[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

[Free Northman Reborn]

5 minutes ago, Faint said:

I am already dreading the faux tension and the next season is at least 18 months away.

My comment on a lot of these theories is that some of you are vastly overestimating the amount of material left before the battle with the Others.

We have six episodes. The fifth one is obviously the battle. The sixth is obviously the wrap-up, which will undoubtedly include time skips to deal with missing ends (i.e., Daenerys returning to a King's Landing made ashes after Cersei went Aerys 2.0 rather than give up the city, Jaime choking Cersei to death, Daenerys giving birth and dying in the process, etc.)

So, really, we have four episodes of lead up and that's it.

Benioff and Weiss are already taking about things in terms of scenes, not even episodes. They have all the scenes mapped out already. That should tell you something. 

Yeah. The option I fear most, is the one where Jon dies in the battle, Dany dies in childbirth and friggin Tyrion gets to rule as Regent/Hand to their child. That would be pure bitter to me, with no sweet at all. 

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

You see, that's where you always lose me in this argument. I can get that Jon would feel turmoil and shock at the personal revelation, and would want to question Ned as to why he didn't tell him. The issue of his personal identity would be significant to him. But when you start going down the path of Ned stealing Jon's birthright, or kingship or access to "the family company" and so on and so forth, well sorry, but which books have you been reading? Who is this Jon that you are talking about? Because that's not our Jon. Identity is important to him, yes. But power and prestige? Nope. He could have had it, and turned it down when offered to him by Stannis. Kingship and glory for its own sake does not interest him.

The difference is that by the rules of this world the crown should very well have been his if everything had gone as it was supposed to go. That is a betrayal. If you knock me on the head and I lose my memory and identity you can be nice to me all day long - but if I remember who I truly am I will care more about that, and I will remember that you tried to prevent me from being who I was supposed to be by the right of birth.

Jon only is this modest guy because he knows a Stark bastard cannot be king. But a Targaryen prince can. And that identity was taken from him. Nothing prevents Rhaegar's son from claiming his grandfather's throne. In fact, one could even say that honor demands that he tries.

But a Stark bastard has no business laying claim to Winterfell while there are any trueborn Starks around. It would be betrayal and dishonorable. That is why Jon rejects Stannis' offer - he thinks it is wrong for him in his position to claim it. But he sure as hell wants it. He always wanted Winterfell.

And just for the record - I also think Jon is going to consider it wrong to push his claim against Daenerys' if they are already in love by that point. But he will still think about the fact that Ned, Howland, Wylla, whoever else knew the truth prevented him from making his move or being with his family when they needed him. The whole thing is a betrayal, never mind how you spin it.

And the crucial point will be the fact that it is a betrayal. The fact that it cost him a lot of happiness and a potentially much better life is also going to be important, but not necessarily as important as the fact that Jon's 'father' betrayed him and did not trust him to handle the truth.

If he has his Targaryen family (Daenerys and Tyrion?) around when he learns the truth it will help him to see who he truly is, not who Eddard Stark wanted him to be.

6 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for him turning against the Starks all of a sudden. Nonsense. What he will see is that his one grandfather (the evil one) killed his other grandfather (the good and honorable one). And that the good side of his family was forced to go to war as a result. The rebellion was necessary. Aerys was batshit insane and a terrible tyrant.

Who said anything about turning against the Starks? How should he even do that? But he might sure as hell go to his real family after that - the Targaryens. Jon's own mother stuck with Prince Rhaegar during the Rebellion. Why on earth do you think that her son would not think that Ned Stark owed his mother and her princely husband more than his buddy Robert? Blood should be thicker than water in this world and Rhaegar's son is Ned's nephew. not Robert's (at that point) non-existing son. You don't side with a friend against your own family.

The Targaryens are not Aerys II. Lyanna saw it that way, or else she would have left Rhaegar after his father burned Rickard and Brandon. Why shouldn't Jon, too?

At least at the point when all is figured out. And there are a lot of hints that Ned is rediscovering his Targaryen loyalty in AGoT - or do you think he is so adamant that Robert not kill Dany and Viserys because he is such a nice guy? No, that's all about the fact that Eddard Stark is kin-by-marriage to Viserys III Targaryen and Daenerys Targaryen and that he is raising their nephew as his own son.

