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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

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@Lord Varys--

I think that "basically the same ending" is not just whether the Others (or White Walkers) win or are defeated. I think that the basic manner in or mechanism by which they are defeated may be basically the same. Moreover, what has been emphasized by D&D, I seem to recall, regarding this issue, is that which of the major characters live and die will be the same -- who ends up with whom will be the same -- who rules what will be the same. The outcome for less central characters, apparently, could be quite different. But I think that the 3 remaining Starks, Jon, Tyrion, Dany, and probably Cersei and Jaime will have the same ultimate fates in both mediums.

While I agree that the details of the journey matter quite a bit, and while meaningful differences between the two (assuming GRRM ever gets all the books written) will occur, and while the show may "dumb down" certain important plot elements (like the way in which Jon first rides a dragon), many of the basic issues that have been the source of speculation and analysis on the books forums for many years will likely be "spoiled" by the show. Of course, because we can never be sure in what manner D&D deviated, we won't be sure until (and unless) the books are written, we will have a pretty good idea.

But I definitely agree that the nature of the emotional journey will be quite different between the two mediums, and in that sense, the endings will be quite different.

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10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess this then also means the show was very much a 'faithful adaptation', covering the same plots and events featuring the same characters as in the books ;-)?

Guys, the ending is irrelevant. I could have told you years ago that good will triumph over evil, that the Others will be defeated, and the heroes will restore the peace. But that is not really relevant. The relevant thing is how to get there, and what happens along the way. The details are everything.

And this tells us nothing about details. They are what makes a George R. R. Martin novel a George R. R. Martin novel and not merely a synopsis or a blurb of such a novel.

If the character isn't the same character, if the plot isn't the same plot, if events aren't the same events, then the ending isn't going to be the same ending - never mind what George says. Just because a few basic things - like names and certain settings or events on a superficial level - seem to be the same doesn't make two different things the same thing.

If you lower the goal posts and count something as 'the same ending' when the broad strokes - like, say, the Others losing rather than winning or the overall 'good guy characters' winning the day - then you are right that books and show may have 'the same ending'. But I then say that you really have a crappy standard.

I don't disagree, but someone needs to tell GRRM that too because the last two books were woeful filler.

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3 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

@Lord Varys--

I think that "basically the same ending" is not just whether the Others (or White Walkers) win or are defeated. I think that the basic manner in or mechanism by which they are defeated may be basically the same. Moreover, what has been emphasized by D&D, I seem to recall, regarding this issue, is that which of the major characters live and die will be the same -- who ends up with whom will be the same -- who rules what will be the same. The outcome for less central characters, apparently, could be quite different. But I think that the 3 remaining Starks, Jon, Tyrion, Dany, and probably Cersei and Jaime will have the same ultimate fates in both mediums.

I don't really follow what these people say, but I can say that it makes no sense to treat or pretend that these TV characters still have anything in common with their book counterparts. There is no internal consistency there. We have tons of evidence that these people just make shit up and change things as they move along - they do not plan, they do not write character arcs, or try to pretend to make sense.

If some endings will be identical then not because they got to the same points, had the same stories, etc. but simply because for entirely arbitrary reasons - like, say, the fact that a broken watch also happens to show the correct time twice a day does not allow us to conclude that the watch works.

Cersei doesn't exist as a character in the show as far as I know. Lena plays herself, not Cersei, and whatever relationship there is between her and the Jaime caricature is not even remotely the same as at is in the books. If Jaime were to kill Cersei in the show - and he were to live in the end (and this were to be the same in the books) - then this is still not even remotely the same story never mind 'the same ending'.

Quote

While I agree that the details of the journey matter quite a bit, and while meaningful differences between the two (assuming GRRM ever gets all the books written) will occur, and while the show may "dumb down" certain important plot elements (like the way in which Jon first rides a dragon), many of the basic issues that have been the source of speculation and analysis on the books forums for many years will likely be "spoiled" by the show. Of course, because we can never be sure in what manner D&D deviated, we won't be sure until (and unless) the books are written, we will have a pretty good idea.

Honestly, what's material where we have any reason to think will happen in the books that happened in the show?

I my opinion there's only a couple of things:

1. The Others will turn out to be beings created by the Children of the Forest.

2. HOLD THE DOOR will happen in some fashion.

3. Euron and Cersei will hook in some fashion (a pet theory of mine since before ADwD came out, I think ;-)).

4. Stannis will burn Shireen.

But that's more or less it.

