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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

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15 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I also dont think all the direwolves will die either, Nor will the Red Priests all over the world lose their magic.

I dont see the point of these novels if Westeros does not have some semblance of normalcy and peace at the end. After the White Walkers are defeated, some stable people need to be ruling the kingdom, with children on the way that is the only way a peaceful future will be accomplished.  if Jon and Dany are not said rulers or if they cant have a kid, then we end the novels right where they started, with a rebellion and constant battle for the Throne. In a medieval society the monarchs must be able to have children or else they end and chaos ensues.

One alternative to Jon and Dany is Tyrion and Sansa: when all magic have disappeared, the kingdom will be better ruled with non-magical political masters.

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17 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I also dont think all the direwolves will die either, Nor will the Red Priests all over the world lose their magic.

I dont see the point of these novels if Westeros does not have some semblance of normalcy and peace at the end. After the White Walkers are defeated, some stable people need to be ruling the kingdom, with children on the way that is the only way a peaceful future will be accomplished.  if Jon and Dany are not said rulers or if they cant have a kid, then we end the novels right where they started, with a rebellion and constant battle for the Throne. In a medieval society the monarchs must be able to have children or else they end and chaos ensues.

Well, direwolves are important mainly Nymeria ane her pack, Ghost for Jon's second life but their level of importance for the war of dawn is nowhere near dragons. Magic will get weaker or disappear for the time being. Dragons are a special case because it truly seems their purpose is solely the White Walkers.

People will get back to killing, plotting and stabbing each other in the back. That's the cyrcle of live in Seven KIngdoms.

Dany goes on about to rule every season, same as being barren and something tells me neither of those will happen. Could be wrong onthis but it seems like Mad Queen scenario for her, Not gonna happen. They need a stable ruler but this scenario of both Jon, Dany, their kid, Tyrion, dragons is just too one sided. Only death pay for life. These two mirror Rhaegar and Lyanna, so not gonna be surprised if they ended up same way. Passionate love, having a kid and saving the world unlike Rhaegar and Lyanna where their love almost destroyed it, but then Jon was at least something positive from it. So it might be 50/50 there.

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5 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Well, direwolves are important mainly Nymeria ane her pack, Ghost for Jon's second life but their level of importance for the war of dawn is nowhere near dragons. Magic will get weaker or disappear for the time being. Dragons are a special case because it truly seems their purpose is solely the White Walkers.

People will get back to killing, plotting and stabbing each other in the back. That's the cyrcle of live in Seven KIngdoms.

Dany goes on about to rule every season, same as being barren and something tells me neither of those will happen. Could be wrong onthis but it seems like Mad Queen scenario for her, Not gonna happen. They need a stable ruler but this scenario of both Jon, Dany, their kid, Tyrion, dragons is just too one sided. Only death pay for life. These two mirror Rhaegar and Lyanna, so not gonna be surprised if they ended up same way. Passionate love, having a kid and saving the world unlike Rhaegar and Lyanna where their love almost destroyed it, but then Jon was at least something positive from it. So it might be 50/50 there.

What do you mean 'too one sided'?

You mean like on this forum, the Targaryen camp will get everything they want? I do not believe for a second that GRRM thinks about things that way when he is writing, which fandoms he is appeasing cannot be a consideration for him.

Ive said the same thing since I started reading the novels, they are about this dynasty falling due to some bad apples then coming back to power due to good apples (Jon and Dany)  with the help of the Starks.

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Some questions have been asked above in this thread recently about whether Jaime survives his apparent drowning and whether any dragons die. Well, the leaks actually have some answers, so for those who really want to know, I will put information in a spoiler box below:

First, I want to clarify that the spoilers have been quite reliable to date -- essentially everything stated in the leak as happening up to this point has happened on the show -- and these leaks came out well before the first episode aired. So for those who say we cannot be sure the leaks are accurate -- of course the later leaks might be wrong, but I doubt it based on how detailed and accurate the leaks have been.

Now on to the actual spoilers. Yes, Jaime survives at least to the end of this season. He actually has a secret meeting with Tyrion in KL in which Tyrion tries to get Jaime to get on board the "Dany train" -- I don't think it goes very well. As for the dragons -- well unfortunately Viserion is killed by the NK when Dany and Jon go North of the Wall on a "wight hunt" to try to bring a wright back South to demonstrate the danger.  The NK raises the corpse of Viserion as a dragon-wight to serve as the NK's mount. I am a bit bummed about this development, as I wanted the dragons to survive, but I understand why they decided to have this plot development -- less sure whether it happens in the books the same way.

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13 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Some questions have been asked above in this thread recently about whether Jaime survives his apparent drowning and whether any dragons die. Well, the leaks actually have some answers, so for those who really want to know, I will put information in a spoiler box below:

 

  Hide contents

First, I want to clarify that the spoilers have been quite reliable to date -- essentially everything stated in the leak as happening up to this point has happened on the show -- and these leaks came out well before the first episode aired. So for those who say we cannot be sure the leaks are accurate -- of course the later leaks might be wrong, but I doubt it based on how detailed and accurate the leaks have been.

Now on to the actual spoilers. Yes, Jaime survives at least to the end of this season. He actually has a secret meeting with Tyrion in KL in which Tyrion tries to get Jaime to get on board the "Dany train" -- I don't think it goes very well. As for the dragons -- well unfortunately Viserion is killed by the NK when Dany and Jon go North of the Wall on a "wight hunt" to try to bring a wright back South to demonstrate the danger.  The NK raises the corpse of Viserion as a dragon-wight to serve as the NK's mount. I am a bit bummed about this development, as I wanted the dragons to survive, but I understand why they decided to have this plot development -- less sure whether it happens in the books the same way.

 

 

well as long as Cersei doesnt kill one with her LOTR arrows I can deal with it. I dont think that will happen in the books, much more likely that Euron steals a dragon than the NK gets one. WoW does have the dragon horn on the cover after all.

 

How in the blue fuck will D&D make the TYrion/Jaime meeting believable?

Jaime somehow gets out of the water and does not get captured by Dany?

And Tyrion sneaks into KL for a meeting? no way

Edited by Suzanna Stormborn

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Did anyone really think Jamie and/or Bronn were dead?  I can already visualize them washing up on a far shore....far away from the giant horde of Dothraki, because: creatively they wanted it to happen that way.

 

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15 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Did anyone really think Jamie and/or Bronn were dead?  I can already visualize them washing up on a far shore....far away from the giant horde of Dothraki, because: creatively they wanted it to happen that way.

 

LOL I definitely didnt think they were dead, but in reality and the reality of gravity means Jaime was going straight down, 5 ft from Dany, with all that armor on there is no 'washing up' there is only sinking. So if he does end up somewhere else then it just adds to the stupidity of D&D.

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I guess you could rationalize it that it's a fast moving river current, out in Utah  the Reach......

Ha! Yeah but re-watch the scene, it's clearly a lake, a very deep lake with no current. He appears to falling straight down, like 20+ yards.

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10 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

LOL I definitely didnt think they were dead, but in reality and the reality of gravity means Jaime was going straight down, 5 ft from Dany, with all that armor on there is no 'washing up' there is only sinking. So if he does end up somewhere else then it just adds to the stupidity of D&D.

Now you know that's definitely going to happen.

Like how the body of water all of a sudden got magically deep just so D&D could have that final shot.

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3 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Ha! Yeah but re-watch the scene, it's clearly a lake, a very deep lake with no current. He appears to falling straight down, like 20+ yards.

LOL, but really isn't that a nitpick at this point when we just saw the loot train which is stretching all the way from King's Landing to Utah....which is guarded by soldiers and scouts.....  And yet Dany is able to ferry her entire Dothraki horde and all their horses down to Utah....and no one notices them until they arrive fpr battle.

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8 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Now you know that's definitely going to happen.

Like how the body of water all of a sudden got magically deep just so D&D could have that final shot.

Jesus H. I mean I dont think getting a good shot is worth bending the laws of physics and gravity.

Did you guys notice that when Euron's ship attacked Yara's...OK she is below deck hitting on Ellaria and the whole boat shakes, like they got rammed. Then they go above decks and see Euron's ship approaching (meaning it actually hadn't rammed them yet) so wtf caused that giant shake when they were below decks?

 

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

LOL, but really isn't that a nitpick at this point when we just saw the loot train which is stretching all the way from King's Landing to Utah....which is guarded by soldiers and scouts.....  And yet Dany is able to ferry her entire Dothraki horde and all their horses down to Utah....and no one notices them until they arrive fpr battle.