The chances are about zero that Ned would truly have taken up arms against Viserys III had the man ever shown up. He is not the kind of man to fight against the uncle of his nephew and brother-in-law of his sister unless he has a very good reason. Fighting for your own life - as they did against Aerys - is one thing. Fighting to keep the corrupt Baratheon regime (which is going to be continued by Joffrey the Mad) in power is another thing entirely.

I'm not sure that Ned would have declared for Viserys III. But he may have remained neutral on the whole affair.

6 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

And once that had happened, Jon's claim endangered his life. So Ned's only choice was to hide him. It wasn't because he wanted his buddy Robert on the Throne. It was because he didn't have the power to put Jon on the Throne, and he had promised to protect Jon's life.

Will Jon know all that in detail? Will he believe it? Is this even true? Eddard Stark certainly could have turned against Robert Baratheon later on during the man's reign, spearheading a movement to restore Viserys III or Jon Snow to the Iron Throne. The Starks are not nobody, and Ned should be able to count on the support of the Tullys as well.

If I was Jon finding out who I actually am I'd sure as hell be pissed that my 'father' was more loyal to some buddy of his than his own nephew.

6 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Your attempts to insert base desires for power, prestige and the "kingship" into Jon's motivations are totally devoid of substance. That he will be temporarily upset and need to go down to the crypts to stare at Lyanna's tomb, where he will probably then achieve inner peace and accept the truth, well, that seems very likely. Him now suddenly siding with the cause of the psycho Targs just because they are half of his family, well, that isn't any more likely than him suddenly siding with House Dayne if he learnt that Ashara Dayne was his mother. He was raised a Stark, and will always identify with them.

He wasn't raised as a Stark. He was raised as a Snow. And he knows that difference even if you ignore it. Sure, he might be grateful that Ned saved his life but why should he be grateful for being treated the way he was by Catelyn thanks to Ned not telling them the truth? Why should he be grateful that his 'father' had him shipped to the Wall instead of telling him the truth so that he could make an informed decision, like any man would want to do? I mean, if I believe my only chance of greatness is at the Wall I sure as hell would go there. But if I know I'm a prince and have another (royal) family at the far end of the world who may be in need of my help - or at least welcome it more than my Stark kin who are perfectly happy with allowing to waste my life at the Wall - then I have another option. I'm sure Viserys III would have been a disappointment for Jon - but Daenerys not so much, right?

If I was Jon and I was told by Ned who I actually was I'd have seriously considered searching for Viserys III rather than spend my life at the Wall. Whether I'd have had the courage to travel to Essos at the age of fourteen I don't know. But I'm sure I would have left on the first ship bound to Pentos as sure as I had learned what the Watch actually is - and how shitty my life would be up there. I think you recall how unhappy Jon was at the Wall for the majority of AGoT. There is no way he would have stayed there and spoken the words had he known who he actually was. And he sure as hell deserved to know.

[Faint]

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yeah. The option I fear most, is the one where Jon dies in the battle, Dany dies in childbirth and friggin Tyrion gets to rule as Regent/Hand to their child. That would be pure bitter to me, with no sweet at all. 

Admittedly, that does seem to be where this is going. I have kind of made my peace with the first two but I do hope that Martin comes up with a more creative end for Tyrion. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The difference is that by the rules of this world the crown should very well have been his if everything had gone as it was supposed to go. That is a betrayal. If you knock me on the head and I lose my memory and identity you can be nice to me all day long - but if I remember who I truly am I will care more about that, and I will remember that you tried to prevent me from being who I was supposed to be by the right of birth.

Jon only is this modest guy because he knows a Stark bastard cannot be king. But a Targaryen prince can. And that identity was taken from him. Nothing prevents Rhaegar's son from claiming his grandfather's throne. In fact, one could even say that honor demands that he tries.

But a Stark bastard has no business laying claim to Winterfell while there are any trueborn Starks around. It would be betrayal and dishonorable. That is why Jon rejects Stannis' offer - he thinks it is wrong for him in his position to claim it. But he sure as hell wants it. He always wanted Winterfell.

