Evil People

[Darkstream]

12 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

 And yes I consider Sandor Clegane evil for running down a child and slicing him in half, hopefully he dies a very painful death soon. 

I'm not sure that you get your wish, as Sandor's story is almost certainly not over, and his character is clearly on a redemptive arch.

And not to defend his actions, and I'm sure it won't matter to you, but Mycas' death is more on Jofrey, Cercei, and the society that they live in than on Sandor. Sure it was a brutal and sickening way to go about it, but the butcher's boy was already destined for death, knowing Cercei, and by the laws of Westeros.

[Helikzhan]

16 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Robb Stark is one of the only few who justifiably started a war for the right reasons. 

I don't like Robert's Rebellion and don't justify it but Ned and Robert had a right to defend themselves plus Aerys and Jon started that war. 

And yes I consider Sandor Clegane evil for running down a child and slicing him in half, hopefully he dies a very painful death soon. 

And knowing more about said characters will not make them less evil or more understanding in my eyes. GRRM could write 100 books about Tywin and I'll still think he's evil for Elia, Aegon, Rhaenys, Tysha, Kings Landing, the Riverland smallfolk, Tyrion, the innocent Reyne and Tarbeck household and babies, for creating Jaime and Cersei and other horrible evil Im sure he has committed but we don't know about. Tywin was evil, no amount of information on him will ever change that same with Gregor, Ramsey, Roose, Walder, Littlefinger. 

 

 

Robb Stark's war is no more justified than Renly's war. That's the whole point. People acting on their emotions putting thousands of others in direct harm. They act because of forces outside of their control (Ned's beheading, Robert's mauling, Stannis' principles and Cersei's incest). Each of these characters believed what they were doing was right. Even Tywin Lannister did what he thought was right in usurping the Mad King based on a long history between the two of them. 

All of them act according to the external forces imposed on them. The mere fact that the current game was engineered by Varys and Baelish should explain how this works. These people were observed over a very long time. Their emotional weaknesses were illuminated and their actions predictable. To the extent two lowborn spymasters could rig the biggest explosion in the kingdom. 

 

Who started what is not that easy. The Starks chose to join Robert following the event of L+R. It was Robert's hatred of Rhaegar and his love of Lyanna that caused that war. 

[The Wolves]

19 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

I'm not sure that you get your wish, as Sandor's story is almost certainly not over, and his character is clearly on a redemptive arch.

And not to defend his actions, and I'm sure it won't matter to you, but Mycas' death is more on Jofrey, Cercei, and the society that they live in than on Sandor. Sure it was a brutal and sickening way to go about it, but the butcher's boy was already destined for death, knowing Cercei, and by the laws of Westeros.

See this is something I can somewhat understand but I don't forgive child death(except Joffery that was for the greater good) in anyway so I refuse to forgive or sympathize with Sandor. 

[Darkstream]

21 minutes ago, Helikzhan said:

Who started what is not that easy. The Starks chose to join Robert following the event of L+R. It was Robert's hatred of Rhaegar and his love of Lyanna that caused that war. 

I'm not so sure that's very accurate either. There were many aspects that lead to the war, much that occurred before, and without Robert's involvement. Brandon's actions were surely more detrimental to a peaceful resolution of the situation. Robert's hand was forced, and he only got involved after Aerys had called for his head. His hatred for Rhaegar, and his faux love of Lyanna played no part in the events that caused the war; more so, they were a result of the events responsible for starting the war.

 

[Darkstream]

5 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

See this is something I can somewhat understand but I don't forgive child death in anyway so I refuse to forgive or sympathize with Sandor. 

Fair enough, and understandable. He did have the option to just catch Myca, and let Ser Ilyn do the deed. I'm certainly not trying to excuse his participation in such a vile act.

[Helikzhan]

1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

his faux love of Lyanna played no part in the events that caused the war;

 

Yeah, it did though. It's not well explained but Brandon acted on news of what he heard. That Lyanna was abducted. It wasn't possible that she left on her own terms and I'm certain the word of Robert played some part in that decision. Which probably explains why Aerys II wanted Robert's head. 

[Darkstream]

9 minutes ago, Helikzhan said:

 

Yeah, it did though. It's not well explained but Brandon acted on news of what he heard. That Lyanna was abducted. It wasn't possible that she left on her own terms and I'm certain the word of Robert played some part in that decision. Which probably explains why Aerys II wanted Robert's head. 

I'm sure Robert wasn't very pleased, to say the least, but there is nothing in the text to indicate that he influenced Brandon in any way. And I'm quite sure that he was acting of his own volition, out of his own love of his sister, not because of Robert's love. Do you think Brandon would be OK with the situation if Robert had no feelings for Lyanna?

[Helikzhan]

19 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

I'm sure Robert wasn't very pleased, to say the least, but there is nothing in the text to indicate that he influenced Brandon in any way. And I'm quite sure that he was acting of his own volition, out of his own love of his sister, not because of Robert's love. Do you think Brandon would be OK with the situation if Robert had no feelings for Lyanna?