You can see that very few things were actually drawn from George's notes or whatever by the simple fact that later seasons actually started to use AFfC (Kingsmoot, Riverlands plot), ADwD (Fry pies), and TWoW sample chapter material (the play in Braavos) rather than, you know, actually adapting crucial plots from the unwritten material. If I had wanted to rush to the ending I'd have actually done my best to adapt the unwritten material rather I apparently know about rather than using stuff that could have effectively been cut.

Addendum:

Just watched the clip. George never calls the adaptation faithful - he says it is more faithful than 97% of the more shitty adaptations of other material (and he has a point there) - which is a subtle but crucial difference. It is the kind of language I'd use in his position, too. Say something that's not a lie but still not exactly the correct or complete view you have on the thing.

Also, he never says he knows that the endings won't be that different - he just he says he believes this to be the case. Which is interesting in itself and possibly another confirmation that he doesn't really read the scripts anymore or watches the episodes (I'd not, if I were him). But then - while the book series is not finished nobody knows how close or different the endings will be. A work in progress isn't finished. And George wanting to go to point X doesn't mean he'll ever get there if the narrative structure has made a certain plot element impossible or a much better version has presented itself.

And, I mean, we do know how many arbitrary and pointless changes those guys made when there was really no reason to do so aside from giving some actor another scene and/or writing things to suit whatever great talents they thought those actors had. If that's your modus operandi then nobody should really expect them to care in the slightest about the quality and accuracy of endings.

I must say that a lot of @The Dragon Demands arguments are very convincing in this regard.

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I think we expect different things. It's true the characters on the show are different than their book counterparts, it's true that the show has basically defiled the source material, it's true that D and D may not care about anything except their faves, and it's true that regardless of the books, the show is just objectively bad atm. With all that in mind, and knowing the situation will be completely different in the books (it is a completely different experience and journey), but since the final book is still a long way from being published, I guess some of us are just happy that we will get an ending to this story after so many years... even while aknowledging that show =/ books. (I speak for myself; in my case, the show was kinda the reason I read the books, so there's always been that connection there). But I absolutely agree with what you're both saying @Lord Varys and @UnmaskedLurker

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1 hour ago, Lady Anna said:

I think we expect different things. It's true the characters on the show are different than their book counterparts, it's true that the show has basically defiled the source material, it's true that D and D may not care about anything except their faves, and it's true that regardless of the books, the show is just objectively bad atm. With all that in mind, and knowing the situation will be completely different in the books (it is a completely different experience and journey), but since the final book is still a long way from being published, I guess some of us are just happy that we will get an ending to this story after so many years... even while aknowledging that show =/ books. (I speak for myself; in my case, the show was kinda the reason I read the books, so there's always been that connection there). But I absolutely agree with what you're both saying @Lord Varys and @UnmaskedLurker

What has to be kept in mind is that the show pretty much never made changes to streamline things or to make the process of adapting easier. They did that because they wanted to show off certain actors - you can see that as early as Drogo killing Mago (which was something the Drogo actor wanted to do because he wanted to show that he was bad ass), the weird nice-Cersei scenes from season 1, and, of course, the repetitive and redundant Arya-Tywin scenes in season 2.

I mean, yeah, great actors should get screen time, but you are adapting a story and actors do play roles therein, they don't just play themselves. They fulfill a function in the depiction of the story you want to tell. Seeing them isn't the story.

The fact that this thing has pretty much nothing to do with ASoIaF since at least season 5 is made very evident by the way they film an direct things. They are obsessed with the faces of the actors and how they can emote with minimal dialogue - which is obviously nonsensical if you want to adapt this series because one of the greatest strengths of George R. R. Martin's work here is great dialogue and, of course, a complex plot involving complex characters. You cannot depict great dialogue and complex plot by having the characters be silent or make meta-jokes/talk about things that don't matter.

That way you don't even remotely tell the same story. And that they are completely incapable of doing that has become evident whenever they were inventing their own plots. The Talisa thing was badly written crap, Qarth made no sense whatsoever, etc. Once they run out of actual George material to adapt their inability (and obvious unwillingness to even try) to write good dialogues and plots has become apparent to everyone.

I mean, are there actual fans of this series as an 'independent work of art' left? Does this thing has re-watch potential once it is over and you know what's going to happen? I don't think so.

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The next sentence in that interview after he says; “I don’t think Dan and Dave’s ending is going to be that different from my ending because of the conversations we did have, but they may be on certain secondary characters, there may be differences."

