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Bakker XLIX - From Bashrags to Riches (No TUC Spoilers!)


.H.

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1 hour ago, akh said:

Ive got no useful input, but it looks good.

Will you (have to) update it after TUC release?

A few months after it and certainly before TSTCBN, yeah, but it won't require too much of an adjustment.

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My nits:

Beginning:

  • Open with the map of Earwa instead of Kellhus; that piece of art isn't the best, and it implies that Kellhus is the entire history thematically. 
  • The "Inchoroi came from the void" art piece feels weirdly centered compared to the rest of the doc. (also, it doesn't seem to fit here, as most of the rest of the next piece is centered on the Nonmen - I'd swap this with the pic of Cujara Cinmoi in the piece). 

Nonmen:

  • "But as the Halaroi spread in number, breeding at a far faster rate than the slow-burning Cûnuroi, they saw the wisdom in subduing them." - odd structure of sentence here; Halaroi should match with 'they' but matches with 'them'.
  • "In the Nihrimsûli tradition, Imimorûl discovered his son Tsonos and daughter Olissis engaged in a passionate relationship and was angered." -the tradition is to discover their son and daughter? Tradition is a correct word but seems ambiguous here.
  • It is 'swath' not 'swathe' for the way you're using it.
  • "The Inchoroi had somehow grafted faces into their mouths, through which they could now speak a civilised tongue." strike that, reverse it. :)

Age of man:

  • Odd to not mention here that the Inchoroi created the Tusk - and gave the men chorae. As well as adding the fake bit about the nonmen. 
  • Might also want to mention the part where some mansions fought - but others simply opened their doors and bared their necks. 
  • "Nonman Tutelage ended with a crime most foul, committed by the Siqû Jiricet against Anasûrimbor Omindalea," - this seems unnecessarily obtuse. Since it's referred to in the ttext repeatedly as the rape of Omindalea, probably should use that same terminology.
  • "finishing the job the Inchoroi had begun thousands of years earlier:destroying the world" - they're not really wanting to destroy the world, just kill the souled people. They want to live on it, after all. 
  • "Anasûrimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I died in 1556 at the age of 178, the result of Nonman blood in his veins. " he died because he had nonman blood?
  • "In 1896 Anjecis," - it's Ajencis (applies everywhere)

Apocalypse:

  • Might as well assert positively that Nau-Cayuti is Seswatha's, given its importance
  • "again drove them back to the Ark itself. Anasûrimbor Celmomas II began the Second Investiture in the fall of that year." - I'd also use the 'but it became clear that the Consult was just playing for time" phrase here too.
  • Initiation but not Nau-Cayuti? Oh, you're so coy. :)
  • I love the shade about the No-God choosing to take the field and the 'mandate commentators'. Hehe. 
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Beginning:

  • Open with the map of Earwa instead of Kellhus; that piece of art isn't the best, and it implies that Kellhus is the entire history thematically. 
  • The "Inchoroi came from the void" art piece feels weirdly centered compared to the rest of the doc. (also, it doesn't seem to fit here, as most of the rest of the next piece is centered on the Nonmen - I'd swap this with the pic of Cujara Cinmoi in the piece). 

 

 

That was the original plan, but the map I wanted to use is far too high-res (the text disappears and becomes illegible. The other ones aren't really good enough quality to stand as the frontispiece.

I'm wondering if the thing is mis-named. The principle goal of the document is to tell the story leading up to the books, which do centre on Kellhus and of course the Celmomian Prophecy, so having him as the central image I think is appropriate but I can see other arguments.

The Inchoroi bit I think is critically important because of the sheer number of people - fans but not superfans who live on the forums - who don't quite get what the story is about. This sums it concisely right up in the reader's face.

I agree on the centering thing. It was looking weird on Word so I changed the margins which seems to have got it out of synch with the rest of the doc.

 

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  • It is 'swath' not 'swathe' for the way you're using it.

In True English 'swathe' is in fact correct, but since this is a work of colonials I will defer to the localised spelling ;) 

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    "The Inchoroi had somehow grafted faces into their mouths, through which they could now speak a civilised tongue." strike that, reverse it. :)

     

Okay, but it doesn't seem to make much odds to me. Are we thinking that the Inchoroi graft-faces are human rather than Nonman? I suspect the Inchoroi using Nonmen faces/heads would seriously piss the Nonmen off, but they don't seem that bothered about it, and humans would be easier to find. Or the Inchoroi didn't actually use real faces and created their own?

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Age of man:

  • Odd to not mention here that the Inchoroi created the Tusk - and gave the men chorae. As well as adding the fake bit about the nonmen. 
  • Might also want to mention the part where some mansions fought - but others simply opened their doors and bared their necks. 
  • "Nonman Tutelage ended with a crime most foul, committed by the Siqû Jiricet against Anasûrimbor Omindalea," - this seems unnecessarily obtuse. Since it's referred to in the ttext repeatedly as the rape of Omindalea, probably should use that same terminology.
  • "finishing the job the Inchoroi had begun thousands of years earlier:destroying the world" - they're not really wanting to destroy the world, just kill the souled people. They want to live on it, after all. 
  • "Anasûrimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I died in 1556 at the age of 178, the result of Nonman blood in his veins. " he died because he had nonman blood?
  • "In 1896 Anjecis," - it's Ajencis (applies everywhere)

 

  •  

I inferred the Tusk was created by the Inchoroi in the "strangers out of the west" line, but that may be obtuse. Also, the former section did indicate the Inchoroi had been destroyed, reflecting the Nonman belief, rather than the reality of the situation. I'll update that section. I mention the Chorae as being gifted to the Tribes by the creators of the Tusk, but I'll reinforce that bit as well.

