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[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4


Suzanna Stormborn

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6 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Dany won't care, but Jon might. He spent a great deal of time among the wildlings, who thought that even marrying someone in the same tribe as you was blasphemy. If he embraces the ways of the free folk post-resurrection (which wouldn't be that unexpected, since they're the ones most familiar with wargs, and Jon's consciousness is currently floating around inside of his direwolf) he may be troubled by the realization. I imagine discovering that Ned Stark, his idol, is not his father is also going to take an emotional toll on him.  

I would agree with this pre-stabbing.  

I have a feeling that once Jon is dead and his spirit goes into Ghost then he is raised from the dead he will care a lot less about trivial human emotions. I think it's the same about coupling with his Aunt; would a wolf care?

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48 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

do you all agree that bookDany and bookJon will not have any qualms at all about being related?

I cannot believe D&D are already focusing on the fact that the 'incest' will be an issue for D&J's relationship on the HBO. It's like they are taking a 21st century American stance on this issue for whatever reason.

Targaryens dgaf about being related and I cannot see bookJon caring much either once he finds out.  They did not grow up together so it's not really weird.  Cersei and Jaime growing up together, knowing what they are doing is wrong and doing it anyway is 'weird'. but marrying a stranger who you happen to be related to would raise no eyebrows in bookWesteros if you ask me.

I actually bothered to watch the post-episode crap (which always makes me angry because Benoiff is such a douche and it annoys me to no end he got such an all around great woman like Amanda Peet...anyway, sorry), and my impression was D&D were hinting much more at tension arising between Jon and Dany due to the line of succession thing.  Seems to me that's how they'll try to build up faux-tension next season like Arya-Sansa this season, which I believe LV was arguing earlier.

I think bookJon might be a bit creeped out if he finds out Dany's his aunt after he fucks her, sure.  I don't anticipate it being a major point of contention within the books - and certainly Dany won't care.

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16 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

The only logic that I have read that makes it seem at all plausible for Jon to be Aegon is if Rhaegar convinced Lyanna that TPTWP was named Aegon -- which is why Rhaegar named his son by Elia Aegon. Then when that Aegon dies, Lyanna realizes that he could not be TPTWP (as he is dead) so Jon must be TPTWP, and Lyanna gave Jon that name in a belief that given the prophecy that Rhaegar told, Jon is the only viable candidate left so he must be TPTWP and thus must be named Aegon. I am not convinced by this argument -- but it is the only one I have heard that gives any remotely plausible explanation for how Jon could have come to be named Aegon.

Well, that argument doesn't make any sense considering that Rhaegar did not choose to name his firstborn son Aegon because he believed him to be the promised prince but because it was a name fit for a king - which Aegon would have been if everything had gone as it was supposed to go.

The idea that Aegon is a special name for the promised prince isn't supported by the text. And neither is the idea that Lyanna actually cared about prophecies and such.

And the idea that Lyanna must have thought her son would be the promised prince just because Aegon wasn't because he is (supposedly) dead (which she may or may not have known) doesn't make a lot of sense, either. Neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna have any real reason to think that only their children can be the promised prince and/or contribute to the three dragon heads.

16 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

As to why I think Aemon so much more likely than any other Targ name -- the reason (in addition to the textual clues) is what the name would mean to Jon. Aemon is the only Targ name that might make Jon be proud to be a Targ. Jon has no connection to any other Targ name. Jon admired Maester Aemon (and apparently Aemon the Dragonheart, as Jon pretended to be him as a child -- one of the clues in favor of Jon as Aemon). So finding out his real name is Aemon could be impactful for Jon's thinking regarding being a Targ -- any other name would mean nothing to Jon (other than maybe Aegon -- but as noted above, Aegon seems unlikely to me for other reasons, and Jon never pretended to be Aegon the Conqueror, but rather Aemon the Dragonheart).

Well, Daeron could work for that same reason, too. Jon really wanted to be the Young Dragon, once. But it is not that likely that Rhaegar would have wanted to name him Daeron - not completely unlikely, but considerably less likely than Aemon or Jaehaerys.

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46 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

The only logic that I have read that makes it seem at all plausible for Jon to be Aegon is if Rhaegar convinced Lyanna that TPTWP was named Aegon -- which is why Rhaegar named his son by Elia Aegon. Then when that Aegon dies, Lyanna realizes that he could not be TPTWP (as he is dead) so Jon must be TPTWP, and Lyanna gave Jon that name in a belief that given the prophecy that Rhaegar told, Jon is the only viable candidate left so he must be TPTWP and thus must be named Aegon. I am not convinced by this argument -- but it is the only one I have heard that gives any remotely plausible explanation for how Jon could have come to be named Aegon.

