Illyrio and Lys

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

21 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Doh!

• Q: Is Varys truly a eunuch, or is it just another of his many disguises?

  GRRM: Guess we won't know till someone takes a peek inside his breeches.

 

exactly the kind of answer i would expect.

[Khal Varys]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

There is a certain chance that revenge may have been part of the original game they played when Varys first went to Westeros. After all, there are people (Selmy and Jaime) who believe Varys gave bad advice to Aerys and fueled his paranoia.

The most glaring hole in that theory is the fact that Varys and Illyrio did nothing during the Rebellion when they could actually have brought in Illyrio as a Blackfyre pretender to set himself up as the rebel leader instead of Robert. If Varys manipulated crucial events behind the scenes it would be very odd if he didn't saw the Rebellion coming.

Varys' own reason to go to Westeros and his continuing investment in the government and people of that kingdom does need an explanation. Varys isn't a Westerosi by birth. Why doesn't he work to better the situation or take over Lys (where he was allegedly born), Myr (where he once lived as a thief), or Pentos (where he and Illyrio have a lot of power anyway)? There has to be a good answer to that question.

The Aegon plan as it is clearly is either an outgrowth of Varys actually hiding the real Aegon (as a precaution, just as Cersei later disguises Tommen as a page and gets him out of the city) or the opportunity the death of the real Aegon provided.

The point of Aegon is to be a good and great king of Westeros. That much is clear. Peace and prosperity for 'the children' are Varys' endgame. It is not about Aegon being king, it is about what Aegon is supposed to embody and bring about. If he fails at that Varys is not all that unlikely to discard him. He doesn't want to give Westeros another tyrant, he wants to create a lasting peace.

The problem of Robert's regime is that it was rotten to the core. He had two ambitious brothers who were both willing to kill each other and the wife and children of their brother, and a wife who actually cuckolded him. Robert was sort of accepted as king, but only grudgingly, and mostly only because of his prowess in battle. The Ironborn tried to secede, and later the North and the Riverlands played the same game. 

A Targaryen king can unite the Realm again, and create a permanent peace. If they don't return then the Realm is going to break apart for good, and the common people will suffer. There are a lot of ambitious people left who still want to have all. Euron shows that pretty clear right now. He has no claim to anything yet he still wants the Iron Throne.

I should say, I believe that theorum is possible, I think I personally would find that answer a bit dull as a reveal to that particular mystery is concerned.  I don't mind if this theory is true or whatever, for me the mystery is so thick that no personal motivation whatsoever seems odd.  It could be that would represent a very interesting character underneath to dedicate his life to that type of risky investment... but for the moment I'd like to think there's just a bit of personal motivation that they've done so well in masking.  Perhaps Illyrio has already shown his hand being a possible sire to young Aegon.

Part of the problem I have with Aegon is the delay in bringing the three dragons together.  I can dismiss some of the possibilities as being partly to drive the story on that front, some things won't be explained... say maybe why Aegon isn't raised along with Dany and Viserys.  Sure it can be explained as a parallel to Egg in that line of thinking towards how to raise a good ruler, but then we must ask ourselves why then didn't Dany & Viserys get the same treatment in their raising?  I mean yes, all were raised modestly at best, we see that Viserys feels entitled at Illyrio's Manse, but I mean in terms of a maester, proper schooling, a small but capable retinue.  After Darry, would seem Dany & Viserys had it somewhat rough.  Now we can explain some of that with, Aegon was presumed dead, the other two not so much.  However, the disparity concerns me.  The plan to marry a Targaryen princess to a savage Khal, regardless of his 50k, concerns me when they have Aegon.  Yes that can be explained to, but that they would risk that precious commodity at all raises an eyebrow if their plan is as you say, merely about peace and prosperity in the realm.  There to me is more to it.  I won't dismiss the idea, it is possible but I find some of their choices suspect as the stated purpose is concerned.

[sweetsunray]

12 minutes ago, Khal Varys said:

but then we must ask ourselves why then didn't Dany & Viserys get the same treatment in their raising?

