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Smaug vs. Balrog - Who would win?


Seiche

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The article mentions that dragons were engines of war in Tolkien’s early writings. Where can I read up on that? Is that in History of Middle-Earth somewhere?

(I ask because of the dragons in R Scott Bakker’s Eärwa universe, which I assume are engines of war.)

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This battle depends on if you're dealing with an indoor or outdoor fight. Balrogs can't fly, so Smaug would have the advantage there. Indoors, I'd fancy the Balrog - one would imagine it's immune to dragonfire, and it does have (assumed) opposable thumbs and a whip.  

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10 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

The article mentions that dragons were engines of war in Tolkien’s early writings. Where can I read up on that? Is that in History of Middle-Earth somewhere?

The original Fall of Gondolin from 1916 - the only full version of the story Tolkien ever wrote - is contained in The Book of Lost Tales Volume II, and has various flavours of dragon. Including mechanical dragons that Orcs climb inside (remind you of anything?). So yes, they were literal engines of war.

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If we're going with movie versions, Smaug from the Hobbit and The Balrog from LoTR, I'd say it would have gone to Smaug.

If we're going by book version.. I'd say Smaug as well. He was one of the top tier dragons in Middle Earth and my impression is that they were "ranked" a little higher than Balrogs, in the updated mythology of Middle -Earth ( so not referring to old mythology stuff like early Lay of Leithian, Fall of Gondolin verse).

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I loved the article, thank you. But I do have one question: If Smaug´s mind control is so strong as to be the decisive factor against the balrog, how come the dragon did not exert mind control over the dwarves in the long fight where they bathed him in gold and drove him out of the lonely mountain?

 As far as  I remember from the movie, there where plenty of scenes with eye contact between Smaug and the dwarves. 

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On 5/11/2017 at 2:18 PM, larrytheimp said:

WUTTEAT.

Balrog is to Ciphrang as Smaug is to Wutteat, yes?   Ciphrang despawn after taking a considerable beating.  Perhaps Balrog do as well? Turning into Maia-vapor?  Wutteat could undoubtedly take any Ciphrang a sorcerer is capable of summoning.  This line of thinking has made me reverse my initial thought that the Balrog would defeat Smaug.

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3 minutes ago, Damned with the Wind said:

Balrog is to Ciphrang as Smaug is to Wutteat, yes?   Ciphrang despawn after taking a considerable beating.  Perhaps Balrog do as well? Turning into Maia-vapor?  Wutteat could undoubtedly take any Ciphrang a sorcerer is capable of summoning.  This line of thinking has made me reverse my initial thought that the Balrog would defeat Smaug.

The Balrog is significantly bigger than the Ciphrang.  I pictured Ciphrang as more gorilla sized. 

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2 hours ago, saymyname said:

I loved the article, thank you. But I do have one question: If Smaug´s mind control is so strong as to be the decisive factor against the balrog, how come the dragon did not exert mind control over the dwarves in the long fight where they bathed him in gold and drove him out of the lonely mountain?

 As far as  I remember from the movie, there where plenty of scenes with eye contact between Smaug and the dwarves. 

Yeah uh...that series of films was not, erm, faithful.

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20 hours ago, Calibandar said:

If we're going with movie versions, Smaug from the Hobbit and The Balrog from LoTR, I'd say it would have gone to Smaug.

If we're going by book version.. I'd say Smaug as well. He was one of the top tier dragons in Middle Earth and my impression is that they were "ranked" a little higher than Balrogs, in the updated mythology of Middle -Earth ( so not referring to old mythology stuff like early Lay of Leithian, Fall of Gondolin verse).

"My amor is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!".

Ok maybe that is just boasting, but if we are talking book version my gold would be on Smaug. But I could be wrong, it has been a long time since I read "The Hobbit". As it has already (;)) been pointed out there is a chasm (like the one in Moria) between the paper and the screen version. 

Movie versions: But how would Smaug win? Through fire, teeth and claws or mind control? 

Movies or book:  I think we also need to factor in: 

  1.  The battle ground. Is there any gold nearby when the two clash?
  2. Ruthlessness. Smaug himself says: "I kill were I will, and none dare resist!" In the movie on the other hand, the Balrog seems more like the beast. 
  3. Intelligence?  

It could also be that we can learn something from Gandalf´s actions. He only wants to burglarize Smaug, but goes into mortal combat with the Balrog. 

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43 minutes ago, saymyname said:

 

It could also be that we can learn something from Gandalf´s actions. He only wants to burglarize Smaug, but goes into mortal combat with the Balrog. 