 

This is where it gets tricky. GRRM did not write in the details on why the Starks jumped to the conclusion that she was abducted. Especially given the quaint associations Lyanna and Rhaegar had in the past. It seems strange but it's likely GRRM didn't want to spoil his own story. It however is assumed by the future behavior of Robert that he believed more than anyone she was abducted and Robert did have the ear of the Starks. It would come down to who notified Brandon that she was missing and had been abducted by Rhaegar. 

But we can also reasonably assume that something was out of the ordinary and Brandon would investigate it. However he went to the red keep and demanded Rhaegar to come out and die. That tells me his head was filled with the abduction line well before he arrived.

[Darkstream]

5 minutes ago, Helikzhan said:

That tells me his head was filled with the abduction line well before he arrived.

I would agree with this, however, I'm not sure how he would come on this information through Robert, who was secluded from the events happening, tucked away up in the Eyrie.

[Helikzhan]

3 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

I would agree with this, however, I'm not sure how he would come on this information through Robert, who was secluded from the events happening, tuck away up in the Eyrie.

 

It takes time for man, horse and crow to travel. Crow is faster than both man and horse. This leads me to believe the abduction narrative grew from the time she was reported missing to the time Brandon arrived in KL. 

[Darkstream]

9 minutes ago, Helikzhan said:

 

It takes time for man, horse and crow to travel. Crow is faster than both man and horse. This leads me to believe the abduction narrative grew from the time she was reported missing to the time Brandon arrived in KL. 

Sure, but why would Brandon, who is presumably in the Riverlands area, be getting info on Lyanna's disappearance from Robert, who is in the Eyrie? And it's not like Robert and Brandon were close, like Ned and Robert were. I doubt the two would be in contact with each other.

As well, even if Robert was in his ear, I'm sure Brandon would have acted the same either way, his concern for his sister would be enough motivation without Robert's thoughts on the matter. Robert could have been in some whore house far off in the Summer Isles, it still wouldn't diminish Brandon's love and concern for his sister, and he was still going to do whatever he could to find and get her back.

[Helikzhan]

11 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Sure, but why would Brandon, who is presumably in the Riverlands area, be getting info on Lyanna's disappearance from Robert, who is in the Eyrie? And it's not like Robert and Brandon were close, like Ned and Robert were. I doubt the two would be in contact with each other.

As well, even if Robert was in his ear, I'm sure Brandon would have acted the same either way, his concern for his sister would be enough motivation without Robert's thoughts on the matter. Robert could have been in some whore house far off in the Summer Isles, it still wouldn't diminish Brandon's love and concern for his sister, and he was still going to do whatever he could to find and get her back.

 

The interesting bit to me is that Brandon went to KL looking for Rhaegar to die. Not so much that he went at all. I get that part. 

[Darkstream]

6 minutes ago, Helikzhan said:

The interesting bit to me is that Brandon went to KL looking for Rhaegar to die. Not so much that he went at all. I get that part. 

And that to me, speaks of Brandon's hot headed and reckless nature. It's well within his character to heedlessly make assumptions, and go charging into King's Landing making foolish demands. Robert or no, war was inevitable once Brandon learned of Lyanna's disappearance/kidnapping.

[Helikzhan]

20 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

And that to me, speaks of Brandon's hot headed and reckless nature. It's well within his character to heedlessly make assumptions, and go charging into King's Landing making foolish demands. Robert or no, war was inevitable once Brandon learned of Lyanna's disappearance/kidnapping.

 

It's possible that's all there is. I just don't buy it. Lots of time passed between the tourney and the disappearance (a year I believe). Brandon saw the union as a stain on his name but to charge into KL that way tells me there was more the story than we know so far.

[The Wolves]

55 minutes ago, Helikzhan said:

 

It's possible that's all there is. I just don't buy it. Lots of time passed between the tourney and the disappearance (a year I believe). Brandon saw the union as a stain on his name but to charge into KL that way tells me there was more the story than we know so far.

A year did not pass between the tourney and the abduction it was most likely a few weeks or a few months but not a year. 

[ftheking]

8 hours ago, Helikzhan said:

I think it important to point out that for all the characters in the book, evil is most ascribed to characters we know the least about. That is no coincidence. 

Good grief you can't be serious. We don't know enough about the Mountain? We know about how many rapes, murders and other astrocities? We are not in his head so we can't know if like Tyrion he also once was an abusive arsehole to a sex slave, who will remember him and retch .... We also wouldn't care, because it wouldn't even come close to his top 100 evil acts. We care that Tyrion does it because we root for him or want to root for him or think we are suppossed to root for him. Or imagine the Mountain murdered that dbag singer Dareon and stole his boots. You wouldn't even shrug. When our hero Arya does it we take notice. If the Mountain did it, we would wonder if he is becoming nice, because everything else we read about him was 10 times worse.

