Jon Darry died wearing Rhaegar's armor at Battle of the Trident

[Winter prince]

"Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."

 

[Aegon VII]

2 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

@Aegon VII so, I made a post recently adressing some problems about the big gap between the books one of them was about the fact that it's almost impossible to come up with a new theory that makes sense because almost all of them were already made or at least discussed.

I can understand the frustration with people rehashing crackpot theories and not contributing anything new or throwing out crackpot for the sake of crackpot. Both can be avoided with a google search and the posters unwillingness to do so is worthy of derision. However I disagree it's impossible to come up with new meaningful theories. Most have already been discussed but we are far from solving the great mystery that is asoiaf. We can use the multiple theories of the past and expand on them.

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My contribution to this forum is basically start discussions about what was written and opinions about future happening in the books. I don't see any value on making a theory like yours when yourself is telling us you know this is crackpot.

Just because something is crackpot doesn't mean it can't be a very solid theory, or at least capture glimpses of what GRRM was trying to convey whilst perhaps confusing parts. There's more to be discovered about what's going on in asoiaf and the best chance of figuring it all out comes from the pooled knowledge of the forum and an exploration of literary themes and parallels.

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Doing theories for the sake of doing theories doesn't make sense.

Correct and that's not what this is. Call it a thought experiment if you must but there's a reason people have been claiming Rhaegar is alive so insistently over the years and that's because there's a ton of text to support it. There aren't a bunch of people who view MR=RT as a valid theory because they're bored and are coming up with theories for the sake of theories. They view it as a valid theory because it is one with evidence to support it. If MR=RT than Rhaegar had to survive somehow which leads many of us to wonder how this could have happened. In thinking about this, I view the theory I proposed here as on possiblity that would be supported based on the events of the trident in GOT with Lady's execution. You say there are no new theories but what I have presented here is just that as was my Big Walder Analysis from a while back. IF Rhaegar is alive, I view the events we saw at the trident as being a clue from GRRM. The if is a huge if, and therefore puts my theory in the crackpot realm before I even begin, but I am not looking to argue the qualifier. There is no harm in examining how Rhaegar might have survived, even though it's unlikely it's still a possibility. While examining this in addition to a number of other secret identity theories (which are MR=RT, Arthur=Qhorin, HR=Shadrick and Whent=Kettleback and which I believe all have valid evidence), it got me to wonder who it could be if someone died in Rhaegar's place. Darry makes the most sense, with not much known about his death at the trident. Before this, I had always thought there was a parallel between Lady's execution and Rhaegar's death at the trident. A wolf/dragon fight a baratheon, the wolf/dragon dies and a lady's name is said right before the death. wolf/dragon is the ice/fire dichotomy that is prevalent throughout the series e.g. stannis vs the night's king, Mance's execution at wall vs contents of PL, Bran vs Dany, etc. When I then saw that the deliberations over Lady happened in Darry while Robert was in the Darry high seat it seemed noteworthy enough to share. It seems this is where we differ in opinion.

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And everytime I read about Rhaegar being alive and is *put any name here* I have to say something, and you know why? Because someone else already have done a """theory"""" about it.

Show me a theory that supports JD dying in Rhaegar's place citing parallels with Lady's execution and Bran's vision in following chapter. I'm well aware the theory that JD fought in Rhaegar's armor is nothing special but I would be highly surprised if someone else used the events of the trident Round 2 to support it. Hell, I haven't seen a theory that even points out the parallels between the two regardless of mentioning Darry. I also haven't seen a theory that suggests Rhaegar burning with a cold light would suggest he's alive as flame in that dream symbolizes life, though I'm sure it's been noted before. Just because there are a million shit crackpot theories doesn't mean they all are.

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Sorry if I've offended you when I made fun about your crackpot. But you're just one in a bigger problem in the community. This forum at this stage is a place to discuss the events that happened in fact and discuss more about the theories that were already done.

