Heresy 198 The Knight of the Laughing Tree

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, WeKnowNothing said:

GRRM does not use the term 'Queen of Love and Beauty' anywhere in the first book. In fact it was non-existent at that time, and GRRM only first used the phrase the next time he mentions the tourney - which I'm guessing was in the second or third book. Obviously in the first book, GRRM would want us to think Rhaegar raped Lyanna and the crown was meant as an insult of some sort. It wasn't until the later books, is where the 'love' aspect came in whenever they were mentioned. And Selmy would know more than Ned about Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship, since atleast he was at kings Landing near Rhaegar. Eventhough Selmy wasn't one of the closest friends, he would know something, anything about Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna. Ned wouldn't admit it was a love relationship in the first place, because it would be difficult for him to acknowledge Lyanna fell in love/ran off with Rhaegar.

Yes, this does imply she was married to Rhaegar. But there was also 'gore splattered on her dress' which could refer to the childbirth as that was how she died (in her 'bed of blood'). So in total, it could just tell us she married Rhaegar, then died giving birth to his child - which looks to becoming true at the moment.

The only time the crown is described inclusive of a romantic interest specific to Lyanna is when Meera tells Howland's version of the story to Bran.  Again I think it's projection on the part of the story-teller; reflective of their own feelings about awarding such a laurel.  Ned is the only character who knows what truly happened and he doesn't include romantic intent.  So I think that's very telling.

I am not on the same page as you with respect to RLJ.  If there was a secret marriage, it's more likely in my view, to have been Robert that she wed.  When Lyanna tells Ned that 'love is sweet, but  it won't change a man's nature'; the common interpretation is that she is acknowledging that Robert loves her.  But I think it's entirely possible that she is talking about her own feelings of love and her fears about Robert's fidelity.

Second on my list is the little crannogman, Howland Reed who took Lyanna's hand from Ned's.

As a political target and valuable hostage; it makes sense that Lyanna would have to disappear for her own safety.  She may also have been adbducted. 

I do agree that the gore spattered dress is suggestive of child-birth and I think that's also related to the twin white fawns (banner) spattered with blood hung prominently at Robert's feast, celebrating his victories at Summerhall.  I'd go so far as to say that this is GRRM's sly way of making a birth announcement. 

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Yes, this does imply she was married to Rhaegar. But there was also 'gore splattered on her dress' which could refer to the childbirth as that was how she died (in her 'bed of blood'). So in total, it could just tell us she married Rhaegar, then died giving birth to his child - which looks to becoming true at the moment.

The exact phrase used is actually 'spattered with gore' not 'gore splattered'.  It doesn't necessarily tell us anything about Lyanna's manner of death, except that some violence was involved -- either the violence of the birthing bed or the battlefield (remember that a woman in labor is directly compared to a soldier in battle):

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The Crow's Eye will fight, that is certain. No woman could defeat him, not even Asha; women were made to fight their battles in the birthing bed.  (AFFC -- The Prophet)

Given that GRRM has introduced us to a number of martial female characters like Asha, Arya, Brienne, and perhaps even Lyanna (given Bran's vision, and especially if she is the KOTLT), then there is no guarantee that the 'gore spattering' refers to childbirth over another mortal wound perhaps sustained in a fight.  Perhaps Lyanna was only doing some 'needlework' -- being a woman is a perilous affair!  It's even possible that Lyanna may have been murdered.  We have no means to rule anything out, which means we will have to bear two options or more in mind at any time, as I've discussed above with reference to Robert Frost and Schroedinger's Cat.  

Even the 'bloody bed' -- why does that have to signify childbirth?  Robert Baratheon also died in a bloody bed, without childbirth (although a rough C-section is suggested by the way his abdomen had been opened, i.e. 'ripped from groin to nipple')!  We jump to the conclusion of childbirth in the former as a consequence of our own prejudices, though I see no reason Lyanna couldn't have been mortally injured in some other manner.  We just don't have enough information to adjudicate the matter.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

Fires blazed in the twin hearths at either end of the bedchamber, filling the room with a sullen red glare. The heat within was suffocating. Robert lay across the canopied bed. At the bedside hovered Grand Maester Pycelle, while Lord Renly paced restlessly before the shuttered windows. Servants moved back and forth, feeding logs to the fire and boiling wine. Cersei Lannister sat on the edge of the bed beside her husband. Her hair was tousled, as if from sleep, but there was nothing sleepy in her eyes. They followed Ned as Tomard and Cayn helped him cross the room. He seemed to move very slowly, as if he were still dreaming.

The king still wore his boots. Ned could see dried mud and blades of grass clinging to the leather where Robert's feet stuck out beneath the blanket that covered him. A green doublet lay on the floor, slashed open and discarded, the cloth crusted with red-brown stains. The room smelled of smoke and blood and death.

"Ned," the king whispered when he saw him. His face was pale as milk. "Come … closer."