And just for the record - I also think Jon is going to consider it wrong to push his claim against Daenerys' if they are already in love by that point. But he will still think about the fact that Ned, Howland, Wylla, whoever else knew the truth prevented him from making his move or being with his family when they needed him. The whole thing is a betrayal, never mind how you spin it.

And the crucial point will be the fact that it is a betrayal. The fact that it cost him a lot of happiness and a potentially much better life is also going to be important, but not necessarily as important as the fact that Jon's 'father' betrayed him and did not trust him to handle the truth.

If he has his Targaryen family (Daenerys and Tyrion?) around when he learns the truth it will help him to see who he truly is, not who Eddard Stark wanted him to be.

Who said anything about turning against the Starks? How should he even do that? But he might sure as hell go to his real family after that - the Targaryens. Jon's own mother stuck with Prince Rhaegar during the Rebellion. Why on earth do you think that her son would not think that Ned Stark owed his mother and her princely husband more than his buddy Robert? Blood should be thicker than water in this world and Rhaegar's son is Ned's nephew. not Robert's (at that point) non-existing son. You don't side with a friend against your own family.

The Targaryens are not Aerys II. Lyanna saw it that way, or else she would have left Rhaegar after his father burned Rickard and Brandon. Why shouldn't Jon, too?

At least at the point when all is figured out. And there are a lot of hints that Ned is rediscovering his Targaryen loyalty in AGoT - or do you think he is so adamant that Robert not kill Dany and Viserys because he is such a nice guy? No, that's all about the fact that Eddard Stark is kin-by-marriage to Viserys III Targaryen and Daenerys Targaryen and that he is raising their nephew as his own son.

The chances are about zero that Ned would truly have taken up arms against Viserys III had the man ever shown up. He is not the kind of man to fight against the uncle of his nephew and brother-in-law of his sister unless he has a very good reason. Fighting for your own life - as they did against Aerys - is one thing. Fighting to keep the corrupt Baratheon regime (which is going to be continued by Joffrey the Mad) in power is another thing entirely.

I'm not sure that Ned would have declared for Viserys III. But he may have remained neutral on the whole affair.

Will Jon know all that in detail? Will he believe it? Is this even true? Eddard Stark certainly could have turned against Robert Baratheon later on during the man's reign, spearheading a movement to restore Viserys III or Jon Snow to the Iron Throne. The Starks are not nobody, and Ned should be able to count on the support of the Tullys as well.

If I was Jon finding out who I actually am I'd sure as hell be pissed that my 'father' was more loyal to some buddy of his than his own nephew.

He wasn't raised as a Stark. He was raised as a Snow. And he knows that difference even if you ignore it. Sure, he might be grateful that Ned saved his life but why should he be grateful for being treated the way he was by Catelyn thanks to Ned not telling them the truth? Why should he be grateful that his 'father' had him shipped to the Wall instead of telling him the truth so that he could make an informed decision, like any man would want to do? I mean, if I believe my only chance of greatness is at the Wall I sure as hell would go there. But if I know I'm a prince and have another (royal) family at the far end of the world who may be in need of my help - or at least welcome it more than my Stark kin who are perfectly happy with allowing to waste my life at the Wall - then I have another option. I'm sure Viserys III would have been a disappointment for Jon - but Daenerys not so much, right?

If I was Jon and I was told by Ned who I actually was I'd have seriously considered searching for Viserys III rather than spend my life at the Wall. Whether I'd have had the courage to travel to Essos at the age of fourteen I don't know. But I'm sure I would have left on the first ship bound to Pentos as sure as I had learned what the Watch actually is - and how shitty my life would be up there. I think you recall how unhappy Jon was at the Wall for the majority of AGoT. There is no way he would have stayed there and spoken the words had he known who he actually was. And he sure as hell deserved to know.

You are projecting your base desires onto Jon. Anyway, I totally disagree.

[DMC]

16 minutes ago, Faint said:

My comment on a lot of these theories is that some of you are vastly overestimating the amount of material left before the battle with the Others.

We have six episodes. The fifth one is obviously the battle. The sixth is obviously the wrap-up, which will undoubtedly include time skips to deal with missing ends (i.e., Daenerys returning to a King's Landing made ashes after Cersei went Aerys 2.0 rather than give up the city, Jaime choking Cersei to death, Daenerys giving birth and dying in the process, etc.)