I completely disagree. Discussing events that happened in fact is crawling, if you ever wish to walk then run we must build on the the theories that were already done to go into the realm of the unknown, Crackpot to the layperson, where theories are supported by multiple lesser theories. I'll admit, I did not go into the hundred lesser theories that would be necessary to support all my points here. I said as much in the OP. For me, the bigger problem in the community is people who do nothing but criticize while offering little textual analysis of what they view as wrong with a theory. Who kill threads such as MR=RT because they feel offended it's been discussed before. If we have all this info available and people still are big proponents of MR=RT, it's probably because there's text that supports it.

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It's very very hard to come up with something new that is supported by the text. Not just supported, but makes something to the overall story. I'm not here to dictate what people should or shouldn't post, but I have the right to mock when something doesn't add up, and Rhaegar is *insert name here* theories is something that I'll mock just like Euron is *insert any name here* or Howland reed is *insert any name here*.

Fair enough, but my thread was not to establish that Rhaegar=x, it was to discuss how he may have survived and how the events at the trident would support Darry dying in his armor, if later we learn that's what happened. I get you think it's pointless to do this but I disagree.

1 hour ago, maudisdottir said:

I'm not a fan of crackpot, even to kill time during the Long Wait. I try not to be too rude or condescending, unless the OP does the same in defending their theories (eg when there's nothing in the books to back it and up the only evidence is "you're obviously not perceptive enough to read between the lines to see what GRRM isn't saying"). So while I don't think mockery is the best way to express disagreement, I can understand the frustration.

 As can I, but I am like you when it comes to the "unless the OP..". For this thread I do not believe I have done so. And I'm not above a good mockery, it just get's out of hand when you actually are trying to present a new idea.

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Having said that, I don't really consider the above constitutes "analysis". Taking a quote from the text and saying "would be ironic if he wasn't" is not evidence - it's the opposite. You're basically giving examples of characters stating Rhaegar is dead, then using those to somehow claim they're all lying or mistaken.

I can completely sympathize with that, but please realize, that really wasn't the analysis part of the theory. I introduced that as, Here I will mention a few quotes that would be nods from GRRM that Rhaegar is alive. A nod is less than even a hint. It's something that if Rhaegar was alive is true we'd look back on and say "damnnnnnn, clever George". Kind of like Selmy saying that Rhaegar was above all able. If MR=RT, that's a huge smack your forehead moment when you realize oh shit, he is Abel. Or when Jon says Mance's blood is no more royal than his. I did not want to us this thread to defend Rhaegar surviving, I wanted to move past that and discuss the trident parallels and how that could match up with JD and the Darry, so I did not go into a full analysis of the evidence supporting Rhaegar living. Perhaps it was a mistake to include the section of quotes at all, but if Rhaegar is alive I think each one of those quotes takes on a whole new meaning.

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And the connection between "mist" and "midst" is non-existent. That's not even a play on words - it's nothing.

 

This is true haha, I said very small note!

[Ser Loras The Gay]

@Aegon VII Dude, sorry but, I already said and other people have pointed out many things that your crackpot does wrong. So far I've seen little to no people considering Rhaegar as Mance. It doesn't add up. Why would Rhaegar leave everything behind to go beyond the wall? Why would he left the woman he supposedly loved or at least beared his aleggdly child behind to go beyond the wall? Why would he sent a KG to die as him? Why would Robert doesn't notice that he was not fighting Rhaegar? Why would Martin make such complex and subtle parallels as you said and with what purpose on the great scheme of things? Why would anyone at Rhaegar's side notice that Rhaegar was acting strange (because even with glamour you need to be perfect so no one notices that you are not the person you are glamoured)? What Rhaegar is trying to acomplish beyond the wall? How would Rhaegar infiltrate himself as Mance Ryder? How Rhaegar knew about this man? That's so many questions that I really don't think have any awsers to. And I'm not thinking them all. And how much text does it really have to support all the things Rhaegar is trying to do is beyond me. But if you are different and has more awsers I'm willing to listen. One more time.

