[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

[Jô Maltese]

Sansa and Tyrion... Looks like I still have a chance in my endgame bets...  And thanks God the leaks of Ep.3 have proved to be total BS.

[UnmaskedLurker]

11 hours ago, Jô Maltese said:

Sansa and Tyrion... Looks like I still have a chance in my endgame bets...  And thanks God the leaks of Ep.3 have proved to be total BS.

Yes, virtually every "leak" I thought seemed plausible about Ep3 proved to be false. The biggest issue is that I am fairly certain in the books that the big WW battle happens in KL (my recollection is that a famous vision in the books is of of snow falling at the Trident -- which seems to support that theory).

I foolishly thought that the show would stick to that plot point, so I kept trying to see how the battle at WF could happen in Ep.3 with enough characters surviving but without a decisive conclusion (the most plausible being that NK did a "fake out" sending much of his troops to WF while he went around to KL). Obviously, all of these "leaks" were wrong (bravo to the leakers). Given how tedious fighting the wights is (IMHO -- unlike most, I found this past episode not particularly interesting -- even though I did love the way that Arya stuck it to the NK), I am glad the show is done with the WW and wights.

As noted above, the books (if ever finished) are unlikely to finish off the WW at WF (I also think that the motivations of the WW in the books will be more subtle and interesting that the motive given to them on the show). Hopefully, GRRM eventually will figure out a way to focus his attention on the main series and get the final books done.

As to Sansa and Tyrion -- I still find it strange to imagine them together, but maybe (even their "moment" in the crypts seemed rather "forced" to me, but D&D certainly did not want the audience to perceive it as forced).

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I think we can safely say that this last season has zero to do with the books. absolutely nothing will be the same. NOTHING

[Jô Maltese]

NOTHING. Apart from Sansa and Tyrion ending up on the Throne

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I think we can safely say that this last season has zero to do with the books. absolutely nothing will be the same. NOTHING

I think certain things will be the same. Who lives and who dies in the end among the major 6-10 characters likely will be the same. Who ends up with whom and how the 7 kingdoms are ruled likely will be the same in the end. But just about everything else will be different.

[Jô Maltese]

I cant remember if the "you will close many eyes" was in the books? It would have been said by the Ghost of High Heart and not by Mel. I don't think Arya will win the day in the books, but I actually think this was well written. And the "not today" referring to Syrio Forell, I just loved it.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

1 hour ago, Jô Maltese said:

I cant remember if the "you will close many eyes" was in the books? It would have been said by the Ghost of High Heart and not by Mel. I don't think Arya will win the day in the books, but I actually think this was well written. And the "not today" referring to Syrio Forell, I just loved it.

Yes 'Not Today' and 'Stick em with the pointy end.' were wonderful welcome lines in the middle of that solid black/fog machine episode.

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Yes 'Not Today' and 'Stick em with the pointy end.' were wonderful welcome lines in the middle of that solid black/fog machine episode.

Mel and Arya were the best parts of the episode, but nevertheless, having Arya kill the NK, which my god, they admit they planned it for 3 years and yet, there is nothing in the show to support it,  and Jon and Dany as useless drives a stake through the heart of the series in terms of any meaning, coherence or theme.   They may as well have left Jon as Ned's bastard for all the importance his parentage turns out to have.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Mel and Arya were the best parts of the episode, but nevertheless, having Arya kill the NK, which my god, they admit they planned it for 3 years and yet, there is nothing in the show to support it,  and Jon and Dany as useless drives a stake through the heart of the series in terms of any meaning, coherence or theme.   They may as well have left Jon as Ned's bastard for all the importance his parentage turns out to have.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I think certain things will be the same. Who lives and who dies in the end among the major 6-10 characters likely will be the same. Who ends up with whom and how the 7 kingdoms are ruled likely will be the same in the end. But just about everything else will be different.

You think so? Right now, it really doesn't matter who lives or dies. I mean, seriously, who cares who gets kill by Cersei/Euron, Gregor, Qyburn, Bronn, or the Golden Company? This clearly has nothing to do with any plot to be expected in the books, nor is actually relevant who ends up ruling the Seven Kingdoms. It is just a stupid throne.

And on a personal level coherently written show characters should all get appropriate endings fitting their ages. The grown-up children can have sex and marry in the show, but characters like Arya and Bran are not likely to ever have proper romances or marriages in the books.

[UnmaskedLurker]

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You think so? Right now, it really doesn't matter who lives or dies. I mean, seriously, who cares who gets kill by Cersei/Euron, Gregor, Qyburn, Bronn, or the Golden Company? This clearly has nothing to do with any plot to be expected in the books, nor is actually relevant who ends up ruling the Seven Kingdoms. It is just a stupid throne.

