[TWOIAF spoilers]House Lannister is the bane of the dragon-lords?

[shardofNarsil]

Ok so I have a theory that the House Lannister  is more important in the grand scheme of things than we think .

We all know that it was Jaime who killed the last Targaryen king and thus ended almost 300 yrs of rule of the last notable scion of Valyria.

The Lannisters also acquired the Valyrian sword Brightroar in the century before the doom .

We also know that for some reason the Valyrians shunned Westeros and especially Casterly Rock even though it is the most extensive gold ore system in the whole world and  the Valyrians were bonkers for gold. That might mean that Lannister gold is somehow cursed for the Valyrians and might be the reason for the doom.

And if Tyrion is son of Aerys and Joanna that would be the first time that a Lannister has coupled with a Valyrian(correct me if not first)  and it resulted in a stunted dwarf.

 I think that the Lannisters are like some kind of Valyria deterrent and like the Starks are destined to play a much greater role in the fight against the Rholler, Other or the dragons.

[Lion of the West]

I agree entirely that House Lannister will have a major role to play in the books to come, hence their position right in the middle of things and with many POVs as well as an extended backstory for them. People writing off the Lannisters are, in my opinion, in for a surprise.

[shardofNarsil]

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

I agree entirely that House Lannister will have a major role to play in the books to come, hence their position right in the middle of things and with many POVs as well as an extended backstory for them. People writing off the Lannisters are, in my opinion, in for a surprise.

It would have been much more interesting to see what does the mighty Golden Company does with the Golden Lion alive, but alas the dwarf killed him.

[Lion of the West]

19 hours ago, shardofNarsil said:

It would have been much more interesting to see what does the mighty Golden Company does with the Golden Lion alive, but alas the dwarf killed him.

True that. Although I suspect that the story would have been more boring with a competent leader in King's Landing, not to mention a solid alliance/pact between the Lannisters and the Tyrells.

[shardofNarsil]

On 4/26/2017 at 7:45 PM, LionoftheWest said:

True that. Although I suspect that the story would have been more boring with a competent leader in King's Landing, not to mention a solid alliance/pact between the Lannisters and the Tyrells.

I think it would have been pretty interesting to see how Tywin would deal with the Ironborn Invasion and The Golden Comapany plus the realisation that the Daenerys is alive and has real dragons, plus the Others invasion .He is just the kind of guy you'd want when shit goes down in  all directions.

[snow is the man]

I read somewhere about the theory about tyrion being aery's son and it was said that part of the reason he is so messed up was tywin tried to poison his wife so the child would die but instead it caused his wife to die and tyrion to be messed up

[snow is the man]

I think the lannisters under tywin are the bane of everyone.  I can't speak for the other things

[Ralphis Baratheon]

On 4/26/2017 at 7:15 AM, LionoftheWest said:

True that. Although I suspect that the story would have been more boring with a competent leader in King's Landing, not to mention a solid alliance/pact between the Lannisters and the Tyrells.

I think Varys knew exactly what he was doing when he lead Tyrion to the tunnels that lead to the chambers of the Hand of the King. He wanted Tyrion to kill see Shae and kill Tywin. There was no way Varys was going to let his (f) Aegon and Jon Con go up against Tywin Lannister, it was way to big of a risk. Tywin was simply too good of a commander and leader and Varys would never feel confident enough that his Griffs and GC could beat him. Add to the fact that Tywin would have kept the Reach/Westerlands alliance strong and have Randyll Tarly on his side and the GC's and (f)Aegon's chances would be even worse, even with the Iron Born raiding the Reach.

[Prof. Cecily]

Interesting thinking, @Ralphis Baratheon, especially in light of the epilogue of ADWD.

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

6 hours ago, snow is the man said:

I think the lannisters under tywin are the bane of everyone.

They certainly are the bane of the Lannisters. Whang!

[Rusty Winchester]

8 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I think Varys knew exactly what he was doing when he lead Tyrion to the tunnels that lead to the chambers of the Hand of the King. He wanted Tyrion to kill see Shae and kill Tywin. There was no way Varys was going to let his (f) Aegon and Jon Con go up against Tywin Lannister, it was way to big of a risk. Tywin was simply too good of a commander and leader and Varys would never feel confident enough that his Griffs and GC could beat him. Add to the fact that Tywin would have kept the Reach/Westerlands alliance strong and have Randyll Tarly on his side and the GC's and (f)Aegon's chances would be even worse, even with the Iron Born raiding the Reach.

I am in full agreement with you hear. Was listening to the audio book the other day and it's really interesting how easily Varys rolls over and gives Tyrion all the info he needs to go and off Tywin. It's basically like a finger wag and a I don't think you should do this, but if you are going to, this is exactly how one would do it. It's not like Tyrion has any chips, or power to sway Varys over at this stage.  Varys could easily just say no and the actually only options Tyrion would have would be to refuse to leave (stupid) try to assault Varys physically (not convinced that would go well for him either, or shut up and do what he's told.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

14 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I think Varys knew exactly what he was doing when he lead Tyrion to the tunnels that lead to the chambers of the Hand of the King. He wanted Tyrion to kill see Shae and kill Tywin. There was no way Varys was going to let his (f) Aegon and Jon Con go up against Tywin Lannister, it was way to big of a risk. Tywin was simply too good of a commander and leader and Varys would never feel confident enough that his Griffs and GC could beat him. Add to the fact that Tywin would have kept the Reach/Westerlands alliance strong and have Randyll Tarly on his side and the GC's and (f)Aegon's chances would be even worse, even with the Iron Born raiding the Reach.

