[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

[joaozinm]

35 minutes ago, Jô Maltese said:

In the books yes, definitely. in the show? I think they going for Arya with Jaime's face...

She needs Jaime to be dead to take his face doesnt she?

[Jô Maltese]

1 hour ago, joaozinm said:

She needs Jaime to be dead to take his face doesnt she?

Indeed.

 

[DMC]

On 4/19/2019 at 11:08 AM, Lord Varys said:

I mean, I could have told you how the series is going to end in broad strokes years ago. We did not need the show to confirm that Dany and Jon will hook up, did we? We also did not need the show to figure out that the Others will be defeated, that the Wall is likely to fall before that happens, or that (some of) the Stark children will regain Winterfell.

I think a game is not a very good comparison to a literature or movies/TV shows. Art has the potential to be enjoyed even if you know how it ends - just as some great sports games are, too, for some people at least. Even good detective stories have the potential for rereads because the interactions and hints dropped throughout the text make them intriguing even if you know who the culprit is. ASoIaF isn't a detective story but a much broader story.

Knowing who lives and who dies - even if true (which it might not be in all the cases; Doran Martell is not going to be killed by Ellaria Sand, for instance ;-)) - doesn't really spoil anything if the situation is completely different. Just take Stannis as an example. He is not going to fail and die in the ridiculous way we got in the show. But that he will fail and die we have known for a long time. He is not the hero of the story, after all.

This is an adorable rationalization.  It's like watching Rick Santorum on CNN and seeing how far he'll go to rationalize absolute bullshit.  Is there a vein of truth there?  Sure.  But for the most part it's just either covering their ass, denial, or both.

[Jô Maltese]

Does anybody think there is indeed something amiss with Tyrion? His legendary intelligence was questioned once or thrice last season and again during the first two episodes of season 8. Sansa saying something like "and I thought you were the cleverest man on earth", well he is, isn't he? So why those stupid strategic mistakes?

Also, twice now he had some long conversations with key characters, Cersei and Bran, conversations we know nothing about... He's onto something I think, and I am ready to bet he just secretly plays his own game to win the Iron Throne for himself in the end. And I believe he will.

Last, but not least, Arya telling Jon that Sansa is the "cleverest woman on Earth" draws a strange parallel with what Sansa said to Tyrion. As I keep saying here and there, those two are still husband and wife and have a genuine esteem for each other (and in the books Sansa does not marry Ramsay, but let's see what happens in the Vale), and who better to rule the 7K than the "cleverest couple on Earth"?

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, DMC said:

This is an adorable rationalization.  It's like watching Rick Santorum on CNN and seeing how far he'll go to rationalize absolute bullshit.  Is there a vein of truth there?  Sure.  But for the most part it's just either covering their ass, denial, or both.

The difference would be that you can actually go back and see me write stuff like that years before the show reached that point. Not to mention that there is nothing to rationalize here. Shit simply smells like shit. And gold doesn't.

 

[T and A]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The difference would be that you can actually go back and see me write stuff like that years before the show reached that point. Not to mention that there is nothing to rationalize here. Shit simply smells like shit. And gold doesn't.

 

Are you seerioously sugesting that we should concider your fanmade theories as proven facts and we don't need further information or aproval? Are you that blinded, that you actually think someone is actually taking serious what you, or any fan for that matter, have to say? If you are GRRM in disguise, then we are not aware of it. Otherwise, whatever you write or don't, doesn't matter, just as it doesn't matter what I have to say regarding some of my theories. Now, when the show does something, it means either they are inventing stuff that won't happen in the books, or that will. They decide. But the difference is, they know it better. Why? Because GRRM told them so. GRRM never told me anything. The showrunners definitively know where the story goes, as stated by GRRM and the showrunners. Since GRRM last interview we know at least that the ending and the fate of the main characters will be the same. For us, this is a fact. Everything you may have stated years before, is fanmade and not even remotely a source. To have a theory does not mean, that if said theory is right, the actual revelation is not relevant. So basically you are saying, it doesn't matter that the show showed it, because I told you so years ago. You don't have that authority. And even if you aticipated that outcome, it changes nothing.

