Who is Haldon Halfmaester?

[asongofheresy]

9 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Women can pay attention to effiminate boys. Doesn't prove that Alleras is an actual boy. Women can learn to shoot with bows, and in Alleras' case, not shooting apples on a maid's head, but on nobody's head (maybe that's another hint). Alleras has a widow peak and black curls, and a soft smile, slight figure and arms (not male muscles), has a Dornish drawl, always smiling as if enjoying a personal secret. 

Lazy Leo's comment about bathing is used to insult someone else, not one where he actually witnessed Alleras bathing. And bathing by itself is a reference to the water gardens in Dorne.

George isn't too difficult with his hints on identities as some readers assume he is, because the purpose of the alternate identities isn't so much to keep it a mystery for the reader to figure out, but by the characer to hide his or her true identity from other in-world characters. You could predict from miles away in aFfC by the mention of Bloodraven that Bran would end up with him.

Still not convinced sorry, there is also the fact Arya being Arry and Gendry noticing who she is, Jon and the Wildling girls who disguise as boys. In Arya's case it was peeing that gave her away but Jon just looks at two little girls and is like nope they are female. How did Alleras managed to hide he is female when we know he isn't a child like Arya but old enough to have to her periods? What will he do if there was blood stains? "Oops...?" What if she is busty? Does she constantly bind herself to hide her breasts? Which is uncomfortable.

Your clues is why I said Alleras it too in your face. 

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Still not convinced sorry, there is also the fact Arya being Arry and Gendry noticing who she is, Jon and the Wildling girls who disguise as boys. In Arya's case it was peeing that gave her away but Jon just looks at two little girls and is like nope they are female. How did Alleras managed to hide he is female when we know he isn't a child like Arya but old enough to have to her periods? What will he do if there was blood stains? "Oops...?" What if she is busty? Does she constantly bind herself to hide her breasts? Which is uncomfortable.

Some guys aren't fooled, most are. Gendry and Jon are more observant than most. It took Hot Pie as far as the Inn where the BwB took them to learn she was a girl. In Gendry's case he kept her secret. So, it's possible that some young man realized that Alleras is a woman, but just isn't revealing it. Lazy Leo and Marwyn imo know. Lazy Leo is hinting at it with wanting Arbor gold, wanting Alleras to pay, the bathing remark, and reminding her she's got another link of her chain. Marwyn doesn't care. Lazy Leo sounds like extorting her. He's keeping her secret, but wants her to pay for it, so she can finish her chain. She's beein with them a year and finsihed three links so far.

I do not think Alleras manages to protect her secret for long. I expect her to be discovered or outed in tWoW. There's one advantage for Alleras in comparison to Arya: doesn't need to pee out in the open. And yes, binding breasts is one way, especially if she's skinny and not big busted. Not wearing revealing, skinny tops helps too. Don't think that's what students of the Citadel are supposed to wear.

6 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Your clues is why I said Alleras it too in your face. 

And my point was that George isn't so much interested in hiding Alleras' identity from us as he is interested in hiding it for the people around her. I don't mind it being into our face. Aegon was glaring in our face as well. As was the gravedigger at Quiet Isle.

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Some guys aren't fooled, most are. Gendry and Jon are more observant than most. It took Hot Pie as far as the Inn where the BwB took them to learn she was a girl. In Gendry's case he kept her secret. So, it's possible that some young man realized that Alleras is a woman, but just isn't revealing it. Lazy Leo and Marwyn imo know. Lazy Leo is hinting at it with wanting Arbor gold, wanting Alleras to pay, the bathing remark, and reminding her she's got another link of her chain. Marwyn doesn't care. Lazy Leo sounds like extorting her. He's keeping her secret, but wants her to pay for it, so she can finish her chain. She's beein with them a year and finsihed three links so far.

I do not think Alleras manages to protect her secret for long. I expect her to be discovered or outed in tWoW. There's one advantage for Alleras in comparison to Arya: doesn't need to pee out in the open. And yes, binding breasts is one way, especially if she's skinny and not big busted. Not wearing revealing, skinny tops helps too. Don't think that's what students of the Citadel are supposed to wear.

And my point was that George isn't so much interested in hiding Alleras' identity from us as he is interested in hiding it for the people around her. I don't mind it being into our face. Aegon was glaring in our face as well. As was the gravedigger at Quiet Isle.

Not really, Aegon has too many Northern symbolism for me to not ignore and my Blackfyre is Daario not him. As for gravedigger - I was too focused on Elder Brother, I can only hope Sandor will have a more peaceful life now. 

[sweetsunray]

5 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Not really, Aegon has too many Northern symbolism for me to not ignore and my Blackfyre is Daario not him. As for gravedigger - I was too focused on Elder Brother, I can only hope Sandor will have a more peaceful life now. 

I agree Daario is the Blackfyre.

But I mean for Aegon... it's quite obvious that Young Griff is Aegon from the get go.

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I agree Daario is the Blackfyre.

But I mean for Aegon... it's quite obvious that Young Griff is Aegon from the get go.

Probably? But I am more inclined to believe he is really son of Rhaegar. 

[sweetsunray]

34 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Probably? But I am more inclined to believe he is really son of Rhaegar. 

Where did I say 'probably'?

I will repeat and clarify what I was going for: when you are first introduced to Young Griff you realize he's supposed to be a hidden Targ and that he will claim to be Aegon, the son of Rhaegar.

Whether you believe it or not is something that imo George leaves up to the reader and will never clear up imo. He allows for enough room to make the non-believers think "but what if he was the real Aegon", while he sheds just enough doubt to make believers think "meh, I get why people don't believe it." Aegon gets that extra layer of mystery, because he's an important political side character and he was supposed to be dead. The other side characters, such as Haldon, Duck, Lemore, Connington, Sarella aren't meant to be difficult for the reader. They're a little bit of fun thrown in there, a little mystery for most readers to figure out (strokes the reader's ego).

[sweetsunray]

As for beign distracted away from the gravedigger... once pointed out to you, and you checked it, you can argue it's "too much on the nose" as well. Once you figure it out or someone points it out to you, it becomes obvious.