And on a personal level coherently written show characters should all get appropriate endings fitting their ages. The grown-up children can have sex and marry in the show, but characters like Arya and Bran are not likely to ever have proper romances or marriages in the books.

By major 6-10 characters, I mean, Jon, Dany, Tyrion, the three Stark children, Cersei and Jaime (and maybe one or two others, but primarily those 8). I think which of these 8 lives or dies will be the same. I think that of the survivors, not only who they end up with romantically, but basically where they end up settling and in what position, will be the same.

Whether any of that matters is quite subjective. I think that D&D think it matters. I think that when D&D met with GRRM, and he outlined the ending of the series for them, this information was included, and D&D consider this information to be central to the resolution of the series (like in Cinderella, the ending basically no matter what else happens in a particular version of the story is that the Prince finds Cinderella and takes her away from her step-mother and step-sisters and marries her).

I am not asserting one way or the other whether any of these resolutions matter -- I am simply making a prediction regarding what I think D&D will keep the same and what they won't bother worrying about being consistent with the books. Of course, I acknowledge there might be some deviations even in these matters (such as maybe Arya goes with Gendry on the show but not the books), but for the most part, I think D&D want to keep to the ending they have been planning since after they met with GRRM to find out how the books are intended to be resolved.

[Lord Varys]

@UnmaskedLurker

You honestly think they care about George's story? Really?

I'm actually baffled by that. Sure, if they want to have a character to survive George also wanted to allow to live they might keep that person alive, but if they want somebody dead or think it would be a great scene to kill them in a certain way they will do that, too. These people are not beholden to George and they clearly don't care about his story.

Don't think Sansa/Arya/Bran can even remotely end up in the same positions as in the books. The children there are too young, and the actors are too old. Even if Sansa ended up as Lady of Winterfell she would need a regent in the books whereas that's clearly not the case in the show. The same would, of course, also go for Bran.

And, frankly, there is no way another pointless Dany vs. Cersei fight is going to matter.

[UnmaskedLurker]

@Lord Varys--

I think that D&D think they care about Martin's book. I think that they did what they think was their best given the differences in the nature of the media and the lack of the final two (or more) books to fill in the blanks on how to get from point A to Z (much of which Martin has not yet decided). I agree that some of the narrative choices were made because of their perception of the strengths of certain actors and the lack of figuring out how to work in the mysticism and logical story telling in favor of big action and shock value.

But with all that at issue -- I think that they THINK they are honoring Martin's story and telling it as closely as they can. You and I might disagree with whether they actually are doing such a thing, but the point is what they seem to think. For example, in one of the inside looks Benioff indicated that only a Targ can ride a dragon. That statement is ridiculous for purposes of the show -- but he seems to think he is being true to the source material in this respect (even though we think he is not).

So trying to think like I suspect they think, I believe they will try to keep the ending (as I have defined the ending, which is how I think they define the ending) more or less the same because in their minds, that is the core of what it means to tell Martin's story.

[Cas Stark]

35 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

@Lord Varys--

I think that D&D think they care about Martin's book. I think that they did what they think was their best given the differences in the nature of the media and the lack of the final two (or more) books to fill in the blanks on how to get from point A to Z (much of which Martin has not yet decided). I agree that some of the narrative choices were made because of their perception of the strengths of certain actors and the lack of figuring out how to work in the mysticism and logical story telling in favor of big action and shock value.

But with all that at issue -- I think that they THINK they are honoring Martin's story and telling it as closely as they can. You and I might disagree with whether they actually are doing such a thing, but the point is what they seem to think. For example, in one of the inside looks Benioff indicated that only a Targ can ride a dragon. That statement is ridiculous for purposes of the show -- but he seems to think he is being true to the source material in this respect (even though we think he is not).

So trying to think like I suspect they think, I believe they will try to keep the ending (as I have defined the ending, which is how I think they define the ending) more or less the same because in their minds, that is the core of what it means to tell Martin's story.

Maybe.  But they just gutted a huge portion of the story, all the prophecies, whatever is the back story on the Others/White Walkers...what do they want, why the designs, why now? The last ep made them more flat than the worst Marvel villain, a generic big bad who is bad because they are bad and then, poof, they're dead by a hero.  All of the foreshadowing of Jon's heritage being important, I mean, why exactly did Bran demand that Jon be told Right Now?  What is even the point in the show of Jon's background, no one in the South will accept him as King on the word of his batty brother and some random papers from the Citadel.  Mel and her seasons of lightbringer, AA, and none of this matters, at all.  