So since R+L=J is a long known theory, we didn't need any prove? A very unique aproach I would say.

Are you calling your theories gold? Holly shit 

 

[Xemi]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The difference would be that you can actually go back and see me write stuff like that years before the show reached that point. Not to mention that there is nothing to rationalize here. Shit simply smells like shit. And gold doesn't.

 

Can you show us some of your posts predicting that Jon was going to be a trueborn Targaryen, that he was going to bang Daenerys, ride a dragon, become King in the North?

I'll be awaiting your proof anxiously.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

18 minutes ago, Xemi said:

Can you show us some of your posts predicting that Jon was going to be a trueborn Targaryen, that he was going to bang Daenerys, ride a dragon, become King in the North?

I'll be awaiting your proof anxiously.

lol

I can certainly testify that @Lord Varys and countless others have said exactly that for literally years and years. Like YEARS and YEARS bro.

Personally I have been shipping Jon and Dany since the day I got on this forum like forever ago, always knew he would ride a dragon, it's kind of obvious.

He is her 'Blue Flower growing in the Wall of Ice' (HOTU book 3).

 

 Yes yes yes we have all been saying this.

[T and A]

8 minutes ago, Xemi said:

Can you show us some of your posts predicting that Jon was going to be a trueborn Targaryen, that he was going to bang Daenerys, ride a dragon, become King in the North?

I'll be awaiting your proof anxiously.

Those theories are older than the internet, I am afraid. You will find them here from basically everyone. That Jon is a Targaryen is nothing that hited book readers (who participate in book forums) in the head. But that is not the point. Every bookseries, televison series, or movies have their fanbase who speculate, theorize and so on. Some theories are well developed and are probable and come to be true, some not. R+L=J is maybe 20 years old. 

The point is, that those are just theories. They are not facts. You can speculate until your dick falls off, it means shit until it is proven. With ASOIAF theories, we are in a new terrain, I would add. With the show being ahead of the books, we also now have to speculate which parts from the show are also going to happen in the books. That makes it quite difficult, knowing that after Season 4 the books and the series diverged quite strong. So, only because a fan theory is proven by the show, doesn't necessary mean that it will happen exactly like that in the books. But since the showrunners don't give a crap about bookfan theories (thankfully so), I would say that the odds of a fantheory coming true in the show and not in the books is equal to zero. If R+L=J happens in the show, it will happen in the books. Everything else is just being delusional. 

[Xemi]

Just now, Suzanna Stormborn said:

lol

I can certainly testify that @Lord Varys and countless others have said exactly that for literally years and years. Like YEARS and YEARS bro.

Personally I have been shipping Jon and Dany since the day I got on this forum like forever ago, always knew he would ride a dragon, it's kind of obvious.

He is her 'Blue Flower growing in the Wall of Ice' (HOTU book 3).

 

 Yes yes yes we have all been saying this.

Cool, then it'll be easy to find some old posts to verify it, won't it?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

2 minutes ago, Xemi said:

Cool, then it'll be easy to find some old posts to verify it, won't it?

absolutely!

If you want to see them I would suggest looking back through the last 30-50 RLJ threads on the book forum, you will see all of us posting there.

 

this is the current RLJ thread, in the OP there is links to all the older threads, have fun looking through them   You will learn a lot I can tell you that.

[Xemi]

Just now, Suzanna Stormborn said:

absolutely!

If you want to see them I would suggest looking back through the last 30-50 RLJ threads on the book forum, you will see all of us posting there.

 

this is the current RLJ thread, in the OP there is links to all the older threads, have fun looking through them   You will learn a lot I can tell you that.

Lol, if you think I'm looking through that you should think again. You're the ones claiming you predicted it years ago, so the burden of proof is on you. I'll wait here for you to show me the posts, thank you very much.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

6 minutes ago, Xemi said:

Lol, if you think I'm looking through that you should think again. You're the ones claiming you predicted it years ago, so the burden of proof is on you. I'll wait here for you to show me the posts, thank you very much.

Nah, I'm good on whether you believe us or not. not that important to me.

[T and A]

3 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Nah, I'm good on whether you believe us or not. not that important to me.

