Bakker XLIX - From Bashrags to Riches (No TUC Spoilers!)

[Kalbear]

@redeagl, be wary of mistaking what you're desperately wanting for what should happen.

Especially since Bakker said that he'd be super satisfied by walking away from the series and moving on after TUC. 

@Werthead, you wrote this in the history of Earwa:

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To avoid this fate the Inchoroi had to rob the Gods of their belief, the thing that gave them substance, and the only way to do this was to destroy the source of that belief: the people of the world.

Do you have a citation for this? That's a bit of metaphysics that I wasn't aware of; as far as I knew the gods had very little to do with damnation itself. 

[Werthead]

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 do we have any updated sales figures on TGO or Bakker in general? 

 

Nope.

 

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Do you have a citation for this? That's a bit of metaphysics that I wasn't aware of; as far as I knew the gods had very little to do with damnation itself. 

 

Argh, that was a bit that should have been scrubbed after we had the whole debate about this a year or so back.

[Kalbear]

19 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Argh, that was a bit that should have been scrubbed after we had the whole debate about this a year or so back.

Don't worry, it'll just be used as proof of that specific bit of plot FOR ALL OF ETERNITY by people no big deal

[Hello World]

How do you know he doesn't have a deal for the next series?

[Kalbear]

Just now, Hello World said:

How do you know he doesn't have a deal for the next series?

I don't; though one has not been announced. I merely assume that as one has not been announced it isn't done. 

I know that there were some unhappy people with Overlook in the past, too, and I suspect that they're trying to redo some of the deal with a publisher that possibly cares more and/or has more clout in the US and other places, but that's iffy as they wouldn't have the ability to republish the other books (and that would be a big part of a deal). So they have to negotate with Overlook/Orbit for THAT, and that's a hassle, and...yadda yadda.

It's a complicated bit of work.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

23 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Don't worry, it'll just be used as proof of that specific bit of plot FOR ALL OF ETERNITY by people no big deal

You know, Madness linked a old three-seas post where indeed Bakker said that mens belief can effect things (Gods, or something else, it wasn't morality though.). Anyhow, I thought it totally contradicted the answer he gave me on belief. Which was, the beliefs of men mean nothing.

[Darth Richard II]

Last time it was brought up Bakker mentioned he didn't have any contracts for more books, but it was a while ago.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

5 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Last time it was brought up Bakker mentioned he didn't have any contracts for more books, but it was a while ago.

And, what sad as a Bakker fan, is he does little to nothing to get his name and books out there. I guess the whole Bakker vs Woman and the like turned him off the internet. Or, he isn't very savvy as far as promotion goes. But, it really pisses me off to hear that he complains about more books not being sold, while he is unwilling to put forth the effort to sell more books. There's gotta be something in his books about that kind of mindset...

[Kalbear]

Just now, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

You know, Madness linked a old three-seas post where indeed Bakker said that mens belief can effect things (Gods, or something else, it wasn't morality though.). Anyhow, I thought it totally contradicted the answer he gave me on belief. Which was, the beliefs of men mean nothing.

Here's how I always figured it, based on some of the answers about Whale Mothers and the like.

Earwa is maximally objective, and is the least prone to the subjective whims of its observers. That does not mean that it is perfectly objective. It is simply the most objective, the most fixed by the view of the God. 

Now, what can and can't change? That's where the confusion lies, I think. What I think can not change via belief:

• The process of soul moving. This is part of the entire universe, and is as immutable as gravity. Souls move to the Outside and back, and that can be blocked, but it is like entropy otherwise. You can't change souls wanting to move just by thinking they go elsewhere (otherwise nonmen, zeum and the like would have stopped it)
• The process of damnation. Damnation happens when the actions of a soul are judged, and that judging occurs from the Eye of God. You can make it so that the God cannot see any more, but you can't make it stop by simply believing (otherwise different people would be damned for different reasons based on their belief, and that doesn't happen)
• The actual acts which damn. As far as we can tell, nothing changes from culture to culture. Belief doesn't change people's value of damnation. Damnation happens for causing others to suffer and be selfish (lies, murder, rape) or for sinning against the true vision of God (sorcery). Changing belief doesn't make things change damnation at all. 