So, really, we have four episodes of lead up and that's it.

That's exactly why I'm lamenting the faux tension - the first four episodes could just be pretty straightforward character building, meetup, and whatever they'll do with Cersei (and even a Michael Bay set piece here and there!) - but instead we're gonna get crap like Arya-Sansa.

[Faint]

1 minute ago, dmc515 said:

That's exactly why I'm lamenting the faux tension - the first four episodes could just be pretty straightforward character building, meetup, and whatever they'll do with Cersei (and even a Michael Bay set piece here and there!) - but instead we're gonna get crap like Arya-Sansa.

I guess the good news is that, mercifully, they can only do it for a couple of episodes each, so two episodes of Starks v. Daenerys, then two episodes of Jon v. the Truth. 

[Lord Varys]

55 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah, that was definitely my first impression of that scene.  And most certainly this could be in the books as the variant of the Jon/Arya/Tyrion triangle proposed in the infamous outline.

Pretty much, yes. I'm reasonably sure that Dany may end up marrying both Tyrion and Jon, but she is only really going to be romantically and sexually attracted to Jon. And that's not going to be something Tyrion is going to like. Especially since he is likely to spend much more time with her and ending up to be really close to her on the sibling-and-advisor level. Even if he doesn't want to be jealous he won't be able to help himself.

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Especially so considering his conduct in the dragonpit scene.  BookJon is TBD, but they have arguably written themselves into a corner by hammering home how much ShowJon does not care about any throne, let alone the Iron Throne.

Well, with book Jon we have still no idea what death is going to do to him. It should change him. I'm reasonably confident that he couldn't care less about thrones and crowns after he has come back from death. I mean, why should any such person give a shit about such mundane thing or even about ruling over people in general?

He'll do his best to defeat the Others but that's not the same as rebuilding a war-torn kingdom or better the lives of your people.

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Right - in season 1 you mean?  Yeah, IIRC the barrenness isn't part of MMD's speech as it's somewhat rushed.  However, my point was this past season she not only mentions it to Jon in the past two episodes, but also Tyrion earlier.  I'm pretty sure at least (my memory of the season is already turning into a haze).  And that, to me, is a major red flag that preggers Dany is coming.  How that will play out, who knows, but I'll bet on it.

Sure, suddenly they realized that it would be great to have a barren Dany so the succession and dynasty is in danger. And then we can have a miracle child - what a great twist. Never mind that we never properly introduced the entire concept in our show.

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Disagree here.  If they're already an item before Jon finds out about his heritage, I think his relationship with Dany will only compound his conflicted feelings about being raised a bastard/his identity as a Stark and Targaryen/etc.  Oh, as an aside, that convo with Theon in the finale about "being a Greyjoy and a Stark" was once again a clumsy setup for Jon's own rationale when he finds out.

That would - at least in part - depend where exactly Jon Snow is by the time he meets Dany. I mean, is he a King in the North, a legitimized Stark bastard, a living god worshiped by a lot of zealous followers who took his resurrection after death as a sign that he can beat anything?

He is not going to be just some dude.

But if he really loves Dany that should all not matter all that much. If it is complicated and they have some sort of love-hate relationship his parentage certainly could become an issue. But I really think Dany-Jon will be Rhaegar-Lyanna 2.0, not repeating their wrongs. They will be the romance in this series, and it is going to work while both of them are still alive.

49 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well to me Jon fits the picture of the reluctant King rather perfectly. The old adage that those who seek power are the last people who should have it and all that. Of course he is going to cede his claim to Daenerys in the Show. And perhaps even in the books. It fits with his character build up. But this story is to have a bittersweet ending. Which to me would be Dany dying, and Jon being forced to become King out of duty. Fitting with the little line where he told her that he does not enjoy the things he is good at. The implication being that he does not wish to rule, but he will make a good, just king nonetheless, and will take up that duty because he must. Raising his and Dany's child for the bittersweet ending we were promised.

If he is already at Dany's side then he would already be king before her death, no? There wouldn't be that much difference between his status while Dany is alive and while she is dead.