His men brought him close. Ned steadied himself with a hand on the bedpost. He had only to look down at Robert to know how bad it was. "What . . . ?" he began, his throat clenched.

"A boar." Lord Renly was still in his hunting greens, his cloak spattered with blood.

"A devil," the king husked. "My own fault. Too much wine, damn me to hell. Missed my thrust."

"And where were the rest of you?" Ned demanded of Lord Renly. "Where was Ser Barristan and the Kingsguard?"

Renly's mouth twitched. "My brother commanded us to stand aside and let him take the boar alone."

Eddard Stark lifted the blanket.

They had done what they could to close him up, but it was nowhere near enough. The boar must have been a fearsome thing. It had ripped the king from groin to nipple with its tusks. The wine-soaked bandages that Grand Maester Pycelle had applied were already black with blood, and the smell off the wound was hideous. Ned's stomach turned. He let the blanket fall.

"Stinks," Robert said. "The stink of death, don't think I can't smell it. Bastard did me good, eh? But I . . . I paid him back in kind, Ned." The king's smile was as terrible as his wound, his teeth red. "Drove a knife right through his eye. Ask them if I didn't. Ask them."

Have a look at the other instances of GRRM's use of that exact phrase 'spattered with gore.'  In total, 'spattered with gore' appears thrice (including the Lyanna reference) -- and that's not taking into account all of the other more numerous instances of the related phrase 'blood spattered,' as above.  Notably, the other two occasions involve warriors caught in the thick of battle, covered with the gore of others they have slain -- other people's gore.  That's another idea I haven't seen explored yet.  Why are we so sure the gore represents Lyanna's blood?  Maybe it's someone else's!  If we're really going to follow through with this exercise in textual deconstruction, the hallmark of the 'heretic' enterprise in which we take nothing at face value; then we have to be honest that two out of three instances (66.66%) of the phrase involve a battle scenario, in which the 'gore' involved is exclusively someone else's blood (the warriors involved had not yet sustained wounds in the fight at the point they were noted to be 'spattered with gore').  So why are we even so certain the gore in the third context has to be as a result of childbirth?

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A Clash of Kings - Theon V

King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King's Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller's wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran's life.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

Theon woke with a scream, startling Wex so badly that the boy ran naked from the room. When his guards burst in with drawn swords, he ordered them to bring him the maester. By the time Luwin arrived rumpled and sleepy, a cup of wine had steadied Theon's hands, and he was feeling ashamed of his panic. "A dream," he muttered, "that was all it was. It meant nothing."

 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion XIV

"I yield, ser," a different knight called out, farther down the river. "Yield. Ser knight, I yield to you. My pledge, here, here." The man lay in a puddle of black water, offering up a lobstered gauntlet in token of submission. Tyrion had to lean down to take it from him. As he did, a pot of wildfire burst overhead, spraying green flame. In the sudden stab of light he saw that the puddle was not black but red. The gauntlet still had the knight's hand in it. He flung it back. "Yield," the man sobbed hopelessly, helplessly. Tyrion reeled away.

A man-at-arms grabbed the bridle of his horse and thrust at Tyrion's face with a dagger. He knocked the blade aside and buried the axe in the nape of the man's neck. As he was wresting it free, a blaze of white appeared at the edge of his vision. Tyrion turned, thinking to find Ser Mandon Moore beside him again, but this was a different white knight. Ser Balon Swann wore the same armor, but his horse trappings bore the battling black-and-white swans of his House. He's more a spotted knight than a white one, Tyrion thought inanely. Every bit of Ser Balon was spattered with gore and smudged by smoke. He raised his mace to point downriver. Bits of brain and bone clung to its head. "My lord, look."

Tyrion swung his horse about to peer down the Blackwater. The current still flowed black and strong beneath, but the surface was a roil of blood and flame. The sky was red and orange and garish green. "What?" he said. Then he saw.

 

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion X

The stable was behind him. Spectators screamed and shoved at each other to get out of the way. One stumbled into Oberyn's back. Ser Gregor hacked down with all his savage strength. The Red Viper threw himself sideways, rolling.The luckless stableboy behind him was not so quick. As his arm rose to protect his face, Gregor's sword took it off between elbow and shoulder. "Shut UP!" the Mountain howled at the stableboy's scream, and this time he swung the blade sideways, sending the top half of the lad's head across the yard in a spray of blood and brains. Hundreds of spectators suddenly seemed to lose all interest in the guilt or innocence of Tyrion Lannister, judging by the way they pushed and shoved at each other to escape the yard.

But the Red Viper of Dorne was back on his feet, his long spear in hand. "Elia," he called at Ser Gregor. "You raped her. You murdered her. You killed her children. Now say her name."

The Mountain whirled. Helm, shield, sword, surcoat; he was spattered with gore from head to heels. "You talk too much," he grumbled. "You make my head hurt."

"I will hear you say it. She was Elia of Dorne."