To be fair, he rather had to go into mortal combat with the Balrog. He'd happily have avoided it if he could.

A real issue is that Balrogs became more powerful the more Tolkien thought about them.

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51 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

To be fair, he rather had to go into mortal combat with the Balrog. He'd happily have avoided it if he could.


Yeah. In fact he tries everything he can to avoid it, and nearly pisses himself when Saruman manipulates things so that they have to go through Moria.
If I recall correctly. A re-read of LotR is well overdue for me.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Didn't Smaug make the whole mountain shake just by throwing a tantrum after Bilbo stole the cup? Couldn't he just kind of, like, smash Durin's Bane with his foot? I imagine both would have some sort of immunity to fire.

This is literally a conversation about, "Which would win, a giant dragon or a manifested demon."

So, I suppose it depends greatly on what we think the capacities of Demons in Tolkien's world are.

However, my basic opinion on the subject is that Sauron and Gandalf are both an equivalent to the Balrog with the former being what happens when you don't hold back your power beneath a veil of flesh. The Balrog lacks Sauron's craftsmanship abilities but is undiminished by the fact he has not put so much of his power in the One Ring (I always wondered if the Nine gave back Sauron any of his power or if that's misunderstanding what the rings do). The Balrog and Gandalf duke it out for days in locations where they don't have to hold back their full power and I'm inclined to think that Smaug is....fundamentally....a mortal being and a Balrog is not.

Specifically, in the context that Smaug in the books dies at the hands of an arrow that penetrates his armor. Movie Smaug dies as a result of being harpooned.

I don't think that would work on a Balrog.

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36 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Did Gandalf, in the books, organize the whole undertaking in The Hobbit because he considered Smaug too dangerous of a piece to be left on the board? Or was that just added in to the Hobbit movies to connect them more directly with the events of LotR?

Tolkien originally wrote the "backstory justification" as part of LOTR, but cut it for space reasons. The result is that it appears in an abridged form in Appendix A (which is how Jackson was able to use it), and in full manuscript form in Unfinished Tales (which Jackson wasn't allowed to use).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Quest_of_Erebor

Fun fact: Tolkien actually started work on a revised version of The Hobbit to make it more serious and less whimsical. He stopped just before he reached the trolls, because he realised it wasn't The Hobbit any more.

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Gandalf vs the Witch-King was Gandalf the White, who is more powerful than the Grey. It was the Grey who had to deal with Smaug and the Balrog.

Another thought: unless you count Tuor in the original Fall of Gondolin, Balrogs tend to be slain by Elves/Maiar (Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Gandalf). Dragons tend to be slain by Men (Bard, Turin, Fram, Earendil*).

*Yes, he opted to be considered an Elf. He's still half-human, and went with the Elves for his wife's sake, even though he identified with Men). 

 

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44 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

@RBPL Do we know if Gandalf was wearing his own ring of power when he fought Durin's Bane?

Yes, because he never takes it off.

Also, I should note Gandalf WAS going to confront Smaug with the dwarves. However, he ended up being diverted to fight the Necromancer instead. I imagine Gandalf is the kind of guy who CAN go toe-to-toe with dragons if necessary but would prefer a more sneaky less ostentatious manner of dealing with Smaug if possible. His body is still mortal even if his power is godlike.

Gandalfs plan was to get an army together with the Arkenstone after all.

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23 hours ago, Damned with the Wind said:

Balrog is to Ciphrang as Smaug is to Wutteat, yes?   Ciphrang despawn after taking a considerable beating.  Perhaps Balrog do as well? Turning into Maia-vapor?  Wutteat could undoubtedly take any Ciphrang a sorcerer is capable of summoning.  This line of thinking has made me reverse my initial thought that the Balrog would defeat Smaug.

At the risk of Bakkaking this Tolkien thread, I would say that with regards to Earwa, we have not yet seen enough of the dragons or enough of Ciphrangs to make any sort of judgement on who comes out on top.

Certainly the wracu are held far above Sranc and Bashrag. And Bashrag would not be an apt comparison for a Balrog, but a Ciphrang, yes, but seeing as these are summoned from the Outside, they could be all manner of creatures of varying size and ability. Certainly the single one that we did see gave Achamian a fight close to death. I wonder if we will see them in Unholy Consult.

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Balrog. Dragons are considered highly dangerous, but ultimately defeatable by men. Balrogs are only defeated by Maia or High Elves at the very height of their power and abilities.

For Earwa, Wracu are likewise defeatable by Men (Nau-Cayuti kills one). Ciphrang can only really be driven off by a massive display of sorcery.

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