Don't feed the troll. He could have just used google.

[Xemi]

5 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Nah, I'm good on whether you believe us or not. not that important to me.

Oh look, let's look at a post from Lord Varys in 2015

Quote

 

For that to work the story has to develop a certain way.

First, the end of the Others plot has to lead to the dissolution of the Night's Watch - because the Wall is destroyed and effectively everybody in Westeros becomes a member of the order, fighting for his/her life, and when the crisis is resolved it is a final ending, and there is no need for a new Wall or a new Night's Watch. Else Jon Snow would be bound by oath and not particularly willing to claim a throne or a crown.

Second, he has to be formally adopted into the Targaryen family and become a dragonrider. Howland Reed finally telling some guys a tale isn't going to make him everybody's darling suddenly. Since pretty much everybody assumes his descent from Rhaegar makes him one of the three dragon heads, it is quite likely that he'll end up with a dragon - and it is already established how this could work considering that he and Tyrion have become friends back in AGoT.

But still, a member of House Targaryen - that is Daenerys - has to recognize him as her nephew, and formally acknowledge him as her kin. If that does not happen than nobody is going to believe that story regardless of what Howland Reed says. Nor is it very likely that he'd ever get a dragon if Dany or her people don't first believe that story. He may then either become her Heir Presumptive or her Prince Consort (or both) while Daenerys has no heirs of her own body (assuming she'll have children of her own). If Daenerys dies during the war he would then step in and take the throne. Or they may rule together if both of them survive the war.

 

For that to happen they have first to decide that the NW rules do no longer apply to anyone - which may happen if everyone is fighting for his life and the surviving Northmen/wildlings led by Jon are being pushed south by the advance of the Others.

 

I don't think there will a Great Council or any other sort of popularity vote naming Jon to be king simply because this will be a very anticlimactic end - we have just defeated the evil guys, and now we are calling everybody together to discuss legal claims and stuff? Not very likely. The game of thrones won't completely seize during the War for the Dawn, it will most likely simply take another form - the ultimate price will no longer be the Iron Throne but humanity's survival, and does trying to unite the survivors and lead the attack against the Others will have to win the game first, to have the necessary power to stage a counterattack.

 

This will most likely be done by the three dragon heads - Daenerys, Tyrion, and Jon Snow - and if all three of them survive we'll have Aegon and his sisters ruling the Realm together with reversed genders (Dany being a female Aegon, with Jon and Tyrion being the brother/nephew-consorts). If not, then either Dany, Jon, or Tyrion end up together or alone on the Iron Throne.

 

 

 

Considering the Rhaegar-Lyanna tragedy and Aegon's loss of his beloved Rhaenys my guess it may be Dany and Tyrion who remain, with Dany losing her beloved nephew (if she and Jon fall in love) simply because that would be a more tragic outcome.

 

Yeah clearly he predicted all that I mentioned... not.

That took 2 minutes with google, see, BS is easily discovered. And of course I don't believe you, I don't tend to believe random people on the internet that can't back up their claims.

 

 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/132692-can-jon-snow-become-king/&page=2

 

1 minute ago, T and A said:

Don't feed the troll. He could have just used google.

I already used google, and lo and behold, he didn't predict anything of the like. Troll? Lol. Coming from people that don't even understand how burden of proof works, that's pretty rich.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Dude, that post says exactly RLJ and dragonriding and Jon = Targaryen. Im done talking about this now.

[Xemi]

More great predictions from Lord Varys lmao.

Quote

Jon could only become king if any other Targaryen/Baratheon pretender is dead by then (i.e. Aegon, Dany, Tyrion, Stannis, Shireen, Tommen, Myrcella).

 

 

 

No one will support Jon's claim against those other claimants, nor is it likely that Jon (or the few guys who know for a certainty that he is Rhaegar's son) will be able to convince many people that Jon is Rhaegar's son, or that Rhaegar and Lyanna have been legally married. Jon may be a trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but this fact has to be legitimized/acknowledged by some authority before he can make a claim, let alone ascend the Iron Throne.