 

ETA:  

P.S.  I like your avatar name!  Indeed, 'we know nothing' -- not even when it comes to a simple gory spattering -- and GRRM aims to keep it that way!  

[JNR]

15 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Or, perhaps he didn't need proof at all, because the "Aegon Lives!" revelation five years down the line blended seamlessly into private knowledge he already held.

This is a possibility that occurred to me too.  However, I think in such a scenario, given what appears to be his deep love for Rhaegar, he would have wanted to protect Rhaegar's son immediately, to improve Aegon's odds of winning the Throne...

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Death, he knew, but slow. I still have time. A year. Two years. Five. Some stone men live for ten. Time enough to cross the sea, to see Griffin's Roost again. To end the Usurper's line for good and all, and put Rhaegar's son upon the Iron Throne.

Then Lord Jon Connington could die content.

...or if he were going to delay protecting Rhaegar's son by years, he'd want to guarantee he'd survive for years.  Serving as a mercenary seems a doubtful plan if he wants to guarantee any such thing.

15 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The illusion the author is spinning, however, giving false hope to millions of fans, is that sufficient 'hard' clues exist that would potentially enable the 'right ones to be saved'

I really don't know what "right ones" you're talking about, unless you mean the right fan theories... but fan theories don't really need to be saved. 

Anybody who's fearful of what may become of a precious theory is perhaps acting a little too much like Gollum. 

Really, this thing GRRM's doing is not even a new thing in literature.  It's just a new thing in fantasy literature. 

If you've read his site, you know GRRM has spent a great deal of time reading and appreciating murder mysteries.  And if you've read a few hundred of those, you're already familiar with all this epistemological stuff and you can see that it's just not all up in the air.  Agatha Christie wasn't just leaving her doors open as she wrote her books.  She had a plan, she dropped clues, and she gave readers just enough to puzzle things out.

And it is possible with ASOIAF to figure out quite a lot in advance, just as it is with a good Christie novel.  Not everything, though, because of course we do have two books remaining (at least... sigh) and they are both going to be gigantic tomes.

15 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I think GRRM has left his options open, trying to 'travel both roads and be one traveller' and 'keeping the first road for another day.'

If so, he's a shameless liar, because this is the exact opposite of what he's told us he did in interviews, and IMO he's definitely not a liar.

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

Selmy views awarding the crown of roses as a romantic gesture because this is how he views the act himself in relation to Ashara Dayne.

Yep, I agree.  He is exceedingly romantic at heart, pursuing idealized notions all his life, and apparently sees others through this lens.

[JNR]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The first and most obvious is that Selmy wasn't privy to what Rhaegar was planning. Dayne was. This in itself points to premeditation. Whatever the actual source those Winter roses had to be found and woven into a chaplet beforehand. That takes planning and above all time, which in turn implies that it was set in motion long before the mystery knight rode into the lists. 

On pretty much all this, we agree. 

I've read Brad Stark making the same point several times, that winter roses are not so easily or instantly obtained that Rhaegar could win the tourney, realize he had the power to crown the queen, and then conjure some up, and of course, he was always right when he said that.

[Matthew.]

14 hours ago, JNR said:

But as you've now pointed out, there's no certainty that he was accurate at all.  That means it doesn't matter what Selmy thinks; his thoughts don't make Rhaegar's feelings any less ambiguous.  So we now agree.

"There's no certainty he was accurate" is not the same thing as "it doesn't matter what Selmy thinks." To reiterate, his opinions do not exist in a vacuum, they fit into a broader storytelling context regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna.

When I speak of the ambiguity of Rhaegar's feelings, I'm referring to the way they have been presented to the reader; unambiguously, this is not a comment from Selmy that might suggest that Rhaegar was driven by lust, or bored with his wife, or looking to breed a third head of the dragon, or whatever. The accuracy cannot be determined, but the meaning is crystal clear. This goes to narrative presentation, and I stand behind my conclusion--GRRM is writing about Rhaegar's feelings in a way that is increasingly less ambiguous than the context we're provided by AGOT. 

It's one thing to acknowledge that Selmy's thoughts could be untrue, it's another to dismiss them outright, especially when they can be viewed in a broader, cohesive context. 

Put another way, if all else in Selmy's POV had been equal, but he'd thought "Rhaegar loved his Lady Elia, despite the rumors..." wouldn't we agree that it's an important thought to discuss in attempting to assess Rhaegar's motives?
 

15 hours ago, JNR said:

Which one do you mean?  I can think of a vision involving Rhaegar that's actually quite a problem for RLJ.

The dying prince with a woman's name on his lips. Yes, the vision might not be Rhaegar, and yes the woman might not be Lyanna, but because the vision suits Rhaegar's death to a reasonable degree, it potentially goes toward the discussion pages ago that spawned this tangent in the first place: was Rhaegar the type to make a romantic gesture, or have the winter roses been misunderstood? The premise was that the underlying motives were far more calculated and political.