On a first read, Alleras cannot be as obvious as you claim it to be though, since it's a prologue chapter, and you haven't been introduced to Doran, Arianne, anyone from Dorne, and you know nothing about Sarella's "games"in Oldtown. It's only through the Dornish chapters that you figure out that Alleras is one of the Viper's children.

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Where did I say 'probably'?

I will repeat and clarify what I was going for: when you are first introduced to Young Griff you realize he's supposed to be a hidden Targ and that he will claim to be Aegon, the son of Rhaegar.

Whether you believe it or not is something that imo George leaves up to the reader and will never clear up imo. He allows for enough room to make the non-believers think "but what if he was the real Aegon", while he sheds just enough doubt to make believers think "meh, I get why people don't believe it." Aegon gets that extra layer of mystery, because he's an important political side character and he was supposed to be dead. The other side characters, such as Haldon, Duck, Lemore, Connington, Sarella aren't meant to be difficult for the reader. They're a little bit of fun thrown in there, a little mystery for most readers to figure out (strokes the reader's ego).

I didn't meant you said probably I am the one who doubts Aegon could be fake, though we are never told Sarella's game involves Old Town. Think about House Martell we learn from the day Elia and her children died they tried to bring down House Lannister. That's their game, and that game involves Sand Snakes and their thirst for vengeance as well. Who doomed Tyrion at the end of his trial? Wasn't it Shae? Who insisted to see the pigeon cake at Joffrey's wedding and helped Sansa get dressed? Wasn't it Shae? Who Tywin was at his last moments? Shae. 

[sweetsunray]

10 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

I didn't meant you said probably I am the one who doubts Aegon could be fake, though we are never told Sarella's game involves Old Town. Think about House Martell we learn from the day Elia and her children died they tried to bring down House Lannister. That's their game, and that game involves Sand Snakes and their thirst for vengeance as well. Who doomed Tyrion at the end of his trial? Wasn't it Shae? Who insisted to see the pigeon cake at Joffrey's wedding and helped Sansa get dressed? Wasn't it Shae? Who Tywin was at his last moments? Shae. 

If Doran knows his brother is dead, he also knows Shae is dead and doesn't have a hint of summer islander in her.

Sarella's mother is a summer islander. And she's portrayed as curious with an archeological bend to investigate.

It's not "their game" but "her ... game".

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

If Doran knows his brother is dead, he also knows Shae is dead and doesn't have a hint of summer islander in her.

Sarella's mother is a summer islander. And she's portrayed as curious with an archeological bend to investigate.

It's not "their game" but "her ... game".

Then Alleras=Sarella has no importance in my eyes sorry especially compared to identity of other characters - I don't know why it should be revealed in future books too, if she is there to forge herself a chain I will leave her to her game too. 

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Jova Snow said:

Then Alleras=Sarella has no importance in my eyes sorry especially compared to identity of other characters - I don't know why it should be revealed in future books too, if she is there to forge herself a chain I will leave her to her game too. 

So? A character's background and purpose to be at a place may be personal, and does not need to be necessary political. It doesn't mean that she might have a crucial act to perform in Oldtown that has to do with Sam or Euron, and her actually being a woman may even be a deciding factor. Sarella as Alleras seems to fit the trope of "no man can harm .xyz, but a woman can" thingy.

And of course, where Arya, Brienne and evidently Brave Dani expressed desire to do something of importance other than be a marriage pawn, we should expect there to be more women trying to do so, sometimes necessarily disguised as men to receive recognition, and yes functions as a parallel seed to help figure out Haldon, though you don't need Sarella=Alleras for that.

And one of the reasons that Tyrion hasn't figured out Haldon, despite him being acutely observant otherwise, is because he has a blind spot when it comes to women. He was blind about Shae, blind about Sansa and he is blind to Haldon's nature. He doesn't figure Lemore out either, but I don't think he has enough data to figure it out. Both identities are irrelevant to him.

The agent for Dorne in all of this is Lemore (and possibly Haldon) imo (and not Ashara). The Viper was in Essos with different free companies so he has friends and connections in the Golden Company. He somehow got wind of Varys recruiting people and why. Since Aegon's Elia's kid, and Elia and Oberyn were close, he wanted people he could trust in there. Tyene's mom was barred from being a septa because of her affair and child with Oberyn, so he visits Tyene's mom in the Reach with Arianne and Tyene (a cover to make it appear it was only a family visit), and recruits her to become Aegon's Septa (she dyes her hair as cover) and send him word whether this is legit or not. Arianne cannot recognize Haldon, but she would recognize Lemore when she arrives in Storm's End. For Arianne and consequentionally Doran, Lemore's word will seal the deal whether she believes Aegon to be the real thing and send word "dragon" to Doran.

[asongofheresy]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

So? A character's background and purpose to be at a place may be personal, and does not need to be necessary political. It doesn't mean that she might have a crucial act to perform in Oldtown that has to do with Sam or Euron, and her actually being a woman may even be a deciding factor. Sarella as Alleras seems to fit the trope of "no man can harm .xyz, but a woman can" thingy.

And of course, where Arya, Brienne and evidently Brave Dani expressed desire to do something of importance other than be a marriage pawn, we should expect there to be more women trying to do so, sometimes necessarily disguised as men to receive recognition, and yes functions as a parallel seed to help figure out Haldon, though you don't need Sarella=Alleras for that.

And one of the reasons that Tyrion hasn't figured out Haldon, despite him being acutely observant otherwise, is because he has a blind spot when it comes to women. He was blind about Shae, blind about Sansa and he is blind to Haldon's nature. He doesn't figure Lemore out either, but I don't think he has enough data to figure it out. Both identities are irrelevant to him.

The agent for Dorne in all of this is Lemore (and possibly Haldon) imo (and not Ashara). The Viper was in Essos with different free companies so he has friends and connections in the Golden Company. He somehow got wind of Varys recruiting people and why. Since Aegon's Elia's kid, and Elia and Oberyn were close, he wanted people he could trust in there. Tyene's mom was barred from being a septa because of her affair and child with Oberyn, so he visits Tyene's mom in the Reach with Arianne and Tyene (a cover to make it appear it was only a family visit), and recruits her to become Aegon's Septa (she dyes her hair as cover) and send him word whether this is legit or not. Arianne cannot recognize Haldon, but she would recognize Lemore when she arrives in Storm's End. For Arianne and consequentionally Doran, Lemore's word will seal the deal whether she believes Aegon to be the real thing and send word "dragon" to Doran.