36 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

This could happen, sure.  I know this is a very contentious subject between some (*ahem*) but I'm honestly ambivalent, if not outright agnostic, on which of Jon or Dany dies.  But their relationship - which I think will be seen in the books in some fashion - has fortified my suspicion that one of them dies (and the other most likely survives).  If Jon is the one who survives?  Sure, I could see this happening in the books and even in the show by the end.

Quite honestly, I was always certain that there will be a Targaryen restoration in the end, and I don't care whether it is a Daenerys or an Aegon (or Aemon, Jaehaerys, whatever) who brings it about. I just don't think that George will give Westeros a zombie king. Jon died. And that means he is most likely not going to survive the series.

That makes it more likely that Dany is going to survive. A death in childbirth is just silly - but Dany dying in the last battle, Dany being assassinated, Dany suffering a mortal accident - sure, why not? It is not that she somehow deserves to survive.

The way the show is telling the story one should actually expect both of them to survive since they are the heroes and most likely the ones who all people think should rule. But I'm not sure George is going to be that nice.

Both dying isn't all that unlikely, either, especially if they are the prophesied saviors and all. We don't know what that means yet, and ultimate death might be very well be part of that. There are other ways how the dynasty could survive, especially if Tyrion is a Targaryen, too.

27 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yeah. The option I fear most, is the one where Jon dies in the battle, Dany dies in childbirth and friggin Tyrion gets to rule as Regent/Hand to their child. That would be pure bitter to me, with no sweet at all. 

How so? Do you really think a certain character has to survive for the ending to be not bittersweet? This is such a huge ensemble of characters that pretty much all POVs could die (most horrible deaths) and the ending could still be bittersweet because there are so many other interesting characters to be happy.

26 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

You are projecting your base desires onto Jon. Anyway, I totally disagree.

Well, I think you should read yourself some Jon chapters again. The boy does want Winterfell. And he always wanted to make a name for himself. Eddard Stark didn't exactly help him with all that, no?

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, Faint said:

I guess the good news is that, mercifully, they can only do it for a couple of episodes each, so two episodes of Starks v. Daenerys, then two episodes of Jon v. the Truth. 

We'll have to wait and see how they play the Jon thing, anyway. If they only tell him and he eventually Daenerys then it could be pretty much a non-issue. And one really wonders who would care about that now that the Lich King is actually literally knocking at the door.

[Faint]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That makes it more likely that Dany is going to survive. A death in childbirth is just silly - but Dany dying in the last battle, Dany being assassinated, Dany suffering a mortal accident - sure, why not? It is not that she somehow deserves to survive.

Look, you do not have Daenerys say "I cannot have children," "I am barren," and "The dragons are the only children I will ever have" approximately 3,872 times without a baby.

This is Benioff and Weiss. This is what they do. 

[Lord Varys]

52 minutes ago, Faint said:

Look, you do not have Daenerys say "I cannot have children," "I am barren," and "The dragons are the only children I will ever have" approximately 3,872 times without a baby.

This is Benioff and Weiss. This is what they do. 

Sure, but this doesn't mean she has to die in childbirth, right?

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yeah. The option I fear most, is the one where Jon dies in the battle, Dany dies in childbirth and friggin Tyrion gets to rule as Regent/Hand to their child. That would be pure bitter to me, with no sweet at all. 

Don't forget the part where he ends up married to Sansa again. I can definitely see that happening. I've noticed that the show goes out of its way to make sure Sansa and the Hound never mention each other -- that must be up there with Lady Stoneheart on the list of things D&D really didn't like about the books.

51 minutes ago, Faint said:

Look, you do not have Daenerys say "I cannot have children," "I am barren," and "The dragons are the only children I will ever have" approximately 3,872 times without a baby.

This is Benioff and Weiss. This is what they do. 

That was why I predicted that they would play the Jon-Dany Targaryen relationship as something that would tear the two apart. If they wanted the characters to not be bothered by it, they would have mentioned that fact that the Targs were known for marrying their relatives about a hundred times by now. This show is not known for its subtlety. 

As for there not being much story left to tell, I'm rather amused that the show decided to go the Vampire Diaries route and have the death of a White Walker automatically kill all of its little wight-children. Like you said, I think next season is basically going to be four episodes in preparation for the big battle, followed by the final showdown in the fifth episode, and the aftermath in the finale.

