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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

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6 minutes ago, DMC said:

No, but you're saying you just don't care about how the content of the show affects the content of the books.  That's fine as a position, but it's also antithetical to the very point of this thread.

Oh, I can wonder whether it plays a role and all, but I don't think there is such a connection in the dragonrider department.

2 minutes ago, Jô Maltese said:

The problem with Tyrion's dragon is that they gave it to the Night King! No way this happening in the books.

People don't *own* particular dragons in the show. Tyrion certainly could still ride a dragon, but it would mean pretty much nothing.

Or do we actually assume that Jon is now the fixed rider of the dragon he rode just because he rode it? Nothing like that was implied, for all we know anybody could ride any dragon in the series.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I can wonder whether it plays a role and all, but I don't think there is such a connection in the dragonrider department.

When you always go to the default of "I think the show is just stupid (like everyone doesn't think the same), and subsequently has no bearing on the books," which is what you do, it's pretty fucking hard to have any type of meaningful conversation.

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3 minutes ago, DMC said:

When you always go to the default of "I think the show is just stupid (like everyone doesn't think the same), and subsequently has no bearing on the books," which is what you do, it's pretty fucking hard to have any type of meaningful conversation.

It is important to point out that the show and the books are different. I want people to process that even if there are parallels they don't have to mean what people may think or want to think they mean.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

It is important to point out that the show and the books are different. I want people to process that even if there are parallels they don't have to mean what people may think or want to think they mean.

I think everybody's thoroughly digested that thought, thanks, and no, I don't think that's why you post so frequently on this thread.  Like, seriously, are you posing as some progenitor of wisdom?

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9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

George does not know how the show is going to end, his new interview made that clear. He said he believes the show will have a similar ending to the book on the basis of some conversation he had with the writers years ago. If he had read the scripts or seen the episodes he would know. But he doesn't know.

Also, he never says the travesty is a faithful adaptation (he would have to be retarded to do that). He just points out that it is more faithful than a lot of movie and TV adaptations of literary content have been in the past - but if you compare awful shit to dreadful shit you really don't get very far, do you? After all, most such adaptations did not only change, rename, cut characters and plot lines but, at times, even the entire story of a book or book series.

The show is 'more faithful' than a lot of other crap simply because it includes pretty much all the main characters of the book.

Dude. Just stop. There is no point discussing this with you honesty. And also I literally meant the end. Not how you get there. Also I was discussing Tyrion. And of course GRRM is gonna say I believe. The books are not finished yet. He could change the story, if he feels he has to or wants to. But I am not interested to discuss that again. Keep your opinion. 

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is important to point out that the show and the books are different. I want people to process that even if there are parallels they don't have to mean what people may think or want to think they mean.

It's even more important to point out that we don't know by how much, because we don't have (and are highly unlikely to ever have) any book material to compare against.

For example, GRRM may have told them that Theon returns to Winterfell before the Others attack and dies saving Bran in the Godswood.  The exact manner will be different, but the general theme won't be different.  It doesn't really matter whether Theon is killed by an Other or a Wight for example.  The only thing that matters is that somehow he saves Bran.

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3 hours ago, T and A said:

Dude. Just stop. There is no point discussing this with you honesty. And also I literally meant the end. Not how you get there. Also I was discussing Tyrion. And of course GRRM is gonna say I believe. The books are not finished yet. He could change the story, if he feels he has to or wants to. But I am not interested to discuss that again. Keep your opinion. 

If you don't get the same way to the end it is not the same end. Things are only identical if they are identical, not if the resemble each other to some degree.

I'm also not discussing things with you here, I just point out for your benefit and the people who don't bothering watching the interview you were referencing that you are unintentionally or intentionally falsely representing it. George doesn't know the ending will be same as he intended to write it back when he talked with the show runners. He just believes they will do that on the basis of that conversation. And that's not a confirmation that the show runners have the intention of not changing the ending nor that did not change the ending. In light of the amount of things that George likely believed they would adapt faithfully in the years since that conversation took place one most definitely can say that his belief there is seriously misplaced.

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32 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

It's even more important to point out that we don't know by how much, because we don't have (and are highly unlikely to ever have) any book material to compare against.