Maybe though I believe Margaery's Septa could be Tyene's mother and it seems like Lemore is part of the company for a long time to speak Connington that they shouldn't reveal Aegon's identity to the Sellswords. And Oberyn didn't have any patient to stick to something long, if they knew about Aegon being Elia's son they won't try a marriage pact with Quentyn or Oberyn won't talk about Dornish law and Myrcella. Dorne has no ties to Aegon and company. 

[sweetsunray]

27 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Maybe though I believe Margaery's Septa could be Tyene's mother and it seems like Lemore is part of the company for a long time to speak Connington that they shouldn't reveal Aegon's identity to the Sellswords. And Oberyn didn't have any patient to stick to something long, if they knew about Aegon being Elia's son they won't try a marriage pact with Quentyn or Oberyn won't talk about Dornish law and Myrcella. Dorne has no ties to Aegon and company. 

Oberyn has the patience to seek his moment to avenge himself against the Mountain. Besides, Oberyn isn't the one doing the raising of Aegon. He lets someone else do it.

Lemore is indeed part of the company for a long time. It's not explicitly said how old Arianne was when she went with Oberyn to visit Tyene's mother, but it sounds pre-teen age. That would match the timeline for Aegon being only 5 or 6 at the time. Oberyn's free company wasn't the Golden Company, and neither Lemore nor Oberyn would fully trust the whole company with the secret.

Why shouldn't he do a marriage pact for Quentyn and Arianne? This pact dates from before Oberyn could even learn about Aegon's survival, before Connington allegedly died, before Illyrio made a pact with the GC. And there's no reason for Oberyn nor Doran to shun Dany, or forget about her, just because there's Aegon.

Regardless of the existence of Aegon (or Dany for that matter), Dornish Law still applies to Arianne. She's the eldest child of the Prince of Dorne, who is the eldest of the siblings Doran-Elia-Oberyn.

And why put your eggs all in the same basket. Viserys was dead in aSoS, and Dany lost somewhere in the green sea of the Dothraki. So, that failed and Varys and Illyrio still hadn't brought Aegon out, and that might have taken a while yet, despite the fact that there had been a civil war between Lannisters and Starks and Tullys. Strike the iron when hot, and stir the hornet's nest by advocating Myrcella, so that the Lannisters self-destruct.

[Seams]

Returning to the subject of Haldon.

On 12/15/2018 at 2:34 AM, sweetsunray said:

Not a secret identity in the sense of "another name", but a secret identity as in "not a man". Haldon Halfmaester is a woman imo, and not a man.

At first meeting Haldon, Duck and Tyrion debate about whores, and Haldon is a) affronted and b) Tyrion remarks that maesters don't need a cock, with Duck replying "but Haldon is only half a maester".

Tyrion is wrong though when he quips that maesters don't need a cock. They do, if only to prove they're men, because the Citadel does not accept female students.

And right after that conversation Haldon decides that Tyrion should double ride with Duck instead, and thus avoids Tyrion having a chance at checking whether Haldon has a cock or not, or breasts, etc.

And then there is the peeing scene. Tyrion has his morning pee together with Duck from the boat. Then he gets back to his work in the books and writing about dragons. That's when Haldon comes on deck and seems to go do his peeing off the boat, except George here makes a point of it to mention there are puffs of wind. No guy pisses against the wind. So, Haldon is only faking it. This is further hinted at, because Haldon tries to get Tyrion's attention with some remark. Tyrion threatens to join him and show his cock. Haldon warns him off, and then changes the subject by asking what part of Lannisport he said he was born (Tyrion's lying about his identity: claims he's yollo from Lannisport).

Makes the greeting of one of the Golden Company to Haldon quite ironic, "Icy cunt".

There is no other conceivable reason why Haldon was ousted from the Citadel: Haldon knows several languages, math, history and is rational. When he teaches Aegon, Tyrion is reminded of the time when maesters at CR taught him. Even Tyrion picks up a few things from Haldon. Haldon is as learned as Luwin, or more even, and he doesn't believe in magic. He's everything the Citadel would want in a student. He's not interested in women whatsoever, nor men. And he's got nothing in his characterization even remotely criminal. That doesn't leave much options anymore: wrong gender.

So, he's like the sphinx. Haldon is a woman who pretended to be a boy to learn and forge a chain. But at some point, after years, she got caught, and ousted from the Citadel. And that's it. Her name of course isn't Haldon, but it doesn't matter what her real name is, except that it's a woman's name.

Because of your excellent insights here, I went back to re-read ADwD, Chap. 8 (Tyrion III). I was immediately struck by the strong parallels to ASoS, Chap. 13 (Arya II).

In the Tyrion chapter, we meet Haldon and Duck for the first time. They ride with Tyrion along the riverbank to a place called Ghoyan Drohe where they meet up with Griff, Young Griff and Septa Lemore (as well as Ysilla and Yandry). A letter of explanation from Magister Illyrio apparently tells Connington/Griff that Tyrion has killed Tywin Lannister and that he should be taken to Daenerys to assist her in her eventual invasion of Westeros. We see Tyrion immediately starting to suspect the blue-dyed hair of his new companions and, at the end of the chapter, he makes a smart remark to Griff about "winged lions," causing the man to become quite angry. The mythical beasts called griffins, of course, are winged lions. Tyrion is telling Griff that he has already figured out his real identity.

In the Arya chapter, three men traveling along the road discern the presence of Gendry, Arya and Hot Pie as they forage for food during their attempt to travel to Riverrun. The three men are the archer Anguy, the singer Tom of Sevenstreams / Tom Sevenstrings, and Lem Lemoncloak. The three men persuade Arya and her friends to join them in walking / riding to a nearby inn (The Inn of the Kneeling Man) where there will be food. The people at the inn are Sharna, her husband and an orphan boy, "a thickset boy of fifteen or sixteen." As they are drinking their ale and eating tough bread, Tom approaches Arya and gives her a note saying that his group will pay her three gold dragons for the horses Arya and her companions have been riding since they left Harrenhal. Arya rejects the (probably worthless) paper, but says she will trade for the boat (that Brienne, Jaime and Cleos Frey traded for some horses as they attempted to travel to King's Landing before being diverted to Harrenhal). More men arrive and the reader learns that the inn and all of the men are connected to a group loyal to the late King Robert Baratheon. One of the new arrivals is Harwin, a former servant at Winterfell. With some prompting from Arya, he recognizes her as the Hand's daughter.