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That would - at least in part - depend where exactly Jon Snow is by the time he meets Dany. I mean, is he a King in the North, a legitimized Stark bastard, a living god worshiped by a lot of zealous followers who took his resurrection after death as a sign that he can beat anything?

Sure - definitely hope he's not the latter!

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But if he really loves Dany that should all not matter all that much. If it is complicated and they have some sort of love-hate relationship his parentage certainly could become an issue. But I really think Dany-Jon will be Rhaegar-Lyanna 2.0, not repeating their wrongs. They will be the romance in this series, and it is going to work while both of them are still alive.

Can't disagree much with this.  Remember, the origin of this was to answer @Suzanna Stormborn's query of if it would bother BookJon.  I think it could - but in a very marginal way.  On the whole I'm with ya here.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I just don't think that George will give Westeros a zombie king. Jon died. And that means he is most likely not going to survive the series.

Well, first, this is dependent on what you think the nature of Jon's resurrection will be.  I'm pretty much on board with the "fire-wight" perspective, but I don't know what that entails.  And I don't think "losing oneself" is necessarily equivalent to "zombie."  Frankly I think Martin's comments on this make it less likely he fathers Dany's child rather than whether he survives or not.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That makes it more likely that Dany is going to survive. A death in childbirth is just silly - but Dany dying in the last battle, Dany being assassinated, Dany suffering a mortal accident - sure, why not? It is not that she somehow deserves to survive.

I share the sentiment that Dany dying in childbirth would be pretty lame.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The way the show is telling the story one should actually expect both of them to survive since they are the heroes and most likely the ones who all people think should rule. But I'm not sure George is going to be that nice.

Don't know about this.  While they've certainly held off on any big deaths for quite awhile now, D&D have been far more ruthless than Martin.  One could argue they'll let em both live due to their penchant for fan service, but the same rationale could be applied to killing (at least) one of them in their interest of the shocking moment.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Both dying isn't all that unlikely, either, especially if they are the prophesied saviors and all. We don't know what that means yet, and ultimate death might be very well be part of that. There are other ways how the dynasty could survive, especially if Tyrion is a Targaryen, too.

I actually kinda hope they both die, but that's cuz I'm a sap for martyrs.  However, I think that's far too bitter and far less sweet for most.  Also, even though he's my favorite character, closing the series on Tyrion shepherding in the new Targaryen dynasty strikes me as far too...cute for me.  Not sure on the adjective there - maybe hobbity? - but it just doesn't pass the sniff test IMO.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Since my first read of GoT, the chapter where Viserys dies I have been certain that these books end in a Targaryen restoration, agree with you there @Lord Varys

But I still think they are both going to live. I think the whole point is that they live and Westeros has a nice long period of peace when it's all over. Doesnt it deserve that? FFS

[Suzanna Stormborn]

5 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

That was the best writing of the episode.  Me, I'm not a Dany fan, and many of her escapades in Meereen soured me on her, but when she locked up the dragons and then never even went to see them? I don't think?  Ugh, she can fuck off for the rest of the series.  

Lol I was referring to showDany only. Mainly that D&D mustve completely forgotten she did that on their show?

bookDany I agree was wrong to lock them up, but she didnt do it that long. But more importantly I am quite certain that Martin wont have her chastising her family members for something she also did. It's just weird that they have such amnesia about their own series.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

That was why I predicted that they would play the Jon-Dany Targaryen relationship as something that would tear the two apart. If they wanted the characters to not be bothered by it, they would have mentioned that fact that the Targs were known for marrying their relatives about a hundred times by now. This show is not known for its subtlety. 

They only give us a lot of ham-fisted hints when things are already there, basically. A couple of episodes before. But, quite frankly, they are only aunt and nephew, not brother and sister or parent and child. This is not evil, evil incest. In fact, it is quite legal albeit very uncommon in most (modern) societies.

And it is not that the audience is necessary keeping track of all that. Who is that Rhaegar chap again? Does the average viewer know or care? This is not a family relation you can play up as evil incest and have the audience care about that. Not if there are only six episodes left.