For example, GRRM may have told them that Theon returns to Winterfell before the Others attack and dies saving Bran in the Godswood.  The exact manner will be different, but the general theme won't be different.  It doesn't really matter whether Theon is killed by an Other or a Wight for example.  The only thing that matters is that somehow he saves Bran.

Sure, such parallels might happen. That's not unlikely. However, that wouldn't be the same ending, it just would be a similar plot line.

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, such parallels might happen. That's not unlikely. However, that wouldn't be the same ending, it just would be a similar plot line.

Actually it would be the same outcome, therefore the same ending.  It's the journey to the ending that will differ.  To use an analogy...

You need to drive to a destination 100 miles away.  D&D take the fast route, the motorway, until 10 miles to go and then reach the destination.  GRRM takes the scenic country road route, which takes longer, has more to see etc. but then 10 miles to go joins the road at the same place D&D would have and then reaches the destination.  Both arrive at the same place at the end.

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59 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Actually it would be the same outcome, therefore the same ending.  It's the journey to the ending that will differ.  To use an analogy...

You need to drive to a destination 100 miles away.  D&D take the fast route, the motorway, until 10 miles to go and then reach the destination.  GRRM takes the scenic country road route, which takes longer, has more to see etc. but then 10 miles to go joins the road at the same place D&D would have and then reaches the destination.  Both arrive at the same place at the end.

To use a more adequate comparison.

Boromir destroys the Ring in LotR. Is that still the same ending? Or the Pequod not being sunk by Moby-Dick but by some other calamity of the oceans?

Two different stories with essentially different characters - because they are conceived and act differently - having 'the same ending' can't have the same ending in a meaningful way.

This is not a journey with a destination, it is a story.

Take an example from the show: Would you say Tywin and Shae got the same ending as in the books because they were both killed by Tyrion? I'd not say so because they changed the motivations of those characters to the point that the reasons why they were killed greatly differed. If the characters involved and their reasons for doing things are fundamentally different then it is not the same ending.

There certainly are similarities but it is not the same.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

To use a more adequate comparison.

Boromir destroys the Ring in LotR. Is that still the same ending? Or the Pequod not being sunk by Moby-Dick but by some other calamity of the oceans?

Two different stories with essentially different characters - because they are conceived and act differently - having 'the same ending' can't have the same ending in a meaningful way.

This is not a journey with a destination, it is a story.

Take an example from the show: Would you say Tywin and Shae got the same ending as in the books because they were both killed by Tyrion? I'd not say so because they changed the motivations of those characters to the point that the reasons why they were killed greatly differed. If the characters involved and their reasons for doing things are fundamentally different then it is not the same ending.

There certainly are similarities but it is not the same.

Yes, 100%.  The motivations, dialogue, even the method of the killings are irrelevant.  The fact is the events ended up being the same.  Tyrion killed his old man with a Crossbow and strangled Shae.

And I used the journey analogy because it is the one that GRRM uses himself.

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5 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Yes, 100%.  The motivations, dialogue, even the method of the killings are irrelevant.  The fact is the events ended up being the same.  Tyrion killed his old man with a Crossbow and strangled Shae.

And I used the journey analogy because it is the one that GRRM uses himself.

But then you just make a very superficial comparison, no? Sort of like pretending it is the same eating apples and pears because they both are fruits.

And I always agreed that the broad strokes of the ending would be the same - the Others will be defeated in both things just as good is likely to triumph over evil.

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Just now, Lord Varys said:

But then you just make a very superficial comparison, no? Sort of like pretending it is the same eating apples and pears because they both are fruits.

And I always agreed that the broad strokes of the ending would be the same - the Others will be defeated in both things just as good is likely to triumph over evil.

No, because in this case they are both apples.  Now if Jaime had killed Tywin with a Crossbow, that would be different.  And some time even different fruit will lead to the same outcome, because it depends on what the outcome is.

For example. the Mercy chapter versus the show.  A different character was killed, in a different manner.  But the main point of the chapter wasn't who died or how.  It was Arya not being no one.  So the same end was achieved.

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12 hours ago, DMC said:

I think everybody's thoroughly digested that thought, thanks, and no, I don't think that's why you post so frequently on this thread.  Like, seriously, are you posing as some progenitor of wisdom?