Superficially, the two chapters don't seem to have too much in common. Both describe people of disparate backgrounds meeting up to travel along a river. Some similar details were the things that piqued my interest:

A small brook flowed into the Trident a little farther on. As they waded across, their singing flushed a duck from among the reeds. Anguy stopped where he stood, unslung his bow, notched an arrow, and brought it down. The bird fell in the shallows not far from the bank. Lem took off his yellow cloak and waded in knee-deep to retrieve it, complaining all the while. "Do you think Sharma might have lemons down in that cellar of hers?" said Anguy to Tom as they watched Lem splash around, cursing. "A Dornish girl once cooked me duck with lemons." He sounded wistful.

(ASoS, Chap 13)

"Small men oft feel the need to prove their courage with unseemly boasts," [Haldon] declared. "I doubt if he could kill a duck."

Tyrion shrugged. "Fetch the duck."

"If you insist." The rider glanced at his companion.

The brawny man unsheathed a bastard sword. "I'm Duck, you mouthy little pisspot."

Oh, gods be good. "I had a smaller duck in mind."

The big man roared with laughter. "Did you hear, Haldon? He wants a smaller Duck!"

"I should gladly settle for a quieter one." The man called Haldon studied Tyrion with cool grey eyes before turning back to Illyrio. . . .

(ADwD, Chap. 8)

 

Lightfoot, she moved to the big old willow that grew beside the bend in the road and went to one knee in the grass and mud, within the veil of trailing branches. . . .

The archer's hand moved quicker than Arya would have believed. His shaft went hissing past her head within an inch of her ear and buried itself in the trunk of the willow behind her. . . .

(ASoS, Chap. 13)

(Digression: the "veil" reference reminds me of The Vale, where the lady of the house sits on a weirwood throne which perhaps includes some branches in its design.)

Ghoyan Drohe . . . had been a fair place, green and flowering, a city of canals and fountains. Until the war. Until the dragons came. A thousand years later, the canals were choked with reeds and mud, and pools of stagnant water gave birth to swarms of flies. The broken stones of temples and palaces were sinking back into the earth, and gnarled old willows grew thick along the riverbank.

(ADwD, Chap. 8)

". . . the river water tastes of war, with all the dead men drifting downstream. If I served you a cup of soup full of dead flies, would you drink it?"

"Arry would," said Hot Pie. "I mean, Squab."

"So would Lem," offered Anguy with a sly smile.

"Never you mind about Lem," Sharma said. "It's ale for all."

(ASoS, Chap. 13)

On the opening page of the Arya chapter, Tom Sevenstrings is singing, "I'll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho." Song lyrics likely always have deeper meaning in ASOIAF, but this line probably would not have caught my eye except I was experimenting with an anagram of the place name in the Tyrion chapter:

Ghoyan Drohe = Dragon hey ho

(More on the dragon in a minute.)

The Tyrion chapter includes discussion of His Grey Grace, The Prince of Sorrows, also known as the Shrouded Lord. This legendary being bestows a kiss that spreads the dreaded greyscale disease.

Later in the Arya chapter, Sharna's husband (the innkeeper) accuses Tom of having impregnated a girl named Fern.

" . . . like as not it was one o' you planted the bastard in the poor girl's belly." He gave Tom a sour look. "You, I'd wager, with that harp o' yours, singing all them sad songs just to get poor Fern out of her smallclothes."

"If a song makes a maid want to slip off her clothes and feel the good warm sun kiss her skin, why, is that the singer's fault?" asked Tom. "And 'twas Anguy she fancied, besides. 'Can I touch your bow?' I heard her ask him. 'Oooh, it feels so smooth and hard. Could I give it a little pull, do you think?'"

(ASoS, Chap. 13)

So the kiss in Tom's lyrics is not only a possible allusion to the Shrouded Lord / greyscale kiss discussed in the Tyrion chapter (Tom also refers to the point of a blade, which is used to diagnose whether greyscale has been contracted), but we also get confirmation here of the Alleras / Sarella dick substitution you discussed: an archer's bow is compared to an erect penis. In the Arya chapter, as the archer among three men demonstrates his superior ability with weapons, Arya thinks, "We have no chance . . . wishing she had a bow like his, and the skill to use it." I think this helps to confirm the Haldon / Alleras comparison, especially because Arya had been impersonating a boy earlier in her travels with Gendry and Hot Pie.

In the Tyrion chapter, there is also this Ghoyan Drohe vignette to compare/contrast with Tom's imagined description of a young girl voluntarily removing her clothes to enjoy the kiss of the sun:

One naked girl with mud up to her knees could not seem to take her eyes off Tyrion. She has never seen a dwarf before, he realized, much less a dwarf without a nose. He made a face and stuck his tongue out, and the girl began to cry.

"What did you do to her?" Duck asked.

"I blew her a kiss. All the girls cry when I kiss them."

(ADwD, Chap. 8)

The bestower of the kisses sees them differently than the way the kisses are perceived their recipients.

So how does all of this add up to help us in our understanding of Haldon? I think Rolly Duckfield and Haldon Halfmaester are allegorical characters, similar to Ser Illifer the Penniless and Ser Creighton Longbough in Brienne's arc. Haldon, who never laughs at Tyrion's boasts and wisecracks, is a Shrouded Lord figure.

But wait - there's more!

Rolly Duckfield likes a version of the legend in which the Shrouded Lord was a statue at first, and a grey woman from the fog kissed life to it with lips as cold as ice. I had been struck by the description of Haldon's cool grey eyes - those sound very Stark-like. But how could Haldon relate to Starks, even symbolically? The living statue imagery recalls the statue of Allysa Arryn, which fell over on Bronn's opponent, allowing Tyrion to survive his first trial by combat. Allysa is like Catelyn, losing her family to violent deaths and then "crying a river" that never ends. We also have the Stark ancestors carved in stone in the Winterfell crypt. I have also suspected, when the Shy Maid makes its second pass through the Sorrows, that the stone man who attacks Tyrion is supposed to be compared to Ned Stark - they are the only two characters in the books (so far as I can recall) who have a leg bone protruding from the flesh of their legs.