As to why I think Aemon so much more likely than any other Targ name -- the reason (in addition to the textual clues) is what the name would mean to Jon. Aemon is the only Targ name that might make Jon be proud to be a Targ. Jon has no connection to any other Targ name. Jon admired Maester Aemon (and apparently Aemon the Dragonheart, as Jon pretended to be him as a child -- one of the clues in favor of Jon as Aemon). So finding out his real name is Aemon could be impactful for Jon's thinking regarding being a Targ -- any other name would mean nothing to Jon (other than maybe Aegon -- but as noted above, Aegon seems unlikely to me for other reasons, and Jon never pretended to be Aegon the Conqueror, but rather Aemon the Dragonheart).

Actually, the best possible logic for Jon being named Aegon, is the most obvious explanation, and yet one that no one seems to want to consider.

Namely that the prophecy Rhaegar discovered, convinced him that the Prince who was Promised would be named Aegon, and would be his son. And at the time that Elia's son was born, Rhaegar believed that he was the Aegon of prophecy. And it is that moment which Dany sees in her vision. But later Rhaegar discovers that Elia's children were not his, but someone else's (I vote for Arthur Dayne, with the Arriane/Gerold Dayne scenes meant to lay the foundation for that. Dornish princess, infatuated with the beautiful Ser Dayne).

And that after Rhaegar learnt that Elia's Aegon was not his child, he was driven to seek and marry Lyanna. Meaning Jon was his only son, and the one he named Aegon as per the prophecy.

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22 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Dany won't care, but Jon might. He spent a great deal of time among the wildlings, who thought that even marrying someone in the same tribe as you was blasphemy. If he embraces the ways of the free folk post-resurrection (which wouldn't be that unexpected, since they're the ones most familiar with wargs, and Jon's consciousness is currently floating around inside of his direwolf) he may be troubled by the realization. I imagine discovering that Ned Stark, his idol, is not his father is also going to take an emotional toll on him.  

Uncle-niece marriages as well as cousin marriages are fine for the Starks. Jon should know that and thus there shouldn't be any problems with that. A man who survived death shouldn't care all that much about who he is going to fuck - I mean, honestly, why shouldn't such a person care whether it is right or wrong to sleep with his sister or mother if that's what he wants to do? He has much larger issues to deal with and if that's what gives him happiness and makes his miserable life bearable he should be fine with that.

The fact that he isn't Ned's son and that he was essentially betrayed and lied to by the man he loved most is likely going to be a huge blow. I mean, yeah, Ned may have tried to save him from Robert and all but there is really no good justification - at least not one Jon might be willing to buy - as to why he never told him later on. Not even when he decided to take the black. And that clearly kept him apart from the other part of his family, a family he might have been willing to search out had he known they existed. I mean, Jon could have wanted to go to Viserys instead of the Wall in AGoT if he had know the man was his other uncle, right?

But as things stand the revelation should actually help Jon to strengthen his bond with Daenerys because she clearly is the family who counts now. She is the woman he wants to be with.

13 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

I actually bothered to watch the post-episode crap (which always makes me angry because Benoiff is such a douche and it annoys me to no end he got such an all around great woman like Amanda Peet...anyway, sorry), and my impression was D&D were hinting much more at tension arising between Jon and Dany due to the line of succession thing.  Seems to me that's how they'll try to build up faux-tension next season like Arya-Sansa this season, which I believe LV was arguing earlier.

These people are so fucking unimaginative and predictable. I mean, suddenly the line of succession is supposed to be important? Really? After Cersei took the Iron Throne and pretty much nobody rebelled?

Most likely we'll get a bunch of people talking behind closed doors about this thing, and people are then suddenly thinking that Jon would be a much better king than Dany who should better go back where she came from without any of it making any sense. They might also use that to create conflict between Dany and Jon themselves but there is even less potential there than to do it in their respective circles.

But it is quite clear that this is what they are getting at and it is not 'evil incest'. If they wanted to do that we would have gotten some talk about the horrendous incestuous uncle-niece marriages - and the other incestuous marriages - the Targaryens had this episode. We would even have gotten something along the lines of Jon joking that he can only fuck Dany because he isn't her brother or uncle because it would be sooo gross if that was the case and he could never, ever get his cock to work if that was the case.

But we didn't get any of that sort.

13 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

I think bookJon might be a bit creeped out if he finds out Dany's his aunt after he fucks her, sure.  I don't anticipate it being a major point of contention within the books - and certainly Dany won't care.

I'm pretty sure the undead Jon will have to have more important things to worry about then how closely related he is to the woman he loves and desires.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, that argument doesn't make any sense considering that Rhaegar did not choose to name his firstborn son Aegon because he believed him to be the promised prince but because it was a name fit for a king - which Aegon would have been if everything had gone as it was supposed to go.

The idea that Aegon is a special name for the promised prince isn't supported by the text. And neither is the idea that Lyanna actually cared about prophecies and such.

And the idea that Lyanna must have thought her son would be the promised prince just because Aegon wasn't because he is (supposedly) dead (which she may or may not have known) doesn't make a lot of sense, either. Neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna have any real reason to think that only their children can be the promised prince and/or contribute to the three dragon heads.

