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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

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29 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

I cannot imagine Sansa and Tyrion to be romantically involved. Sansa still is princess-style and despises the dwarf

Sansa doesn't despise Tyrion in the books or in the show. She likes him well enough, probably as much as Jon likes Tyrion, she just doesn't want to be married to him. To be fair, I don't think Tyrion particularly wants to be married to Sansa, either.

Edited by Newstar

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2 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree I guess.

My point is that only the second paragraph is true, both in the show and in the books:

1. A statement by LF is usually BS...

2. No one around Ramsay questionned his actions without painful consequences...

3. ... And actually Tyrion and Jon do question it IIRC in the beginning of the season 7 - which for me is another hint of this marriage to be still important to the end game ;

4. Sansa's and Ramsay's wedding was a "Northern One", so no Septon was ever involved in discussing the legal aspects of the first one.

 

2 hours ago, Newstar said:

We'll likely get clarification in Season 8, with the inevitable Tyrion/Sansa meeting that seems to be on its way (with Tyrion, Jon and Dany all headed to Winterfell). I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion straight-up wondered whether he and Sansa are still married.

My recollection of what was said on the show is more consistent with Newstar's position. I seem to recall them stating that Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was void -- and Sansa seems to act as though she does not consider herself to have had a valid marriage to Tyrion. I agree that it makes no sense, as what is the time limit on failing to consummate before the marriage is void? One day -- one week -- one month? The only answer that might make the issue make sense is the right to marry someone else -- so once Sansa married Ramsey (irrelevant that it is a northern marriage as the south recognizes those marriages as real marriages), maybe that voided her unconsummated marriage to Tyrion. Perhaps that is the rule that the show is going with for purposes of avoiding Sansa engaging in bigamy (which I think D&D want to avoid).

I have really gotten the impression that the show is taking the position that Sansa is not considered to be married to Tyrion and ignoring any logical flaw. Either way, we probably will get clarification in Season 8 -- especially if JM is correct. If the topic, however, never gets mentioned again at all in S8, then I think we will be able can conclude that Newstar was correct.

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25 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

But the show also made a point on linking an annulment with an official record (R+L) IMHO. Wait and see...

Well, the show is not overly concerned with complete internal consistency. So any apparent conflict can be hand-waived BUT I actually think they could invent a plausible way to explain this apparent inconsistency. Rhaegar and Elia had children -- so their marriage was consummated. A consummated marriage needs an "official" act from a Septon to be undone and so there needs to be some evidence of this official act. But an unconsummated marriage can be undone by one of the individuals marrying someone else and consummating that marriage -- the only official act necessary is the second marriage (and no one questions whether Sansa married Ramsey).

Now if you are indicating that you think they emphasized the Rhaegar/Elia annulment needing "official" action specifically to foreshadow that Sansa and Tyrion are still marriage -- that is possible but I think they had plenty of independent reasons to want to emphasize that point. Specifically, the main reason that has nothing to do with Sansa or Tyrion is the need for D&D to make Jon the legit heir to House Targ. Bran does a somewhat awkward voice over at the end of the show in which he lays out how Jon is the real heir to the throne. D&D are hammering the audience with the importance of the revelation that Jon and not Dany is the true Targ heir (that some viewers believe Dany is still the true heir is irrelevant -- D&D are taking the position, and want the audience to accept, that Jon is the true heir).

For whatever reason, D&D did not want to go the bigamy route with Rhaegar (as I believe GRRM is going with). We can speculate all day about why they chose to use annulment rather than bigamy, but I suspect they did not want any complication with the audience not considering the marriage to Lyanna to be legit and never bothering to lay the groundwork for Targ polygamy rules. So if Jon needs to be seen by the audience as the "real" heir to the throne rather than Dany -- then the marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna needs to be clearly a legit marriage -- which requires clear evidence of an annulment for Rhaegar and Elia.

Thus there needed to be "official" records to demonstrate the existence of the annulment (whereas no official record is needed to prove non-consummation as no one is questioning that issue and both Sansa and Tyrion would admit, if asked, that the marriage was not consummated). The development of the "official" record also gave Sam something to contribute to the cause (as they easily could have had Bran figure all this out without Sam if they wanted to write it that way). So the official record was a way to have no one be able to question the legitimacy of the marriage and to give Sam something important to do this season.