Even more relevant to the connection between the Arya arc and the Tyrion arc are Arya's dream of Nymeria pulling Catelyn's dead body from the Rhoyne river. She is truly dead but is brought back to life with a kiss from Ser Beric. When Hot Pie says that Arry would drink soup made with river water with dead flies in it, I think this was an allusion to Catelyn's dead body being pulled from the river. Anguy chimes in to say that Lem would do the same thing, which might be further confirmation that Lem is indeed Richard Lonmouth, and he would want to pull the dead body of Rhaegar out of the river where he died. (Hmm. I suppose the Lem / Lonmouth angle might hint that Haldon is the Rhaegar equivalent of Lady Stoneheart, not a Catelyn parallel. That could be interesting, and would explain why Haldon is part of Team Aegon.)

As Lady Stoneheart, Catelyn takes command of the Brotherhood Without Banners, the same group Arya encounters in this chapter. Catelyn's goals for the group are much more lethal than the mission pursued by Ser Beric, based on the charge issued by Ned as Robert's Hand of the King.

So this grey, stone, river, Stark stuff may be adding up to give us some hints about Haldon. I don't think Haldon is literally a Stark, or a reborn Catelyn. I think the point is to compare the patterns and see how one character's arc can reveal things about another character.

In addition to "dragon hey ho," Ghoyan Drohe could also be "grey hand oho," which could be an allusion to Jon Connington's greyscale or to Ned Stark as the Hand of the King.

And I had some thoughts about Rolly and dragons I said I would share. I realize this is not a thread about Rolly, but understanding him as an allegorical character could help to decipher Haldon.

In a nutshell: I am thinking that almost all bird references in ASOIAF are dragon / Targaryen references or, perhaps, allies of the Targaryens. The birds released from wedding pies, Bloodraven, the mockingbird sigil of Petyr Baelish, etc. I know, I know: the Night's Watch crows, the Arryn falcon, various other sigils and dishes served at feasts are not clearly linked to dragons or Targs. Yet, anyway. So the larger notion would need more work. (And I don't want to derail this thread.) But the specific bird reference here is the comparison of Rolly to a duck. Lem was apparently not present at the Ruby Ford to pull Rhaegar's body from the Trident (or was he?) but he did pull a duck from the swamp where it was brought down by Anguy's arrow.

I would need to do another re-read to see whether Rolly is supposed to be Rhaegar - I haven't seen those allusions in this chapter - but I think he may be a dragon. Tyrion rides with Rolly, sitting in front of him in the same saddle, during their journey to Ghoyan Drohe. Before they begin their trip, Haldon asks whether Tyrion is a rider, and Tyrion affirms that he is. He then asks Tyrion whether he is a bastard or a king. Tyrion cleverly sidesteps the question and says every dwarf is a bastard in his father's eyes. Haldon then seems to go into a major non-sequitor, asking Tyrion about obscure historical details involving the slaying of a dragon. Tyrion demonstrates knowledge superior to what Haldon has read. Haldon then informs Duck that the dwarf can ride with him and he wheels his mount about.

The road they travel is called the dragon road, and it is considered to be part of the nine man-made wonders of the world.

[Wolfkin]

On ‎5‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 10:39 PM, Lord Wraith said:

I keep wondering if he could be that missing Darry cousin. Could have been studying at the Citadel when Varys contacted him. If you were trying to give the illusion that Aegon is Rhaegar's son having a Darry with him would look good. Hard to find a bigger Targaryen supporter than the Darry's.

This reminds me, Ser Willem Darry and 4 others, broke into the nursery to remove Dany and Viserys from Dragonstone and then off to Braavos. Did we ever learn who the other 4 were who helped them escape? I would think Varys and Illyrio would be more trusting of any of those that were there in the beginning, so to speak. Just a thought.

[asongofheresy]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Oberyn has the patience to seek his moment to avenge himself against the Mountain. Besides, Oberyn isn't the one doing the raising of Aegon. He lets someone else do it.

Lemore is indeed part of the company for a long time. It's not explicitly said how old Arianne was when she went with Oberyn to visit Tyene's mother, but it sounds pre-teen age. That would match the timeline for Aegon being only 5 or 6 at the time. Oberyn's free company wasn't the Golden Company, and neither Lemore nor Oberyn would fully trust the whole company with the secret.

Why shouldn't he do a marriage pact for Quentyn and Arianne? This pact dates from before Oberyn could even learn about Aegon's survival, before Connington allegedly died, before Illyrio made a pact with the GC. And there's no reason for Oberyn nor Doran to shun Dany, or forget about her, just because there's Aegon.

Regardless of the existence of Aegon (or Dany for that matter), Dornish Law still applies to Arianne. She's the eldest child of the Prince of Dorne, who is the eldest of the siblings Doran-Elia-Oberyn.

And why put your eggs all in the same basket. Viserys was dead in aSoS, and Dany lost somewhere in the green sea of the Dothraki. So, that failed and Varys and Illyrio still hadn't brought Aegon out, and that might have taken a while yet, despite the fact that there had been a civil war between Lannisters and Starks and Tullys. Strike the iron when hot, and stir the hornet's nest by advocating Myrcella, so that the Lannisters self-destruct.

But Oberyn didn't made a marriage pact for Quentyn he made a pact about Viserys and Arianne, Daenerys wasn't mentioned, imo, as her choice of words is suspicious. No if Doran knew Aegon was really Elia's son he wouldn't ask for Quentyn and send someone old enough to recognize Connington. 

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

Returning to the subject of Haldon.

Because of your excellent insights here, I went back to re-read ADwD, Chap. 8 (Tyrion III). I was immediately struck by the strong parallels to ASoS, Chap. 13 (Arya II).