Well, Daeron could work for that same reason, too. Jon really wanted to be the Young Dragon, once. But it is not that likely that Rhaegar would have wanted to name him Daeron - not completely unlikely, but considerably less likely than Aemon or Jaehaerys.

While I tend to agree, let me give the other side the best counter-argument I can invent. The Rhaegar quote you referenced is: 

"Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

Rhaegar does not expressly state that Aegon was given that name because it is a good name for a king. Rather Aegon is the baby's name (maybe because TPTWP is to be named Aegon) and that name also happens to be a good name for a King. So maybe Rhaegar named the baby Aegon because TPTWP is to be Aegon -- but then commented that this name also is a good name for a King (as Rhaegar assumed the baby would be one day).

As to whether Aegon is the name of TPTWP, that element of the prophecy might be revealed later. Perhaps GRRM has not disclosed that part of the prophecy (but implied it by having Rhaegar name the baby Aegon and state that the baby is TPTWP -- maybe the two are more connected than first appears). So while the text does not state that expressly support TPTWP as Aegon (if it did, this debate might be over) -- but the text does not exclude the possibility that Aegon is part of the prophecy.

EXCEPT Aemon, who knows as much about the prophecy as Rhaegar, indicated that TPTWP might be female -- might be Dany -- and Aemon would not have made that guess if the prophecy gave the name Aegon to TPTWP. Based on what Aemon stated, the closest the prophecy gets to identifying the promised prince is apparently to suggest that it would be the "dragon" that was promised (no gender for dragon in Valyrian) and does not even use a gender specific term like "prince" at all. So the likelihood that the prophecy uses the name Aegon is virtually impossible.

So it would have to be Rhaegar who was insistent that TPTWP be named Aegon for some reason and Lyanna was honoring this wish. And Rhaegar and Lyanna would have had to have talked about the prophecy more than we have been led to believe (possible). But I have no idea how such a wish could have been communicated by Rhaegar given that Aegon was alive when Rhaegar left for KL. Basically, the logic seems to fall apart -- and so I am not sure how GRRM could have Jon's name be Aegon -- but I will try to be patient to wait to find out for sure (although probably not revealed in next book -- so really long wait).

Oh, finally, Daeron? Jon's name might be Daeron? Really? That would be pretty lame, don't you think?

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Uncle-niece marriages as well as cousin marriages are fine for the Starks. Jon should know that and thus there shouldn't be any problems with that. A man who survived death shouldn't care all that much about who he is going to fuck - I mean, honestly, why shouldn't such a person care whether it is right or wrong to sleep with his sister or mother if that's what he wants to do? He has much larger issues to deal with and if that's what gives him happiness and makes his miserable life bearable he should be fine with that.

The fact that he isn't Ned's son and that he was essentially betrayed and lied to by the man he loved most is likely going to be a huge blow. I mean, yeah, Ned may have tried to save him from Robert and all but there is really no good justification - at least not one Jon might be willing to buy - as to why he never told him later on. Not even when he decided to take the black. And that clearly kept him apart from the other part of his family, a family he might have been willing to search out had he known they existed. I mean, Jon could have wanted to go to Viserys instead of the Wall in AGoT if he had know the man was his other uncle, right?

But as things stand the revelation should actually help Jon to strengthen his bond with Daenerys because she clearly is the family who counts now. She is the woman he wants to be with.

These people are so fucking unimaginative and predictable. I mean, suddenly the line of succession is supposed to be important? Really? After Cersei took the Iron Throne and pretty much nobody rebelled?

Most likely we'll get a bunch of people talking behind closed doors about this thing, and people are then suddenly thinking that Jon would be a much better king than Dany who should better go back where she came from without any of it making any sense. They might also use that to create conflict between Dany and Jon themselves but there is even less potential there than to do it in their respective circles.

But it is quite clear that this is what they are getting at and it is not 'evil incest'. If they wanted to do that we would have gotten some talk about the horrendous incestuous uncle-niece marriages - and the other incestuous marriages - the Targaryens had this episode. We would even have gotten something along the lines of Jon joking that he can only fuck Dany because he isn't her brother or uncle because it would be sooo gross if that was the case and he could never, ever get his cock to work if that was the case.

But we didn't get any of that sort.

I'm pretty sure the undead Jon will have to have more important things to worry about then how closely related he is to the woman he loves and desires.

You really feel strongly about this crusade to try and drive this wedge between Jon and dead Eddard. For you this "conflict" that Jon is supposed to experience really is important. You've been pushing that theory for years now. I think nothing of the sort. I think he will end up admiring Eddard for the sacrifices he made to keep Jon's secret safe. Sure there will be some confusion and internal conflict at first. It's a big thing to learn, after all. But Jon is a much bigger person than someone who will find some petty reason to hate on the man who raised and loved him.

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On another note (I´m definitely on the "Aemon" bandwagon in the books although I did predict "Aegon" in the show - see a few pages above), what do you guys make of all those references to the last small dragons? Sounds very AJT to me...