What I think can change:

• Manifestations of god power. If you act in a way that expresses a god's view, or if a god gets enough followers, they can manifest and do things in the world. This again doesn't change damnation, it changes what has happened in the world.
• Belief in the way things should be. You can't change damnation, but, say, if you believe strongly that genetics should work to make women less and become broodmares, you can affect that change in the world (provided it doesn't go against the belief system of the world). Again, it changes what has happened in the world.
• Belief in the objective viewpoint. Mimara changes a Topoi to not be one with the chorae (my interpretation) by her insisting that the objective system is the system, through the Eye. This again changes what has happened in the world. 

So through belief, or will, or view you can change things in Earwa. It's hard, but it works kind of like it does in the Outside as well. What you can't do is change the mechanics of the universe. 

[Darth Richard II]

7 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

And, what sad as a Bakker fan, is he does little to nothing to get his name and books out there. I guess the whole Bakker vs Woman and the like turned him off the internet. Or, he isn't very savvy as far as promotion goes. But, it really pisses me off to hear that he complains about more books not being sold, while he is unwilling to put forth the effort to sell more books. There's gotta be something in his books about that kind of mindset...

Dude needs a publicist, for sure.

[Werthead]

I updated the PDF with feedback from here and the SA forum. It's now the final final version (unless Scott spots something).

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I don't; though one has not been announced. I merely assume that as one has not been announced it isn't done. 

I know that there were some unhappy people with Overlook in the past, too, and I suspect that they're trying to redo some of the deal with a publisher that possibly cares more and/or has more clout in the US and other places, but that's iffy as they wouldn't have the ability to republish the other books (and that would be a big part of a deal). So they have to negotate with Overlook/Orbit for THAT, and that's a hassle, and...yadda yadda.

It's a complicated bit of work.

 

As far as I can tell, this is how the fortunes of the series have gone:

Prince of Nothing did very, very well by Overlook's standards and pretty decently by Orbit's standards (Orbit's standards are very much higher, being a far bigger publisher). The original trilogy got a lot of critical acclaim and the sales were good. There was no negative online buzz. The strong sales were said to be down to the rapid publishing of the entire trilogy and good word of mouth.

The Aspect-Emperor series has not done nearly as well, that's pretty obvious. The critical acclaim has been much more muted, the online buzz has been far lower and the momentum of the series has been stalled by the delays. Bakker's lack of PR has definitely hurt the cause, since online buzz and marketing is far more important now than it was when PoN came out. I'd say that all the "controversy" was really mostly an internet flash-in-the-pan that hasn't resonated further, but it did seem to coincide with previously strong supporters of Bakker deciding not to read further in the series for whatever reason, or if they did not to make much noise about it. Orbit, in particular, seem to be fairly non-committal on the last two books in the series despite previously giving up a lot of marketing and publicity. For example, they recruited me to write blog posts and host an interview with Scott when The White Luck Warrior came out and did pretty much nothing for The Great Ordeal.

Looking at sales, there doesn't seem to be a problem with grimdark fiction per se: Abercrombie sells very well and Mark Lawrence's sales have gone through the roof, but neither author is as psychologically dark as Bakker, and both are a lot less graphic. That might be another stumbling block, alongside their different approaches to marketing (Abercrombie does a bit, Lawrence does a lot and Bakker not much at all).

However, there has been a bit more of a sea-change recently. There's more video reviews out there of the series on YouTube and there's been at least a couple of female bloggers who've picked the series up and reviewed it well. The whole "controversy" thing seems to be a few years in the past now and newer readers and bloggers are picking up the series and giving it a fairer try. In addition, the completion of The Aspect-Emperor should increase sales for people who only read series when they are done (an increasingly large number of readers these days).