1. Raising them along with Aegon on the Shy Maid, Dany and Viserys would end up being believed to be dead. Then you have a situation where everybody belives all 3 are imposters. They needed witness accounts of both Dany and Viserys being alive.
2. While making sure of 1, Illyrio and Pentos cannot be implicated. Robert would grow dangerously suspicious if a guy in Pentos (pretty much straight across the Narrow Sea) would be raising them all of their young lives.
3. Much of their final peniless state seems to me Viserys's own doing. They were housed and dined by archons, triarchs and merchant princes in Myr, Tyrosh, Lys and Volantis. That sure wasn't a poor life. And they wouldn't have requried to pay for it. But Viserys is a - quite troublesome, entitled and quickly insulted and angered. In a young boy those archons, merchants princes and triarchs would have more patience wiith it than a late teen who might cause harm to their sons and daughters. b- likely has no sense of money and costs, and on the one hand would have spent a fortune on the wrong stuff, and likely robbed blind in negotiations to travel to another city. If the doors closed, it's likely all on him. We know it sure wasn't the Usurper (because Robert never ordered an assassination until aGoT, as Jon Arryn and Stannis were against it, and as a consequence neither LF nor Renly would have spoken for assassination)
4. Viserys doesn't sound like the guy who would have bothered with maesters and such, not for himself, certainly not his sister. If he had been smart, he could have used his mother's crown far more wisely for the both of them. But we know he wasn't a wise young man.

26 minutes ago, Khal Varys said:

The plan to marry a Targaryen princess to a savage Khal, regardless of his 50k, concerns me when they have Aegon.

Notice that Illyrio takes both of them in when Dany is 12. She's nearing the age where she can be expected to flower. Illyrio also mentions to Tyrion that initially Illyrio considered her for "himself", but he found her too weak, shy and feeble. Some interprete the contract between Toyne, JonCon and Illyrio to include the betrothal of Dany to Aegon. Not sure the text actually says that. But I do think that originally, Illyrio took both of them in, exactly because Dany was getting to the flowering age, and he contemplated marrying her to Aegon. But he's disappointed in her, and sees more advantage in making her a bride of Drogo, which would in time mean 50k Dothraki + 10k GC. Still, I don't think he wished her ill, but simply did not expect her to be of much use as a woman besides a warring brother and warring nephew. Might as well get the army out of it. 

The hint though that Illyrio and Varys initially planned the 3 to reclaim the IT together are the 3 dragon eggs. How many sellswords can you buy with those? How many ships? And dragon eggs were normally given to a Targ when born, right? I think Illyrio was mimicking that custom, 3 dragon eggs for 3 Targs - Viserys, Dany and Aegon. Or at least that's why he bought them initially or had them searched for. That he still entrusted them all 3 to Dany, is to me a sign of hope or well-wishing by Illyrio.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

The archon would have made marriages with influential merchants, sponsors, etc for his granddaughters.

You are jumping to nonsensical conclusions. The Archon of Tyrosh is elected. The fact that Rohanne's father was the archon in 184 AC when Daemon married Rohanne doesn't mean the same guy still lived and was in office in, say, the 210s when Daemon's sons were old enough to marry.

In addition, Bittersteel founded the Golden Company in 212 AC, and Haegon and his brothers may have been with him from then on, not so much their mother's family.

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And there's no reason to assume those were killed by a purge, as they wouldn't be Blackfyres by name anymore, but whomever they wed, nor a need to flee if the whomever they married in Tyrosh turned their coat against the Archon.

It is still not unlikely that any Blackfyre kin of Maelys' would have been with the Band of Nine and thus would have suffered once the Archon was restored. But again, we don't know whether there were any Blackfyres in Tyrosh by that time.

It is your ridiculous assertion that the Blackfyres have to be seen as associated with Tyrosh.

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The last confirmed location for the daughters is Tyrosh.

Who cares about the last confirmed location when that we are talking about decades before the War of the Ninepenny Kings? You are the one making a faulty assumption that information given in TMK and TWoIaF about events in the distant past is connected in any way to events in the present.

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Now, I'm sure that after several generations, the grandchildren and great-grandchildren ended up marrying down, rather than up, with boys joining sellsword companies and girls marrying sellsword captains, merchants and pirates, and they might move on to other Free Cities. There could be Blackfyres in Qohor, Norvos, Braavos, Pentos, Volantis, Myr, Lys and Slaver's Bay. I do not outright deny such a possibility, no less, no more.

What you did was make a ridiculous and fallacious proclamation that George would have associated the Blackfyres with Tyrosh when you have no evidence that this is so. That is silly statement. You are not George. You don't us what he is doing.

You could say that you think he would have done it or that you consider it likely that he would have done it but you didn't do that. You made a proclamation.

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And you have to provide evidence that a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre's daughters moved to Lys. You have no such evidence.