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4 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

On another note (I´m definitely on the "Aemon" bandwagon in the books although I did predict "Aegon" in the show - see a few pages above), what do you guys make of all those references to the last small dragons? Sounds very AJT to me...

could be....

showDany sure has some audacity to complain about her ancestors locking the dragons up in the dragonpit when she herself locked her dragons up for a whole season. I guess she is lucky that their size and growth was not stunted at all, they are the exact same size as Drogon.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Most likely we'll get a bunch of people talking behind closed doors about this thing, and people are then suddenly thinking that Jon would be a much better king than Dany who should better go back where she came from without any of it making any sense. They might also use that to create conflict between Dany and Jon themselves but there is even less potential there than to do it in their respective circles.

Yeah.  Sad thing is I could really look forward to all the people heading North meeting up (e.g. Dany meeting the in-laws, both Lannister boys meeting Bran) next season, but after their efforts this season I suspect everything will either be rushed or injected with nonsensical conflict.  I'd actually appreciate it if they were more unimaginative - just step back and allow the history between and of these characters speak for itself.  But, it's becoming more and more clear they can't even get the gimme moments right.  So we'll probably have Tyrion creating a rift for some reason, or Arya inexplicably hating Dany, or Sansa inexplicably hating Dany, or some similar mishegoss.

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We would even have gotten something along the lines of Jon joking that he can only fuck Dany because he isn't her brother or uncle because it would be sooo gross if that was the case and he could never, ever get his cock to work if that was the case.

Speaking of them telegraphing their every move - not looking forward to the Dany pregnancy they forewarned in the dragonpit convo.

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm pretty sure the undead Jon will have to have more important things to worry about then how closely related he is to the woman he loves and desires.

Well, if we're assuming he loves and desires - and is active - with Dany, then I'd have to assume we're still getting Jon's thoughts on the matter.  In which case, yes, I think he'll have some conflicting thoughts upon realization of their relations.  But like I said, I don't think it will be much.  Like, a few pages total tops.

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24 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

You really feel strongly about this crusade to try and drive this wedge between Jon and dead Eddard. For you this "conflict" that Jon is supposed to experience really is important. You've been pushing that theory for years now. I think nothing of the sort. I think he will end up admiring Eddard for the sacrifices he made to keep Jon's secret safe. Sure there will be some confusion and internal conflict at first. It's a big thing to learn, after all. But Jon is a much bigger person than someone who will find some petty reason to hate on the man who raised and loved him.

I will not speak for LV, but here are my thoughts. I think that initially Jon will be very upset at the news. Everything he has believed his entire life is a lie -- and that will be hard to take. And who lied to him? Ned. Sure eventually I am sure Jon will realize that Ned was merely doing his best to save Jon's life -- but I don't think Jon comes to that point of view immediately. I think Jon will feel betrayed for some period of time and have some level of anger at Ned for lying to Jon his entire life.

GRRM is interested in how people deal with inner struggles. Jon is going to have an inner struggle to address -- and his initial anger at Ned will be one of them. And then maybe Jon feels guilty for being angry at Ned who was only trying to protect Jon. But Jon will not resolve this conflict in two paragraphs. Jon needs to struggle with it before he can come to terms with what Ned did and what it means to be a Targaryen.

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Jon will solve his paternity conflict the same way he solved Theon´s, but he is somewhat thick when dealing with his own conflicts, so it will take a bit more than 2 paragraphs / 2 episodes...

I.E. "You´re a Targaryen and a Stark"

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32 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

could be....

showDany sure has some audacity to complain about her ancestors locking the dragons up in the dragonpit when she herself locked her dragons up for a whole season. I guess she is lucky that their size and growth was not stunted at all, they are the exact same size as Drogon.

That was the best writing of the episode.  Me, I'm not a Dany fan, and many of her escapades in Meereen soured me on her, but when she locked up the dragons and then never even went to see them? I don't think?  Ugh, she can fuck off for the rest of the series.  

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39 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I will not speak for LV, but here are my thoughts. I think that initially Jon will be very upset at the news. Everything he has believed his entire life is a lie -- and that will be hard to take. And who lied to him? Ned. Sure eventually I am sure Jon will realize that Ned was merely doing his best to save Jon's life -- but I don't think Jon comes to that point of view immediately. I think Jon will feel betrayed for some period of time and have some level of anger at Ned for lying to Jon his entire life.

GRRM is interested in how people deal with inner struggles. Jon is going to have an inner struggle to address -- and his initial anger at Ned will be one of them. And then maybe Jon feels guilty for being angry at Ned who was only trying to protect Jon. But Jon will not resolve this conflict in two paragraphs. Jon needs to struggle with it before he can come to terms with what Ned did and what it means to be a Targaryen.

Jon's entire story has been an inner struggle. That gets tired to read about after 5 books. George isn't going to drag it out with even more inner struggle, brooding and moping. Especially not after Jon has had his "awakening", also known as "killing the brooding boy and letting the man be born", also known as dying and being resurrected.