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Apocalypse:

  • Might as well assert positively that Nau-Cayuti is Seswatha's, given its importance
  • "again drove them back to the Ark itself. Anasûrimbor Celmomas II began the Second Investiture in the fall of that year." - I'd also use the 'but it became clear that the Consult was just playing for time" phrase here too.
  • Initiation but not Nau-Cayuti? Oh, you're so coy. :)
  • I love the shade about the No-God choosing to take the field and the 'mandate commentators'. Hehe. 


 

For Nau-Cayuti being eaten by the Carapace, I do assert it more in the section on the books themselves. This revelation is important to Achamian, so it seemed better to reveal it there rather than in-situ.

22 minutes ago, Ghjhero said:

This is great work and I can't wait to read it, but do anyone else think this could undermine the cause for Bakker to write his version of The Silmarillion?

Nope. Bakker has got an absolute ton of notes and information on the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars, the ancient history of the Nonmen and the history of men in Eanna (including a much more detailed account of the Shamen-Prophet confrontation), as well as lots more stuff, far more than what I've written here.

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Okay, but it doesn't seem to make much odds to me. Are we thinking that the Inchoroi graft-faces are human rather than Nonman? I suspect the Inchoroi using Nonmen faces/heads would seriously piss the Nonmen off, but they don't seem that bothered about it, and humans would be easier to find. Or the Inchoroi didn't actually use real faces and created their own?

I just don't get the 'faces grafted ONTO the mouths". So they had mouths but not faces, and they then put  the faces on the mouths? 

My recollection was that they didn't have mouths but did have  recognizable faces of some sort, and then created mouths to speak later. I didn't think they had mouths but not faces (I can't even) and then put faces into those mouths like some weird xenomorph thingy. 

Also, swathe specifically refers to cloth and is more properly a verb; swath is a noun and refers to fields of things. Bloody nobs. :P

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30 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I just don't get the 'faces grafted ONTO the mouths". So they had mouths but not faces, and they then put  the faces on the mouths? 

My recollection was that they didn't have mouths but did have  recognizable faces of some sort, and then created mouths to speak later. I didn't think they had mouths but not faces (I can't even) and then put faces into those mouths like some weird xenomorph thingy. 

I believe Scott has indicated that Jason's conception of the Inchoroi before and after the head graft is at least in the right ballpark, although your idea also makes sense. But I think the description makes it clear (ish) that the Inchoroi have a face with a jaw and the humanoid face is then within that jaw.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Werthead said:

The Inchoroi bit I think is critically important because of the sheer number of people - fans but not superfans who live on the forums - who don't quite get what the story is about. This sums it concisely right up in the reader's face.   

Nope. Bakker has got an absolute ton of notes and information on the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars, the ancient history of the Nonmen and the history of men in Eanna (including a much more detailed account of the Shamen-Prophet confrontation), as well as lots more stuff, far more than what I've written here.

I feel that I fall into this description. I always felt that the story was about Kellhus and his journey to confront the Inchoroi and whatever revelations that might be revealed. Are you saying there's more to that that I'm missing?

Awesome, good to hear! I look forward to reading both your and Bakker's works!

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1 hour ago, Hello World said:

There is a preview of the first two chapters of TUC here. And a table of contents in the beginning that mentions the locations of the chapters as per usual.

Wow! Just reading the chapter titles has me excited! 

Sorry for the double post, didn't check the link before the first post. 

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So people take it the greater skull is the natural head and the human style face in the mouth is grafted?

I'd taken it that the greater skull is a biological crash helmet, grafted on to avoid dying from silly things, like the way Ciogli dies. Indeed, even if the skull were the Inchoroi's natural skull, I'd expect a second protective skull stuck onto that.

I'd think more the skull is merely protective and previously they had their original faces in the jaws, then they swapped those out for ones that could lie to the locals better (since they just hissed or made slithering sounds before)

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Two chapters with the same title in a row? A mistake or there is some reason for it?

 

I don't think it's a spoiler. Bakker's chapter scheme is like Martin's, except he uses the location rather than the person's name. That's a bit like if Martin decided to have two Arya chapters one after the other, which would be unusual but might be justifiable. In this case it's more because the chapters, as said, above, take place in an area where two characters have converged. Imagine Martin using the same scheme during the Red Wedding, he'd have several chapters called "The Twins" in rapid succession as he alternated between Arya and Cat.

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I suspect jokes and lightheartedness will be in short supply in this novel

 

You'd be surprised. I think I agree that this is actually Bakker's funniest book to date (not this is saying much).

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