 

 

 

Releasing him and Sam from his vow should be more difficult than freeing other NW men, as they swore in front of a heart tree rather than in the sept, and I'm not sure how Bran could release Jon. He is just a greenseer, not one of the old gods (and I guess people may question whether it is right for Bran to release his half-brother - after all, he would be biased in his favor).

Quote

Tyrion has the advantage that he'll most likely become a dragonrider soon, and may eventually be legitimized by either Barristan Selmy, Dany, or his own authority. If he has his own dragon, he could easily become 'Tyrion Truefyre', or some other self-declared bastard-born pretender, following the example of Hard Hugh Hammer and Ulf the Sot.

 

 

 

Aegon has the advantage of looking Targaryen (which Jon does not), and he will declare himself at a time when people long for the return of a Targaryen monarch. Dragons aside, Aegon has the best chances, as he is neither female, nor a dwarf, nor a Stark-looking bastard of dubious heritage who is also a brother of the NW.

 

 

 

I believe that Jon will eventually learn the truth about his heritage (or deduce who he is), but this is only going to figure into the story if other make him legitimate/care to use his claims for their own ends.

 

 

How are those Tyrion = dragonrider theories working out now, mate?

[Xemi]

6 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Dude, that post says exactly RLJ and dragonriding and Jon = Targaryen. Im done talking about this now.

Lol, he's saying Jon has to become a dragonrider for Jon to become king, Jon becoming king is the premise of the thread, he's not predicting that he'll be a dragonrider, can you even read?

 

Then he's saying Jon is still bound by the NW oath, so much for predicting that he'll be free from it and become King in the North.

Where is he saying that Jon is a trueborn Targ BTW? I'm not asking for R+L=J, everyone has been on that theory for years, I'm asking for his prediction that Jon would be a trueborn Targ and not a bastard, as many believed. Well, where is it?

 

 

 

 

Quote

The only options I see for Jon to get close to the Iron Throne is

 

1. If he is chosen by a Great Council in the very end of the series, but this presupposes that the people speaking for him/pushing his claim know about his true heritage and believe in that.

 

 

 

2. He is recognized by another Targaryen claimant/pretender and sort of adopted into the family, as consort or heir. Then he could take over after that Targaryen dies.

 

 

 

3. He sort of climbs the ladder by being legitimized by a non-Targaryen king (Robb's will; Stannis), and ends up marrying Shireen, eventually claiming power as (widowed) Prince Consort. This is the least likeliest option, as Jon has already rejected that option.

 

 

Yeah, he totally believed that Jon would be King in the North... not.

[T and A]

10 minutes ago, Xemi said:

Oh look, let's look at a post from Lord Varys in 2015

Yeah clearly he predicted all that I mentioned... not.

That took 2 minutes with google, see, BS is easily discovered. And of course I don't believe you, I don't tend to believe random people on the internet that can't back up their claims.

 

 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/132692-can-jon-snow-become-king/&page=2

 

I already used google, and lo and behold, he didn't predict anything of the like. Troll? Lol. Coming from people that don't even understand how burden of proof works, that's pretty rich.

What do you want to be proven? R+L=J is older than this forum. We don't know who came up with the idea first. It dates back to at least 1997, so one year after AGOT came out. Probably more then one person. It is the most accepted theory in this book series. Are you seriously telling me, that you never heard this theory before? Here is one mention of R+L=J from a post from 1997 (Nr. 4). 

 

[Xemi]

Just now, T and A said:

What do you want to be proven? R+L=J is older than this forum. We don't know who came up with the idea first. It dates back to at least 1997, so one year after AGOT came out. Probably more then one person. It is the most accepted theory in this book series. Are you seriously telling me, that you never heard this theory before? Here is one mention of R+L=J from a post from 1997 (Nr. 4). 

 

Of course I know R+L=J has been around for a long time, but I'm not asking about that. maybe you should have read my questions carefully instead of getting emotional, hmm?

Quote

 

Can you show us some of your posts predicting that Jon was going to be a trueborn Targaryen, that he was going to bang Daenerys, ride a dragon, become King in the North?

I'll be awaiting your proof anxiously.

 

Nothing there about R+L=J, mate.