Sure, he will need to reshape his world view. But he is still half a Stark, just like he would have been if Ned was his father. It's just that he is now half Targaryen, rather than half commoner. It changes the options he has available to save humanity, which should be his main priority after the boy dies and the man rises in his place.

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35 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

While I tend to agree, let me give the other side the best counter-argument I can invent. The Rhaegar quote you referenced is: 

"Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

Rhaegar does not expressly state that Aegon was given that name because it is a good name for a king. Rather Aegon is the baby's name (maybe because TPTWP is to be named Aegon) and that name also happens to be a good name for a King. So maybe Rhaegar named the baby Aegon because TPTWP is to be Aegon -- but then commented that this name also is a good name for a King (as Rhaegar assumed the baby would be one day).

Well, then why didn't Rhaegar say any of that? There is just no reason to believe that anyone ever believed the promised prince should be named Aegon. I mean, if that was the case then Rhaegar must have come up with that notion since his parents, grandfather, and great-granduncle - who believed he was the promised prince upon his birth - didn't name him Aegon but gave him the rather obscure name Rhaegar.

We have as much evidence for the idea that the promised prince must be named Rhaegar than we have for the idea that people believed he must be named Aegon.

35 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

As to whether Aegon is the name of TPTWP, that element of the prophecy might be revealed later. Perhaps GRRM has not disclosed that part of the prophecy (but implied it by having Rhaegar name the baby Aegon and state that the baby is TPTWP -- maybe the two are more connected than first appears). So while the text does not state that expressly support TPTWP as Aegon (if it did, this debate might be over) -- but the text does not exclude the possibility that Aegon is part of the prophecy.

If that was the case then the nobody would talk about the promised prince but rather 'the promised Aegon' or 'the promised prince named Aegon', right? I mean, if the name of the guy was part of the prophecy we should have heard that by now.

35 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

EXCEPT Aemon, who knows as much about the prophecy as Rhaegar, indicated that TPTWP might be female -- might be Dany -- and Aemon would not have made that guess if the prophecy gave the name Aegon to TPTWP. Based on what Aemon stated, the closest the prophecy gets to identifying the promised prince is apparently to suggest that it would be the "dragon" that was promised (no gender for dragon in Valyrian) and does not even use a gender specific term like "prince" at all. So the likelihood that the prophecy uses the name Aegon is virtually impossible.

Exactly. Even more so, it is quite clear that the dragon in question doesn't have to be born in wedlock or be seen as of legitimate birth by the (majority of the) society he lives in.

35 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

So it would have to be Rhaegar who was insistent that TPTWP be named Aegon for some reason and Lyanna was honoring this wish. And Rhaegar and Lyanna would have had to have talked about the prophecy more than we have been led to believe (possible). But I have no idea how such a wish could have been communicated by Rhaegar given that Aegon was alive when Rhaegar left for KL. Basically, the logic seems to fall apart -- and so I am not sure how GRRM could have Jon's name be Aegon -- but I will try to be patient to wait to find out for sure (although probably not revealed in next book -- so really long wait).

Well, there is a lot we don't yet know there and it certainly makes sense to assume that Rhaegar told Lyanna about the prophecy - but there is no reason to assume she bought any of his ideas there.

35 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Oh, finally, Daeron? Jon's name might be Daeron? Really? That would be pretty lame, don't you think?

Why? It is the most prominent male Targaryen name aside from Aegon.

48 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

You really feel strongly about this crusade to try and drive this wedge between Jon and dead Eddard. For you this "conflict" that Jon is supposed to experience really is important. You've been pushing that theory for years now. I think nothing of the sort. I think he will end up admiring Eddard for the sacrifices he made to keep Jon's secret safe. Sure there will be some confusion and internal conflict at first. It's a big thing to learn, after all. But Jon is a much bigger person than someone who will find some petty reason to hate on the man who raised and loved him.

Oh. come on, you don't have to be me to see the potential there. Just imagine you yourself are an adopted child and then you find out. Nobody likes that.

But then imagine you are an adopted child and you are cut off from the family company and asset for that reason. Then it turns out that you are adopted and your true father was a billionaire and your 'father' tricked you out of your inheritance by not telling you.

If you think that's not potential for conflict I don't know what is.

Jon has gotten around to accept his identity as a Snow, not a Stark. He is Lord Snow, the bastard son of a Stark, not a Stark. The revelation is not going to destroy this identity he has finally gotten around to accept but also rip up the old wounds of his memories living with the Starks. He could have been Robb and Arya's beloved cousin, not their bastard half-brother. Everything could have been well if Ned Stark had had the guts to be honest to his family.

And then there is the other thing - the fact that Jon is a Targaryen prince. Once he finds out he might think that backing Robert Baratheon was, you know, treason. Or at least not something he wished Ned wouldn't have continued to do after he found out that he, 'Jon Snow', still lived. He might be of the opinion that House Stark should have declared for King Viserys III Targaryen or even tried to seat him on the Iron Throne.