So, having rendered large portions of the story already pointless, its going to be hard for me to see how they rebound in the last 3 episodes and the show with anything approaching a theme or having any meaning at all, let alone whatever message the author may have intended.

[teej6]

22 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

@Lord Varys--

I think that D&D think they care about Martin's book. I think that they did what they think was their best given the differences in the nature of the media and the lack of the final two (or more) books to fill in the blanks on how to get from point A to Z (much of which Martin has not yet decided). I agree that some of the narrative choices were made because of their perception of the strengths of certain actors and the lack of figuring out how to work in the mysticism and logical story telling in favor of big action and shock value.

But with all that at issue -- I think that they THINK they are honoring Martin's story and telling it as closely as they can. You and I might disagree with whether they actually are doing such a thing, but the point is what they seem to think. For example, in one of the inside looks Benioff indicated that only a Targ can ride a dragon. That statement is ridiculous for purposes of the show -- but he seems to think he is being true to the source material in this respect (even though we think he is not).

So trying to think like I suspect they think, I believe they will try to keep the ending (as I have defined the ending, which is how I think they define the ending) more or less the same because in their minds, that is the core of what it means to tell Martin's story.

Well one thing is for sure, whatever their third WTF moment is, that’s from GRRM. That much is confirmed. Arya killing the NK is not it, because of course there’s no NK in the books. Yet, she may still have an integral part in defeating the WWs, and it will be LS whose purpose in being resurrected is to save/protect Arya, not Dondarrion. 

I sort of agree with you that who ends up on the IT, who lives/dies among the main characters and where and with whom they ultimately end up will be pretty much the same in the books and show. If GRRM has given them this outline (which he said he has), they’ll stick with it. D&D were never fully invested in the WW and mythical elements of the story and that’s why they made such a mess of Bran’s arc. They mostly only cared about the political drama surrounding the IT and I believe they’ll stick to GRRM’s ending with regards to it. 

[Lord Varys]

38 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

@Lord Varys--

I think that D&D think they care about Martin's book.

And you base that on what? The way they adapt said books? Because you have talked to them. I mean, seriously - all I can see is people butchering the story, not faithfully adapting them. And they are not exactly lackwits living on another planet. Other people would telling them that what they are doing is not a faithful adaptation. They tell their story now, which is basically equivalent to a six-year-old trying to retell ASoIaF.

13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

So, having rendered large portions of the story already pointless, its going to be hard for me to see how they rebound in the last 3 episodes and the show with anything approaching a theme or having any meaning at all, let alone whatever message the author may have intended.

Prophecy was never a relevant part of the show.

10 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Well one thing is for sure, whatever their third WTF moment is, that’s from GRRM. That much is confirmed. Arya killing the NK is not it, because of course there’s no NK in the books. Yet, she may still have an integral part in defeating the WWs, and it will be LS whose purpose in being resurrected is to save/protect Arya, not Dondarrion. 

Sounds like you are really grasping at straws to make something work that clearly doesn't.

10 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I sort of agree with you that who ends up on the IT, who lives/dies among the main characters and where and with whom they ultimately end up will be pretty much the same in the books and show. If GRRM has given them this outline (which he said he has), they’ll stick with it. D&D were never fully invested in the WW and mythical elements of the story and that’s why they made such a mess of Bran’s arc. They mostly only cared about the political drama surrounding the IT and I believe they’ll stick to GRRM’s ending with regards to it. 

But what about Bran, then? Surely his part in the story is already over. He was a useless character since he left the cave, basically nothing but a half-mute cripple in a wheelchair. He is not going to play a part in the war against Cersei.

Do we actually assume where Bran is right now will be where he will be later? Do we assume Sansa will end up as Lady of Winterfell? Which is what she will be if she does not die.

[teej6]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sounds like you are really grasping at straws to make something work that clearly doesn't.

But what about Bran, then? Surely his part in the story is already over. He was a useless character since he left the cave, basically nothing but a half-mute cripple in a wheelchair. He is not going to play a part in the war against Cersei.

Do we actually assume where Bran is right now will be where he will be later? Do we assume Sansa will end up as Lady of Winterfell? Which is what she will be if she does not die.

FYI, I hate the show. And I’m not grasping at straws. D&D literally said that GRRM told them three things that were WTF moments, the first being Hodor’s hold the door scene, the second being the shireen burning, and the third being something in the end that hasn’t happened. Of course, as we saw from the Hodor and Shireen burning scenes, the execution of these moments will be very different in the show and the books but the concept is the same.