I don't have to prove that because there I never said that this is the case. Not to mention that you and I are both aware that I can't prove that with the information we have. It is you who make a lot of baseless assumption like that Princess Saera actually had children (in Lys) and that those children had descendants one of who is the whore Serra. There is no textual evidence to support any of that.

On the other hand, there are seven sons and an unspecified number of daughters of Daemon Blackfyre. Four of those sons may have had children of their own, as well as at least one daughter, Calla (with Bittersteel). Daemon Blackfyre could have had a dozen or even more grandchildren. It is much more likely that George introduced this overkill of Blackfyre cadet branches to allow some of the female branches to live into the main series.

Princess Saera has nothing to do with the main series.

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Because that is how George writes. He sets up literary parallels, works in stuff that would hint at it. And no it's not always name, or confirmed location of origin. It doesn't have to be a literal confirmed tie.

You don't seem to understand. Yes, there are patterns and parallels, but they are not as systematic as you proclaim they are. Aegon and Duck are also a strong parallels to Dunk and Egg (as are Brienne and Pod) - but this does not necessarily mean Aegon or Dunk are descended from them.

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In Aegon's case we have such literary ties, evne though they are not literal ones. Aegon dyes his hair blue and he lies it's because he mourns his mother who was from Tyrosh. That is a literary hint to Tyrosh, and therefore may be a Blackfyre hint. Despite the fact that either his mother was from Dorne (Elia Martell) or from Lys (Serra). But then again, Aegon also hates the blue dye, so he doesn't have the Tyroshi spirit.

Tyrosh has long been established as a place where people use dyes to color their hair. It is not a place connected specially to the Blackfyres. There are real connections to the Blackfyres in those chapters - the Golden Company, the contract written in blood, the mentioning of Bittersteel and Maelys the Monstrous.

Tyrosh is connected both to Daenerys and Viserys as well as to Doran Martell, neither of whom are connected to the Blackfyres (Arianne was supposed to become a ward of the Archon to visit Viserys there, and the brother of the Archon attended Dany's wedding).

And it is, by the way, in no way used in TMK in relation to Daemon II. The man has dyed hair, but it is dyed black, not in some fancy Tyroshi color.

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Another way to set up such a literary parallel is via that person's personality and preference of dress. A Tyroshi ancestry linked character would be boisterous, loud, loves garish colors for example.  A Bitterfyre descendant (Bittersteel + Carra Blackfyre) would be the previous + choleric, quick to anger, ... Those are identity parallels, rather than just repeating a role or theme. Varys is none of those things. He has no hair to dye either and he walks quietly even when not on slippers.

I never said Varys was a descendant of Bittersteel and Calla. I said it is likely that Illyrio is such a descendant. And no, the (great-)great-grandson of such a union doesn't have to share the temperament of his ancestor.

Especially not with the Targaryens. Rhaegar is nothing like Aerys II, Aerys II is nothing like Jaehaerys II, Aegon IV is nothing like Viserys II, Daeron II is nothing like Aegon IV, and so on and so forth.

Even Arya is nothing like Ned. She is like Lyanna and Brandon.

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That doesn't mean there might appear such literary parallels in tWoW, but they are absent for Varys from aGoT-aDwD. We do have such literary parallels for "murky" Myr when Varys disguises himself as the turnkey, or the begging brother, etc.  And his spymaster dress is more Lyseni and/or Braavosi.

Varys doesn't have to meet your arbitrary criteria. At least not as long as you aren't George. Are you George? He makes the rules there, not you. And the parallels you see or imagine are not necessarily the ones the author intended you to find.

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Yes, she might have. But I don't think so, beause of lack of literary hints to Tyrosh. I don't give a flying fuck if you don't care about such things. I do. I take it into account.

I don't care about your opinion, either.

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So, you can speculate, but I can't? My answer to that: an obscene gesture at the puter screen.

Speculation is okay when phrased and presented as speculation. You speculate and then present your speculation as the only logical conclusion, especially when you are telling weirdo tales like the one about Steffon Baratheon. TWoIaF makes it clear that Saera Targaryen became the owner of a famous pleasure house. The idea that the news of a Targaryen princess running a famous pleasure house (possibly for decades) would need Steffon Baratheon's visit to Volantis two centuries later to travel to KL just isn't very realistic.

A princess running a brothel would be a tourist attraction. If Princess Anne decided to open a brothel in New Zealand today the entire world would learn that soon enough. So would Westeros in Martinworld.