So, in sum, there is a reason why Rhaegar needed formal action and Sansa would not -- and the show does not really get concerned about consistency in any event. The show has fairly strongly implied that Sansa does not believe she has a continuing marriage to Tyrion. And the focus on the "official" record of annulment was necessary to the plot that D&D were developing for Jon to be the true heir (clear evidence and something for Sam to do) without the need for this emphasis to have anything to do with Sansa and Tyrion.

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I don't really know that it matters either way. If D&D are going to have Sansa and Tyrion get back together, the characters will either decide they're still married or remarry. If not, they'll remain unmarried and no more will be said on the subject.

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2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Sansa cannot imagine to be intimate with a dwarf. Sansa wants "pretty" men.

I think Sansa wants a real, full sized man who will not abuse her.  The IMP is a Lannister and was basically her Warden who at some point was going to put a LANNISTER heir to Winterfell in her whether she liked it or not. The Hound is the man of her dreams in the book. On the show, he is headed to Winterfell. It also fits for the continuation of House Stark if Bran does not get out of his funk. Sandor is not exactly fond of the "Clegane" name. So, pending they survive/  a future. I could see him taking the name and them starting a new. The original kings of Winter/Starks were tall, strong and hard men. They had to be. The Hound fits.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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5 hours ago, Newstar said:

Eh, the GRRM-written episodes 3x07 and 4x02 have a lot of Tyrion/Sansa stuff. GRRM even made sure to include a Tyrion/Sansa scene in 2x09, even though God knows what else was cut. The show has also played up Tyrion and Sansa's relationship to the point where Tyrion is the only non-relative male Sansa has anything nice to say about. In the show, they certainly don't like-like each other, but all indications are that they like and appreciate each other

Yeah I was solely referring to the books in that instance, sorry didn't clarify.  In the show they certainly do grow to like each other, even somewhat admire each other, I'd argue.  Hadn't thought about looking specifically at the episodes Martin wrote.  Interesting.

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37 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I think Sansa wants a real, full sized man who will not abuse her. 

TV Sansa doesn't want any man at this point, and who could blame her? That's very unlikely to change within the span of six episodes.

 

Quote

On the show, he is headed to Winterfell. It also fits for the continuation of House Stark if Bran does not get out of his funk. Sandor is not exactly fond of the "Clegane" name. So, pending they survive/  a future. I could see him taking the name and them starting a new. The original kings of Winter/Starks were tall, strong and hard men. They had to be. The Hound fits.

Nah. The show has all but ruled out SanSan. 

 

14 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah I was solely referring to the books in that instance, sorry didn't clarify.  In the show they certainly do grow to like each other, even somewhat admire each other, I'd argue.  Hadn't thought about looking specifically at the episodes Martin wrote.  Interesting.

I'd argue that Book Sansa's view of Tyrion is pretty much the same as TV Sansa's: appreciates his kindness, but she has no inclination to be married to him (unless the alternative is someone like Sweetrobin). It's TV Tyrion and Book Tyrion's views of Sansa diverge: TV Tyrion thinks well of her and doesn't hold the PW against her, Book Tyrion is salty as hell about the fact that she framed him for murder and left him to die.

Edited by Newstar

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27 minutes ago, Newstar said:

TV Sansa doesn't want any man at this point, and who could blame her? That's very unlikely to change within the span of six episodes.

 

Nah. The show has all but ruled out SanSan. 

 

I'd argue that Book Sansa's view of Tyrion is pretty much the same as TV Sansa's: appreciates his kindness, but she has no inclination to be married to him (unless the alternative is someone like Sweetrobin). It's TV Tyrion and Book Tyrion's views of Sansa diverge: TV Tyrion thinks well of her and doesn't hold the PW against her, Book Tyrion is salty as hell about the fact that she framed him for murder and left him to die.

Nope.

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1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Well, the show is not overly concerned with complete internal consistency. So any apparent conflict can be hand-waived BUT I actually think they could invent a plausible way to explain this apparent inconsistency. Rhaegar and Elia had children -- so their marriage was consummated. A consummated marriage needs an "official" act from a Septon to be undone and so there needs to be some evidence of this official act. But an unconsummated marriage can be undone by one of the individuals marrying someone else and consummating that marriage -- the only official act necessary is the second marriage (and no one questions whether Sansa married Ramsey).