If the figure in the vision is Rhaegar, do his dying thoughts give us insight into what he values, into potential regrets about what he is about to lose? He does not die cursing his enemy, or lamenting the collapse of his (purported) political aspirations, or think about TPTWP, or the dragons, or even the fate of the realm--his last thoughts are of a woman. 

[JNR]

1 minute ago, Matthew. said:

"There's no certainty he was accurate" is not the same thing as "it doesn't matter what Selmy thinks." To reiterate, his opinions do not exist in a vacuum, they fit into a broader storytelling context regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna.

That's true, but that story in Westeros (meaning the continent, more than the Web site) was spun by people without any real knowledge of the matter.

They were just doing what seemed simple and obvious -- like looking at a giraffe and saying "Obviously the giraffe has a long neck because for centuries, its ancestors stretched and stretched to reach food in trees, and giraffes today inherited all that stretching."  The subtler truth is a lot harder to see, which is why we as a species never did see it until the 19th century.

To reiterate, what the Kingbreaker chapter tells us on this topic, in my view, is that (1) Selmy sees Rhaegar's situation as a big tragic romance... (2) Selmy was never part of Rhaegar's inner circle, never fully trusted... and (3) whatever happened at Harrenhal involving Rhaegar (doing what?) is the proof of that lack of trust in Selmy's mind.  He was shut out and he knows it. 

If you want to look at those three items and say "GRRM is trying to trick us into thinking Rhaegar loved Lyanna," of course you can, and you might be right, but that's just not the way I read that info.  I only say "Selmy is not a very impressive authority on Rhaegar's feelings and actions."

10 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

The dying prince with a woman's name on his lips.

Ah yes, that one.  Well, I'll agree with you this far:

Whatever the truth involving Rhaegar and Lyanna, she would have to have been very important to him (in some sense), to have done what he did at Harrenhal.  

He also, going by what he said to Jaime, expected to survive the Trident and thus, expected to be able to do something, re that importance (whatever it may have been).  In dying, he would have had quite a horrible realization that that was never going to happen.  And so he might, if that vision were him, have said her name.

Whether the importance involved the fact that she was a love object for him, or something else, is not nearly as clear to me as all that.  I interpret that as a good instance of GRRM being deliberately (ravenous reader might say "maddeningly") ambiguous.

[ravenous reader]

34 minutes ago, JNR said:

I really don't know what "right ones" you're talking about, unless you mean the right fan theories... but fan theories don't really need to be saved. 

LOL.  I hadn't thought of that interpretation!  I was referring to another Frost Poem, 'Directive', in which we find these lines:

I have kept hidden in the instep arch
Of an old cedar at the waterside
A broken drinking goblet like the Grail
Under a spell so the wrong ones can't find it,
So can't get saved, as Saint Mark says they mustn't.

Besides the 'I' in question referring to the poet and his relationship to his audience, the reference to 'getting saved' is a biblical one from the Gospel of St Mark, referring to how only very few select people -- 'the chosen ones', i.e. the 'right' vs. 'wrong ones'-- the ones who are able to unlock the parables in which the elusive meaning lies coiled -- will get to enter the kingdom of heaven.  Analogously, the idea is that only certain elite readers will enter GRRM's 'heaven', by solving his riddles!!!  Are you one of them, JNR?  How about Voice?  LmL?  At least I'm pretty sure -- so at least we know something! -- I will not be among that number; not being cut out for 'saving,' I must be one of the 'damned,' lacking the patience and stamina to withstand GRRM's decades-long striptease (eventually, I just require some, shall we say, 'firmer' knowledge in order to truly satisfy me...).  

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Anybody who's fearful of what may become of a precious theory is perhaps acting a little too much like Gollum. 

Inevitably, certain theories will be weeded out and fall by the wayside, while others more robust will stand the test of time.  This process of discrimination does create anxiety for some!

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Really, this thing GRRM's doing is not even a new thing in literature.  It's just a new thing in fantasy literature. 

If you've read his site, you know GRRM has spent a great deal of time reading and appreciating murder mysteries.  And if you've read a few hundred of those, you're already familiar with all this epistemological stuff and you can see that it's just not all up in the air.  Agatha Christie wasn't just leaving her doors open as she wrote her books.  She had a plan, she dropped clues, and she gave readers just enough to puzzle things out.

The difference between GRRM and Agatha Christie is that the latter gives us the answer in the end, as delivered in a single voice of authority (Hercule Poirot or Miss Marple) taking precedence over all other POVs.   GRRM does not follow this narrative structure, nor is there any single voice of authority, bar his own -- and that one, as I've indicated, is 'hidden in an instep arch...a broken grail...under a spell so the wrong ones can't find it...'

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And it is possible with ASOIAF to figure out quite a lot in advance, just as it is with a good Christie novel.  Not everything, though, because of course we do have two books remaining (at least... sigh) and they are both going to be gigantic tomes.