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No there doesn't have to be an explanation for it. Vanity and just plain personal ambition works too. Oh, a king wants me to spy a whole continent for him and will provide me the means (and so will Illyrio) - nice. Some people just like a new challenge once in a while, and find satisfaction in testing their boundaries.

Why do I travel 3-4 countries in 48 hours to catch my plane with every available public transport instaed of gradually working my way up? To see if I can make it. Some people like to challenge themselves, and can't say no to a challenge when offered to them, especially if they making a career out of it. Varys's carreer seems to fit the bill. Sorcerer says "you can die now", and instead he decides to "live" (that's a challenge-response) and does whatever is necessary to survive, getting personal pride out of it. Then h's forced to flee because of a rival and kicked and abused in the new town. Response? I'll show these Pentosi thieves. And it always gets bigger and bigger.

Telling personal anecdotes doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand. We don't know whether Varys felt he needed another challenge after rising to power in Pentos. And even if he did - why should he think running Westeros is a good challenge. Why not take over Myr, or Lys, or Volantis, or whatever.

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The founders of Volantis town and city weren't Valyrian dragonlords, but adventurers, exiles and traders. With the actual founder being the "wealthiest" not the "noblest", and certainly no dragonlord. That man could have been the Valyrian equivalent of a Frey. "Valyrian descent" applies to Valyrian adventurers, exiles and traders just as well.

With the context of merchants, adventurers, certainly "no dragonlords" etc "Kin and cousins" that is very much like Lannisters of Lannisport being kin and cousins to the Lannisters of the Rock, with some of noble stock and many non-noble, but still descendants of the Rock. Meanwhile in Lys it's the focus on "pure blood" rather than having the name of a descendant that makes that even commoners in Lys sport the Valyrian looks. In Lys "pure blood" is determined majorly on having the right looks (because they are recessive), while "old blood" has little to do with nobility nor looks, but basically having the right name.

Things are actually somewhat different. A dragonlord is defined as a dragonrider, basically (read Gyldayn's Conquest for that, Aegon and his sister proved themselves to be dragonlords before they wed). And it is quite correct that no dragonlord permanently settled in Volantis. But the brothers, sisters, cousins, etc. of dragonlords were among the founders of Volantis, and it is quite clear that they make up the ruling elite of Volantis during the wars against the Rhoynar.

There is no reason not to believe that a the dragonless sibling or cousin of a dragonlord could not be an 'adventurer', 'trader', or 'exile'. And neither is there any reason to believe that the Old Blood is not also very pure-blooded. They only marry amongst themselves, and non-Valyrian people (aside from slaves) are not permitted behind the Black Wall.

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I guess with these two quotes of yours combined our talk is at an end. You TINFOIL Saera would have sent a letter to Jaehaerys about being the owner of a brothel, and dismiss a reasonable argument given the fact that the other sister rather drowned herself in the Blackwater than say a thing to her parents because it's "SPECULATION". That's the perfect example of nonsensical discussion and debate. Won't even read the rest of that post.

We're done Varys.

I never said she did. You claimed that Jaehaerys I didn't know where his daughter ended up and that only Steffon Baratheon would have brought news of her whereabouts to Westeros (in a letter). I don't care whether Jaehaerys I knew or didn't know what happened to his daughter. We don't know. But we have no reason to believe that only Steffon Baratheon brought news about Saera's whereabouts to Westeros.

As to Princess Gael:

She was simple. And there is no hint that she drowned herself because she was afraid of her parents and their judgment. The way things are phrased is that she was heartbroken because that singer seduced her, made her pregnant, and then ran away. She killed herself because he 'left her with nothing but a growing belly'. But Gael didn't want a growing belly, she wanted the man who made it grow.

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Based on the above - Volantis certainly was an even more wrong place to look for that, hence Steffon only returned with a "fool". As I said, a "fool's errand".

That doesn't mean a journey to Lys would have been more profitable.

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That's unlikely, if they marry daughters to merchants and merchant princes and archons and triarchs of other Free Cities. Some Old Blood family surely would have had a daughter too many.

We actually don't know whether the Old Blood marries their daughters to people outside their own elite circles. The Volantene Old Blood (and the Lyseni elite, too) could still practice Valyrian incest. There is no evidence that Old Blood intermarries with the ruling classes of the other Free Cities.