In the Tyrion chapter, we meet Haldon and Duck for the first time. They ride with Tyrion along the riverbank to a place called Ghoyan Drohe where they meet up with Griff, Young Griff and Septa Lemore (as well as Ysilla and Yandry). A letter of explanation from Magister Illyrio apparently tells Connington/Griff that Tyrion has killed Tywin Lannister and that he should be taken to Daenerys to assist her in her eventual invasion of Westeros. We see Tyrion immediately starting to suspect the blue-dyed hair of his new companions and, at the end of the chapter, he makes a smart remark to Griff about "winged lions," causing the man to become quite angry. The mythical beasts called griffins, of course, are winged lions. Tyrion is telling Griff that he has already figured out his real identity.

In the Arya chapter, three men traveling along the road discern the presence of Gendry, Arya and Hot Pie as they forage for food during their attempt to travel to Riverrun. The three men are the archer Anguy, the singer Tom of Sevenstreams / Tom Sevenstrings, and Lem Lemoncloak. The three men persuade Arya and her friends to join them in walking / riding to a nearby inn (The Inn of the Kneeling Man) where there will be food. The people at the inn are Sharna, her husband and an orphan boy, "a thickset boy of fifteen or sixteen." As they are drinking their ale and eating tough bread, Tom approaches Arya and gives her a note saying that his group will pay her three gold dragons for the horses Arya and her companions have been riding since they left Harrenhal. Arya rejects the (probably worthless) paper, but says she will trade for the boat (that Brienne, Jaime and Cleos Frey traded for some horses as they attempted to travel to King's Landing before being diverted to Harrenhal). More men arrive and the reader learns that the inn and all of the men are connected to a group loyal to the late King Robert Baratheon. One of the new arrivals is Harwin, a former servant at Winterfell. With some prompting from Arya, he recognizes her as the Hand's daughter.

Superficially, the two chapters don't seem to have too much in common. Both describe people of disparate backgrounds meeting up to travel along a river. Some similar details were the things that piqued my interest:

A small brook flowed into the Trident a little farther on. As they waded across, their singing flushed a duck from among the reeds. Anguy stopped where he stood, unslung his bow, notched an arrow, and brought it down. The bird fell in the shallows not far from the bank. Lem took off his yellow cloak and waded in knee-deep to retrieve it, complaining all the while. "Do you think Sharma might have lemons down in that cellar of hers?" said Anguy to Tom as they watched Lem splash around, cursing. "A Dornish girl once cooked me duck with lemons." He sounded wistful.

(ASoS, Chap 13)

"Small men oft feel the need to prove their courage with unseemly boasts," [Haldon] declared. "I doubt if he could kill a duck."

Tyrion shrugged. "Fetch the duck."

"If you insist." The rider glanced at his companion.

The brawny man unsheathed a bastard sword. "I'm Duck, you mouthy little pisspot."

Oh, gods be good. "I had a smaller duck in mind."

The big man roared with laughter. "Did you hear, Haldon? He wants a smaller Duck!"

"I should gladly settle for a quieter one." The man called Haldon studied Tyrion with cool grey eyes before turning back to Illyrio. . . .

(ADwD, Chap. 8)

 

Lightfoot, she moved to the big old willow that grew beside the bend in the road and went to one knee in the grass and mud, within the veil of trailing branches. . . .

The archer's hand moved quicker than Arya would have believed. His shaft went hissing past her head within an inch of her ear and buried itself in the trunk of the willow behind her. . . .

(ASoS, Chap. 13)

(Digression: the "veil" reference reminds me of The Vale, where the lady of the house sits on a weirwood throne which perhaps includes some branches in its design.)

Ghoyan Drohe . . . had been a fair place, green and flowering, a city of canals and fountains. Until the war. Until the dragons came. A thousand years later, the canals were choked with reeds and mud, and pools of stagnant water gave birth to swarms of flies. The broken stones of temples and palaces were sinking back into the earth, and gnarled old willows grew thick along the riverbank.

(ADwD, Chap. 8)

". . . the river water tastes of war, with all the dead men drifting downstream. If I served you a cup of soup full of dead flies, would you drink it?"

"Arry would," said Hot Pie. "I mean, Squab."

"So would Lem," offered Anguy with a sly smile.

"Never you mind about Lem," Sharma said. "It's ale for all."

(ASoS, Chap. 13)

On the opening page of the Arya chapter, Tom Sevenstrings is singing, "I'll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho." Song lyrics likely always have deeper meaning in ASOIAF, but this line probably would not have caught my eye except I was experimenting with an anagram of the place name in the Tyrion chapter:

Ghoyan Drohe = Dragon hey ho

(More on the dragon in a minute.)

The Tyrion chapter includes discussion of His Grey Grace, The Prince of Sorrows, also known as the Shrouded Lord. This legendary being bestows a kiss that spreads the dreaded greyscale disease.

Later in the Arya chapter, Sharna's husband (the innkeeper) accuses Tom of having impregnated a girl named Fern.

" . . . like as not it was one o' you planted the bastard in the poor girl's belly." He gave Tom a sour look. "You, I'd wager, with that harp o' yours, singing all them sad songs just to get poor Fern out of her smallclothes."

"If a song makes a maid want to slip off her clothes and feel the good warm sun kiss her skin, why, is that the singer's fault?" asked Tom. "And 'twas Anguy she fancied, besides. 'Can I touch your bow?' I heard her ask him. 'Oooh, it feels so smooth and hard. Could I give it a little pull, do you think?'"

(ASoS, Chap. 13)

So the kiss in Tom's lyrics is not only a possible allusion to the Shrouded Lord / greyscale kiss discussed in the Tyrion chapter (Tom also refers to the point of a blade, which is used to diagnose whether greyscale has been contracted), but we also get confirmation here of the Alleras / Sarella dick substitution you discussed: an archer's bow is compared to an erect penis. In the Arya chapter, as the archer among three men demonstrates his superior ability with weapons, Arya thinks, "We have no chance . . . wishing she had a bow like his, and the skill to use it." I think this helps to confirm the Haldon / Alleras comparison, especially because Arya had been impersonating a boy earlier in her travels with Gendry and Hot Pie.

In the Tyrion chapter, there is also this Ghoyan Drohe vignette to compare/contrast with Tom's imagined description of a young girl voluntarily removing her clothes to enjoy the kiss of the sun:

One naked girl with mud up to her knees could not seem to take her eyes off Tyrion. She has never seen a dwarf before, he realized, much less a dwarf without a nose. He made a face and stuck his tongue out, and the girl began to cry.