 

Is this;

'I think a lot of people who say, “Oh, Dan and Dave’s ending is better than the one George gave us, it’s a good thing they changed it.” And there will be alot of people who say, “No, Dan and Dave got it wrong, George’s ending is better,” and they will all fight on the internet. There will be debate, and that’s fine. The worst thing for any work of art, be it movie or art, is to be ignored.” '

 

So I agree with @Lord Varys and @UnmaskedLurker  that broad strokes will be the same. Dany and Jon will be together, Euron and cersei, WW will be defeated, Shireen will burn, One dragon will fight against the other 2 (but not with the WW's, with a human who used the dragonbinder horn).  other than that the show is doing their own thing.

Edited by Suzanna Stormborn

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@Lord Varys--

I think perhaps the analogy to my point is that after having watched the show, reading the books will be like knowing the final score of a sporting event, and even knowing which players made the plays resulting in the scoring. But of course, knowing these facts about the sporting event is not the same as watching the event, even watching the event knowing these facts.

Nevertheless, watching the event knowing these facts is not the same as watching the event without knowing these facts. Which is why some people try very hard not to find out the final score of a sporting event they recorded and want to watch later. I, on the other hand, often enjoy the event more if I know before watching that the team I am rooting for wins -- especially if the team wins big. But either way, watching the event knowing the final score is not the same as watching without know the final score. Knowing the final score, in most people's view, is the same as knowing the ending of the game -- not the same as watching the game from beginning to end -- but the same as knowing how the game ends.

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32 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

@Lord Varys--

I think perhaps the analogy to my point is that after having watched the show, reading the books will be like knowing the final score of a sporting event, and even knowing which players made the plays resulting in the scoring. But of course, knowing these facts about the sporting event is not the same as watching the event, even watching the event knowing these facts.

Nevertheless, watching the event knowing these facts is not the same as watching the event without knowing these facts. Which is why some people try very hard not to find out the final score of a sporting event they recorded and want to watch later. I, on the other hand, often enjoy the event more if I know before watching that the team I am rooting for wins -- especially if the team wins big. But either way, watching the event knowing the final score is not the same as watching without know the final score. Knowing the final score, in most people's view, is the same as knowing the ending of the game -- not the same as watching the game from beginning to end -- but the same as knowing how the game ends.

Well, I'd say that we are watching two different games which merely pretend to be 'the same'. If they happen to have the same scores then this is an accident, not something that's planned or a sign of interconnectedness ;-).

But then - who lives or dies, for instance, is pretty much irrelevant to me, considering that the interesting part there is more how they die (i.e. all the circumstances around that, not just the fact that they die).

I mean, I could have told you how the series is going to end in broad strokes years ago. We did not need the show to confirm that Dany and Jon will hook up, did we? We also did not need the show to figure out that the Others will be defeated, that the Wall is likely to fall before that happens, or that (some of) the Stark children will regain Winterfell.

I think a game is not a very good comparison to a literature or movies/TV shows. Art has the potential to be enjoyed even if you know how it ends - just as some great sports games are, too, for some people at least. Even good detective stories have the potential for rereads because the interactions and hints dropped throughout the text make them intriguing even if you know who the culprit is. ASoIaF isn't a detective story but a much broader story.

Knowing who lives and who dies - even if true (which it might not be in all the cases; Doran Martell is not going to be killed by Ellaria Sand, for instance ;-)) - doesn't really spoil anything if the situation is completely different. Just take Stannis as an example. He is not going to fail and die in the ridiculous way we got in the show. But that he will fail and die we have known for a long time. He is not the hero of the story, after all.

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@Lord VarysWhy do you watch something you don't enjoy? We are speaking here of at least 68 hours (probably more). Why do you have the need to go on the internet to tell people that something sucks? What is the point of all of that? Who does that? 

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On 4/19/2019 at 11:08 AM, Lord Varys said:

Well, I'd say that we are watching two different games which merely pretend to be 'the same'. If they happen to have the same scores then this is an accident, not something that's planned or a sign of interconnectedness ;-).

But then - who lives or dies, for instance, is pretty much irrelevant to me, considering that the interesting part there is more how they die (i.e. all the circumstances around that, not just the fact that they die).

I mean, I could have told you how the series is going to end in broad strokes years ago. We did not need the show to confirm that Dany and Jon will hook up, did we? We also did not need the show to figure out that the Others will be defeated, that the Wall is likely to fall before that happens, or that (some of) the Stark children will regain Winterfell.

I think a game is not a very good comparison to a literature or movies/TV shows. Art has the potential to be enjoyed even if you know how it ends - just as some great sports games are, too, for some people at least. Even good detective stories have the potential for rereads because the interactions and hints dropped throughout the text make them intriguing even if you know who the culprit is. ASoIaF isn't a detective story but a much broader story.