But even if they did - this wouldn't be evidence that they would fall so low as to marry one of their daughters to the son of a barbaric king at the end of the world.

Illyrio shows how much the Free City establishment looks down on the savage custom of Westeros. And Volantis is the oldest daughter of Valyria. The Targaryens certainly would have been worthy of the daughters of the Old Blood when they still were dragonlords.

And vice versa, Steffon wouldn't have looked for just any Volantene noblewoman of pure-blooded descent. He would have wanted the best blood for the son of his king, and that would have meant that he looked among the most powerful and wealthiest families of Volantis. Perhaps he found some candidates, perhaps the negotiations went sour, the families demanded to high a dowry, etc.

[Vaedys Targaryen]

2 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Thats where i was going for. Illyrios involvment in the targaryen restoration is usually explained by (f)Aegon theory. He is placing his son on the iron throne. Fair enough

But Varys? Well readers asume he is Serras brother, therefore Aegon his nephew.

But if Varys is Serra.. then it makes more sense IMHO.

He/she could be the implied female line of house blackfyre... or the Brightflame descedent. Depending on which version of the (f)aegon theory you prefer.

We know he kind of dresses like a woman. Painting his fingernails and all that. It would be an awesome hint if Varys were Serra.

again, i admit its a weak theory. Still it has been speculated over the years that Varys was really a woman. I never saw much use in that. What would be the point?

unless, he was specifically Serra. Then yes. The Varys being a woman theory would make much more sense.

Varys might've also gained weight intentionally, because if he had been thin, him being a woman would've been a dead give-away, shaved head or not. But if he had gained weight, he would've also hid many womanly (and manly) traits, as some rather chubby men do look rather effeminate when shaved (no offence to chubby men) and it also hides an Adam's apple, as if Varys is woman he wouldn't have or if he truly isn't a eunuch, his extra chins would hide it.

But I also just realised that being Master of Whisperers has in the past been the job of two women, namely Tyanna of the Tower and Mysaria, the White Worm or Lady Misery. Both of these women are from Pentos and Lys respectively, both were mistresses (one later became the wife) of troublesome Targaryens (not quite sure if that has a connection, though), both were Mistresses of Whisperers and both were familiar with the secret tunnels of the Red Keep.

I'm fairly certain that I am reading way to much into this, but it's funny what you discover when you do it. 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Doh!

• Q: Is Varys truly a eunuch, or is it just another of his many disguises?

  GRRM: Guess we won't know till someone takes a peek inside his breeches.

Damn, I'm not saying that I'm beginning to believe the theory, but I do like where all these replies are going, so keep them coming! 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Khal Varys said:

I should say, I believe that theorum is possible, I think I personally would find that answer a bit dull as a reveal to that particular mystery is concerned.  I don't mind if this theory is true or whatever, for me the mystery is so thick that no personal motivation whatsoever seems odd.  It could be that would represent a very interesting character underneath to dedicate his life to that type of risky investment... but for the moment I'd like to think there's just a bit of personal motivation that they've done so well in masking.  Perhaps Illyrio has already shown his hand being a possible sire to young Aegon.

Illyrio certainly must also have a personal reason to allow his son to risk his life to gain the Iron Throne. That is a risky enterprise. It could go wrong. And his son could die.

1 hour ago, Khal Varys said:

Part of the problem I have with Aegon is the delay in bringing the three dragons together.  I can dismiss some of the possibilities as being partly to drive the story on that front, some things won't be explained... say maybe why Aegon isn't raised along with Dany and Viserys.  Sure it can be explained as a parallel to Egg in that line of thinking towards how to raise a good ruler, but then we must ask ourselves why then didn't Dany & Viserys get the same treatment in their raising?  I mean yes, all were raised modestly at best, we see that Viserys feels entitled at Illyrio's Manse, but I mean in terms of a maester, proper schooling, a small but capable retinue.  After Darry, would seem Dany & Viserys had it somewhat rough.  Now we can explain some of that with, Aegon was presumed dead, the other two not so much.  However, the disparity concerns me.  The plan to marry a Targaryen princess to a savage Khal, regardless of his 50k, concerns me when they have Aegon.  Yes that can be explained to, but that they would risk that precious commodity at all raises an eyebrow if their plan is as you say, merely about peace and prosperity in the realm.  There to me is more to it.  I won't dismiss the idea, it is possible but I find some of their choices suspect as the stated purpose is concerned.

It is definitely a plan where not all eggs were hidden in one basket.