Oh i know, I was like since when does the outskirts of KL have giant Mid-west rock plateau's? It looked like they shot in the exact same location as where Dany got picked up by the swarming Dothraki after walking away from Drogon outside of Mereen.

 

But yeah that Utah backdrop was beyond stupid, it's the fucking 'River'Lands guys, hello!!

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So, back to theories:

House Tyrell goes extinct.  Sam's father and brother are killed.  I guess he will become Lord of Hornhill after all w/his valyrian sword and wildling inbred wife.  

I am really on the fence with who is going to kill Cersei, if it will be Jamie as I thought all along or if the show is prepping us for Mystique Stark to steal a face and kill her, like others have predicted from the books.

 

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40 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

So, back to theories:

House Tyrell goes extinct.  Sam's father and brother are killed.  I guess he will become Lord of Hornhill after all w/his valyrian sword and wildling inbred wife.  

I am really on the fence with who is going to kill Cersei, if it will be Jamie as I thought all along or if the show is prepping us for Mystique Stark to steal a face and kill her, like others have predicted from the books.

 

Well the NW will be gone, so I guess Sam will be out of his vows and can be lord of hornhill. Not sure I care.

As to who will kill Cersei -- Arya has said too many times she is going to kill Cersei for Arya to be the one to kill Cersei. But maybe if she kills Jaime off screen -- not letting the audience know that happened yet -- she steals his face and the audience thinks it is Jaime killing Cersei -- then magic presto, after killing Cersei, Arya pulls off the face -- shrinks about a foot or so -- and we see it was really Arya who killed Cersei. Maybe -- but my bet is still on Jaime -- the real Jaime.

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21 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Well the NW will be gone, so I guess Sam will be out of his vows and can be lord of hornhill. Not sure I care.

As to who will kill Cersei -- Arya has said too many times she is going to kill Cersei for Arya to be the one to kill Cersei. But maybe if she kills Jaime off screen -- not letting the audience know that happened yet -- she steals his face and the audience thinks it is Jaime killing Cersei -- then magic presto, after killing Cersei, Arya pulls off the face -- shrinks about a foot or so -- and we see it was really Arya who killed Cersei. Maybe -- but my bet is still on Jaime -- the real Jaime.

Usually in the show, when people repeat something several times, or it comes up several times, that means it's going to happen.  People started talking about greyscale, boom, Jorah got it.  Brienne talked about killing Stannis, boom, she did.  So, now I think that since Arya killing Cersei has been brought up now several times, she will kill her.  Just like once they added Walder Frey to her list...you knew she would kill him.  I don't know at this point if the show is fan servicey enough to have Arya kill her when in the book Jamie does it.

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^^Good point - in some respects D&D have become the anti-GRRM. And given that the valonqar part of the prophecy was cut out on the show, it makes more sense that D&D decided to have Arya kill Cersei even though I still strongly suspect that Jaime kills her in the books.

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I'm still unsure about who kills Cercei. The show left out the "valonqar" part of the prophecy, right? Maybe it ends up being Arya since the show mentions that so much or it could still end up being Jaime as that would certainly be more shocking since he is still very much Cersei's lapdog. Think Arya might end up killing LF with his own blade.

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She is definitely going to kill LF with that dagger, that is obvious even without the leaks.

I would lean toward whoever kills cersei in the book that hasnt been written it will be the same in the show, especially since Lena has been built up to now be a more major character than any of the Starks.  But Arya killing her...using Jamie's face or some BS...that seems so lame to me, I can't imagine GRRM would have it happen.  I guess that would be a twist on the valonquar...it is your little brother...sort of...but its not, really Arya?  Seems stupid to me, though. But the show seems to be telegraphing this exact event.

Edited by Cas Stark

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Yeah, if Arya kills Cersei wearing Jaime's face in the show then I'm not sure how this could possibly work out the same way in the books as well. The FM face changing is completely different in the show compared to the books.

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13 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Yeah, if Arya kills Cersei wearing Jaime's face in the show then I'm not sure how this could possibly work out the same way in the books as well. The FM face changing is completely different in the show compared to the books.

Yeah, I'm somewhat mystified by this "foreshadowing" in the show and what it means for the books.  But, a minority of book readers have also thought Arya would kill Cersei or eventually get someone big who is still on her list.  .   I clearly don't think she will kill LF in the books or probably have Bran/Arya/Sansa rattling around Winterfell for this long. But, I just don't know anymore.

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