Now if you are indicating that you think they emphasized the Rhaegar/Elia annulment needing "official" action specifically to foreshadow that Sansa and Tyrion are still marriage -- that is possible but I think they had plenty of independent reasons to want to emphasize that point. Specifically, the main reason that has nothing to do with Sansa or Tyrion is the need for D&D to make Jon the legit heir to House Targ. Bran does a somewhat awkward voice over at the end of the show in which he lays out how Jon is the real heir to the throne. D&D are hammering the audience with the importance of the revelation that Jon and not Dany is the true Targ heir (that some viewers believe Dany is still the true heir is irrelevant -- D&D are taking the position, and want the audience to accept, that Jon is the true heir).

For whatever reason, D&D did not want to go the bigamy route with Rhaegar (as I believe GRRM is going with). We can speculate all day about why they chose to use annulment rather than bigamy, but I suspect they did not want any complication with the audience not considering the marriage to Lyanna to be legit and never bothering to lay the groundwork for Targ polygamy rules. So if Jon needs to be seen by the audience as the "real" heir to the throne rather than Dany -- then the marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna needs to be clearly a legit marriage -- which requires clear evidence of an annulment for Rhaegar and Elia.

Thus there needed to be "official" records to demonstrate the existence of the annulment (whereas no official record is needed to prove non-consummation as no one is questioning that issue and both Sansa and Tyrion would admit, if asked, that the marriage was not consummated). The development of the "official" record also gave Sam something to contribute to the cause (as they easily could have had Bran figure all this out without Sam if they wanted to write it that way). So the official record was a way to have no one be able to question the legitimacy of the marriage and to give Sam something important to do this season.

So, in sum, there is a reason why Rhaegar needed formal action and Sansa would not -- and the show does not really get concerned about consistency in any event. The show has fairly strongly implied that Sansa does not believe she has a continuing marriage to Tyrion. And the focus on the "official" record of annulment was necessary to the plot that D&D were developing for Jon to be the true heir (clear evidence and something for Sam to do) without the need for this emphasis to have anything to do with Sansa and Tyrion.

I get all this my friend, and I mostly agree, but I think you are bending the facts towards what you think D&D want to convey - quite surprising from you compared how you discuss the books. 

Point is, RamsAy never gave a shit for any legal aspect / social acceptability of his actions, unlike Rhaegar... Or Tyrion for that matter. And Sansa as well, now that she has become independant and a political "maestress". 

And clearly, if one wedding is void and unlawful, it's the one with Ramsay, more than the one with Tyrion. Think of them this way: if Sansa had to chose one marriage against the other, which one would she take? Granted, not very relevant now that Ramsay's dead... But still.

And Tyrion... By saying to Jon that he does not consider his wedding very valid because of "unconsummation", it seems to me that therefore it still is in a strict legal point of view... And if something is left very much open in the show it's Tyrion's stance in the near future! What has really happened between him and Cersei? What does his staring (and listening) at Dany's cabin door really mean?

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20 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Nope.

LOL

10 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

...

Again, I really don't see that the validity of their marriage is relevant. If it turns out that Sansa and Tyrion's marriage is binding until properly annulled, that won't matter unless they actually want to be married. And if it turns out that their marriage is void for non-consummation, that won't matter if they decide they want to be married, since they can just get remarried. Who's going to force them to stay married if they don't want to be? Who's going to stop them from remarrying in the face of a void previous marriage if it's what they want? Jon has already made it clear that he considers Sansa and Tyrion's marriage to be none of his business.

...Of course, with S8 being the final season, it's possible that one of them could die and end all ambiguity whatsoever. The status of their marriage hardly matters if one or both are doomed.

Edited by Newstar

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It would be an awful lot to ask of the Northern lords to accept Tyrion Lannister as the Lord of Winterfell at this stage of the game. If Bran were able to fill that role, Sansa could conceivably remarry/be married to Tyrion, but on the show that's pretty much ruled out.

This is putting aside whether either of them would want that anyway. I don't think Sansa is his type, neither show nor book. As for her tastes, he's only her type on the show, since show Sansa has probably come to appreciate strength of character over beauty, and show Tyrion is a saint as we know.