There are allways those people on the internet. But with the last line of yours, I think you nailed it :D. At some point, you have to ignore it, because those people allways have time to post and they really enjoy that. 

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Jô Maltese said:

The problem with Tyrion's dragon is that they gave it to the Night King! No way this happening in the books.

Thank you! This is all that matters wrt Tyrion Dragon riding. 

In the books many people will most likely ride Dany's other 2 dragons. On the show no one even needed to ride a dragon to get it from Meereen, this will not be the case in the books. Hell the other 2 dragons were even breathing fire on a fleet of ships in the show without riders or direction from Dany, that's impossible in the books.......To get them from Meereen it will most likely be Tyrion and BBP. Then maybe BBP will die and an Ironborn will take a dragon with a horn, and then there will be a Dance of Dragons, Ironborn vs. Dany and maybe still Tyrion idk.  then maybe the ironborn will be defeated and Dany will get the dragon back and then she'll meet Jon and he will ride the 3rd dragon.  They made Tyrion her Hand on the show, maybe he will just be her dragon-consort in the books and not be Hand(he was already hand once in the books, seems lame to do it again)

On the Show there is no Dragon Horn, no BBP, no battle of Meereen where a dragon got wounded and Tyrion saw it happen. No Victarion and (basically) no Euron.  For a while I did think that if it happened on the show it was confirming something in the books, but that is not a blanket truth. The only things that they used on the show that are directly from GRRM they have told us; e.g. Hold the Door and Burning Shireen. Other than those 2 instances I dont recall them saying that about any events since Shireen was burned---which means that most of this shit is 100% made up by D&D.  My point is that AJT is not a thing on the show, fAegon is not a thing on the show, Illyrio Mopatis is basically not a thing on the show. Arianne Martell is not a thing on the show. There have been zero mentions of Blackfyres on the show. So can we call agree they are 2 different things?

 

Whatever happens on the show or whatever any posters say on this thread, AJT is real in the books. Almost confirmed in WOIAF, and I'm not going to doubt it because D&D left it off. They are idiots.

Edited by Suzanna Stormborn

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

No, because in this case they are both apples.  Now if Jaime had killed Tywin with a Crossbow, that would be different.  And some time even different fruit will lead to the same outcome, because it depends on what the outcome is.

For example. the Mercy chapter versus the show.  A different character was killed, in a different manner.  But the main point of the chapter wasn't who died or how.  It was Arya not being no one.  So the same end was achieved.

Oh, that's just your arbitrary priority. Why is it important who does something in an adaptation and not the why or how something happens? There are famous stories where the how of a death scene (take Achilles or Siegfried, for instance) is much more important than who does it.

If they had had Jaime kill Tywin for similar or the same reason Tyrion had in the book I'd have little issues with that in such a context because it would still have been faithful to George's concept that Lord Tywin is murdered by a son he cruelly betrayed and fucked with.

I'd make the case that the crucial part of the Tyrion-Tywin story is what was cut from the show - the entire Tysha story, both the fact that Tyrion also raped her at his father's command as well as the revelation that she wasn't a whore. Tywin is not murdered by his son because he never loved his son or because he rejected him or because he humiliated him, etc., he is killed because he basically did commit one of the worst crimes you can do to your child while making said child also an accomplice in that crime.

The Mercy thing would be another case since there the story is indeed not about the role of the murdered character but rather what murdering him means for Arya.

I'm all for streamlining things and switching roles and functions to other characters if it does justice to the characters, motivations, and plots. But there is nothing of that kind of thing in the show.

Edited by Lord Varys

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9 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

AJT is real in the books.

Lol. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, folks.

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Posted (edited)

What is the point of this discussion here actually? There are two groups of people here, with irreconclilable positions. If you disagree on the fundamental basis, a discussion is worthless. It becomes just random posts.

You can have a discussion wheather storylines of the show are going to happen in the books. But you can only have this discussion, if you think that the show is including parts of the umpocoming books. You can also discuss the intensity and amount of plot elements from the show, that may happen in the books. But if you generally disagree with the idea, that the show is spoiling book elements (which you can disagree with), discussing with people who disagree on this topic is pointless. You have no basis of comparisson, since those damn books are not released yet. And the other group can not argue either, since they are just asuming that the Showrunners and GRRM are not lying. They don't know it either.