But the Aegon plan and any plans involving Viserys were made independently. Viserys was originally in the care of Ser Willem Darry and then later hanging out with other hosts and benefactors. Connington was only given Aegon a couple of years after the Sack. Only then did this plan take shape, and uniting Viserys and Aegon could have been considered to great a risk, especially in light of Viserys' personality.

[Khal Varys]

21 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

1. Raising them along with Aegon on the Shy Maid, Dany and Viserys would end up being believed to be dead. Then you have a situation where everybody belives all 3 are imposters. They needed witness accounts of both Dany and Viserys being alive.
2. While making sure of 1, Illyrio and Pentos cannot be implicated. Robert would grow dangerously suspicious if a guy in Pentos (pretty much straight across the Narrow Sea) would be raising them all of their young lives.
3. Much of their final peniless state seems to me Viserys's own doing. They were housed and dined by archons, triarchs and merchant princes in Myr, Tyrosh, Lys and Volantis. That sure wasn't a poor life. And they wouldn't have requried to pay for it. But Viserys is a - quite troublesome, entitled and quickly insulted and angered. In a young boy those archons, merchants princes and triarchs would have more patience wiith it than a late teen who might cause harm to their sons and daughters. b- likely has no sense of money and costs, and on the one hand would have spent a fortune on the wrong stuff, and likely robbed blind in negotiations to travel to another city. If the doors closed, it's likely all on him. We know it sure wasn't the Usurper (because Robert never ordered an assassination until aGoT, as Jon Arryn and Stannis were against it, and as a consequence neither LF nor Renly would have spoken for assassination)
4. Viserys doesn't sound like the guy who would have bothered with maesters and such, not for himself, certainly not his sister. If he had been smart, he could have used his mother's crown far more wisely for the both of them. But we know he wasn't a wise young man.

Notice that Illyrio takes both of them in when Dany is 12. She's nearing the age where she can be expected to flower. Illyrio also mentions to Tyrion that initially Illyrio considered her for "himself", but he found her too weak, shy and feeble. Some interprete the contract between Toyne, JonCon and Illyrio to include the betrothal of Dany to Aegon. Not sure the text actually says that. But I do think that originally, Illyrio took both of them in, exactly because Dany was getting to the flowering age, and he contemplated marrying her to Aegon. But he's disappointed in her, and sees more advantage in making her a bride of Drogo, which would in time mean 50k Dothraki + 10k GC. Still, I don't think he wished her ill, but simply did not expect her to be of much use as a woman besides a warring brother and warring nephew. Might as well get the army out of it. 

The hint though that Illyrio and Varys initially planned the 3 to reclaim the IT together are the 3 dragon eggs. How many sellswords can you buy with those? How many ships? And dragon eggs were normally given to a Targ when born, right? I think Illyrio was mimicking that custom, 3 dragon eggs for 3 Targs - Viserys, Dany and Aegon. Or at least that's why he bought them initially or had them searched for. That he still entrusted them all 3 to Dany, is to me a sign of hope or well-wishing by Illyrio.

Of course nothing to dispute here, I just find it a bit convenient.

Ok so if we take them at there word... Varys rescues baby Aegon and ushers him out of KL.  Yet it takes 4-5 years for them to broker the deal with JC and Toyne.  Meanwhile Viserys and Dany are under Darry's care and while they do have gracious hosts, their future is not certain nor is there much indication that Illyrio and Varys are involved with them from the moment they flee Dragonstone or shortly thereafter.  So they had their hands on Aegon first, that we truly know of, but it's possible they were involved fairly early.  

While yes, all that you said is true so far as we know, I find it convenient.  While I believe that Viserys was useful to a point, I don't think they wanted him to be the King figure they put forth.  How soon they realized this is a question.  If they did, then again I question risking Dany to a Khal.  Sure she may have been all those things Illyrio saw but I don't believe they would be so bold as to put her forth as the Queen to be, so Dany best served them in my view by being wed to Aegon.  She gives him the legitimacy that seems to have been a question mark absent Viserys or Daenerys.  As it's turning out, they're putting him forth, or rather, he ia revealing himself without the benefit of Dany's Targaryen lineage so far.  Now, when it starts coming out that Aegon is Rhaegar's believed dead child, while most common folk won't be privy to what's been going on behind the scenes, if Dany catches wind, she might.  Surely the issue is going to he raisednwith Illyrio at some point by Tyrion or Dany.  If Dany is privy to the fact that Illyrio was behind both the plot for Viserys and this separate plot with the GC and Aegon, surely she must wonder why certain things were kept secret from her and even Viserys.