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37 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

I get all this my friend, and I mostly agree, but I think you are bending the facts towards what you think D&D want to convey - quite surprising from you compared how you discuss the books. 

Point is, RamsAy never gave a shit for any legal aspect / social acceptability of his actions, unlike Rhaegar... Or Tyrion for that matter. And Sansa as well, now that she has become independant and a political "maestress". 

And clearly, if one wedding is void and unlawful, it's the one with Ramsay, more than the one with Tyrion. Think of them this way: if Sansa had to chose one marriage against the other, which one would she take? Granted, not very relevant now that Ramsay's dead... But still.

And Tyrion... By saying to Jon that he does not consider his wedding very valid because of "unconsummation", it seems to me that therefore it still is in a strict legal point of view... And if something is left very much open in the show it's Tyrion's stance in the near future! What has really happened between him and Cersei? What does his staring (and listening) at Dany's cabin door really mean?

I tend to evaluate the show a bit differently than the books because D&D seem to take a different approach to certain details than GRRM. GRRM tries his best to retain all internal consistent logic. He tries hard not to have to retcon any of the information he had in prior books, and he tries to set down rules in a way that are consistently and logically applied (or not consistently applied where appropriate -- as he tries to make clear that succession rules are not always subject to consistent rules). D&D do not appear to be so constrained.

D&D, on the other hand, are just trying to tell an entertaining story -- they are not as obsessed with logic and internal consistency. They added the marriage of Sansa to Ramsey, which certainly will not be in the books. And unlike in the books, where Sansa might be married off to Harry the Heir under an alias, Sansa's true identity was known to all involved in the marriage to Ramsey. So sure, D&D could have gone with the approach that no one -- not Sansa, not LF, not any of the Northern Lords who were part of the Bolton contingent -- cared about her prior marriage to Tyrion (which also was common knowledge). But based on my viewing, D&D do not seem to have gone that way (as I think they considered that to be a bigger stretch than pretending that the unconsummated marriage could just be eliminated easily and that Sansa would not have agreed to the marriage if she considered it to be bigamy). Instead they seem to have made the convenient "loophole" that the marriage to Tyrion was voidable because never consummated, and therefore the marriage to Ramsey was not bigamy by Sansa -- but rather voided the unconsummated marriage to Tyrion. Based on my observation of how D&D are resolving the conflicts of coherence that many of their changes to the story create -- this approach seems consistent with how D&D handle these type of issues -- and seems to be consistent with how the characters have talked about Sansa's marriages. 

Of course, unlike the books, I don't have a search engine to try to find quotes from the show. So maybe I am misremembering what I saw -- entirely possible. If you have pulled together scenes that you recall that suggest that characters in the show believe that Sansa would be considered to have remained married to Tyrion, I certainly would consider modifying my view. All I can go by is what I remember happening on the show (as I noted, I am limited in this regard to my recollection or the reporting of others) -- and how it appears that D&D are constructing this story (which is quite different in many respect to how GRRM goes about constructing a story).

So in both cases, the books and the show, I think I analyze in a similar manner. I try to understand how the "author" constructs the story and deals with troubling details. I look at all the available clues. And I try to figure out which alternative seems more consistent with the available evidence and the approach to storytelling being employed by the relevant storyteller.

Perhaps the best example I can think of is when Arya was stabbed by the Waif -- with previews of the next week showing Arya jumping from building to building. People came up with all sorts of theories to explain how Arya could be stabbed as badly as she was -- and then be able to perform the feats she was able to perform in the previews (e.g., she had a blood bag but was not really stabbed or the person seen jumping was really the Waif wearing Arya's face). None of those theories turned out to be accurate. D&D simply ignored the impossibility of Arya being stabbed and then recovering so quickly without any "magic" to explain this miraculous recovery -- and just had Arya do what they had Arya do. After seeing illogical plot development like that over and over again (that one probably being the most egregious), I have come to interpret the show in a manner taking that approach to storytelling into account.