16 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I think GRRM has left his options open, trying to 'travel both roads and be one traveller' and 'keeping the first road for another day.'

If so, he's a shameless liar, because this is the exact opposite of what he's told us he did in interviews, and IMO he's definitely not a liar.

An author often says one thing in interviews; while his text expresses another.  Someone who is 'allusive' and 'elusive' is not necessarily a liar.  What did he say that gives you so much faith in 'being saved' from this activity of 'staring up at the bloody blue'...?  

[Matthew.]

15 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I think GRRM has left his options open, trying to 'travel both roads and be one traveller' and 'keeping the first road for another day.'  He has suggested solutions, without providing the means to prove any of them 'conclusively.'  And, in the end, we may just have to be (un)satisfied with that!

It's fair to say that GRRM uses ambiguity to keep his future plot options open, but I don't really think he's trying to do that with the past--especially with Robert's Rebellion, where his ideas seem to be a little more "baked in." He admits to inventing new twists on the fly - often leading to the rewrites that have slowed his release pace down in the first place - but also claims that certain aspects are immune to that whimsy--notably, Jon's parentage.

That said, I wouldn't mind if GRRM refuses to answer things in a way that's "conclusive," which I suppose goes to personal taste--I've never seen Lost, but I'm going to assume, based on its polarizing reception, that Lindelof's approach to mysteries within Lost was as frustrating as it was in Prometheus and The Leftovers--both of which I love. Ambiguity only becomes frustrating (to me) if questions are unanswerable, as opposed to unanswered.

[JNR]

16 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Analogously, the idea is that only certain elite readers will enter GRRM's 'heaven', by solving his riddles!!!

Ah, that's pretty funny.  These are just fantasy novels; I'm not that invested in my own theories, though I think you're right that some are.

I'm mainly arguing here for the premise that GRRM went about his major mysteries in a planned and careful fashion... totally unlike, for instance, the show-runners of the TV show Lost.  That there was a plan and he stuck to it.  And that it was a very good plan.

16 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Someone who is 'allusive' and 'elusive' is not necessarily a liar.  What did he say that gives you so much faith in 'being saved' from this activity of 'staring up at the bloody blue'...?

Many, many things.  One is this:

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I’ve wrestled with this issue, because I do want to surprise my readers. I hate predictable fiction as a reader, I don’t want to write predictable fiction…I want to surprise and delight my reader and take them in directions they didn’t see coming. But I can’t change the plans. That’s one of the reasons I used to read the early fan boards back in the 90s but stopped. One, I didn’t have the time, but two is this very issue. So many readers were reading the books with so much attention that they were throwing up some theories and while some of those theories were amusing bullshit and creative, some of the theories are right. At least one or two readers had put together the extremely subtle and obscure clues that I’d planted in the books and came to the right solution.

So what do I do then? Do I change it! I wrestled with that issue and I came to the conclusion that changing it would be a disaster, because the clues were there. You can’t do that, so I’m just going to go ahead.

Now bear in mind the boards he's talking about -- as he tells us outright -- are boards from the nineties.

This means even back then, in the nineties, he had already dropped clues... in accordance with a plan that he refused to change... despite the fact that at least one or two fans had picked up on the clues and had come to a correct solution (on at least one major mystery).

That quote above is from 2014.  So we also know that from the nineties all the way through 2014, he never changed this plan and he never invalidated the clues (that he had dropped in the early books). 

So if, all along, he had no plan, was not dropping extremely subtle clues, and was simply leaving his doors open... the above quotation is a flat-out lie.  

But as I said, I have never believed George is a liar.  I think he's subtle and ambiguous.

[Matthew.]

5 minutes ago, JNR said:

He also, going by what he said to Jaime, expected to survive the Trident and thus, expected to be able to do something, re that importance (whatever it may have been).  In dying, he would have had quite a horrible realization that that was never going to happen.  And so he might, if that vision were him, have said her name.

Not implausible, which goes toward the ambiguity you cite. There are, after all, unresolved questions about what was going on at Starfall, what the deal is with "Aegon VI," and whether that House with the Red Door is in Dorne--all of which could relate to Lyanna in unexpected ways.

Similarly, while I personally believe that Summerhall's significance to Rhaegar and his harp playing is about the Prince of Dragonflies and Jenny of Oldstones, it could also reasonably foreshadow the idea of Rhaegar living under the "shadow" of House Targaryen's obsession with hatching eggs; similarly, the Tower of Joy might have earned it's name if he were on the verge of realizing some long held dream to fulfill the prophecies.

Where we might differ is, the fact that all of that can be read in a different light means that unambiguous "information" becomes all the more important, even if that information could ultimately prove to be mistaken.

Notably, I'm not convinced that Selmy needed to be a close friend of Rhaegars--Rhaegar had already presented the winter roses in a very public fashion, so if he had feelings for Lyanna, he might not have been bothering to hide them in the march to the Trident. 