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

@Dorian Martell's son I saved this thread to the "crackpot list". Someday I'll post it like the "compendium of theories" thread. Just you wait.

when the series is published and over, and this forum is a hollow shell of it's former crackpot glory, a compendium of the greatest crackpots ever posted would be a wonderful inclusion. All the Mance, Dario, Benjen and Euron is everyone else threads. All the Rhaegar is alive threads. All the threads where people try to show how a character is exactly the opposite of how they are written. It will be glorious and epic 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

when the series is published and over, and this forum is a hollow shell of it's former crackpot glory, a compendium of the greatest crackpots ever posted would be a wonderful inclusion. All the Mance, Dario, Benjen and Euron is everyone else threads. All the Rhaegar is alive threads. All the threads where people try to show how a character is exactly the opposite of how they are written. It will be glorious and epic 

I have only 14 saved. The memiest of them all.

[cgrav]

The biggest problem with any theory of Rhaegar being alive in Westeros is that everyone knows what he looks like. 

I think it's more likely that Rhaegar knowingly went to his death and took it as an opportunity to attempt some fire-magic transcendence thing (the same whatever source of knowledge that Mel reads from in her fires). 

I also think it's possible that Robert resorted to treachery after being injured. Maybe he fell and yielded, but then attacked Rhaegar at the last moment. 

But those still involved Rhaegar dying. 

So much of the books' plots are driven by the fact that Rhaegar took a lot of knowledge to the funeral pyre. His living presence would undermine so many storylines. If Howland Reed's knowledge is too much to bring into the story in 5 books, then Rhaegar's even more so.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

The biggest problem with any theory of Rhaegar being alive in Westeros is that everyone knows what he looks like. 

The biggest problem with any such theory is that GRRM said "Rhaegar was cremated", in answer to what happened with Rhaegar's body. That's as straightforward as it gets. Therefore, Rhaegar cannot be poising as any character currently alive, and the supposed "textual evidence" is misinterpretation and/or wishful reading.

[Prof. Cecily]

Crackpottery.

When I read the  chapter where LSH first appears, I very nearly gave up on ASOIAF.

And after that, somehow just about anything seems possible.

Then again, some theories have legs and others don't.

It's been a Long Wait between books and I daresay EVERYTHING possible has been said about ASOIAF.

And yet, here we are.

 

The OP reminded me of two things that I suspect have some  relation, though as yet  I haven't a clue what it might be.

 

The events at Ruby Ford. One being the battle and death duel of Robert's Rebellion, the second being the scene between the children at that same place in AGOT.

I have no idea the two events are related, but I'll bet GRRM had something in mind.

And a question- how is it King Robert didn't visit that spot during the journey back to KL from Winterfell? It's where he's avenged Lyanna, after all.

 

The second point is: rubies.

Glamourous and deceitful rubies. 

Melisandre's illusions are related to her ruby, notably  the trickery with Rattleshirt.

 

These are simply elements that caught my attention- if someone's written up on them, I'd appreciate a shout-out.

Anyway.

Did Rhaegar die at the Ruby Ford?

I hope so. He deserves it for believing in a prophecy that ruined his mother's happiness.

 

 

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

He deserves it for believing in a prophecy that ruined his mother's happiness.

And if the prophecy is not true, then Rhaella suffered totally in vain. Does this seem like a better option?

[Prof. Cecily]

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And if the prophecy is not true, then Rhaella suffered totally in vain. Does this seem like a better option?

Can anything really justify Rhaella's suffering?

I'm reminded of the passage I read this afternoon in TDWD, Tyrion XI

Spoiler

At night Tyrion would oft hear her praying. A waste of words. If there are gods to listen, they are monstrous gods who torment us for their sport. Who else would make a world like this, so full of bondage, blood, and pain? Who else would shape us as they have? 