 

I agree with what you say, but I think Varys is not that much omnipotent to expect Tyrion to act in the exact way he did. Even without Tyrion killing him, I'm sure Varys already planned to get rid of him one way or another.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

9 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

I agree with what you say, but I think Varys is not that much omnipotent to expect Tyrion to act in the exact way he did. Even without Tyrion killing him, I'm sure Varys already planned to get rid of him one way or another.

Yeah I'm sure Varys had back up plans but was hoping Tyrion would take care of Tywin for him. If that didn't work because Tyrion lost his nerve or got caught he would have figured out some other way to deal with Tywin. 

[Lion of the West]

On 2017-05-01 at 4:48 AM, shardofNarsil said:

I think it would have been pretty interesting to see how Tywin would deal with the Ironborn Invasion and The Golden Comapany plus the realisation that the Daenerys is alive and has real dragons, plus the Others invasion .He is just the kind of guy you'd want when shit goes down in  all directions.

Indeed. Odds are, in my opinion, that the enemies of King Tommen would have a much harder struggle and less chance to drive a wedge and bring Houses over to their side with Tywin around. Without the debacles that Cersei does, like building and losing a whole fleet to piss of the Iron Bank, then the Iron Throne would also be in a much better situation to handle various pretenders coming ashore.

[Lion of the West]

On 2017-05-01 at 5:44 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I think Varys knew exactly what he was doing when he lead Tyrion to the tunnels that lead to the chambers of the Hand of the King. He wanted Tyrion to kill see Shae and kill Tywin. There was no way Varys was going to let his (f) Aegon and Jon Con go up against Tywin Lannister, it was way to big of a risk. Tywin was simply too good of a commander and leader and Varys would never feel confident enough that his Griffs and GC could beat him. Add to the fact that Tywin would have kept the Reach/Westerlands alliance strong and have Randyll Tarly on his side and the GC's and (f)Aegon's chances would be even worse, even with the Iron Born raiding the Reach.

Sorry for the double post.

I agree that Varys was most likely planning to get rid of Tywin, just like he himself used a crossbow to get rid of Kevan, in order to pave the way for Aegon and the Golden Company. The whole deal with everything fitting so perfectly to trigger Tyrion, and there just being a crossbow for him to use, speaks volumes in my mind of Varys' plots.

[norwaywolf123]

Which Lannister are likely to have future influence? Many Lannisters are already dead or spent.

[estermonty python]

Apologies in advance for the cold water I'm about to throw on this.

On 4/25/2017 at 11:26 AM, shardofNarsil said:

The Lannisters also acquired the Valyrian sword Brightroar in the century before the doom .

This is actually right in line with the little we know about other valyrian swords:

The Doom happened in 114 BC.  We are in 300 AC right now.  So that means the Lannisters acquired Brightroar roughly 514 years ago, give or take.

Heartsbane has been in the Tarly family "about 500 years"

Longclaw has been in House Mormont for "about 500 years"

The "new" Ice was obtained by House Stark about 417 years ago.

What happened 500 years ago that led to the influx of valyrian steel weapons into Westeros is a mystery, but Brightroar seems to be about the same age as Longclaw, Heartsbane, and Ice.

On 4/25/2017 at 11:26 AM, shardofNarsil said:

We also know that for some reason the Valyrians shunned Westeros and especially Casterly Rock even though it is the most extensive gold ore system in the whole world and  the Valyrians were bonkers for gold. That might mean that Lannister gold is somehow cursed for the Valyrians and might be the reason for the doom.

That's a bit of a leap.  It's true that the Valyrians didn't seem overly interested in Westeros, although the Velaryons and Celtigars did settle there before the Targaryens.  A much more plausible explanation is simply that Casterly Rock is on the other side of Westeros, so Valyrian explorers would have had to sail all the way south, around Dorne, and up past the pirates of the Iron Islands just to get to Casterly Rock.  That's pretty tough to do without a good reason.

On 4/25/2017 at 11:26 AM, shardofNarsil said:

And if Tyrion is son of Aerys and Joanna that would be the first time that a Lannister has coupled with a Valyrian(correct me if not first)  and it resulted in a stunted dwarf.

 I think that the Lannisters are like some kind of Valyria deterrent and like the Starks are destined to play a much greater role in the fight against the Rholler, Other or the dragons.

So, one important and ironic thing to note about the Lannisters is that they aren't exactly pureblood.  Their first men origins come from a servant tricking the women of the royal household into sleeping with him.  And today's Lannisters aren't the same as the ancient Lannisters anyway - technically they are Lyddens.  You're right that Tyrion's dwarfism is a piece of evidence that weighs in favor of the 'Tyrion is a Targ" theory, because Targs have a lot of physically stunted monstrosities in their family history.  But that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with his Lannister ancestry.  After all, the Targs didn't have babies with lots of houses - one might even say that the number of houses they didn't have babies with far exceeds the number that they did.  As in pretty much all of them, other than Velaryon, Blackwood, and a couple of discrete exceptions.

 

It seems pretty clear that the surviving Lannisters will have an important role to play, but I'm not sure that's necessarily going out on a limb. 

[Lion of the West]

I would say that Jamie will have a future as long as someone connected with House Baratheon holds the Iron Throne, barring Stannis, and Cersei has a future as long as one of her children are on the throne. To that Devan, Genna, Damion and so on may or may not have a good shot but at the moment they are set up in pretty good positions as; Warden of the West, Lady of Riverrun (and a major link to House Frey) and Castellan of Casterly Rock respectively to importance in the future conflicts. But it all naturally cam change by the actions done on a single page in the "Winds of Winter".

[Aegon1FanBoy]

I would agree too if Tywin was in charge but i agree i do feel Jamie and Tyrion have a big role to play further i know Moqquro proclaimed Tyrion casting a large shadow. I just feel Jamie is the one to steal the show