It is not that Jon wants to be king or anything - but if you suddenly learn you are a royal prince then this does something to your self-image. You think about who and what you could have been if you hadn't been tricked out of your inheritance. The people preventing you from ever finding that out no longer look all that nice to you.

We don't know how close Dany-Jon will be in the books but they could both reach the conclusion that both their lives would have been much more happier if they had grown up together instead of meeting each other in the middle of a war.

And I never said that Jon is going to hate Ned for what he did. Just that he might no longer love him the way he once did. The man isn't his biological father, after all, and he betrayed him in a very real sense. And we don't really know why Ned did not tell the truth at least when he took the black. It is actually quite likely that he went along with that because it was a convenient solution for the Jon problem. Targaryen prince or not, once Jon has said the words he can never make a claim. And thus Ned's buddy Robert sits much safer on the Iron Throne than he would if Jon had known who he was and taken steps to actually help in a Targaryen restoration.

54 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah.  Sad thing is I could really look forward to all the people heading North meeting up (e.g. Dany meeting the in-laws, both Lannister boys meeting Bran) next season, but after their efforts this season I suspect everything will either be rushed or injected with nonsensical conflict.  I'd actually appreciate it if they were more unimaginative - just step back and allow the history between and of these characters speak for itself.  But, it's becoming more and more clear they can't even get the gimme moments right.  So we'll probably have Tyrion creating a rift for some reason, or Arya inexplicably hating Dany, or Sansa inexplicably hating Dany, or some similar mishegoss.

Tyrion seems to go down the jealousy road. I mean, that's what we can take him from turning into a peeping tom, right? That is something that we might get in the books, too. Especially if Tyrion is Dany's half-brother he is not going to like the idea to share her with their (half-)nephew - be he Jon Snow, Aegon, both, or anyone.

But the way they have destroyed the Targaryen claim in the show - basically no Targaryen loyalists around who actually fight for Dany because she is a Targaryen - there is actually no reason why on earth anyone should believe Jon would be a better Targaryen king because of his claim. I mean, the North basically hates all Targaryens so they should hate Jon as much as Daenerys now, right? They should at least like him a lot less, especially since he basically sold the North to Daenerys.

But with the whole relationship thing they have going one cannot really see how anyone should be able to drive a real wedge between these two unless the write Jon as this dude who suddenly thinks he is the supreme king of everything now because he is Rhaegar's son.

The most rational (and obvious) way to deal with that would be to settle things within the marriage/relationship, with them ruling jointly. Especially while they still have the hots for each other in a very strong sense that should work without any problems - and that's most likely going to be the case for the remainder of the show.

But the way Jon is written would make it even more likely that he would not think he is this great king who should dominate Daenerys - he bent the knee to her already, so he would most likely more than content to be her prince or king consort, and command her armies and do other things he as a man can do much better than she can in this patriarchal society.

If Prince Daemon could be the prince consort at Rhaenyra's side then Jon can do the same at Dany's side.

54 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Speaking of them telegraphing their every move - not looking forward to the Dany pregnancy they forewarned in the dragonpit convo.

As Linda has pointed out in her video - the show never included the lines about Dany's barrenness into the show. Which means the whole plot doesn't make any sense.

Chances are pretty good that she might get pregnant but I'm not sure she will be able to carry a child to term in just six episodes.

54 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Well, if we're assuming he loves and desires - and is active - with Dany, then I'd have to assume we're still getting Jon's thoughts on the matter.  In which case, yes, I think he'll have some conflicting thoughts upon realization of their relations.  But like I said, I don't think it will be much.  Like, a few pages total tops.

It would depend whether he falls in love with her before he learns the truth about himself or thereafter. It could be different in the books. If it were then he would care even less about things like that. If not then it could be a minor issue. But I actually think it should strengthen their relationship in the books if Dany is already there when he finds out. Because they will then be even more closer than they are before. Dany is not just going to be a/the woman he loves but also a family member. And that is going to be a nice and positive thing while they are working together to save mankind from extinction.

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18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, then why didn't Rhaegar say any of that? There is just no reason to believe that anyone ever believed the promised prince should be named Aegon. I mean, if that was the case then Rhaegar must have come up with that notion since his parents, grandfather, and great-granduncle - who believed he was the promised prince upon his birth - didn't name him Aegon but gave him the rather obscure name Rhaegar.

We have as much evidence for the idea that the promised prince must be named Rhaegar than we have for the idea that people believed he must be named Aegon.

If that was the case then the nobody would talk about the promised prince but rather 'the promised Aegon' or 'the promised prince named Aegon', right? I mean, if the name of the guy was part of the prophecy we should have heard that by now.

Exactly. Even more so, it is quite clear that the dragon in question doesn't have to be born in wedlock or be seen as of legitimate birth by the (majority of the) society he lives in.

