning of the Rebellion - unclear, but perhaps rather controversial due to him and Lyanna going underground while the Realm literally burned around them -, and Rhaegar after his return to court - then the supreme commander of the loyalist armies, perhaps even have the office of the Protector of the Realm.

That implies that Aerys turned around there, shedding the whole paranoia about Rhaegar plotting against him (the irony is that he was right there, at least to a point, in his interpretation of the tourney of Harrenhal). We see that beginning when Aerys apparently wanted to name Rhaegar as his new Hand after he fired Merryweather, turning to Jon Connington - Rhaegar's friend - only after he couldn't find Rhaegar.

If Aerys and Rhaegar hadn't reconciled in some way after the latter's return Rhaegar would have never commanded the armies at the Trident. Aerys would instead have given the command to Chelsted, Selmy, or Darry, while burning Rhaegar as the traitor he thought he was. At that time Aerys II was no longer in a merciful mood.

If it turned out that Rhaegar and Lyanna had to go underground because of Aerys seeing the abduction (and subsequent marriage, if it took place) as a sign that the grand rebellion against Aerys II led by Rhaegar was supposed to begin now, and if Brandon and Rickard and their companions had to die because they were seen as Rhaegar's co-conspirators - with Aerys insisting on the execution of Robert and Ned because they were seen as co-conspirators, too - then it is not unlikely that Rhaegar spent the first half of the Rebellion branded as an outlaw and traitor, only returning into the king's peace after his royal father realized that Rhaegar wasn't at the head of this rebellion, nor involved with them in any way.

If that turns out to be how things are then chances are that Rhaegar may actually have not been Aerys' heir for quite some time - until he reconciled with his father.

But the final decision of Aerys II does indeed involve the new heir after Rhaegar's death at the Trident. And there he ignored both Aegon and Rhaenys, and named Viserys the new heir instead. We should have long ago realized that Viserys was the new Prince of Dragonstone when he and Rhaella were sent there, and Aegon and Rhaenys had to remain as hostages against the Dornish in KL.

A king seldom names the child he intends to use as a hostage his heir. That doesn't make any sense.

And there are more than enough precedents favoring proximity over primogeniture if the eldest son of a king dies.

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17 hours ago, Ran said:

Melisandre's origin being given as "Asshai" is not an error. The app does walk something of a line when it comes to spoiling things that are not really revealed as of yet.

From ADWD:

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That was a lesson Melisandre had learned long before Asshai; the more effortless the sorcery appears, the more men fear the sorcerer.

As far as I can tell, the most obvious and common interpretation of this sentence is that she doesn't originate from Asshai.  So it's not much of a spoiler.

The app also has the quirk that unlike canonical chapters, or even the World book, it has no apparent POV through which information is filtered.

From your remark about "spoilers," it seems the app instead tries to present information based on the estimated knowledge level of the fans.  

This makes the app epistemologically similar to the book appendices... which are almost certainly, by GRRM's design, not always correct, such as when they stoutly maintain Jon is Ned's bastard.

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You're resting a lot on her "origin" being given as Asshai. If you look around at some other entries, sometimes you'll notice a "place of birth" is also given. Melisandre lacks that for a reason, too. :)

It is absolutely true that there are things which are following the sort of "surface detail" of the novels, which the appendices generally also do, such as ADwD listing Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen as Robert's children. Depending on where the story is in informing the reader of variance from that, we had to make choices, as with Jon Snow.

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