If you took the trouble to read my post, you’d see I stated they mucked up Bran’s storyline cause they had no idea how to place him in the story they were interested in telling. Bran’s whole arc (which I’ve seen you trivialize) is about defeating the WWs and directing the other central actors to this end. 

As for Sansa, no I don’t think she’ll become Lady of WF. I do think, however, she will influence the happenings in the Vale and the North and may even end up ruling the Vale. Like I said, GRRM has given them the outline of the central character’s (whoever that is in GRRM’s mind) story arc and I don’t think they will alter it much because they don’t have the skills for it. He’s also told them the ending, which I assume is the resolution to the IT storyline. If they decide to change the ending (which I don’t think they will), it will be to the detriment of the characters they dislike, which IMO is definitely Jon. So that should make you happy.

[UnmaskedLurker]

@Cas Stark--

I basically agree with your criticism of the show.  My posts on this topic regarding the similarities in the endings between the show and the books are not intended as a defense of D&D at all -- just a prediction of what I think they intend to do and think they are doing.

I hate that they made a travesty of the prophecies and basically eliminated all of the magical mysticism from the show. I hate that all logic has been stripped from the show. I have enjoyed parts of the show in prior seasons, but so far this season has been an abject failure (IMHO). I hope the final three episodes are more entertaining (even if it is too late to be logical or coherent).

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, teej6 said:

FYI, I hate the show. And I’m not grasping at straws. D&D literally said that GRRM told them three things that were WTF moments, the first being Hodor’s hold the door scene, the second being the shireen burning, and the third being something in the end that hasn’t happened. Of course, as we saw from the Hodor and Shireen burning scenes, the execution of these moments will be very different in the show and the books but the concept is the same.

Well, perhaps it was the cool dragon battle in the snowstorm? That looked pretty great, didn't it ;-)?

3 minutes ago, teej6 said:

If you took the trouble to read my post, you’d see I stated they mucked up Bran’s storyline cause they had no idea how to place him in the story they were interested in telling. Bran’s whole arc (which I’ve seen you trivialize) is about defeating the WWs and directing the other central actors to this end. 

I read what you said, I pointed that Bran's story should essentially be over already. The idea that his story is somehow specially fucked up because of the supernatural stuff, etc. is, in my opinion, an ad hoc explanation. After all, the Others were in the story, there was opportunity to include Bran there. This had nothing to do with the plot he was connected to, more with how they decided to portray the character.

3 minutes ago, teej6 said:

As for Sansa, no I don’t think she’ll become Lady of WF. I do think, however, she will influence the happenings in the Vale and the North and may even end up ruling the Vale. Like I said, GRRM has given them the outline of the central character’s (whoever that is in GRRM’s mind) story arc and I don’t think they will alter it much because they don’t have the skills for it. He’s also told them the ending, which I assume is the resolution to the IT storyline. If they decide to change the ending (which I don’t think they will), it will be to the detriment of the characters they dislike, which IMO is definitely Jon. So that should make you happy.

Oh, well, if Rickon gets crushed like a bug then Sansa will get Winterfell in the books. Do we think Rickon is going to be crushed like a bug? I don't know.

I know George talked to them about his plans, but everything we got up to this point implies they only used them as loose inspirations rather than sacrosanct gospel. They have their own ideas, and assuming they are ever in doubt and not immediately going with their own ideas - which I, of course, would also do in their position because George sold the rights and they can do whatever the hell they want - then chances are very low that they would go with some notes they got from George. I mean, why not think it through again and get a better idea yourself? This is their show, not George's.

As for them disliking characters: They don't give a damn about 'characters'. They show off actors they like, they don't write characters or anything. Kit Harrington plays himself like pretty much any other character in the show. There is no 'Jon Snow' there, nothing to dislike. And Kit they seem to really like considering the great action scenes he gets. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

@Lord Varys--

I know that you think that D&D have consciously decided to dump all of Martin's notes. I simply disagree. I think that whenever they are interviewed,they suggest that they are sticking to Martin to the extent they can.

Regarding the ending, they stated years ago that the ending told to them by Martin was both "bittersweet" and "satisfying" -- I believe they intend to stick to their idea of what that ending can be in this medium.

I totally get your point -- I just think in some sense you give D&D too much credit -- you think they perceive the situation as we do (regarding their departure from the source). I think they have convinced themselves they have stuck to the source as much as they can and intend to tell the "same story" as Martin (as delusional as that perception might be).