34 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Well, first, this is dependent on what you think the nature of Jon's resurrection will be.  I'm pretty much on board with the "fire-wight" perspective, but I don't know what that entails.  And I don't think "losing oneself" is necessarily equivalent to "zombie."  Frankly I think Martin's comments on this make it less likely he fathers Dany's child rather than whether he survives or not.

I think that's more a matter of principle. It doesn't really matter how Jon is resurrected - the fact remains that he is going to survive death in some matter and that is not going to end well. He, personally, will have to pay for that. With his life. In the very end.

It can be more or less distasteful, of course. He could smell. He could have smoking wounds. He could have black hands and feet. Then he would be a real 'zombie king'.

Or not, and everything looks and smells normal again but isn't beneath the surface. That would be what I prefer, too, but we have to wait and see. I think death and resurrection will impact his mind much more than his body - although the latter is going to keep the wounds and scars, of course. And the strain on his mind will draw him ever more away from the mundane world and humanity. He'll fulfill his mission, and he may even rediscover his humanity and joy and passion with Daenerys - but even that is likely going to be double-edged sword. Fire consumes, and if there is a fire that's going to burn hot in this series it will be the passion between Daenerys Targaryen and Jon Snow. It might very well be what warms mankind during the Long Night. But when it is over there might be nothing left.

Dany could be consumed by that, too, of course, but Jon is the guy who is really likely to volunteer to lay down his life to defeat the Others. That's his entire mission.

34 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

I share the sentiment that Dany dying in childbirth would be pretty lame.

Well, it could be not that bad if it was somehow relevant to the plot but in the phase where this would have to happen it would not be likely to fit in very well. It would be just an arbitrary way of dying. If we get that, I'd prefer some important character going down with a ship or really falling down some stairs or having a different type accidents. Those things do happen.

34 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Don't know about this.  While they've certainly held off on any big deaths for quite awhile now, D&D have been far more ruthless than Martin.  One could argue they'll let em both live due to their penchant for fan service, but the same rationale could be applied to killing (at least) one of them in their interest of the shocking moment.

Sure, but the show really plays up their heroes. I could still see Jon sacrificing himself for Dany, etc. since he most likely is going to kill the Lich King, but I could just as well have the show go full action hero mode and have him survive everything. I mean, why not?

If you have the young couple let them try rebuild the world instead of people who are less likely to be able to do it.

34 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

I actually kinda hope they both die, but that's cuz I'm a sap for martyrs.  However, I think that's far too bitter and far less sweet for most.  Also, even though he's my favorite character, closing the series on Tyrion shepherding in the new Targaryen dynasty strikes me as far too...cute for me.  Not sure on the adjective there - maybe hobbity? - but it just doesn't pass the sniff test IMO.

The problem I have with that ending is that it is too bloody unrealistic for my taste. Without grown-up Targaryens (and some dragons) Westeros is not going to become a nice and better place. A child king is the bane and not the hope of a new dynasty, and Tyrion - or anyone - as a regent would have to rule for sixteen years if the child is born just around the end of the series. How successful can he be?

How likely is it that he - or anyone - could guarantee such a long period of peace and quiet? In this setting? That's not how the books can end, in my opinion, at least not if Tyrion isn't made a Targaryen himself and the rider of a living dragon. But then he would basically the king himself, with Dany-Jon's child only being his heir. That could work. The new regime must have teeth. I mean, the fight against the Others will lead to a huge a bloodletting in Westeros and the known world, and with that comes opportunity. In the realistic setting of the series the rebuilding era should be infinitely more interesting than the pre-Long Night era since social mobility and thus opportunity social-climbing and power-grabbing should be so much greater than ever before. If entire regions are depopulated and entire noble lines extinguished many people will want to move and secure all those assets. This is not going to be a time of peace and quiet.

If there is no strong power capable to keep the jackals in check Westeros would never see a child of Dany and Jon's live to maturity. Tyrion certainly is competent and he might even be able to rule with a strong hand if he is a Targaryen and dragonrider but he is never going to be loved, nor is he going to inspire loyalty and admiration. If the books ended with him in charge I'd not close the book confident with the thought that he lasted for more than a decade. Jon and/or Daenerys might. And that's why I think we should have one of them surviving the series. And while Dany doesn't get a resurrection/zombification of her own I prefer her to be the one.