 

That's why I think there's something else going on... if it's simply that Aegon is Illyrio's child and that's the reason behind these oddities then that's cool.  But for Aegon to be real with the actions of Illyrio and Varys, I question their choices and don't buy their stated reasons, all very reasonable but to me they don't add up when you're talking about the last three surviving Targaryens.  One is a female... one has legitimacy issues... marriage is the first and easy answer.  Viserys proved unworthy, but Aegon shows all the promise they purport to desire.  Yet... not saying 50k is not substantial, but a good strategist would reckon that Dothraki might have issues with sieges, might have issues against a proper spear wall.  I argue that's with the wealth they can generate, raising an army shouldn't be such an issue that you sacrifice a Targaryen female.  I just can't fathom that as being a valuable enough trade for the alternatives that Dany represented.  

 

I like your thoughts about the eggs, but I'm not certain he bought them yet.  I do find it curious that he presents Dany with all 3 if they were intended as you say, one for each as per the custom.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

 

33 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Varys might've also gained weight intentionally, because if he had been thin, him being a woman would've been a dead give-away, shaved head or not. But if he had gained weight, he would've also hid many womanly (and manly) traits, as some rather chubby men do look rather effeminate when shaved (no offence to chubby men) and it also hides an Adam's apple, as if Varys is woman he wouldn't have or if he truly isn't a eunuch, his extra chins would hide it.

 

 

agreed.

Quote

I'm fairly certain that I am reading way to much into this, but it's funny what you discover when you do it. 

you are not. let your imagination run free.

we have another woman passing as a men, to enter a male only organization (IIRC the small council does not allow women to serve.... your examples of female masters of whispers were kind of informal). Salleras.

 

Also Sweets, kind of another Valyrian (he is said to have purple eyes)... though he is an hermaphrodite IRRC

 

 

 

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, Khal Varys said:

Of course nothing to dispute here, I just find it a bit convenient.

Ok so if we take them at there word... Varys rescues baby Aegon and ushers him out of KL.  

Euhm, I didn't say that altogether. Aegon can still be say Serra's son and not the actual Aegon, and they could still want Viserys and Dany.

It's as Strickland says in aDwD- Without Dany, Westerosi will think he's an imposter. Viserys and Dany are the two who make Aegon credible. So, they are using them. But that doesn't mean it's an either/or situation. It's not because they wanted to use Viserys, that they wanted Viserys dead or even intended any harm to him. The using-then-planned-disposing-when-served-their-purpose is LF's way of thinking. Varys and Illyrio turn out to operate far more inclusive. Whether that is an actually realistic plan with a guy like Viserys is another thing. But three united Targs are stronger once in triarch power than just the one monarch. Illyrio and Varys could very well think like that, because most Free Cities are ruled by several Magisters or Triarchs or Princes. The 3 eggs symbolize that, and it's more logical to give them to one of the two known Targs. Once Aegon joins them, Dany or Viserys could "share an egg", and thus symbolically endow him with the Targ egg symbol. There is more credibility in Dany or Viserys giving one to Aegon, than Illyrio giving one to Aegon.

And yes of course Dany has been made far more suspicious, with the help of Jorah's insistence. On top of that, Selmy agreed to give Pentos to the Tattered Prince. So, it seems that Illyrio may end up being kiled or taken down by Dany's armies, even though his help of Viserys and Dany was far more genuine than most of us think. As I said, that doesn't mean Illyrio is not playing them false, or not using them, just not with pre-meditated murder in mind.

Think of it as the Pentosi way. They have a Prince of Pentos, and they genuinely wish him a long and pleasurable life, but if the circumstances demand it, they chop the prince's head off and make another the Prince of Pentos. And so it is imo too in Illyrio's mind with Viserys and Dany. He wishes them a long and pleasurable, prosperous life, but when Westeros's crop fails and a scapegoat is required, Viserys and Dany would be that scapegoat. Illyrio would still believe he did them a good deed though, because even though it's certain a crop will fail, one cannot predict when it will fail (could be next year, 5 years, 10 years or more), and without him, they wouldn't be anything.

Meanwhile, Illyrio seems to experience the saying that plans fail not because it's a bad plan, but because of everyone else [not doing what you planned them to do].