"What did you do to her?" Duck asked.

"I blew her a kiss. All the girls cry when I kiss them."

(ADwD, Chap. 8)

The bestower of the kisses sees them differently than the way the kisses are perceived their recipients.

So how does all of this add up to help us in our understanding of Haldon? I think Rolly Duckfield and Haldon Halfmaester are allegorical characters, similar to Ser Illifer the Penniless and Ser Creighton Longbough in Brienne's arc. Haldon, who never laughs at Tyrion's boasts and wisecracks, is a Shrouded Lord figure.

But wait - there's more!

Rolly Duckfield likes a version of the legend in which the Shrouded Lord was a statue at first, and a grey woman from the fog kissed life to it with lips as cold as ice. I had been struck by the description of Haldon's cool grey eyes - those sound very Stark-like. But how could Haldon relate to Starks, even symbolically? The living statue imagery recalls the statue of Allysa Arryn, which fell over on Bronn's opponent, allowing Tyrion to survive his first trial by combat. Allysa is like Catelyn, losing her family to violent deaths and then "crying a river" that never ends. We also have the Stark ancestors carved in stone in the Winterfell crypt. I have also suspected, when the Shy Maid makes its second pass through the Sorrows, that the stone man who attacks Tyrion is supposed to be compared to Ned Stark - they are the only two characters in the books (so far as I can recall) who have a leg bone protruding from the flesh of their legs.

Even more relevant to the connection between the Arya arc and the Tyrion arc are Arya's dream of Nymeria pulling Catelyn's dead body from the Rhoyne river. She is truly dead but is brought back to life with a kiss from Ser Beric. When Hot Pie says that Arry would drink soup made with river water with dead flies in it, I think this was an allusion to Catelyn's dead body being pulled from the river. Anguy chimes in to say that Lem would do the same thing, which might be further confirmation that Lem is indeed Richard Lonmouth, and he would want to pull the dead body of Rhaegar out of the river where he died. (Hmm. I suppose the Lem / Lonmouth angle might hint that Haldon is the Rhaegar equivalent of Lady Stoneheart, not a Catelyn parallel. That could be interesting, and would explain why Haldon is part of Team Aegon.)

As Lady Stoneheart, Catelyn takes command of the Brotherhood Without Banners, the same group Arya encounters in this chapter. Catelyn's goals for the group are much more lethal than the mission pursued by Ser Beric, based on the charge issued by Ned as Robert's Hand of the King.

So this grey, stone, river, Stark stuff may be adding up to give us some hints about Haldon. I don't think Haldon is literally a Stark, or a reborn Catelyn. I think the point is to compare the patterns and see how one character's arc can reveal things about another character.

In addition to "dragon hey ho," Ghoyan Drohe could also be "grey hand oho," which could be an allusion to Jon Connington's greyscale or to Ned Stark as the Hand of the King.

And I had some thoughts about Rolly and dragons I said I would share. I realize this is not a thread about Rolly, but understanding him as an allegorical character could help to decipher Haldon.

In a nutshell: I am thinking that almost all bird references in ASOIAF are dragon / Targaryen references or, perhaps, allies of the Targaryens. The birds released from wedding pies, Bloodraven, the mockingbird sigil of Petyr Baelish, etc. I know, I know: the Night's Watch crows, the Arryn falcon, various other sigils and dishes served at feasts are not clearly linked to dragons or Targs. Yet, anyway. So the larger notion would need more work. (And I don't want to derail this thread.) But the specific bird reference here is the comparison of Rolly to a duck. Lem was apparently not present at the Ruby Ford to pull Rhaegar's body from the Trident (or was he?) but he did pull a duck from the swamp where it was brought down by Anguy's arrow.

I would need to do another re-read to see whether Rolly is supposed to be Rhaegar - I haven't seen those allusions in this chapter - but I think he may be a dragon. Tyrion rides with Rolly, sitting in front of him in the same saddle, during their journey to Ghoyan Drohe. Before they begin their trip, Haldon asks whether Tyrion is a rider, and Tyrion affirms that he is. He then asks Tyrion whether he is a bastard or a king. Tyrion cleverly sidesteps the question and says every dwarf is a bastard in his father's eyes. Haldon then seems to go into a major non-sequitor, asking Tyrion about obscure historical details involving the slaying of a dragon. Tyrion demonstrates knowledge superior to what Haldon has read. Haldon then informs Duck that the dwarf can ride with him and he wheels his mount about.

The road they travel is called the dragon road, and it is considered to be part of the nine man-made wonders of the world.

Thanks, Seams!

I will address this for now with a short note, and will reply deeper afterwards (in a few days, very busy for work atm)

Yes, there are certainly parallels between Arya's chapter where she ends up being captured by the BwB and Tyrion becoming part of Team Aegon.

I take another angle for the Duck presense. As I showed in my bear-maiden essays (in the thread on this forum, not ever managed to getting around Arya's bear-maiden stuff on my blog), that particular chapter is written following the pattern of catching a bear (with Gendry as the bear character) and Arya the accompanying bird-partner. And how those who catch a bear are then instantly rewarded with a game catch. That's after all the bear-hunter's goal: capture a bear once a year, for luck with the other game the rest of the year. We see this with the duck suddenly appearing  for the 3 bear hunters (seeker, caller, killer) to be caught.

Now in pretty much every arc there's a bear character, minor charachters as well as secondary POV and main POV. Now in bear folklore, the bear has a swan-maiden he pines for, but his own "spirit" is a bird too. George has either an actual bird or a character with a bird name as companion. Hence you have the obvious bear Jeor Mormont and his talking raven. That's why Small Paul (described like a giant, who Jon says are bearlike) wants himself a talking bird. And in death, he does end up with a raven (eating his flesh). No, Lark isn't the companion of Small Paul. He's the mean larking spirit of Chett (an angry vengeful corrupted bear). That's why Arya calls herself "squab" after Lem & co ask whether there's a bear hiding behind the wall (yes, Gendry). And that's why George chooses Willow for the Arya stand-in at the orphan's inn in aFfC and NOT a bird name. Willow isn't a replacement for the swan he misses. 

So, we have a character called a Duck in this party, and so there's  a bear too. Tyrion's nicknamed a giant from almost the very beginning, and when he wears a "bearskin" at the Wall, Jon thinks of him as a little bear. But something's happening here. The Duck is a gamebird, a bird you hunt. And Tyrion has gradually moved to turning into a hunter himself (he quarreled his own father with a bow). Bear characters normally hate the bow, because that's the weapon with which they are normally killed in a bear hunt. When bear characters pick up a bow themselves, they are the hunted becoming the hunter. In this way Tyrion and Samwell are similar, though Samwell isn't yet whereTyrion is. So, with Duck and Tyrion, you get a situation of "who's catching who here?" Aegon's team believe themselves to have caught a little bear, but the bear end up playing games with them and most likely will be their failure, rather than their success. And indeed it's by playing cyvasse that Tyrion manages to discover Young Griff's identity, and when he reveals it, they're sent right back to the bridge with the stone men, and Connington ends up with grey scale, while in yet another game Tyrion convinces Aegon of conquering Westeros without Dany.

In this way I agree that bows also stand for a penis, or "acquring balls". In the Wayland the Smith legend, the captured (hidden bear) character Wayland is feathered, his tendosn cut, and made to work for the king without being rewarded with a bride/princess. The cutting of the tendons was a euphemism that they emasculated the captured bear. That king wronged Wayland, because that's not the proper way to capture a bear. You capture him with 3 hunters, one with a bow, quarrel him with a symbolical death (this is what Anguy does: he actually shoots an arrow, saying he missed on purpose and could have killed her if he wanted to), you give him his maiden, have a wedding feast, and bury the bear so his bird spirit can return to the heavens, until he's born anew. Wayland's legend is what a bear does if you abuse a captured bear. Ultimately he will take revenge. Wayland did this by luring the king's two sons to his island prison, and then cut the boys' heads off, in that way acquiring his "tendons" back to flee with wings. George invented the bear acquiring bow skills as a replacement of that scenario with bears he wants to keep in the grey area, and not go all Chett, Ramsay or Gregor. When, Tyrion quarreled his father, he took his balls back, after his father, the regent (a stand in king so too speak) still refused to give him his maiden. And he was never properl caught. Instead he was smuggled overseas in a wine barrel. Now, Illyrio does try to offer Tyrion a woman, wines and dines him, but neither Illyrio, Duck, Haldon or Connington held a bow to Tyrion, and none of them have the woman he wants to give. More, he's got to stay sober and is stuck on a boat, away from women, while there's a beautiful woman swimming naked every day, but he's not allowed to touch her. So, that scene where he blows a "kiss" at the young maiden on the road, and she starts crying, that's a bear-maiden scene of the song. The maiden doesn't want a bear/dwarf. She wants a knight. As the frustration and anger of wrong-way captured bear builds, it can eventually lead to lashing out, like a corrupted bear, and we see this when he rapes the bedslave.

It takes another sick bear to capture Tyrion, and then they're both captured by slavers, getting worse and worse, with Tyrion poisoning his captors, almost getting eaten himself if not for a Targaryen princess/Queen of Mereen to prevent it.

And yes, you can see how women who dress up as men want a bow: to get balls, so they can hunt in stead of being the hunted.

Oops, that was longer than I intended.

[Lady Rhodes]

I doubt he has a secret identity, but I am more interested, like many in this thread, about how he became to be aligned with this group. We know who gathered this band of misfits, but why were these misfits chosen? Some are easy enough - Jon Con provides an air of legitimacy to Aegon, whether fake or real.  Duck is, I suspect, someone from the Golden Company that Jon Con found of particular use or loyalty.  But Septa Lemore gave birth, so we know there is more to her than meets the eye and she is my best guess at the "secret identity".  But where did Haldon come from?  I concur with previous posters that he seems to be in a position of modest respect with the Golden Company. 

[M_Tootles]

On 12/14/2018 at 5:03 PM, Jova Snow said:

I believe he is Walys Flowers the missing WF maester. He is key to understand Southorn Ambitions, he is connected to Maester Cressen and Archmaester Walgrave (who taught Cressen at the Citadel) it is interesting Walgrave takes cares of raveny of Citadel and the moment Varys talks to Kevan about Aegon's return we have white raven heralding winter. Haldon is also referred as icy c*nt, has grey eyes, and has a similar hair style to Ned, Lady Dustin and High Sparrow - I think HS may wear the face of Balon Greyjoy who have a connection to North as well but that's just speculation. AFFC literally has Pate talking about possessions of Walgrave where there is a portrait of a Florent woman that resembles Walgrave, House Florent's sigil has blue flowers and a fox hence the red cloak, a lock of blonde hair - i believe Malora's hair, it is possible her story has a connection to Lysa Arryn, and a gauntlet of a prince - there must even be a crab reference to it (wasn't there a Roynish figure connected to crabs?)  The guy is great for R+L=A clues. But I am curious who the prince was. 

Where would you get such a silly idea about Balon/High Sparrow? ;p

I've always had Leyton as Haldon (and Malora as Lemore), but I'll listen to Walys since you're speaking my language.

[M_Tootles]

On 12/15/2018 at 1:34 AM, sweetsunray said:

And then there is the peeing scene. Tyrion has his morning pee together with Duck from the boat. Then he gets back to his work in the books and writing about dragons. That's when Haldon comes on deck and seems to go do his peeing off the boat, except George here makes a point of it to mention there are puffs of wind. No guy pisses against the wind. So, Haldon is only faking it. This is further hinted at, because Haldon tries to get Tyrion's attention with some remark. Tyrion threatens to join him and show his cock. Haldon warns him off, and then changes the subject by asking what part of Lannisport he said he was born (Tyrion's lying about his identity: claims he's yollo from Lannisport).

Makes the greeting of one of the Golden Company to Haldon quite ironic, "Icy cunt".

...

So, he's like the sphinx. Haldon is a woman who pretended to be a boy to learn and forge a chain. But at some point, after years, she got caught, and ousted from the Citadel. And that's it. Her name of course isn't Haldon, but it doesn't matter what her real name is, except that it's a woman's name.

Ooooooooo this is juicy. Except for the "that's it" part. Seems dramatically inert if "she" isn't SOMEONE (besides "some woman"). Maybe Malora, with "Lemore" the red herring there?