Dynastic issues could be more complicated in the books in the end. I find it rather likely Aegon will father himself an heir who might live before his downfall - a child, that could be included in the new Targaryen dynasty, possibly as future spouse of the Dany-Jon love child, having the Second Dance end on a more positive note than the first. And if there is a miracle child we could also get a set of twins, resolving the issue of continuing the dynasty in the second generation after Dany-Jon the old-fashioned way. If George feels we need hints for that. I'd like some sort of real closure.

[Lord Varys]

54 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

But I still think they are both going to live. I think the whole point is that they live and Westeros has a nice long period of peace when it's all over. Doesnt it deserve that? FFS

See above. The idea to have a long period of peace and prosperity without a living and grown-up Targaryen monarch is not very convincing. In the books that's not likely going to work all that well.

If the story ended with some sort of regency solution then there would be no guarantee that the thing didn't end as horrible as the Regency of Aegon III which was an utter failure.

Things have to end more like they do in 48 AC when Jaehaerys I replaced Maegor the Cruel. With the feeling that things are going to get a lot better now, with young and capable monarchs giving the people peace and prosperity for a long time.

[Ser Wun Wun]

4 hours ago, Faint said:

Look, you do not have Daenerys say "I cannot have children," "I am barren," and "The dragons are the only children I will ever have" approximately 3,872 times without a baby.

This is Benioff and Weiss. This is what they do. 

Yes, but as I saw someone on Reddit point out, D&D also had 3 different characters bring up the possibly that Dany could get killed by an arrow in S7 (Missandei, Tyrion and Jorah).  That is how Ygritte died...

I'm thinking we will get a Dany death, then a resurrection (of her and the baby she is carrying; you're right about all the baby foreshadowing, she has to give birth).  That is why Mel is still being kept around imo (and possibly also Beric). Jorah could also factor into it with a kiss of life type deal, 'wake dragons from stone'.  Resurrection would be yet another parallel between Jon and Dany.   

Personally, I am also expecting a new Night King and Corpse Queen at the end of this series (meaning the WWs aren't completely defeated, just halted enough for humanity to regroup and prepare for the Long Night 2.0).  So the ending could basically be the dead led by 2 characters resurrected by ice magic (Jaime and Cersei imo), and the living led by two characters resurrected by fire (Jon and Dany).

How does the world end?  Some say in ice, some say in fire.  George has mentioned that poem inspiring the title of the story hasn't he?  Thematically, I think it all fits.     

[The Bard of Banefort]

Apologies if this has been mentioned already, but it occurred to me that there are hints in the books that weirwood arrows could kill dragons, so perhaps this will be how the White Walkers attack the dragons in the books, rather than using some sort of magical ice spear. 

[Newstar]

The multiple mentions of Dany getting hit by an arrow are troubling, given that the far greater and more obvious threat to Dany would be getting thrown off or crushed by an injured Drogon. In the DOTD, I think the riders died when they were thrown off or when their dragons crashed.

On the other hand, if Dany does get knocked up, it seems likely that she'll live long enough to carry the child to term, which means she's probably safe for Season 8 unless there's a time jump.

I don't think D&D hate SanSan so much as GRRM didn't tell them Sandor's endgame and/or told them that Sansa's endgame doesn't include Sandor, so they may have figured "Why bother?"

[Faint]

The last episode pretty much confirmed that Daenerys is immune up until she gives birth.

As for Sansa, as I noted before, they have at most four episodes of plot development before the big battle, so I doubt there is sufficient time to develop any romantic angle relating to her character.

I am more interested in how the Theon and Arya arc will play out. Does Theon hijack the Golden Company or does he just save his sister?

If you guys have read the spoilers you know that . . . 

Spoiler

Cersei was supposed to have a miscarriage in the last episode, which they took out for some reason.  Obviously she cannot give birth because of the prophecy, so it looks like they simple moved this to next season. 

Given that, I do think a marriage with Euron is in the cards, since Cersei has nothing left. 

There is also this from The Winds of Winter: 

Spoiler

The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the long-ships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed.