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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

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38 minutes ago, Faint said:

As for Sansa, as I noted before, they have at most four episodes of plot development before the big battle, so I doubt there is sufficient time to develop any romantic angle relating to her character.

I am more interested in how the Theon and Arya arc will play out. Does Theon hijack the Golden Company or does he just save his sister?

Given that, I do think a marriage with Euron is in the cards, since Cersei has nothing left. 

Sansa ships: Jon/Dany went from sniping to heart eyes in four episodes. To be fair, though, neither went through what Sansa went through with Ramsay--Michele Clapton even indicated that Sansa's costuming in S7 reflected the fact that she was trying to ensure that no one could touch her--so there's that. It would be unrealistic for Sansa to go from traumatized rape survivor physically closing herself off from others to single and ready to mingle, let alone deeply in love and willing to be vulnerable, over the space of a few episodes. Going strictly off S7, I'd be surprised if Sansa wound up with anyone; her destiny seems to be to be the single Lady of Winterfell. With all that said, you never know with D&D.

Theon vs. Euron: Theon thinks Euron is heading back to Pyke, though. Will he miss Euron altogether or get better information to intercept Euron when he comes back from Essos? And if he does manage to defeat Euron, what will happen with the Golden Company?

Euron/Cersei: I had been assuming that Euron betrays Cersei using the GC and Cersei flees to Casterly Rock, where some combination of Jaime/Brienne/Tyrion/Sandor/Sansa/Arya have a final confrontation with her. Then we have our Scouring of the Shire bit where whoever's left over from the war against the WWs evicts Euron from KL.

Edited by Newstar

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Just now, Newstar said:

Euron/Cersei: I had been assuming that Euron betrays Cersei using the GC and Cersei flees to Casterly Rock, where some combination of Jaime/Brienne/Tyrion/Sandor/Sansa/Arya have a final confrontation with her. Then we have our Scouring of the Shire bit where whoever's left over from the war against the WWs evicts Euron from KL.

I am really tied to the theory that Cersei sets King's Landing on fire before Jaime puts her out of her misery (and perhaps she to him as well). That brings everything full circle, which is Martin's proclivity. 

This would happen after the Others are defeated and Daenerys's army is marching on King's Landing, so the beginning of episode six. 

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17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think death and resurrection will impact his mind much more than his body - although the latter is going to keep the wounds and scars, of course. And the strain on his mind will draw him ever more away from the mundane world and humanity. He'll fulfill his mission, and he may even rediscover his humanity and joy and passion with Daenerys - but even that is likely going to be double-edged sword. Fire consumes, and if there is a fire that's going to burn hot in this series it will be the passion between Daenerys Targaryen and Jon Snow. It might very well be what warms mankind during the Long Night. But when it is over there might be nothing left.

Dany could be consumed by that, too, of course, but Jon is the guy who is really likely to volunteer to lay down his life to defeat the Others. That's his entire mission.

Definitely agree it will affect his mind much more than his body and draw him away from humanity.  That seemed to be the case with Beric.  But I think it's possible that, as you say, the "price" of Jon's resurrection is not necessarily death.  He is indeed the one more likely - perhaps even eager - to sacrifice himself for the greater good or simply for Dany.  And that would suggest the "price" may well be living and ruling after that fire goes out, in the reluctant ruler frame FNR proposes.

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But then he would basically the king himself, with Dany-Jon's child only being his heir. That could work. The new regime must have teeth. I mean, the fight against the Others will lead to a huge a bloodletting in Westeros and the known world, and with that comes opportunity. In the realistic setting of the series the rebuilding era should be infinitely more interesting than the pre-Long Night era since social mobility and thus opportunity social-climbing and power-grabbing should be so much greater than ever before. If entire regions are depopulated and entire noble lines extinguished many people will want to move and secure all those assets. This is not going to be a time of peace and quiet.

Well, yes, I think Tyrion being a part of such a rebuilding phase would be indispensable for precisely the reasons you mention.  However...

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If the books ended with him in charge I'd not close the book confident with the thought that he lasted for more than a decade. Jon and/or Daenerys might. And that's why I think we should have one of them surviving the series. And while Dany doesn't get a resurrection/zombification of her own I prefer her to be the one.

For me, I just don't find it realistic that the world will have changed enough to accept Tyrion as (at least functionally) the king.  I apologize for not providing a more arguable basis for my stance here, it's just how I feel.  So, yes, I agree that at least one of Jon and Dany should live in order to ensure a stable regime and succession.  But I also think it's essential at least one of them should die.  Thus...full circle!