Edited by T and A

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6 hours ago, T and A said:

There are allways those people on the internet. But with the last line of yours, I think you nailed it :D. At some point, you have to ignore it, because those people allways have time to post and they really enjoy that. 

Well, I'm still wondering what you are still doing here. You always seem to start meta-discussions nobody needs to have. We don't have to justify why we discuss things the way we want, do we?

5 hours ago, T and A said:

What is the point of this discussion here actually? There are two groups of people here, with irreconclilable positions. If you disagree on the fundamental basis, a discussion is worthless. It becomes just random posts.

You can have a discussion wheather storylines of the show are going to happen in the books. But you can only have this discussion, if you think that the show is including parts of the umpocoming books. You can also discuss the intensity and amount of plot elements from the show, that may happen in the books. But if you generally disagree with the idea, that the show is spoiling book elements (which you can disagree with), discussing with people who disagree on this topic is pointless. You have no basis of comparisson, since those damn books are not released yet. And the other group can not argue either, since they are just asuming that the Showrunners and GRRM are not lying. They don't know it either.

Not sure why you want us to buy this dichotomy. It is wrong. One can discuss whether story elements from the show are part of future books while not believing that said elements are going to be part of them - by pointing out why one thinks that's the case. And that's what I'm doing. Nobody here has the rigid view that no show element since season 5 has been inspired by some book stuff - I think I pointed out Shireen, HOLD THE DOOR, the revelation about the origin of the Others (as creations of the Children) are elements that will happen in some form in the books (although most definitely not even remotely at the same point in the plot nor under the same or even similar circumstances).

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Posted (edited)
On 4/24/2019 at 8:20 AM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

The only things that they used on the show that are directly from GRRM they have told us; e.g. Hold the Door and Burning Shireen. Other than those 2 instances I dont recall them saying that about any events since Shireen was burned---which means that most of this shit is 100% made up by D&D. 

D&D indicated that Stannis burning Shireen and Hold the Door came from GRRM, but that does not mean those are the only things from GRRM that they have used on the show. They referenced those two moments in particular because those were two out of three things GRRM told them that made them go, "holy shit." David Benioff teased that the third holy shit moment "is from the very end," so mentioning all that was a way to get people speculating about the finale.

D&D don't want to do that with every single thing they include, though, especially now that it's the final season, because that would be directly spoiling the rest of Martin's stated plans for the books.

Quote

“People are talking about whether the books are going to be spoiled – and it’s really not true,” Benioff said. “So much of what we’re doing diverges from the books at this point. And while there are certain key elements that will be the same, we’re not going to talk so much about that — and I don’t think George is either. People are going to be very surprised when they read the books after the show. They’re quite divergent in so many respects for the remainder of the show.”

https://ew.com/article/2016/05/24/george-rr-martin-3-twists-game-thrones/

Quote

How much of this season is from discussing the ending with George R.R. Martin?

BENIOFF: [The concern] used to be that the books would spoil the show for people — and luckily it did not, for the most part. Now that the show is ahead of the books, it seems the show could ruin the books for people. So one thing we’ve talked to George about is that we’re not going to tell people what the differences are, so when those books come out people can experience them fresh.

WEISS: It’s kind of nice for him because — obviously through necessity we’ve pulled out ahead — the show has become so different [in recent seasons] that people will have no way knowing from watching what will or won’t appear in the books. And honestly, neither do we.

BENIOFF: We don’t. And George discovers a lot of stuff while he’s writing. I don’t think that final book is written in stone yet — it’s not written on paper yet. As George says, he’s a gardener and he’s waiting to see how those seeds blossom.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/09/game-of-thrones-season-8-showrunners-interview/

The best that anyone can do is to analyze all the available information — the content of the books and show, quotes from GRRM, D&D, and other people with inside knowledge, any other pertinent data — and then make decisions about what they think is likely to be the same between the two mediums (should the rest of the books be published), and what they think is likely to be different.

This process is no different than how people speculated about the books before the show existed: they collected relevant information — details from the books, potential clues, themes, statements GRRM made outside the series, etc. — and then made judgements about what they thought was likely to happen in the story. The show, and statements made by people involved in the show, is just another body of information to analyze and interpret.

Edited by Shmedricko

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