[PrettyPig]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

This is a possibility that occurred to me too.  However, I think in such a scenario, given what appears to be his deep love for Rhaegar, he would have wanted to protect Rhaegar's son immediately, to improve Aegon's odds of winning the Throne...

That implies he would have known Aegon's whereabouts...but consider this:

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ACOK 49 - Tyrion
Hallyne fled so quickly that he almost bowled over Ser Jacelyn - no, Lord Jacelyn, he must remember that. Ironhand was mercifully direct, as ever. He'd returned from Rosby to deliver a fresh levy of spearmen recruited from Lord Gyles's estates and resume his command of the City Watch. "How does my nephew fare?" Tyrion asked when they were done discussing the city's defenses.

"Prince Tommen is hale and happy, my lord. He has adopted a fawn some of my men brought home from a hunt. He had one once before, he says, but Joffrey skinned her for a jerkin. He asks about his mother sometimes, and often begins letters to the Princess Myrcella, though he never seems to finish any. His brother, however, he does not seem to miss at all."

"You have made suitable arrangements for him, should the battle be lost?"

"My men have their instructions."

"Which are?"

"You commanded me to tell no one, my lord."

That made him smile. "I'm pleased you remember." Should King's Landing fall, he might well be taken alive. Better if he did not know where Joffrey's heir might be found.

 

At the time of this passage, Tyrion is still Hand of the King, not yet disgraced and removed from his position after his success during the Battle of the Blackwater, the last major battle in the Wot5K.

The Hand commanded that the "spare" heir be relocated to a place of safety in the company of a handful of trusted men, and not even the Hand himself was to know the location of that place.

 

What other Hand of the King do we know that also became disgraced and removed from his position after his failure in the first major battle of Robert's Rebellion?  

 

ETA:   @LynnS, you might like the italicized part of that quote above.  A fawn for the spare heir, to replace the one that the -then- Crown Prince captured and killed.

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

I'm mainly arguing here for the premise that GRRM went about his major mysteries in a planned and careful fashion... totally unlike, for instance, the show-runners of the TV show Lost.  That there was a plan and he stuck to it.  And that it was a very good plan.

Oh, I see.  I've never disputed that he has a plan -- we're just not privy to the solution.  GRRM is a chess aficionado, after all.  You don't get to be good at chess by improvising on the fly instead of thinking several moves ahead.  Think of Robert Frost's 'crossroads' as GRRM's 'patternmaker's maze' -- it's not the poet/author who is standing at the crossroads or lost in the maze; it's us the readers!

My approach to the text is via interpreting the symbolism, as I've told you before.  Symbolically, Rhaegar was only the messenger, with the blue wreath as the message, hiding the thorns beneath.  Find the thorny party (thorns like claws drawing Ned's blood) -- and you'll find who 'sent' and/or 'set up' Rhaegar!

[Melifeather]

35 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Oh, I see.  I've never disputed that he has a plan -- we're just not privy to the solution.  GRRM is a chess aficionado, after all.  You don't get to be good at chess by improvising on the fly instead of thinking several moves ahead.  Think of Robert Frost's 'crossroads' as GRRM's 'patternmaker's maze' -- it's not the poet/author who is standing at the crossroads or lost in the maze; it's us the readers!

My approach to the text is via interpreting the symbolism, as I've told you before.  Symbolically, Rhaegar was only the messenger, with the blue wreath as the message, hiding the thorns beneath.  Find the thorny party (thorns like claws drawing Ned's blood) -- and you'll find who 'sent' and/or 'set up' Rhaegar!

I like the interpretation that only Ned dreams the roses were blue...a symbolic understanding that this is what marked or led to Lyanna's death. I didn't realize that you understood, as I do, that the thorns hiding beneath are symbolic of the lion's claws, or rather Tywin Lannister's mechanisms that remained hidden behind the schemes. Or am I misunderstanding you? IMO it explains Ned's deep distrust of the Lannister's moreso than simply finding Jaime on the Iron Throne. At that moment he already understood that everything had been manipulated by Tywin to rid Aerys, and I believe he also knew that this was why Lyanna was killed. She was simply a tool to spark a rebellion into action. 

[ravenous reader]

41 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I like the interpretation that only Ned dreams the roses were blue...a symbolic understanding that this is what marked or led to Lyanna's death. I didn't realize that you understood, as I do, that the thorns hiding beneath are symbolic of the lion's claws, or rather Tywin Lannister's mechanisms that remained hidden behind the schemes. Or am I misunderstanding you? IMO it explains Ned's deep distrust of the Lannister's moreso than simply finding Jaime on the Iron Throne. At that moment he already understood that everything had been manipulated by Tywin to rid Aerys, and I believe he also knew that this was why Lyanna was killed. She was simply a tool to spark a rebellion into action. 