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dynastic issues could be more complicated in the books in the end. I find it rather likely Aegon will father himself an heir who might live before his downfall - a child, that could be included in the new Targaryen dynasty, possibly as future spouse of the Dany-Jon love child, having the Second Dance end on a more positive note than the first. And if there is a miracle child we could also get a set of twins, resolving the issue of continuing the dynasty in the second generation after Dany-Jon the old-fashioned way. If George feels we need hints for that. I'd like some sort of real closure.

Yeah I'd say at this juncture an Aegon (perhaps Aegon-Arianne) child is much more likely than a Dany-Jon child.  And I'd like some closure as well.  He's always said he was interested in "well, how did Aragorn preserve peace and prosperity" IRT the end of LOTR, so I'm quite expecting it.

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4 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Definitely agree it will affect his mind much more than his body and draw him away from humanity.  That seemed to be the case with Beric. But I think it's possible that, as you say, the "price" of Jon's resurrection is not necessarily death.  He is indeed the one more likely - perhaps even eager - to sacrifice himself for the greater good or simply for Dany.  And that would suggest the "price" may well be living and ruling after that fire goes out, in the reluctant ruler frame FNR proposes.

Well, I don't really see a person with Jon's ridiculous fairy-tale parentage and biography - dying and living again, fighting against the Apocalypse, etc. - would be particularly inclined to solemnly count coppers. I mean, how could such a life be alluring to him? What could possibly convince him to do that - even more so if his beloved is gone now.

In addition, he is about as well prepared to sit a real throne as Robert Baratheon was. Nobody groomed him for a crown, and waging and winning a war for the survival of mankind isn't the same as excelling at mundane politics. How bad Dany might be at that she is infinitely better than Jon at that kind of thing simply because she actually dealt with a large court and ruled a vast city.

And it is not that I think that his sacrifice is necessarily going to be him going down/out with boom. Rather that the whole resurrection thing is just the beginning of his journey into the magical/divine savior sphere that's going to make him larger-than-life but also a figure that is not going to be destined to live and breathe the same air as mortal men after all is said and done.

I don't think that there is a West Jon could go to in the end - he would have to die. But even if he survived somehow I can't see him returning to civilization under such circumstances. He could remain in the far north or leave Westeros on his dragon never to return.

4 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Well, yes, I think Tyrion being a part of such a rebuilding phase would be indispensable for precisely the reasons you mention.  However...

For me, I just don't find it realistic that the world will have changed enough to accept Tyrion as (at least functionally) the king.  I apologize for not providing a more arguable basis for my stance here, it's just how I feel.  So, yes, I agree that at least one of Jon and Dany should live in order to ensure a stable regime and succession.  But I also think it's essential at least one of them should die.  Thus...full circle!

Yeah, I'd prefer that, too. However, Tyrion is very much a mystery as to his development as a dragonrider and a Targaryen. He could play a crucial role during the War for the Dawn and thus end up being as prominent and powerful as a person as Daenerys herself. If he wasn't Tywin's son he wouldn't be really a kinslayer and the truth about Joffrey's murder might eventually come out in the books, too. If the Lannisters were cut down in size during the wars Tyrion should stand as good a chance as ending up in charge of things as Jon might. I mean, people at least know who Tyrion Lannister is right now. Pretty much no one cares about Jon Snow as of yet.

4 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah I'd say at this juncture an Aegon (perhaps Aegon-Arianne) child is much more likely than a Dany-Jon child.  And I'd like some closure as well.  He's always said he was interested in "well, how did Aragorn preserve peace and prosperity" IRT the end of LOTR, so I'm quite expecting it.

Dany should a very strong incentive to ensure that a child of Aegon's survives considering that she believes she is barren. Such a child could be named her heir presumptive until such a time as she has her miracle child. And it sure as hell could help clean up the mess after the Second Dance rather than set the stages for Aegon's friends and followers striking back at Dany's heirs ten or twenty years down the line as the Martells plotted to do in the wake of Robert's Rebellion.

Thinking about this closure thing - if the Dany-Jon child is truly going to be another major miracle then she surviving the story would make more sense than to have Jon survive and eventually remarry. I mean, if he and Dany have a child and then the new wife has also children of her own we would have the buildup for another Dance. That's not something we want at the end. We want some sense of lasting stability and peace. Dany sort of pulling off a Elizabeth I or Victoria after the death of her beloved Jon is more believable than Jon doing to the same thing.

A really good way to give us a glimpse in the future would be to have Maester Yandel - at the age of eighty or ninety - looking back at the lives of the characters of the series, telling us what they did and how they died if they are no longer alive. One would really want to know somebody like Arya does in her thirties or how many (great)-grandchildren Daenerys is going to have.

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34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In addition, he is about as well prepared to sit a real throne as Robert Baratheon was. Nobody groomed him for a crown, and waging and winning a war for the survival of mankind isn't the same as excelling at mundane politics. How bad Dany might be at that she is infinitely better than Jon at that kind of thing simply because she actually dealt with a large court and ruled a vast city.

I don't think comparing their bona fides for rule are as clear cut as you say.  Jon may not have been groomed to rule, but he was raised by and among the house of a Lord Paramount, educated and trained as a noble.  And however you feel about his tenure as Lord Commander or Sam's electoral machinations, the fact is he inspired a lot of men to follow his leadership at a very young age.  In comparison, Dany was raised on the run in a foreign land.  The experience in Meereen is invaluable - and Dany herself has certainly inspired many followers as well - but I think up to this point it's pretty much a wash.

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If the Lannisters were cut down in size during the wars Tyrion should stand as good a chance as ending up in charge of things as Jon might. I mean, people at least know who Tyrion Lannister is right now. Pretty much no one cares about Jon Snow as of yet.

Tyrion was still a twisted little demon monkey before the kin or kingslaying.  This is what I meant by not finding it plausible the world is going to change that much; the stigma of dwarfism isn't going to go away over(the Long)night.  I think the fact people know Tyrion much more so than Jon actually works to the former's detriment.  

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, if he and Dany have a child and then the new wife has also children of her own we would have the buildup for another Dance. That's not something we want at the end.

I'm not clear how this would be different if Dany remarried and had children with a new husband.

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany sort of pulling off a Elizabeth I or Victoria after the death of her beloved Jon is more believable than Jon doing to the same thing.

Good point.

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A really good way to give us a glimpse in the future would be to have Maester Yandel - at the age of eighty or ninety - looking back at the lives of the characters of the series, telling us what they did and how they died if they are no longer alive.

Great idea for an epilogue chapter or something.

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4 hours ago, Faint said:

The last episode pretty much confirmed that Daenerys is immune up until she gives birth.

As for Sansa, as I noted before, they have at most four episodes of plot development before the big battle, so I doubt there is sufficient time to develop any romantic angle relating to her character.

I am more interested in how the Theon and Arya arc will play out. Does Theon hijack the Golden Company or does he just save his sister?

If you guys have read the spoilers you know that . . . 

  Hide contents

Cersei was supposed to have a miscarriage in the last episode, which they took out for some reason.  Obviously she cannot give birth because of the prophecy, so it looks like they simple moved this to next season. 

Given that, I do think a marriage with Euron is in the cards, since Cersei has nothing left. 

There is also this from The Winds of Winter

  Hide contents

The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the long-ships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed.

 

Even after reading the leaks, I was still half-expecting them to kill off Sansa. Now that she's still alive, I'm not sure she's going to do much next season. I think she'll be presiding over refugees at Winterfell during the battle, but I doubt that will get much screen time. I think at this point they're basically keeping her around so that there's someone to rule the North after the White Walkers are defeated. It also wouldn't surprise me if she ended up raising baby Jonerys, should both the parents die, and end up re-married to Tyrion in order to unite their houses. I agree that there won't really be time for a romantic relationship, which is a bit of a shame, since we had to sit through seven seasons of her being preyed on by various sociopaths.

As for Euron marrying Cersei in the books, I think the line about dwarves performing for them is even better evidence, since we know that Cersei has a bit of an obsession with dwarves right now. 

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13 hours ago, Newstar said:

The multiple mentions of Dany getting hit by an arrow are troubling, given that the far greater and more obvious threat to Dany would be getting thrown off or crushed by an injured Drogon. In the DOTD, I think the riders died when they were thrown off or when their dragons crashed.

On the other hand, if Dany does get knocked up, it seems likely that she'll live long enough to carry the child to term, which means she's probably safe for Season 8 unless there's a time jump.

I don't think D&D hate SanSan so much as GRRM didn't tell them Sandor's endgame and/or told them that Sansa's endgame doesn't include Sandor, so they may have figured "Why bother?"

I only remember it being mentioned twice, or where there's more instances? 

Also, it seemed to me they were alluding to the arrows shot at her in the Firld of Fire 2.0.  Which coincidentally was a parallel to when the arrows where shot at Jon in the Battle of the Bastards and they all missed.  

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49 minutes ago, MoIaF said:

I only remember it being mentioned twice, or where there's more instances? 

Also, it seemed to me they were alluding to the arrows shot at her in the Firld of Fire 2.0.  Which coincidentally was a parallel to when the arrows where shot at Jon in the Battle of the Bastards and they all missed.  