I can't believe so many people pride themselves for not knowing the distinction between evil and "once did something wrong". This is actually important, because the latter group of criminals deserve to be given a second chance for the good of humankind and for being a civilized society, while people like the Mountain and Ramsay and Charles Manson need to be locked the hell away forever (if alive). You don't have to use the term evil in real life, but you should understand that some people are irredeemable and others are not. And them having a horrible childhood is sad, but it doesn't change what they are now. 

[Armand Gargalen]

54 minutes ago, ftheking said:

 

I can't believe so many people pride themselves for not knowing the distinction between evil and "once did something wrong". This is actually important, because the latter group of criminals deserve to be given a second chance for the good of humankind and for being a civilized society, while people like the Mountain and Ramsay and Marylin Manson need to be locked the hell away forever (if alive). You don't have to use the term evil in real life, but you should understand that some people are irredeemable and others are not. And them having a horrible childhood is sad, but it doesn't change what they are now. 

I think I may be included in the group of people you mention. As I said, I do not believe there is "evil" people, or, at least, that no  human being has the capacity to pass that kind of judgement on another human being.

That is not to say that certain individuals, who display no remorse for their acts of violence, and who are clearly going to keep committing them in the short or medium term, should not be locked away. But not because they are "evil" or "irredeemable", just because their potential victims need to be protected form them. I still pity these individuals, though.

Curiously enough, Robb Stark is still directly responsible for more deaths than the trio you mentioned (especially Marylin Manson, who is just an artist whose only  known "crime" is to have taken the name of a famous murderer, Charles Manson )  and at no point did he display doubt, remorse or intention to change his actions. By no modern standards that I am aware of, the legal execution of a parent is a valid justification for war.  Should Robb have been locked away or removed form power, at least until he realized the dire consequences of his deccisions as Lord of WF? 

 

[ftheking]

 

1 hour ago, Armand Gargalen said:

Curiously enough, Robb Stark is still directly responsible for more deaths than the trio you mentioned (especially Marylin Manson, who is just an artist whose only  known "crime" is to have taken the name of a famous murderer, Charles Manson )  and at no point did he display doubt, remorse or intention to change his actions. By no modern standards that I am aware of, the legal execution of a parent is a valid justification for war.  Should Robb have been locked away or removed form power, at least until he realized the dire consequences of his deccisions as Lord of WF?

LOL yes, I had edidet that! Though they did say he caused the Columbine school shooting... which brings us to the point that what they "caused" is almost irrelevant to judging a person's morals. Intent, motivation and remorse are crucial.

[Tianzi]

12 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Robb Stark is one of the only few who justifiably started a war for the right reasons. 

That's right (and no 'modern standards' apply here, by those we shouldn't agree to him being a feudal lord basically owning his subjects). Vengeance is one thing, but disagreeing to be a subject of a mad Lannister usurper who was completely valid.

Plus, he didn't want the IT, but to secede (with full support of the lords of his kingdom), so we as well can throw some war responsibility on the IT contestants who didn't want to pact with him.

And yes, Renly was evil, evil twice, cause he betrayed not only Stannis, but also Joff (as he didn't believe that Cersei's kids were bastards) and went on war not for any justice/goal for the kingdom's wellness, but out of vanity and greed.

12 hours ago, The Wolves said:

GRRM could write 100 books about Tywin and I'll still think he's evil

I don't think he was intended to be seen as anything else. His gimmick was that a completely evil, but pragmatic and competent person's rule could be still beneficial for the system, even if not for the people in his direct orbite.

[300 H&H Magnum]

13 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Robb Stark is one of the only few who justifiably started a war for the right reasons. 

Maybe, but the only justifiable war in the current timeline is Dany's war against slavery. 

I don't like Robert's Rebellion and don't justify it but Ned and Robert had a right to defend themselves plus Aerys and Jon started that war.

Robert's Rebellion was a war over principles, but I do not believe it was justifiable.  To save the lives of two men, one of whom was guilty of plotting to replace his king, and it resulted in the deaths of thousands, thousands of farms destroyed.  It was not justifiable.  Best to just surrender Ned and Robert.  Ned may be a reluctant part of the Southron Conspiracy and I feel bad for him, but Robert was being set up to be the next king.  Robert was not innocent and he deserved death.

And yes I consider Sandor Clegane evil for running down a child and slicing him in half, hopefully he dies a very painful death soon. 

That was a bad thing that Sandor did.  Was that his only legal option?  Why not arrest the child and bring him to Robert for judgment?  If he was specifically ordered by the king to do it then he had no choice and gets a pass from me.  Still, it was awful, but sometimes we sacrifice our humanity to enforce the code and following the code serves the greater need more ofthen than not.

And knowing more about said characters will not make them less evil or more understanding in my eyes. GRRM could write 100 books about Tywin and I'll still think he's evil for Elia, Aegon, Rhaenys, Tysha, Kings Landing, the Riverland smallfolk, Tyrion, the innocent Reyne and Tarbeck household and babies, for creating Jaime and Cersei and other horrible evil Im sure he has committed but we don't know about. Tywin was evil, no amount of information on him will ever change that same with Gregor, Ramsey, Roose, Walder, Littlefinger.