Well, there is a lot we don't yet know there and it certainly makes sense to assume that Rhaegar told Lyanna about the prophecy - but there is no reason to assume she bought any of his ideas there.

Why? It is the most prominent male Targaryen name aside from Aegon.

Oh. come on, you don't have to be me to see the potential there. Just imagine you yourself are an adopted child and then you find out. Nobody likes that.

But then imagine you are an adopted child and you are cut off from the family company and asset for that reason. Then it turns out that you are adopted and your true father was a billionaire and your 'father' tricked you out of your inheritance by not telling you.

If you think that's not potential for conflict I don't know what is.

Jon has gotten around to accept his identity as a Snow, not a Stark. He is Lord Snow, the bastard son of a Stark, not a Stark. The revelation is not going to destroy this identity he has finally gotten around to accept but also rip up the old wounds of his memories living with the Starks. He could have been Robb and Arya's beloved cousin, not their bastard half-brother. Everything could have been well if Ned Stark had had the guts to be honest to his family.

And then there is the other thing - the fact that Jon is a Targaryen prince. Once he finds out he might think that backing Robert Baratheon was, you know, treason. Or at least not something he wished Ned wouldn't have continued to do after he found out that he, 'Jon Snow', still lived. He might be of the opinion that House Stark should have declared for King Viserys III Targaryen or even tried to seat him on the Iron Throne.

It is not that Jon wants to be king or anything - but if you suddenly learn you are a royal prince then this does something to your self-image. You think about who and what you could have been if you hadn't been tricked out of your inheritance. The people preventing you from ever finding that out no longer look all that nice to you.

We don't know how close Dany-Jon will be in the books but they could both reach the conclusion that both their lives would have been much more happier if they had grown up together instead of meeting each other in the middle of a war.

And I never said that Jon is going to hate Ned for what he did. Just that he might no longer love him the way he once did. The man isn't his biological father, after all, and he betrayed him in a very real sense. And we don't really know why Ned did not tell the truth at least when he took the black. It is actually quite likely that he went along with that because it was a convenient solution for the Jon problem. Targaryen prince or not, once Jon has said the words he can never make a claim. And thus Ned's buddy Robert sits much safer on the Iron Throne than he would if Jon had known who he was and taken steps to actually help in a Targaryen restoration.

 

You see, that's where you always lose me in this argument. I can get that Jon would feel turmoil and shock at the personal revelation, and would want to question Ned as to why he didn't tell him. The issue of his personal identity would be significant to him. But when you start going down the path of Ned stealing Jon's birthright, or kingship or access to "the family company" and so on and so forth, well sorry, but which books have you been reading? Who is this Jon that you are talking about? Because that's not our Jon. Identity is important to him, yes. But power and prestige? Nope. He could have had it, and turned it down when offered to him by Stannis. Kingship and glory for its own sake does not interest him.

As for him turning against the Starks all of a sudden. Nonsense. What he will see is that his one grandfather (the evil one) killed his other grandfather (the good and honorable one). And that the good side of his family was forced to go to war as a result. The rebellion was necessary. Aerys was batshit insane and a terrible tyrant.

And once that had happened, Jon's claim endangered his life. So Ned's only choice was to hide him. It wasn't because he wanted his buddy Robert on the Throne. It was because he didn't have the power to put Jon on the Throne, and he had promised to protect Jon's life.

Your attempts to insert base desires for power, prestige and the "kingship" into Jon's motivations are totally devoid of substance. That he will be temporarily upset and need to go down to the crypts to stare at Lyanna's tomb, where he will probably then achieve inner peace and accept the truth, well, that seems very likely. Him now suddenly siding with the cause of the psycho Targs just because they are half of his family, well, that isn't any more likely than him suddenly siding with House Dayne if he learnt that Ashara Dayne was his mother. He was raised a Stark, and will always identify with them.

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14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion seems to go down the jealousy road. I mean, that's what we can take him from turning into a peeping tom, right? That is something that we might get in the books, too. Especially if Tyrion is Dany's half-brother he is not going to like the idea to share her with their (half-)nephew - be he Jon Snow, Aegon, both, or anyone.

Yeah, that was definitely my first impression of that scene.  And most certainly this could be in the books as the variant of the Jon/Arya/Tyrion triangle proposed in the infamous outline.

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But with the whole relationship thing they have going one cannot really see how anyone should be able to drive a real wedge between these two unless the write Jon as this dude who suddenly thinks he is the supreme king of everything now because he is Rhaegar's son.

The most rational (and obvious) way to deal with that would be to settle things within the marriage/relationship, with them ruling jointly. Especially while they still have the hots for each other in a very strong sense that should work without any problems - and that's most likely going to be the case for the remainder of the show.

Right, exactly.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But the way Jon is written would make it even more likely that he would not think he is this great king who should dominate Daenerys - he bent the knee to her already, so he would most likely more than content to be her prince or king consort, and command her armies and do other things he as a man can do much better than she can in this patriarchal society.