Missandei mentioned it in episode 3, when Dany says she wants to go after Euron herself.  Tyrion in episode 6, when discussing the line of succession.  Jorah in episode 7, when he says anyone in the North could take it upon themselves to kill her.  Although I think Jorah says "crossbow" not arrow, but still.  So 3 instances that I can recall.    

The number of times they brought it up worries me, especially after the way Ygritte died.   

Edited by Ser Wun Wun

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2 hours ago, Ser Wun Wun said:

That I know of, there was Missandei mentioning it in episode 3, when Dany says she wants to go after Euron herself.  Tyrion in episode 6, when discussing the line of succession.  Jorah in episode 7, when he says anyone in the North could take it upon themselves to kill her.  Although I think Jorah says "crossbow" not arrow, but still.  

The number of times they brought it up worries me, especially after the way Ygritte died.   

The Missandei bit was definite foreshadowing for the Field of Fire 2.0 

I went back to listen to to what Tyrion said to Dany in episode 6, to me this was more related to the banging us over the head narrative they had all season about Dany continuing her legacy and skmehow selecting/producing a successor, more than anything else. i.e. If she wants to create a lasting difference than she'll needs a legacy. I think this might indicate she'll be more cautious once she finds out she's pregnant. 

I would find it repetitive for Dany to die the same way as Ygritte and in the books I don't see anything indicating she'll die that way.  

ETA: Jon has gotten hit by arrows and him and Dany parallel each other so much that she might get hit as well. And as I noted above this might make her reticent to fight if she finds out she's pregnant. 

Edited by MoIaF

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10 hours ago, dmc515 said:

(...)

Well, yes, I think Tyrion being a part of such a rebuilding phase would be indispensable for precisely the reasons you mention.  However... For me, I just don't find it realistic that the world will have changed enough to accept Tyrion as (at least functionally) the king.  I apologize for not providing a more arguable basis for my stance here, it's just how I feel.

(...)

I think BoB gives the answer to Tyrion's acceptability as a King:

9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

(...) It also wouldn't surprise me if she [Sansa] ended up raising baby Jonerys, should both the parents die, and end up re-married to Tyrion in order to unite their houses. I agree that there won't really be time for a romantic relationship, which is a bit of a shame, since we had to sit through seven seasons of her being preyed on by various sociopaths.

(...)

And if AJT is true, this political alliance would still very much be of Ice and Fire. And Sansa would be the YMBQ, not Dany (who cannot really fulfill the prophecy if she dies...) and ironically would thus achieve Littlefinger's ambition.

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9 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

And if AJT is true, this political alliance would still very much be of Ice and Fire. And Sansa would be the YMBQ, not Dany (who cannot really fulfill the prophecy if she dies...) and ironically would thus achieve Littlefinger's ambition.

Tyrion-Sansa is not my cup of tea.  Even as they grew to understand each other, they never grew to even like each other.  Feel like if that was the endgame Martin would have given us something, anything, to latch onto there.

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1 hour ago, dmc515 said:

Tyrion-Sansa is not my cup of tea.  Even as they grew to understand each other, they never grew to even like each other.  Feel like if that was the endgame Martin would have given us something, anything, to latch onto there.

Eh, the GRRM-written episodes 3x07 and 4x02 have a lot of Tyrion/Sansa stuff. GRRM even made sure to include a Tyrion/Sansa scene in 2x09, even though God knows what else was cut. The show has also played up Tyrion and Sansa's relationship to the point where Tyrion is the only non-relative male Sansa has anything nice to say about. In the show, they certainly don't like-like each other, but all indications are that they like and appreciate each other: Tyrion asks after Sansa and praises her intelligence, Sansa insists that Tyrion was always kind to her and is different from the other Lannisters. They seem positioned to be at least good friends in Season 8, even if that's all that comes of it, and that would probably be good for both of them: Sansa would appreciate conversation with someone who can appreciate her political insight (as opposed to ignoring her like Jon), and Tyrion would benefit from being friends with a woman (something he's never managed before).

I doubt marriage is in the cards for either of them, much less to each other, but it's not true that there's nothing in the show or the books to support that outcome.

Edited by Newstar

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Well, GRRM has only married them already... How's that for a hint? And despite what we hear here and there they still are. No proper annulment was ever granted by a higher Septon unlike, say, Rhaegar and Elia... And in the books Sansa is not the one marrying Ramsay...

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12 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

Well, GRRM has only married them already... How's that for a hint? And despite what we hear here and there they still are. No proper annulment was ever granted by a higher Septon unlike, say, Rhaegar and Elia... And in the books Sansa is not the one marrying Ramsay...