I suspect, like Erikson, the series will have a long tail and build up sales steadily over a long period of time if kept in print and, if possible, the US paperback reprints are picked up by another publisher. Bakker is certainly far more approachable than Erikson, but, crucially, has a much slower output.

[Darth Richard II]

*puts on angry fanboy hat*

I find Erikson a thousand times more approachable than Bakker.

 

*takes off hat*

[Drorian]

here in Italy Erikson's works have seen multiple reprints (sadly), Bakker has yet to get translated and I can't share this incredible series with my friends cause they don't read english books.

Does anyone know if and when is the unholy consult audiobook going to be released? is it the final work of the saga? think i read somewhere they were goin to be three trilogies...

[Ghjhero]

Does anyone know what Barnes and Noble will be selling the book for in stores? I thought about preordering it , but the cost comes to around $25 once shipping and handling is tacked on. I'm hoping it'll be cheaper to buy it in person. 

[Darth Richard II]

Eh, I imagone whatever MSRP is?

[lokisnow]

I imagine that the next book will come when it comes. Bakker has designed his writing process to be autonomic so that means he has routinized brain subsystems such that his body nonconsciously winds up in the correct location with the correct equipment and liquid drugs to facilitate the triggering of the endorphins from the creative process.  The non sologdin among us call this process the mysterious brain function known as habit. (Habit being one of the great delusions that disproves free will)

Anti-Nietzsche in its own way, instead of will-to-power it is lack-of-will-to-power. Somehow Bakker has short circuited his brain so that the laziness the human brain prefers is manifested by his writing habit.

this probably means that lack-of-will is the holy key to everything and esmenet is going to become no god and/or the savior of the world and esmenet is the anasurimbor returning at the end of the world.  Narrow hips so celmomas assumed she was a dude.  

Thus her much maligned passivity is actually the key to conquering everything and everyone was wildly out of bounds to criticize her on the very terms of her success.

 But Bakker being Bakker the Freudian LACK in the lack-of-will-to-power is significant in some classically Bakker sexual awfulness we are bound to endure at some point in the next book. Esmenet probably has to be fucked by sranc, or kelmomas... or proyas.

Thus spake casidas 

[Callan S.]

Guessing author psychology!? I'm so there!!

It's more like playing D&D and figuring how to make every single fucking scene about your special snowflake character by undermining anyone else's choices with their character, because you understand protagonism, but you just can't share! Thaaaat's Kellhus!

Well, hopefully with some self reflection over the thirty years. >:)

Or if I want to really go psyche, to escape a fairly rough/abusive homelife a soul went into fantasy writing. But since he used the fantasy to cut and stab critically at fucking everything as a backlash against that roughness, it didn't end up being pure escapism and instead stabbed into itself until it came right out the other side again as grimdark literature! Kind of like Mimara seeing through the chorae, to something else.

* Does it need to be said that 'I'm so there' is kind of a self satire in such an attempt? A note that it's just a guess, as we're all left guessing.

 

[Ghjhero]

Regardless of whether (or when) the third series is published it sounds like tUC will wrap up the major questions to a sufficient extent where most readers should be satisfied so I am not going to worry about the existence of a third series just yet. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

2 minutes ago, Ghjhero said:

Regardless of whether (or when) the third series is published it sounds like tUC will wrap up the major questions to a sufficient extent where most readers should be satisfied so I am not going to worry about the existence of a third series just yet. 

From Bakker's own mouth, he's already started the 3rd series. So it's in existence. No need to question it. 

However, I am not going to get worked up over it, either. It'll either happen or it won't. I think many have pointed to a few good reasons it could be delayed for awhile. 

[Kalbear]

3 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

From Bakker's own mouth, he's already started the 3rd series. So it's in existence. No need to question it. 

Where's Winds of Winter again?