 

[Asshai Backwards]

On 5/8/2017 at 7:20 PM, Ser Loras The Gay said:

@Aegon VII Dude, sorry but, I already said and other people have pointed out many things that your crackpot does wrong. So far I've seen little to no people considering Rhaegar as Mance. It doesn't add up. Why would Rhaegar leave everything behind to go beyond the wall? Why would he left the woman he supposedly loved or at least beared his aleggdly child behind to go beyond the wall? Why would he sent a KG to die as him? Why would Robert doesn't notice that he was not fighting Rhaegar? Why would Martin make such complex and subtle parallels as you said and with what purpose on the great scheme of things? Why would anyone at Rhaegar's side notice that Rhaegar was acting strange (because even with glamour you need to be perfect so no one notices that you are not the person you are glamoured)? What Rhaegar is trying to acomplish beyond the wall? How would Rhaegar infiltrate himself as Mance Ryder? How Rhaegar knew about this man? That's so many questions that I really don't think have any awsers to. And I'm not thinking them all. And how much text does it really have to support all the things Rhaegar is trying to do is beyond me. But if you are different and has more awsers I'm willing to listen. One more time.

First of all, not everybody thinks RT=MR is total crackpot.  Partial, to be certain.  Nonetheless, I for one love the narrative implications denoted by the bolded questions above.  Rhaegar always saw the big picture...but not always some of the details, perhaps.  Like, for instance, he might have seen that his father was an unfit king, and thought that Robert Barratheon would be a decent stand-in while he slipped off anonymously to fight the greater battle north of the wall.  Not anticipating, of course, the chaos that would come as the Lannisters weaseled their way into power.  This is all tinfoil musing of course.

The unbolded questions are quite valid, of course, and are probably the sorts of questions the OP is trying to figure out with a post like this, all predicated on having at least a semi-belief in the premise that RT could = MR.  For some, those same questions only serve as disqualifiers to the whole idea.  If that is the case, why click on this thread?  There are so many to choose from.

I can get the weariness over the probably endless stream of hidden identity threads.  However, I really do believe there are all sorts of hidden figures/double identities/untold(as yet) backstories in this story, starting with Mance and Quorin, and including Daario, Marwyin, Qyburn, and others.

As far as the this topic specifically, I like it.  Fits in.  Jaime wanted Darry to take his place guarding Aerys, but Rhaegar had plans for both of them.  Also, I never thought about the parallels of the Trident scenes.  Will require more musing, and probably a summer reread of the novels.

[PrettyPig]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 3:31 AM, Prof. Cecily said:

The OP reminded me of two things that I suspect have some  relation, though as yet  I haven't a clue what it might be.

 

The events at Ruby Ford. One being the battle and death duel of Robert's Rebellion, the second being the scene between the children at that same place in AGOT.

I have no idea the two events are related, but I'll bet GRRM had something in mind.

I haven't looked specifically at the Battle of the Trident with respect to AGOT events at Ruby Ford,  but there are some nice *potential* parallels between the Arya/Mycah/Sansa/Joff scene and Lyanna's 'abduction' in the Riverlands.  I say "potential" because it requires some extrapolation of sequence of known events from the current scenario to the unknowns of the past one, but it does work. 

[LynnS]

I have a problem with the notion that rubies = glamors, based on Melisandre's ruby.  I think Mel's ruby is actually dragonglass from which she draws fire.  She is very familiar with the properties and uses of dragonglass when Sam reveals that he 'killed' the white walker with it.  

Quaithe is another who is familiar with it's uses when she tells Dany that the fire mage performing in square wasn't able to draw fire from dragonglass until recently.

Mance is glamored with something that glows like a ruby and he can feel the heat of it through his shackles; but when Mel breaks the glamor; the ruby goes dark.  That doesn't sound like a ruby.   So I'm doubtful that Rhaegar's rubies are anything magical.