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Why would Jon be named Aegon after Aegon The Conqueror, and not after Aegon The Unlikely, who was the younger brother of maester Aemon? Both Aegon V and Jon Snow were very unlikely to sit the Iron Throne. Both Aegon V on the one hand, and Dany and Jon on the other hand defend, and have strong empathy, for the common people. Frankly, I don't believe the show (nor the books) will end with the restoration of yet another dynasty. It will probably be more democratic than before.

You all seem convinced that Tyrion is a Targ. I was, too, at first, but now I incline to think that he is the only true Lannister... (Certainly given the fact that most inheritors within the Lannister line have a name that begins with 'Ty' - and seen the fact that Cersei parallels Aerys's acts; not only with the wildfire, but also in punishing Ellaria Sand being chained, watching her daughter die, which is a parallel to Aerys burning Brendan Stark: "Brandon was brought into the throne room, a leather cord attached to a strangulation device was wrapped around his neck. Aerys told Brandon his father was a dead man but there was a chance to save him. A longsword was placed on the floor just out of Brandon's reach, and the more he struggled to reach it, the more the cord tightened around his throat.")

And.

Thinking of Azor Ahai: 'According to prophecy, our champion will be reborn to wake dragons from stone...' If Jon really manages to impregnate a barren Dany, wouldn't that be act of 'waking dragons'? ;-D

 

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And we were promised by Melissandre that she would return one more time, 'to die in this strange country'. Might be she acts as Jon's Nissa Nissa to forge Lightbringer, 

Furthermore, Meera most probably will return and what kind of Deus Ex Machina would Howland Reed provide?

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6 hours ago, Newstar said:

I'd argue that Book Sansa's view of Tyrion is pretty much the same as TV Sansa's: appreciates his kindness, but she has no inclination to be married to him (unless the alternative is someone like Sweetrobin). It's TV Tyrion and Book Tyrion's views of Sansa diverge: TV Tyrion thinks well of her and doesn't hold the PW against her, Book Tyrion is salty as hell about the fact that she framed him for murder and left him to die.

I disagree on Sansa's view of Tyrion being analogous in the books and the show.  In the show she shows him empathy and perhaps even affection during the Purple Wedding.  Right before she's informed of the Red Wedding she even suggests the "sheep shift" prank, opening herself up to him more than really anyone in KL other than Margaery and Shae.  And even this season, she vouches for him when Jon gets his letter.  I haven't done a re-read in awhile, but I don't recall Sansa doing anything remotely resembling these examples in the books, but perhaps I'm wrong.

The other show vs. book difference, which I don't think is a valid example because they just didn't want people to hate Sansa, is her willingness to bend down during the wedding ceremony in the show, whereas her refusal to do so truly grates on Tyrion in the books and she is upset/humiliated about it as well.

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3 hours ago, dmc515 said:

I disagree on Sansa's view of Tyrion being analogous in the books and the show.  In the show she shows him empathy and perhaps even affection during the Purple Wedding.  Right before she's informed of the Red Wedding she even suggests the "sheep shift" prank, opening herself up to him more than really anyone in KL other than Margaery and Shae.  And even this season, she vouches for him when Jon gets his letter.  I haven't done a re-read in awhile, but I don't recall Sansa doing anything remotely resembling these examples in the books, but perhaps I'm wrong.

I meant after their separation after the PW. I don't think the less awkward relationship before the Red Wedding news in the show counts, since that effectively "reset" their relationship to what it was in the books (strained, stiff, etc.). After Sansa gets out of KL in the books, she thinks a few times of Tyrion's kindness but is relieved to be free of her marriage. That's pretty much my read of TV Sansa post-KL where Tyrion is concerned as well.

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24 minutes ago, Newstar said:

After Sansa gets out of KL in the books, she thinks a few times of Tyrion's kindness but is relieved to be free of her marriage. That's pretty much my read of TV Sansa post-KL where Tyrion is concerned as well.

Oh, ok.  Sure - that certainly seems to be about the same.  Don't think it's indicative of anything though.

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9 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Oh, ok.  Sure - that certainly seems to be about the same.  Don't think it's indicative of anything though.

Oh, I agree, as I've said, but this idea that Book Sansa hates or "despises" Tyrion and TV Sansa's appreciation of Tyrion's kindness is some sort of unforgivable violation of the source material is garbage.

And although it's neither here nor there, I also agree that the wedding kneeling scene was changed so that TV Sansa wouldn't look like an asshole.

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