I don't know if the 'hidden player' is necessarily Tywin -- though could be!   Consider, for example, that Aerys's uncut fingernails are also described as claws of some beast, with which he's been known to savage women.  There could be many possible interpretations.

Loosely, I'm referring to a repeated pattern we keep finding of what I've termed the trio of 'trickster' (i.e. hidden player), 'dupe' (the one who is duped by the trickster, e.g. Brandon as 'gallant fool'), and the 'prize' (the goal of the trickery, Robert Frost's 'passionate preference' which may be a coveted woman, or other ambition such as a crown, or even a skinchanging host, etc.).

So, with reference to the wreath of blue roses, it's significant that the thorns are 'hidden beneath' the blooms.  Similarly, in the Neck, flowers bloom on stagnant ponds, which in reality are not really that stagnant, considering the sharp lizard-lion teeth lurking beneath the blooms, just waiting for the unwary to reach out and pick one.  

I even find this pattern in my pet project of late, my allegorical reading of the Prologue, in which with close reading we can see that Will plays the role of the hidden player, hidden up the sentinel, 'lost among the needles', who despite his apparent passivity and silence, also more proactively sent the 'whispered prayer to the nameless gods of the woods,' which I've argued summoned those very demons invoked, namely the Others, who appear suspiciously close upon the heels of his prayer, almost as if on cue.  

The telltale sign that the Will-figure is culpable despite his apparent lack of involvement is the allusion to his 'red-handedness', his being a hunter, a poacher on the eagle's lands, and how, to rub it in, his face and hands additionally become smeared in the 'sticky sap' of his brother's blood, both figuratively (via the tree sap) and then literally at the end when the moleskin gloves claim their due, in revenge. So, the analogy to Rhaegar as messenger bearing the tainted frosty pale blue wreath would be the Others (their swords are even frosty with a pale blue ghost light playing on the edge of the blade).  The Others are just the proxy assassins manoeuvred into place by the 'killing word' of another -- so they like Rhaegar are essentially the dupes.  The prize is represented by the Lyanna figure here, Waymar, who becomes literally married to the Others in the symbolic 'crowning'  (his sable coat and lightning-transformed, magicked sword which Will comes to claim at the end, being symbolic of kingship).  

By the way, Waymar is killed by an exploding storm or 'rain of needles' -- that's like thorns, and represent collectively the 'long claw' reaching out to grab him of his brother, Will.  The murder is described as 'cold butchery,' not only for the means of death via 'the cold,' but because the one ultimately responsible -- the true meaning of 'the cold god/s' -- stands to the side, in the shadows, watching.

[PrettyPig]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I do agree that the gore spattered dress is suggestive of child-birth

I'd even go so far as to suggest that when Theon dreams of Lyanna in a white dress; that she is actually wearing a wedding dress

Wanted to circle back to this also.  We're viewing the white dress through our modern 20th-21st century eyes here, relating it to weddings.   However, we need to think of it in its original construct, which was a symbol of virginal purity in general.   We don't see white wedding dresses in ASOIAF, but we do see white garb elsewhere in Westeros...the robes of septas - symbolizing their purity and perhaps even their 'marriage' to the Faith.    Interestingly enough, we also see white robes worn in the Ghiscari order of the Graces - Dany notes that some of the young girls in her service wear white; these girls are of noble birth and have not reached the age to serve in the pleasure houses.

Now, to tie this in to what I was getting at in my previous post, let's bring in JonCon.    I'm suggesting that JonCon acted - whether independently or by Rhaegar's request, I don't know - to get baby Aegon out of harm's way by arranging to have him smuggled out of the city to an undisclosed location. ("Far away").     Therefore, when "Aegon" resurfaces 5 years later despite having had his skull caved in by the Mountain, JonCon meets this with little to no skepticism because it fits the actions that he took during the war to ensure the safety of Rhaegar's son.

On to Varys.    It's entirely possible that, in this scenario, JonCon enlisted the help of the Spider - when the fall of KL was imminent, Varys reenacted the role of Larys Strong during the Dance, and got Aegon out of the city via the Pisswater Prince switcheroo.     Varys' involvement from the start would certainly explain JonCon's acceptance of a now 6ish year old Aegon presented to him by Varys and Illyrio.

However, there's also the chance that JonCon himself is a victim of the Varys long con.  If JonCon did indeed make arrangements to get Aegon to safety in the company of trusted men,   I find it hard to believe that Varys would not have gotten wind of it.  He may not have taken action to stop it, but no doubt he would have been aware...and then used this knowledge to his advantage at a later date - such as when he and Illyrio began cooking up a scheme to retake the Iron Throne.

Before continuing, I'll insert this quote from Varys concerning baby Barra, King Bob's bastard daughter with the teenage prostitute, who was later murdered by Lannister henchmen:

Quote

Varys: "I confess, I never dreamed the babe would be at risk. A base born girl, less then a year old, with a whore for a mother, what threat could she pose?"