In the show, annulment is defined as a husband setting aside his "lawful wife." In the show universe, Sansa was never Tyrion's lawful wife since they never consummated the marriage.

The book universe has different rules about annulment, but the marriage was undone in the show, so there's no reason to believe it won't be undone in the books. They could still remarry, of course, but that's not likely.

Edited by Newstar

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4 minutes ago, Newstar said:

In the show, annulment is defined as a husband setting aside his "lawful wife." In the show universe, Sansa was never Tyrion's lawful wife since they never consummated the marriage.

The book universe has different rules about annulment, but the marriage was undone in the show, so there's no reason to believe it won't be undone in the books. They could still remarry, of course, but that's not likely.

No, it was not. When? How?

EDIT: And consummation of a marriage does not make it lawful (the religious and legal witnesses do), it just makes it more difficult to annul...

Edited by Jo Maltese
Amplification

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5 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

No, it was not. When? How?

Show universe: consummation, er, "completes" the marriage. No consummation, the marriage is automatically void. As LF says, because the marriage was unconsummated, by law Sansa is no one's wife (and no one questions this statement or the validity of Ramsay and Sansa's marriage). Tyrion and Sansa are not married.

Book universe: non-consummation renders the marriage voidable, but it doesn't void it automatically. Thus Tywin warns Tyrion that an unconsummated marriage can be set aside by the High Septon. Tyrion and Sansa are married until their marriage is annulled.

Now, there is a possible argument that if somehow Tyrion and Sansa have sex in the show, the original marriage will become valid and they don't need to remarry, since they will have "completed" that marriage through consummation, but that doesn't make them any more married until that happens.

Edited by Newstar

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2 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Show universe: consummation, er, "completes" the marriage. No consummation, the marriage is automatically void. As LF says, because the marriage was unconsummated, by law Sansa is no one's wife (and no one questions this statement or the validity of Ramsay and Sansa's marriage). Tyrion and Sansa are not married.

Book universe: non-consummation renders the marriage voidable, but it doesn't void it automatically. Thus Tywin warns Tyrion that an unconsummated marriage can be set aside by the High Septon. Tyrion and Sansa are married until their marriage is annulled.

Now, there is a possible argument that if somehow Tyrion and Sansa have sex in the show, the original marriage will become valid and they don't need to remarry, since they will have "completed" that marriage through consummation, but that doesn't make them any more married until that happens.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree I guess.

My point is that only the second paragraph is true, both in the show and in the books:

1. A statement by LF is usually BS...

2. No one around Ramsay questionned his actions without painful consequences...

3. ... And actually Tyrion and Jon do question it IIRC in the beginning of the season 7 - which for me is another hint of this marriage to be still important to the end game ;

4. Sansa's and Ramsay's wedding was a "Northern One", so no Septon was ever involved in discussing the legal aspects of the first one.

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1 minute ago, Jo Maltese said:

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree I guess.

My point is that only the second paragraph is true, both in the show and in the books:

1. A statement by LF is usually BS...

2. No one around Ramsay questionned his actions without painful consequences...

3. ... And actually Tyrion and Jon do question it IIRC in the beginning of the season 7 - which for me is another hint of this marriage to be still important to the end game ;

4. Sansa's and Ramsay's wedding was a "Northern One", so no Septon was ever involved in discussing the legal aspects of the first one.

We'll likely get clarification in Season 8, with the inevitable Tyrion/Sansa meeting that seems to be on its way (with Tyrion, Jon and Dany all headed to Winterfell). I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion straight-up wondered whether he and Sansa are still married.

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You got it: if Tyrion wonders about it, then it is certainly not a dead cert situation, is it? Now, as season 8 is the last one, I do hope as well we will get plenty of clarifications! ^_^

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I cannot imagine Sansa and Tyrion to be romantically involved. Sansa still is princess-style and despises the dwarf; she is the victim of abuse and rape by Ramsay Bolton. It is much more credibly that Sansa will not be center of any romance in the last season.

There was a very prominent scene where Tyrion discussed the succession of the Iron throne in case Daenerys would become queen and then die. Also Daenerys' fertility was mentioned quite a lot. The prophecy of the witch could have been a trick. Maybe Daenerys conceives a child. If so, she would need to survive and Jon probably sacrifice himself for the victory over the White Walkers. It would make sense if the Targaryen dynasty would not end and Jon/Daenery are both Targaryens, i.e. the last chance to do keep the dynasty alive. Jon as "happy king ever after" is difficult to imagine and to simply an ending, I am afraid.

 

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