If Prince Daemon could be the prince consort at Rhaenyra's side then Jon can do the same at Dany's side.

Especially so considering his conduct in the dragonpit scene.  BookJon is TBD, but they have arguably written themselves into a corner by hammering home how much ShowJon does not care about any throne, let alone the Iron Throne.

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As Linda has pointed out in her video - the show never included the lines about Dany's barrenness into the show. Which means the whole plot doesn't make any sense.

Chances are pretty good that she might get pregnant but I'm not sure she will be able to carry a child to term in just six episodes.

Right - in season 1 you mean?  Yeah, IIRC the barrenness isn't part of MMD's speech as it's somewhat rushed.  However, my point was this past season she not only mentions it to Jon in the past two episodes, but also Tyrion earlier.  I'm pretty sure at least (my memory of the season is already turning into a haze).  And that, to me, is a major red flag that preggers Dany is coming.  How that will play out, who knows, but I'll bet on it.

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It would depend whether he falls in love with her before he learns the truth about himself or thereafter.

Yes, this would certainly be crucial to his reaction.

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But I actually think it should strengthen their relationship in the books if Dany is already there when he finds out. Because they will then be even more closer than they are before. Dany is not just going to be a/the woman he loves but also a family member.

Disagree here.  If they're already an item before Jon finds out about his heritage, I think his relationship with Dany will only compound his conflicted feelings about being raised a bastard/his identity as a Stark and Targaryen/etc.  Oh, as an aside, that convo with Theon in the finale about "being a Greyjoy and a Stark" was once again a clumsy setup for Jon's own rationale when he finds out.

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6 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah, that was definitely my first impression of that scene.  And most certainly this could be in the books as the variant of the Jon/Arya/Tyrion triangle proposed in the infamous outline.

Right, exactly.

Especially so considering his conduct in the dragonpit scene.  BookJon is TBD, but they have arguably written themselves into a corner by hammering home how much ShowJon does not care about any throne, let alone the Iron Throne.

Right - in season 1 you mean?  Yeah, IIRC the barrenness isn't part of MMD's speech as it's somewhat rushed.  However, my point was this past season she not only mentions it to Jon in the past two episodes, but also Tyrion earlier.  I'm pretty sure at least (my memory of the season is already turning into a haze).  And that, to me, is a major red flag that preggers Dany is coming.  How that will play out, who knows, but I'll bet on it.

Yes, this would certainly be crucial to his reaction.

Disagree here.  If they're already an item before Jon finds out about his heritage, I think his relationship with Dany will only compound his conflicted feelings about being raised a bastard/his identity as a Stark and Targaryen/etc.  Oh, as an aside, that convo with Theon in the finale about "being a Greyjoy and a Stark" was once again a clumsy setup for Jon's own rationale when he finds out.

Well to me Jon fits the picture of the reluctant King rather perfectly. The old adage that those who seek power are the last people who should have it and all that. Of course he is going to cede his claim to Daenerys in the Show. And perhaps even in the books. It fits with his character build up. But this story is to have a bittersweet ending. Which to me would be Dany dying, and Jon being forced to become King out of duty. Fitting with the little line where he told her that he does not enjoy the things he is good at. The implication being that he does not wish to rule, but he will make a good, just king nonetheless, and will take up that duty because he must. Raising his and Dany's child for the bittersweet ending we were promised.

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8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well to me Jon fits the picture of the reluctant King rather perfectly. The old adage that those who seek power are the last people who should have it and all that. Of course he is going to cede his claim to Daenerys in the Show. And perhaps even in the books. It fits with his character build up. But this story is to have a bittersweet ending. Which to me would be Dany dying, and Jon being forced to become King out of duty. Fitting with the little line where he told her that he does not enjoy the things he is good at. The implication being that he does not wish to rule, but he will make a good, just king nonetheless, and will take up that duty because he must. Raising his and Dany's child for the bittersweet ending we were promised.

This could happen, sure.  I know this is a very contentious subject between some (*ahem*) but I'm honestly ambivalent, if not outright agnostic, on which of Jon or Dany dies.  But their relationship - which I think will be seen in the books in some fashion - has fortified my suspicion that one of them dies (and the other most likely survives).  If Jon is the one who survives?  Sure, I could see this happening in the books and even in the show by the end.

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I am already dreading the faux tension and the next season is at least 18 months away.

My comment on a lot of these theories is that some of you are vastly overestimating the amount of material left before the battle with the Others.

We have six episodes. The fifth one is obviously the battle. The sixth is obviously the wrap-up, which will undoubtedly include time skips to deal with missing ends (i.e., Daenerys returning to a King's Landing made ashes after Cersei went Aerys 2.0 rather than give up the city, Jaime choking Cersei to death, Daenerys giving birth and dying in the process, etc.)

So, really, we have four episodes of lead up and that's it.

Benioff and Weiss are already taking about things in terms of scenes, not even episodes. They have all the scenes mapped out already. That should tell you something. 

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