I think this dovetails well with the Pisswater Prince story re: disguising a royal baby by placing it with a nondescript character that flies under the radar, but if I consider it in the terms of echoes and inversions, my mind goes back to that white dress so reminiscent of a maiden's gown and septa's robes.   That takes me to dark-haired, handsome Septa Lemore, hanging out in HER white robes on the boat with JonCon, and I wonder why she would be there at all, why it's important that a mystery septa be a part of this crew in the first place...and most importantly, why JonCon would have accepted her presence being that she stands out like a sore white thumb.

And this leads me to my point:  What's the inverse of a teenage whore?    If the whore is soiled and dirty and gives herself to every man that can pay, her opposite would be a young maiden, virginal and clean, who gives herself to no man at all.    A teenage girl, perhaps a dark-haired one with a "wild beauty" dressed in the simple white garb of a septa-in-training.     A young and innocent white fawn, given to the second in line to the throne.

A man sees what he expects to see.   I think that on that poleboat, we are seeing the "Varys Version" of JonCon's original plan for Aegon.    JonCon is seeing it too - and he believes it's legit.   *I* am not so sure.

[LynnS]

36 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Wanted to circle back to this also.  We're viewing the white dress through our modern 20th-21st century eyes here, relating it to weddings.

I agree that a white dress is used to denote purity and innocence, something that Cersei uses for affect.  Although there is this:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

The hearth was caked with cold black ash, the room unheated but for candles. Every time a door opened their flames would sway and shiver. The bride was shivering too. They had dressed her in white lambswool trimmed with lace. Her sleeves and bodice were sewn with freshwater pearls, and on her feet were white doeskin slippers—pretty, but not warm. Her face was pale, bloodless.

 

A face carved of ice, Theon Greyjoy thought as he draped a fur-trimmed cloak about her shoulders. A corpse buried in the snow. "My lady. It is time." Beyond the door, the music called them, lute and pipes and drum.

 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 

My approach to the text is via interpreting the symbolism, as I've told you before.  Symbolically, Rhaegar was only the messenger, with the blue wreath as the message, hiding the thorns beneath.  Find the thorny party (thorns like claws drawing Ned's blood) -- and you'll find who 'sent' and/or 'set up' Rhaegar!

In the dawn light, the army of Lord Tywin Lannister unfolded like an iron rose, thorns gleaming. - A Game of Thrones - Tyrion VIII

Symbolically, the iron rose, thorns gleaming is representative of the iron throne with it's hidden barbs. 
 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VI

Pycelle's breathing was rapid and shallow. "All I did, I did for House Lannister." A sheen of sweat covered the broad dome of the old man's brow, and wisps of white hair clung to his wrinkled skin. "Always . . . for years . . . your lord father, ask him, I was ever his true servant . . . 'twas I who bid Aerys open his gates . . ."

"For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king . . . I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly . . ."

"How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me . . . King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?" He knew where it ended.

The axe scratched at the apple of Pycelle's throat and stroked the soft wobbly skin under his jaw, scraping away the last hairs. "You . . . were not here," he gasped when the blade moved upward to his cheeks. "Robert . . . his wounds . . . if you had seen them, smelled them, you would have no doubt . . ."

 

 

 

[Black Crow]

24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I agree that a white dress is used to denote purity and innocence, something that Cersei uses for affect.  Although there is this:

A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

 

The hearth was caked with cold black ash, the room unheated but for candles. Every time a door opened their flames would sway and shiver. The bride was shivering too. They had dressed her in white lambswool trimmed with lace. Her sleeves and bodice were sewn with freshwater pearls, and on her feet were white doeskin slippers—pretty, but not warm. Her face was pale, bloodless.

 

Perfectly true, but in this case she was wearing a Stark livery. You could argue of course that the same would apply to any marriage of Lyanna, but the point is that neither example would invalidate the symbolic interpretation - although conversely we do have to bear in mind the convention that a bride [unless a widow] was expected to be pure and virginal.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I like the interpretation that only Ned dreams the roses were blue...a symbolic understanding that this is what marked or led to Lyanna's death. 

Actually, while that is clearly the intent of the storm of rose petals, blue as the eyes of death, I rather feel that the initial consternation on the presentation of the wreath was not concerned with Lyanna herself, who was in no personal danger at that point, but rather the doom of House Stark.

[LynnS]

20 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Perfectly true, but in this case she was wearing a Stark livery. You could argue of course that the same would apply to any marriage of Lyanna, but the point is that neither example would invalidate the symbolic interpretation - although conversely we do have to bear in mind the convention that a bride [unless a widow] was expected to be pure and virginal.

Yes, but it is a concrete example even if it is Stark livery and because it is Stark livery.  You could also say that Lyanna was spattered with the blood that ensued in her name; but was innocent or blameless of the charge.  That she was stained or unclean...

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."