Knowing who lives and who dies - even if true (which it might not be in all the cases; Doran Martell is not going to be killed by Ellaria Sand, for instance ;-)) - doesn't really spoil anything if the situation is completely different. Just take Stannis as an example. He is not going to fail and die in the ridiculous way we got in the show. But that he will fail and die we have known for a long time. He is not the hero of the story, after all.

Who all do you think is doomed in Ep. 3?

I am going with Brienne (even tho I hate that), Theon and Beric Dondarrion and Grey Worm (only because he was talking about the future, that usually = death)

Edited by Suzanna Stormborn

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28 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Who all do you think is doomed in Ep. 3?

I am going with Brienne (even tho I hate that), Theon and Beric Dondarrion and Grey Worm (only because he was talking about the future, that usually = death)

Don't care. Hope a lot of people die.

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Let me just add my voice to that of Lord Varys and reiterate what a shitty show this is for me as a book purist. It is beyond a travesty.

Even if one wanted to implement their incoherent plot, there are endless little examples of how it could be delivered so much better.

Anyway, one thing that seems to be a holdover from George’s work is Sam’s  line about Jon being willing to give up his throne for the sake of the kingdom so would Daenerys be willing to do the same? Or is it first and foremost about her own ambition being satisfied?

A pretty clear setup for her to first display power mad tendencies and reject Jon’s claim, and then to make some noble sacrifice as the culmination of her plot, giving up her lifelong dream( and possibly her life) to save the realm. The whole bittersweet ending and all.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Who all do you think is doomed in Ep. 3?

I am going with Brienne (even tho I hate that), Theon and Beric Dondarrion and Grey Worm (only because he was talking about the future, that usually = death)

Very likely: hound, greyworm, beric, edd

Maybe: brienne, tormund, varys, davos and gendry

The show got a fame for killing chracters and right now, there are plenty of them whose arc has been finished for like 3 seasons: Aka varys, Davos and Company...

 

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1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Who all do you think is doomed in Ep. 3?

I am going with Brienne (even tho I hate that), Theon and Beric Dondarrion and Grey Worm (only because he was talking about the future, that usually = death)

I think Brienne will live.  Also, since the show is very aware of current politics, I'd be surprised if they kill Grey Worm, since he's one of only 2 black characters.

Doomed:  Theon, Beric, Ghost, Edd, Jorah, Tormund. Depending on who is killing Cersei in the show, Arya or Jamie, Jamie could die saving Brienne or live to the final ep and kill his sister.

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I think RLJ is 100% proven on Show.

AJT has been left off I fear, but like so many other important book-storylines, it confirms nothing by being left off.

anyone else have a book theory that the show has confirmed or denied?

 

I wonder if the WW's links to their zombie followers will hold in the books, if you can kill the King White Walker and the whole army will drop dead?

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4 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Who all do you think is doomed in Ep. 3?

I am going with Brienne (even tho I hate that), Theon and Beric Dondarrion and Grey Worm (only because he was talking about the future, that usually = death)

Theon for sure, Beric probably (after reviving Bran?), Grey Worm? Not sure, I can see Misandei and him surviving somehow, just for "politically correct" reasons (gggg). I would also bet on Jaime dying (in Briennes' arms), Dolorous Ed (no!!!!!!) and maybe Gendry (baby on its way so it's ok). EDIT: And maybe the Hound, saving Sansa's life. Again.

Brienne, no way: she is now a Knight, unlike her (likely) father. She will end up as Sansa's Queensguard Commander, it is known. And if she survives, then Tormund must as well. ;) 

EDIT2 : And Ghost of course. Jon doesn't need a Direwolf anymore, he now has a Dragon (or two?).

Edited by Jô Maltese
Spelling + the Hound + Ghost

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1 minute ago, Jô Maltese said:

Theon for sure, Beric probably (after reviving Bran?), Grey Worm? Not sure, I can see Misaandei and him surviving somehow. I would also bet on Jaime (in Briennes' arms), Dolorous Ed (no!!!!!!) and maybe Gendry (baby on its way so its ok).

Brienne no way: she is now a Knight, unlike a (likely) father. She will end up as Sansa's Queensguard Commander, it is known. ;) 

Everyone is agreeing on Theon.

Seems like it's Jaime or Brienne.  I think it has to be Brienne to die out of these 2. Jaime still has to kill Cersei.

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21 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Everyone is agreeing on Theon.

Seems like it's Jaime or Brienne.  I think it has to be Brienne to die out of these 2. Jaime still has to kill Cersei.

In the books yes, definitely. in the show? I think they going for Arya with Jaime's face...

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