The second problem is that Mance's history is well known both among the wildlings and the Night's Watch.  He was taken as a boy in a raid and grew up to become a man of the watch.  Not something that can be unexplained or put aside.

 

[Prof. Cecily]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

I have a problem with the notion that rubies = glamors, based on Melisandre's ruby.  I think Mel's ruby is actually dragonglass from which she draws fire.  She is very familiar with the properties and uses of dragonglass when Sam reveals that he 'killed' the white walker with it.  

Quaithe is another who is familiar with it's uses when she tells Dany that the fire mage performing in square wasn't able to draw fire from dragonglass until recently.

Mance is glamored with something that glows like a ruby and he can feel the heat of it through his shackles; but when Mel breaks the glamor; the ruby goes dark.  That doesn't sound like a ruby.   So I'm doubtful that Rhaegar's rubies are anything magical.

The second problem is that Mance's history is well known both among the wildlings and the Night's Watch.  He was taken as a boy in a raid and grew up to become a man of the watch.  Not something that can be unexplained or put aside.

 

That's a good point! Obsidian can be many different colours, indeed.

I'm only on my third lecture of the saga and am alive to the meanings and contexts of the gemstone this time around. I'm feeling my way around them and was struck by the presence of rubies in several suggestive instances.

18 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

I haven't looked specifically at the Battle of the Trident with respect to AGOT events at Ruby Ford,  but there are some nice *potential* parallels between the Arya/Mycah/Sansa/Joff scene and Lyanna's 'abduction' in the Riverlands.  I say "potential" because it requires some extrapolation of sequence of known events from the current scenario to the unknowns of the past one, but it does work. 

I had nothing so definite in mind, to tell the truth. I'm simply noting that it's a place where fates are sealed, hopes are crushed.

[Lord Wraith]

I have always found it odd that we don't know how Jon Darry died. Rhaegar and the rest of the KG we are told who killed them and how. Jon... nothing you would think killing a KG would be remembered Lyn Corbray has been crowing about it for years.

I doubt the whole glamoured armor thing is real but I am partial to thinking Jon Darry is alive. Most likely as the Elder Brother.

[Prof. Cecily]

Yes, the glamoured armour idea is way too much of a stretch. I was musing about the relation of rubies not only with glamour, but with deception and self-deception, which I fear didn't come across properly in my original text. Being tricked by a glamouring is one thing, being bedazzled by deception, another.

Jon Darry alive? Like that Lannister boy lost in the ugly crowd scene? Tyrek.

You have a point. Someone who killed a KG would live off the tale for years.

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

You have a point. Someone who killed a KG would live off the tale for years.

Not really. Battlefield is not a neatly organized game where you can always see who has scored which points. Darry may have been killed by a bunch of nobodies who had no idea who he was (white armour doesn't stay white long in a fight), or by someone who was consequently offed by someone else. There is nothing suspicious about that.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

7 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I have always found it odd that we don't know how Jon Darry died. Rhaegar and the rest of the KG we are told who killed them and how. Jon... nothing you would think killing a KG would be remembered Lyn Corbray has been crowing about it for years.

And yet we've only learned about it in Book 4, when Lyn Corbray became more important to the plot (even though we'd met Corbray back in Book 1).

[WSmith84]

One problem (among many) I have with RT=MR is: does Melisandre not notice that the man she's casting a glamour on is already glamoured? Because Mance looks nothing like Rhaegar so he must already be wearing one, right? You'd think that that might interfere with Mel's magic, but strangely it's never mentioned.

[Prof. Cecily]

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Not really. Battlefield is not a neatly organized game where you can always see who has scored which points. Darry may have been killed by a bunch of nobodies who had no idea who he was (white armour doesn't stay white long in a fight), or by someone who was consequently offed by someone else. There is nothing suspicious about that.

Of course you're right. One can't begin to imagine the hell of a battlefield.

Or the many, many things that can happen.

 

Thanks for obliging me to reflect more on the subject!